entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

justbyfaith said:

But it should be clear that even though they have this attitude, the Bible defines them as being perfect.

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You have quoted a lot of verses but they all do not add up to what you are promoting (a Wesleyan doctrine). In fact some of them mean something other that who you think.

The fact of the matter is that there is no Christian who is still on earth who can claim that he or she is sinlessly perfect. Those who do so simply deceive themselves.

That does not mean that Christians can do whatever they please. But it does mean that they should be honest with themselves before God. All the exhortations in the epistles are for Christians to faithfully walk in the Spirit and mortify the flesh. Which means that the old Adamic nature is always there.

Even Wesley, who was, I believe a very devote person, far beyond most of us, and who taught sanctification, did not define is as absolute perfection.
"
inward sanctification begins “in the moment a man is justified… From that time a believer gradually dies to sin, and grows in grace” (Wesley ch17).
"
sin is only suspended in them (those who have an instantaneous experience); it is not destroyed… They are all love today; and take no thought for the morrow” (Wesley ch26, italics mine). Translated in today’s common language this would mean that although a person might be entirely sanctified the chance that they will “lose it” is present. "

in his Plain Account of Christian Perfection Wesley remarks that there is no account of “any general state described in Scripture, from which a man cannot draw back to sin” (Wesley ch25). He speaks of perfection as sinlessness only available in heaven.

Thus, the presence of sin cannot and should not be used as a valid measurement for the presence of sanctification. This, consequently leads to asking the question What then is a valid measurement? Or in other words – what is the essence of sanctification according to John Wesley?

“It is ‘perfect love’ (1 John 4:18). This is the essence of it” (Wesley ch26)

Now, my comments: I grew up under Wesley's doctrine, but it was often warped into following a certain standard of dress and behavior and love was sometimes secondary. The older I get the more I see that the very people who claimed entire santification often have deep sins, but covered them with " proper" behavior. At the same time, some do love nearly perfectly, and ironically, some of those are people who are not what I would call doctrinally sound. Some are. .. and so it goes. We are not what we will be. But we are more than we once we're.

WONDERFUL ! (A few years ago I read it , or parts of it) (It was available to read online)

Renniks said:

in his Plain Account of Christian Perfection Wesley remarks that there is no account of “any general state described in Scripture, from which a man cannot draw back to sin” (Wesley ch25). He speaks of perfection as sinlessness only available in heaven.

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Candidus said:

So, tell me of a single person in history that claimed absolute perfection. This challenge is a strawman that no one has ever claimed or taught as far as I know.

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You have avoided a straight answer because you don't know of anyone who has achieved sinless perfection in this life. This is because no one has ever achieved it. Even John Wesley, who believed in and taught sinless perfection by faith, eventually saw that Entire Sanctification by Faith is an unworkable doctrine.

Paul Christensen said:

You have avoided a straight answer because you don't know of anyone who has achieved sinless perfection in this life. This is because no one has ever achieved it. Even John Wesley, who believed in and taught sinless perfection by faith, eventually saw that Entire Sanctification by Faith is an unworkable doctrine.

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Because you cannot name a single person or movement in history that ever taught such a thing! It is the strawman of Calvinism and antinomians that want their "sin-and-win" theology! You need to stop reading what Calvinist teach that Wesley said and read him for yourself.

Candidus said:

Because you cannot name a single person or movement in history that ever taught such a thing! It is the strawman of Calvinism and antinomians that want their "sin-and-win" theology! You need to stop reading what Calvinist teach that Wesley said and read him for yourself.

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Okay. I've said my opinion on the matter. You have the right to receive it or reject it. You can accuse me of anything you like and I will agree with you, because I will, along with you, will be found guilty at the judgment for failing to keep God's Commandments. But I know that Jesus died on the cross and paid the debt for my sin, so God's case against me will be dismissed. What about you. I hope that is the case with you.

Renniks said:

Even Wesley, who was, I believe a very devote person, far beyond most of us, and who taught sanctification, did not define is as absolute perfection.
"
inward sanctification begins “in the moment a man is justified… From that time a believer gradually dies to sin, and grows in grace” (Wesley ch17).
"
sin is only suspended in them (those who have an instantaneous experience); it is not destroyed… They are all love today; and take no thought for the morrow” (Wesley ch26, italics mine). Translated in today’s common language this would mean that although a person might be entirely sanctified the chance that they will “lose it” is present. "

in his Plain Account of Christian Perfection Wesley remarks that there is no account of “any general state described in Scripture, from which a man cannot draw back to sin” (Wesley ch25). He speaks of perfection as sinlessness only available in heaven.

Thus, the presence of sin cannot and should not be used as a valid measurement for the presence of sanctification. This, consequently leads to asking the question What then is a valid measurement? Or in other words – what is the essence of sanctification according to John Wesley?

“It is ‘perfect love’ (1 John 4:18). This is the essence of it” (Wesley ch26)

Now, my comments: I grew up under Wesley's doctrine, but it was often warped into following a certain standard of dress and behavior and love was sometimes secondary. The older I get the more I see that the very people who claimed entire santification often have deep sins, but covered them with " proper" behavior. At the same time, some do love nearly perfectly, and ironically, some of those are people who are not what I would call doctrinally sound. Some are. .. and so it goes. We are not what we will be. But we are more than we once we're.

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Well said!

John Wesley never taught "Sinless perfection," but even in his day, his Calvinist opponents through willful dishonesty or ignorance, muddied him with smears and misrepresentations of what he taught. I have read many critique's of Wesley and Perfection written throughout the years and I have noted that very few of them cite Wesley, but most of them just quote another Calvinist and assumed what they said was true. While there may exist in this world someone that teaches "Sinless Perfection," they will not find it in Wesley. I for one would like to know who specifically teaches such a thing as described. I would like to know that such passion against a doctrine so many claim to know of first-hand, is much more than Don Quixote finding a windmill to attack.

Christian Perfection


The doctrine of Christian Perfection is badly misunderstood. Man cannot be a perfect God; nor do as perfectly as God; neither be a perfect angel, nor as perfect as Adam was before the Fall. No one is perfect in knowledge or has physical perfection; no one is perfect before men for the Jews said Jesus was a devil. When Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple with a whip, which from a human standpoint was not perceived as a righteous act by some. By most "religious" definitions today, Jesus would not be considered "perfect" by their standard either.

Perfect in love.​

Commanded to be perfect with God- Deut. 18:13
Walk before me and be thou perfect- Gen. 17:1
Be perfect as your Father is perfect- Matt. 5:48
Go on to perfection- Hebrews 6:1
We wish your perfection- 2 Cor. 13:9
Epaphras prays for your perfection- Col. 4:12
I pray night and day for your perfection- 2 Thes. 3:10
Scriptures are given: that the man of God may be perfect- 2 Thes. 3:10
We preach to present every man perfect- Col. 1:28
Finally farewell. Be perfect- 2 Cor. 13:11
God gave some apostles, some evangelists... for the perfecting of the saints- Eph. 4:11-13
If thou will be perfect- Matt. 19:21
Made perfect in one- John 17:23
Same is perfect man- James 3:2
Perfect in love- 1 John 4:17, 18
Love the bond of perfectness- Col. 3:14
Love is the fulfilling of the law -Romans 13:10
Mark the perfect man- Ps. 37:37
Noah was perfect in his generation- Gen. 6:9
Hezekiah had a perfect heart- 2 Kings 20:3
Asa's heart was perfect- 2 Chron. 15:17
I will walk with a perfect heart- Ps. 10:1, 2
Job a perfect man- Job 1:1-8
Perfect way- Ps. 10:1-7
The God of peace, who has the power to bring to life the dead, can make you perfect through the blood of everlasting covenant- Heb. 13:20, 21

Perfection is not a strange thing in Scripture. According to God, believers can be, and are commanded to go on to perfection.

Candidus said:

Mark the perfect man- Ps. 37:37

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My favorite passage!

Candidus said:

and antinomians that want their "sin-and-win" theology!

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Speaking of straw men . . .

Why does this nonsense always seem to get tossed into the mix?

I find that particularly difficult subjects are better discussed without logical fallacies.

Much love!

marks said:

S

Why does this nonsense always seem to get tossed into the mix?

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The fact is, most people would reject freedom from sin in favor of any doctrine that would justify salvation "in" sin. This is not a fallacy, but an observable fact.

marks said:

My favorite passage!

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But which "Mark" are they speaking of?

marks said:

Speaking of straw men . . .

Why does this nonsense always seem to get tossed into the mix?

I find that particularly difficult subjects are better discussed without logical fallacies.

Much love!

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The confusion comes from a faulty perception of what the new birth is all about. Jesus taught that our righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees. The Pharisees were ultra-strict in their obedience to the Mosaic Law, and were seen as totally blameless. One could not fault the devotion and compliance with the Law that each Pharisee had. Their faction was the most strict of all the different religious factions in Judea in the First Century, and yet, Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed religious perfection! How does one exceed perfection itself?

Obviously it is not self-improvement because one could not improve on the self-improvement that the Pharisees had achieved. We can only dream about their achievement in obeying the Ten Commandments.

The only way that we can exceed that perfection is to be born again of the Spirit of God, in which we trade our sinfulness with the righteousness of Christ which was given to us as a free gift. In spite of their human religious perfection, God saw their perfection as nothing because their hearts were not right with Him. That's why Jesus called them hypocrites and children of the devil.

So, we need to be born again of the Holy Spirit to receive the perfection which is contained in the righteousness of Christ which is given to us as a free, unearned gift.

But this certainly doesn't mean that we continue with "anything goes", as Paul said, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" So, having receive such mercy, grace and a wonderful salvation, we turn from our sinful ways and seek to love God and His holiness, and to hate sin, mainly within ourselves. We make our bodies our slaves, and seek the grace of God and strength from the Holy Spirit to maintain development in our sanctification.

Candidus said:

Perfection is not a strange thing in Scripture. According to God, believers can be, and are commanded to go on to perfection.

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TOTALLY.
Once the problem with the word/ definition is resolved in someone's thinking - even if they do not know the definition,
it is good.

i.e. TRUST GOD - HIS WORD IS TRUE ALWAYS, and PERFECT, COMPLETE< it is RIGHT, NEVER WRONG.

i.e. TRUST GOD - HE IS RIGHT, HE IS CORRECT. No sin, no iniquity in Him or in His Word, ever, no , not ever, never. It cannot be.

Candidus said:

The fact is, most people would reject freedom from sin in favor of any doctrine that would justify salvation "in" sin. This is not a fallacy, but an observable fact.

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Yes, and it is the largest (it seems) false gospel on earth, encompassing all the ecumenical thinkers.

Candidus said:

The fact is, most people would reject freedom from sin in favor of any doctrine that would justify salvation "in" sin. This is not a fallacy, but an observable fact.

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Utter nonsense, and meaningless in this discussion.

You've never spoken to, or heard from "most people", so this is overgeneralization, a logical fallacy.

Within the context of this conversation . . . let me put it this way. Who here demonatrates what you claim?

Seriously!

This just smears those who might disagree with your POV.

Joseph77 said:

Yes, and it is the largest (it seems) false gospel on earth, encompassing all the ecumenical thinkers.

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Again, overgeneralization, and does not describe this discussion, so where is the relevance of such an errant observation?

Are you claiming this of the participants in this discussion?

Paul Christensen said:

The confusion comes from a faulty perception of what the new birth is all about.

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I agree, I find that so much error is the result of a failure to understand justification and a new creation.

But once we can understand these, sanctification falls into place.

Much love!

Candidus said:

nor as perfect as Adam was before the Fall.

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In rebirth, we surpass Adam.