Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

Phoneman777 said:

and when Pagan Rome fell, the PAPAL ROMAN ANTICHRIST arose.

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And Rome wasn't pagan when it fell.

The Papal system is figuratively represented in Revelation chapter 17.

It is the harlot, a woman who once was betrothed to Christ who went astray.

She sits upon the beast of Europe, arrayed in all her wealth, and the mystery which ties her to Babylon is the abominable mother-son worship system the Roman Catholic Church gradually adopted through Papal edicts until they end up violating God's Commandments and literally pray to a pagan idol. She has prostituted herself not only to the world, but to an ancient enemy: the "Queen of Heaven." (This abominable worship system is spoken about by Isaiah.)

Rev 17:15 And he *said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

The scarlet beast of a kingdom, which is also portrayed as a dragon in Rev 16:13, is what the harlot "rides." She gets her power from it, and having picked Kings and Queens, in the end, is hated by the powers that run the beast. Today, the EU is anti-Christian. They enjoy the socialistic leanings of the popular Pope Francis, a man of the people, who is more political than spiritual, spouting off about economics and even dabbling in man-made global warming, but they use him only as it suits them; he has no real power to shape where they go. And the powers of Europe act against the Church, being spiritually dead.

Both entities, are an anathema to God. Both will be destroyed in the end. But the beast is not restraining the harlot... nor is the harlot ruling the beast.

brakelite said:

HOW BLIND ARE YOU???

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The fact is that the truth is not a matter of popular vote. That is a fallacy in argument which is used from time to time on anonymous message boards.

I agree with ATP, but that does not make our argument right, nor does it show we see things with normal vision.

I just don't agree with the Historist interpretation of Revelation being centered on the RCC.

And I do look forward to a building in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount, which John was told to measure, and those measurements can be found in Ezekiel.

Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty- two months. -- NASB

The fact in prophecy is that God reveals in Revelation 11:1-2 that a Temple will be given to the "gentiles" or "nations" and they will "trample" it underfoot - which describes the contempt with which God looks at its building and function - for one-half of the one 'seven'. That is not a coincidence as to the time. It marries with the first half of the one 'seven'.

This "Temple of God," as John reveals it from Christ, is not the Church, nor is it any one believer. It is not in Heaven; it is in Jerusalem: the Holy City.

That is a fact of Biblical prophecy.
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Looking forward, which is what a literal, futuristic view does, how then can this be?

It is our conclusion that with the covenant prevailed upon by and emanating from the little horn behind the ten kings who rule the combined nations which make up the Kingdom of the North, allows the Sanhedrin to build the Temple they desire.

And if they ever trot out the Ark of the Covenant, it would be impetus enough for Israel to seek peace on any terms... and it would necessitate the building of the Temple.

Now looking at the Jews, do not be surprised when they use less-than-honorable means to get what they want.
Look at how they built their Supreme Court building.
Using big bank money, it is filled with Masonic imagery, which is quite an anathema to God.
It displays all sorts of religious symbols which are not Biblical as well.
It has the Masonic, or Illuminati "all-seeing eye" prominently placed inside the building.
Not surprising at all, is that the Christian symbol, the Cross, is done as an outdoor walkway - and it is the only symbol that they trod up it with their feet.
(This has the same detrimental meaning as the prophecy for God's Temple in Revelation 11:1-2.)

So a Temple is built, and halfway through the one 'seven' it is occupied by the conquering King of the North, now fully revealed even to people like you, as the anti-Christ.

And then we can all stop trying to pin the tail on the donkey...
But we're going to be too busy trying not to be killed to celebrate our discovery...
And we still won't really know who the "one" was.

brakelite said:

HOW BLIND ARE YOU???

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No more blind that you believing you can lose your salvation.

brakelite said:

As to the 70th week. You know something ATP, Revelation 13, and Jesus in the gospels, warned repeatedly that the end times would be a time of deception. You know this I am sure. Remember, false Christs, false prophets...deception. So what do we have today? By far the most popular theory regarding the Antichrist is that which you espouse. I mean seriously, there have been untold book series, single tomes, movies, magazines, all with the same theme with perhaps a few slight variations. A future Antichrist coming onto the scene making a peace treaty with Israel, persecuting the church, inflicting people with a mark/RIFD/tatoo...whatever. The thing is ATP, when and if this character does appear, where on earth will be the deception when every Tom, Dick, Harry, and Gertrude will recognize him the moment he steps in front of the TV and run like crazy in the opposite direction? Doesn't it make far more sense for an entity to be already in power, the vast majority of the world already 'wondering after him', those that used to be his enemies now convinced he is a friend, all the kings and queens and presidents and prime ministers of the world grovelling at his feet, all being totally and completely deceived as to the true nature of this 'beast' they are worshiping? Oh look ATP,that is precisely what the kings and queens of the world are doing with the RCC!!! (Not to mention her former enemies the Protestants!!!!!!) And apart from only a handful of people, (3 in total as far as I am aware in this forum out of all its current members) , in the world are even mildly interested in voicing any doubts or misgivings concerning the current infatuation with the RCC. and its leader's lust for global power. HOW BLIND ARE YOU???

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I believe in Prewrath rapture and the antichrist signing peace treaty at the beginning of the 70th week, and antichrist setting up abomination of desolation in the middle of the 70th week. If you have any questions, let me know. Reading is fun...

Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewra01.JPG

1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV, Rev 6:8 NIV.
2. The third temple (the holy place) is built Exo 26:33 NIV, Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV..http://thewordonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Ezekiels-Temple-Logos.png
3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place in the holy place Exo 26:33 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Dan 11:31 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV, Rev 13:14-15 NIV.
5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
18. Jesus landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Isa 11:6-9 NIV, Isa 65:20 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Isa 65:17-25 NIV, Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.

ATP said:

Uh no. If you focus on the main topic at hand in regards to the restrainer,
we can clearly see the restrainer is holding back sin and lawlessness.
The secret power of lawlessness and the one who now holds in back are two different spirits.
Notice the "but" in the following.
Why does the devil need to be taken out of the way if he is already at work?

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


Fallen angels come from the devil Phone.

2 Pet 2:4 NIV For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.


God uses nonbelievers for all kinds of purposes. Rom 9:19-24 NIV. That doesn't turn them into believers and holy saints in one day. The reason for the restraint is so that the Antichrist will be revealed at God’s appointed time, the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 70th week.

So why would evil restrain evil from being revealed? That makes no sense whatsoever. I would think the antichrist spirit wants to deceive the saints into thinking he will never appear on the scene as a man. What do you think Phone7?


Right, evil is restraining evil from appearing in the world? Do you read the newspaper Phone or watch the news?

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God used an evil "lying spirit" to destroy evil Ahab and thus restrain the evil wrought by his hand.
God, also used evil Jehu, who refused to walk in the way of God, to kill evil Jezebel and thus accomplish the same.

It should now be clear to you that you are subjectively assigning virtue to the Restrainer that the Bible simply has not based on your flawed belief that "evil cannot restrain evil", as shown by the above examples. Again, you will never discover truth in prophetic interpretation if you continue reading the Bible subjectively.

ATP said:

The Pope could very well be the future Antichrist man who sits in the third temple,

but our brother Phone here doesn't believe in a future 70th week and an antichrist man so.....

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I might believe in a future one-man Antichrist and a future 70th Week if I were as confused about the issues as you are, ATP, but I'm not a Jesuit Futurist nor do I follow their corrupt interpretations like you, ATP. I am a PROTESTANT HISTORICIST and will never join you in your support for an eschatological interpretation by the Papal Antichrist's Jesuits when the Papacy can't even get right the most fundamental Christian doctrine of all: salvation by grace through faith alone.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

And Rome wasn't pagan when it fell.

The Papal system is figuratively represented in Revelation chapter 17.

It is the harlot, a woman who once was betrothed to Christ who went astray.

She sits upon the beast of Europe, arrayed in all her wealth, and the mystery which ties her to Babylon is the abominable mother-son worship system the Roman Catholic Church gradually adopted through Papal edicts until they end up violating God's Commandments and literally pray to a pagan idol. She has prostituted herself not only to the world, but to an ancient enemy: the "Queen of Heaven." (This abominable worship system is spoken about by Isaiah.)

Rev 17:15 And he *said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

The scarlet beast of a kingdom, which is also portrayed as a dragon in Rev 16:13, is what the harlot "rides." She gets her power from it, and having picked Kings and Queens, in the end, is hated by the powers that run the beast. Today, the EU is anti-Christian. They enjoy the socialistic leanings of the popular Pope Francis, a man of the people, who is more political than spiritual, spouting off about economics and even dabbling in man-made global warming, but they use him only as it suits them; he has no real power to shape where they go. And the powers of Europe act against the Church, being spiritually dead.

Both entities, are an anathema to God. Both will be destroyed in the end. But the beast is not restraining the harlot... nor is the harlot ruling the beast

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Though Christianity was legal when Rome fell in 476 A.D., it was "pagan Christianity" which is not Christianity at all. The Vandals destroyed "Christian" idols and statues, hence the name "vandalism". Papal Rome was just a continuation of that paganism mingled with Christianity.

A woman in prophecy represents a "church" and the Scarlet Woman riding the Ten Horned Beast is the whore Catholic Church controlling the secular power aka "the Papacy". The Pure Woman of Revelation 12 is God's faithful church which "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". (Revelation 12:17 KJV)

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Phoneman777 said:

God used an evil "lying spirit" to destroy evil Ahab and thus restrain the evil wrought by his hand.
God, also used evil Jehu, who refused to walk in the way of God, to kill evil Jezebel and thus accomplish the same.

It should now be clear to you that you are subjectively assigning virtue to the Restrainer that the Bible simply has not based on your flawed belief that "evil cannot restrain evil", as shown by the above examples. Again, you will never discover truth in prophetic interpretation if you continue reading the Bible subjectively.

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By saying the 1260, 1290, and 1335 days are in the past,
you are also saying Dan 12, Rev 11, Rev 12 and Rev 13 are past and not future.
Yeah, I don't know how to argue that. I've never come across deception like that before.

According to Protestant Historicism, the "1260", "1290", and "1335" have absolutely nothing to do with the 70 Weeks prophecy, which ended in 34 A.D. EXACTLY 70 weeks after it began with no gap.

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Phoneman777 said:

I might believe in a future one-man Antichrist and a future 70th Week if I were as confused about the issues as you are, ATP

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I wouldn't be calling others confused when you still believe you can lose your salvation....

Phoneman777 said:

I am a PROTESTANT HISTORICIST and will never join you in your support for an eschatological interpretation by the Papal Antichrist's Jesuits when the Papacy can't even get right the most fundamental Christian doctrine of all: salvation by grace through faith alone.

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Well, I'm not catholic Phone. I'm a born again christian.
You got the first part right, salvation is by grace through faith alone.
You just need to work on your testimony. Do you..have a testimony Phone?

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Phoneman777 said:

A woman in prophecy represents a "church" and the Scarlet Woman riding the Ten Horned Beast is the whore Catholic Church controlling the secular power aka "the Papacy". The Pure Woman of Revelation 12 is God's faithful church which "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". (Revelation 12:17 KJV)

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Some things to ponder. The "woman" is Israel in Rev 12...

1. Scripture says Israel is still on earth towards the end of the 1,260 days in Rev 12:6 NIV, Rev 12:14 NIV, but the church is raptured before the 1,260 days ends in Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV. The church and Israel go down two completely different paths.

2. Satan is cast down in the middle of the 70th week to set up the abomination of desolation in Matt 24:15 NIV, Rev 12:8-9 NIV, Rev 12:13 NIV. This is also where the Great Tribulation begins, and where Satan wages war against the saints Dan 7:21 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV, Rev 12:17 NIV, Rev 13:7 NIV. The first of the two beasts of Revelation 13 has the same power as the terrible fourth beast and little horn in Daniel 7. The details of the visions of the little horn of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 reveal the antichrist of Bible prophecy in the middle of the 70th week.

3. Israel is the one that flees to Judea, the wilderness in the middle of the 70th week, not the church Matt 24:15-16, Rev 12:6 NIV, Rev 12:14 NIV. The church is spread all throughout the world, and the church is not going to travel all the way across the world to meet their Jewish friends in Judea. Non believing Israel and believing saints are separate entities, and they both go down separate paths during the 70th week. Saints get raptured and Israel stays until the end of the 70th week Zech 12:10-14 NIV...

Rev 12:17 NIV Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary - the remnant of her seed—distinct in some sense from the woman herself. Satan's first effort was to root out the Christian Church, so that there should be no visible profession of Christianity. Foiled in this, he wars (Rev 11:7; 13:7) against the invisible Church, namely, "those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus" (A, B, and C omit "Christ"). These are "the remnant," or rest of her seed, as distinguished from her seed, "the man-child" (Rev 12:5), on one hand, and from mere professors on the other. The Church, in her beauty and unity (Israel at the head of Christendom, the whole forming one perfect Church), is now not manifested, but awaiting the manifestations of the sons of God at Christ's coming. Unable to destroy Christianity and the Church as a whole, Satan directs his enmity against true Christians, the elect remnant: the others he leaves unmolested.

Easyenglish Commentary - Rev 12:17 The *dragon was angry because he could not reach the woman. So, he went to fight her other children.

Christ came from the *Jews. He, the Son of God, was by birth a *Jew. Those who believed in him did not become *Jews. The children of the woman were both *Jews and those who were not *Jews. The *dragon could not hurt the *Jews. So, he attacked God’s people who were not *Jews.

God’s people will suffer terrible problems for those three and a half years. Those who believe in Jesus will suffer much. Many of them will die because they believe in Jesus. It will be a terrible time.

- ATP

ATP said:

"ATP's NON RESPONSE TO MY POST"

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ATP, you refused to respond to my post except with more convoluted reasoning which I erased. Now, please respond to the following this time or admit your flawed reasoning:

God used an evil "lying spirit" to destroy evil Ahab and thus restrain the evil wrought by his hand.
God, also used evil Jehu, who refused to walk in the way of God, to kill evil Jezebel and thus accomplish the same.

It should now be clear to you that you are subjectively assigning virtue to the Restrainer that the Bible simply has not based on your flawed belief that "evil cannot restrain evil", as shown by the above examples. Again, you will never discover truth in prophetic interpretation if you continue reading the Bible subjectively.

brakelite said:

I agree with Phoneman. The 'beast' of Revelation 13:1 is recognized by all Bible scholars as being the Antichrist. At least, those Bible scholars I know of and have read of. I have never read any alternative understanding, or an interpretation that renders the 'Antichrist' ID obsolete. Also, the 'little horn ' of Daniel 7:8 is the 'baby' version of the Revel.13:1 beast. The beast, is the little horn all grown up, so to speak.
The thing is, the 4 beasts of Daniel 7, and in particular the 4th beast from which the horn grows, are all empires. They are nations, predatory nations, who annex other nations to form the empire. So to be Biblically and prophetically consistent, (because God is consistent) the beast of Revelation 13...aka Antichrist...must also be a predatory nation forming an empire. Which is precisely what the RCC is. The fact that this nation has a spokesman (eyes of a man [of sin] speaking great things etc) is also consistent with the other beasts all of which were represented by their various kings...Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, etc.
ATP, the prophecy specifically declares that the Antichrist shall sit in the temple of God. No 'third temple', however grandiose and 'annointed ' and hailed as prophetic etc etc, will never , ever, nor could ever be in a zillion years, be deemed to be "of God". When the prophecy was written, there were 4 temples. One in heaven, one in Jerusalem, the individual believer, and the church. The one in heaven is off limits to the Antichrist. The one in Jerusalem is now destroyed, and any new one will never be God's temple. That leaves the individual or the church. One may personally allow Antichrist into his life and allow him to proclaim his deity there, but somehow this doesn't seem to be what God intended by the prophecy. But the church, that is another kettle of fish. Could the RCC/papacy stand in the Christian church and claim to be God on earth and claim to be the only Mediator between God and man and claim to forgive sin and claim....oh look ATP...this is precisely what the RCC is doing!
As to the 70th week. You know something ATP, Revelation 13, and Jesus in the gospels, warned repeatedly that the end times would be a time of deception. You know this I am sure. Remember, false Christs, false prophets...deception. So what do we have today? By far the most popular theory regarding the Antichrist is that which you espouse. I mean seriously, there have been untold book series, single tomes, movies, magazines, all with the same theme with perhaps a few slight variations. A future Antichrist coming onto the scene making a peace treaty with Israel, persecuting the church, inflicting people with a mark/RIFD/tatoo...whatever. The thing is ATP, when and if this character does appear, where on earth will be the deception when every Tom, Dick, Harry, and Gertrude will recognize him the moment he steps in front of the TV and run like crazy in the opposite direction? Doesn't it make far more sense for an entity to be already in power, the vast majority of the world already 'wondering after him', those that used to be his enemies now convinced he is a friend, all the kings and queens and presidents and prime ministers of the world grovelling at his feet, all being totally and completely deceived as to the true nature of this 'beast' they are worshiping? Oh look ATP,that is precisely what the kings and queens of the world are doing with the RCC!!! (Not to mention her former enemies the Protestants!!!!!!) And apart from only a handful of people, (3 in total as far as I am aware in this forum out of all its current members) , in the world are even mildly interested in voicing any doubts or misgivings concerning the current infatuation with the RCC. and its leader's lust for global power. HOW BLIND ARE YOU?

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Excellent analysis, bro.

Daniel refers to the "head of gold" firstly as the singular man "Nebuchadnezzer", but in his next breath as a "kingdom" by virtue of "after you shall arise another kingdom" - "another" demands an aforementioned "other", which in this case is "Babylon". This is a Biblical precedent that a kingdom may be referred to as the whole of itself OR in the singular sense of the man at its head. Daniel 7 goes on to say that a "beast" is a "kingdom".

Sadly, Jesuit Futurism demands that we ignore this Biblical eschatological precedent, as well as the fact that prophecy is highly symbolic, and insist that the beast of Revelation 13 is "one single evil man", rather than the "kingdom" which beasts are undeniably said to represent in prophecy, just as the "man of sin" must be "one single evil man" rather than a plurality of successive "men" - specifically the Popes at the head of the Papal kingdom - while they are forced to admit that this same Paul's reference to "man of God" in 2 Timothy refers to a plurality of men - not just one single man.

Again, Jesuit Futurists insist we ignore the same so that the "he" Restrainer must be a singularity, and therefore disqualifies the Roman Empire as the kingdom that ECF unanimously claim Paul spoke of as the power preventing the rise of what would become the Papal Antichrist.

Conclusion: Jesuit Futurism is established on a foundation of a denial of Biblical eschatological precedent and subjective and inconsistent reasoning, which foundation the truth has never been established.

Phoneman777 said:

ATP, you refused to respond to my post except with more convoluted reasoning which I erased. Now, please respond to the following this time or admit your flawed reasoning:

God used an evil "lying spirit" to destroy evil Ahab and thus restrain the evil wrought by his hand.
God, also used evil Jehu, who refused to walk in the way of God, to kill evil Jezebel and thus accomplish the same.

It should now be clear to you that you are subjectively assigning virtue to the Restrainer that the Bible simply has not based on your flawed belief that "evil cannot restrain evil", as shown by the above examples. Again, you will never discover truth in prophetic interpretation if you continue reading the Bible subjectively.

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I did respond. This is not proof that the restrainer is evil and in the past.
The restrainer is future, and so is Dan 12, Rev 11,12,13.
Flawed reasoning? I don't think so.
I'm not the one who thinks 1260, 1290 and 1335 days are past,
and the woman in Rev 12 is the church.

All you do is post your opinions with absolutely no scripture.
That tells me you do not know your Bible at all.
You got a lot of work to do.

Phoneman777 said:

Daniel refers to the "head of gold" firstly as the singular man "Nebuchadnezzer", but in his next breath as a "kingdom" by virtue of "after you shall arise another kingdom" - "another" demands an aforementioned "other", which in this case is "Babylon". This is a Biblical precedent that a kingdom may be referred to as the whole of itself OR in the singular sense of the man at its head. Daniel 7 goes on to say that a "beast" is a "kingdom".

Sadly, Jesuit Futurism demands that we ignore this Biblical eschatological precedent, as well as the fact that prophecy is highly symbolic, and insist that the beast of Revelation 13 is "one single evil man", rather than the "kingdom" which beasts are undeniably said to represent in prophecy, just as the "man of sin" must be "one single evil man" rather than a plurality of successive "men" - specifically the Popes at the head of the Papal kingdom - while they are forced to admit that this same Paul's reference to "man of God" in 2 Timothy refers to a plurality of men - not just one single man.

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I do agree with you that the future antichrist is a kingdom and not one person 2 John 1:7 NIV.

That still is not proof that the 70th week, the restrainer, the 1260, 1290, and 1335 is all past.

Doubt that anyone would want to take the time to read this teaching but you might learn something if you did...http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/70-weeks-of-daniel-covenant-deception/

No where in the word does it tell of an Antichrist making a covenant but the word of God is all about the covenant between Father and Son that was sealed with the blood of Christ on the Cross. Just something to think about.

It absolutely baffles me that anyone could not recognize the rock-solid incontrovertible evidence of history being the sure fulfillment of every characteristic necessary to fully identify the papal power as being the Antichrist. Meeting every single criteria down to the last detail, Rome was recognized as such long ago by nearly every reformer for 400 years. But today, we have people saying "no", history doesn't count. Ignore history, everything is still future. Rather than rely on the testimony of courageous men and women who died testifying to their convictions, and the historical facts that backed them up, these modern day clairvoyants stare into their futuristic crystal balls then take their preconceived ideas and notions to the Bible in the hope that by cherrypicking scriptures and twisting others to suit, it will somehow vindicate their prognostications.
The reformers en masse condemned the papal system as the Antichrist. The papal system then, in an attempt to redirect such adverse publicity, had its more gifted son to reinvent the entire hermeneutic the reformers used to come to truth, and today we have the result. The whole world wondering after the beast. The greatest publicity campaign in the history of mankind has thus been a resounding success.
So the Christian world is now gazing like astrologers over the horizon looking for a future warlord waging war and wreaking havoc among Christian churches, all the while chatting amiably over the back fence with the real thing. Expecting a truck to run over them from in front, they will end up being run over by a train from behind.
Consider yourselves warned.
Lu 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. This is the means by which our Lord intended prophecy to be understood. History attests to the truth.

Saint said:

No where in the word does it tell of an Antichrist making a covenant but the word of God is all about the covenant between Father and Son that was sealed with the blood of Christ on the Cross. Just something to think about.

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I disagree. The Antichrist Kingdom will make a "covenant of death" and then set up an abomination of desolation in the third temple...

Peace Treaty

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Isa 28:15 NIV You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death (Rev 6:8 NIV), with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place."

Isa 57:8-9 NIV Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love (Rev 6:8 NIV), and you looked with lust on their naked bodies. 9You went to Moleka with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the very realm of the dead!

Rev 6:2 NIV I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Rev 6:8 NIV I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

The Abomination of Desolation

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

brakelite said:

It absolutely baffles me that anyone could not recognize the rock-solid incontrovertible evidence of history being the sure fulfillment of every characteristic necessary to fully identify the papal power as being the Antichrist.

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Well have to wait and see I guess. I don't like to assume. They're definitely on the top 2 list of evil kingdoms, that's for sure.

Why did Paul refer to the Antichrist Kingdom as "he" or the "man" of lawlessness?

Didn't say there wasn't or will be an Antichrist, just said the word doesn't say he will make a covnenat with anyone. The only reference that people refer to is Daniel 9:27 which is misunderstood if one doesn't understands the New Covenant that Christ cut with His blood on the cross. If that Eternal Covenant isn't understood then there is confusion.