This is a false accusation. Those who hold to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture are sound Christian brethren and sisters. You may disagree with them, but you may not call them charlatans. Chances are that they hold to more sound doctrine than do you.
Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?
- Thread starter Davy
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I've already agreed that the time frames are mentioned but your verses still don't say if they're the first half or second. The bible never calls that "time" a period of "great tribulation" either. I'm just pointing out that a lot of our presumed facts are not based on scripture but on speculation.
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
Get away from prophecy of the Age of Law and take a look at what Jesus.
No rapture of the children of God in this prophecy that Jesus puts to his disciples!
The Parable of the Weeds
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
You have formulated a Theory, on your lack of Understanding.
You have created an EITHER "or" Theory, BY ignoring the Facts.
Your Theory fails Both ...
Logical (if you prefer Carnal reasoning)
AND
Scriptural reasoning (if you Trust Scripture is True).
You have saints ONLY being gathered After the Tribulation...
If your claim WERE True...IS Scripture Wrong? That there ARE there NO saints in Heaven, already gathered, that Come down From Heaven WITH the Lord?
Jude 1:
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Not talking about those deceived in it that are the charlatans. Those are the 'victims'.
The charlatans are those like Edward Irving, Norton, those at Margaret McDonald's bedside who misused her words, and those like John Darby and Cyrus Scofield who pushed the pre-trib doctrine among the Churches from the 1830s onward.
Oh, so you have to have someone actually tell you, "these events are the great tribulation"? You aren't able to link the 'type' of events in Bible prophecy?
I understand with some prophecies many have difficulty in this, but not those who have actually studied both their Old and New Testament Scriptures and shucked the doctrines of men aside. Lord Jesus promised His The Holy Spirit Comforter Who would teach us all things (John 14:26). I find it sort of amazing that today so few are listening to The Holy Spirit while in study, yet I kind of understand at the same time that God said there would be a famine in the last days for looking everywhere for The Word of God and not finding it (Amos 8). Those who do disciplined Bible study with God's help by The Holy Spirit are not subject to that famine.
Matt 13:51-52
51 Jesus saith unto them, "Have ye understood all these things?" They say unto Him, "Yea, Lord."
52 Then said He unto them, "Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old."
KJV
Because you believe in men's false pre-trib theory, you can't even find Bible Scripture for support, and must resort instead to slanders, and defaming language. Heck, you'd probably resort to cursing in the above if you thought you could get by with it! That's the working of 'another spirit', not the Spirit of Christ.
News Bulletin: it's ONLY saints in Christ that are gathered AFTER the tribulation, because that is WHEN Jesus returns to gather His faithful Church! If you are gathered early, you are like an early fig, gathered out of season (by the Antichrist)! Try to reverse the timing of His coming and gathering of the saints that which He declared in the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, I dare ya!
It's YOUR interpretation of Scripture that is wrong. That because you apply doctrines of men over God's written Word.
That's why I find it very strange that you pre-trib rapture folks use 1 Thess.4 all the time, but you actually don't even understand it as written!
1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Paul says don't worry about the brethren who have died, because Jesus when He comes will bring those "with Him". Very simple.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The Matthew 24:31 version of the gathering of the saints is specifically about the 'asleep' saints gathered "...from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
So much for you belief that Jesus doesn't bring any of the saints from the heavenly with Him when He comes, which is the subject of Jude 1:14.
You said it, I didn't. Accusations is exactly what you gave, while I gave SOLID SCRIPTURE EVIDENCE for what I say.
You are incapable of participating in a worthy conversation.
You started an OP with an Accusation.
Yet you have not one shred of Scriptural Truth that supports your Accusation.
Your Response of more Accusations...is sidestepping.
Prove your OP is Scripturally factual!
Wait, are you saying that those who believe in pre-trib are not saved and have pleasure in unrighteousness? Nad if they are pre-trib they are doing evil in God's eyes?
It sure sounds like that's what you are saying here.
There are much smarter and learned believers than many of us that have studied and believed in the pre-trib rapture. They are not stupid, evil or wicked men.
I used to believe in pre-trib. But after careful study I have moved from that position. I believe believers will go through some if not all of the tribulation period. I believe scripture teaches that. But I will not be so dogmatic as to say I am right and you are wrong. The time of the tribulation and the rapture is all based on prophecy that certainly is not absolutely clear.
I can argue my points as to why I believe something, but prophecy in this matter is not so clear as to be absolute.
I used to believe in pre-trib. But after careful study I have moved from that position. I believe believers will go through some if not all of the tribulation period. I believe scripture teaches that. But I will not be so dogmatic as to say I am right and you are wrong. The time of the tribulation and the rapture is all based on prophecy that certainly is not absolutely clear.
I can argue my points as to why I believe something, but prophecy in this matter is not so clear as to be absolute.
101G
Well-Known Member
first thanks for the reply, second, there is no bibical rapture. there is only one Gathering including those dead in the resurrection. no one is going anywhere before anyone else. as a matter of Fact God is comming here.
so if it sound like it, because it is, because there in rapture. sorry about that.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
To make it clear, you DO believe that people that believe in pre-trib ARE unrighteous and NOT Christians?
The bible never calls it a time of great tribulation, only some men do. People keep trying to say things that the bible never does. Yes, all your time segments are there and yes 1260 days equals 1/2 of the 70th week but that doesn't change the fact that the bible doesn't separate them from a first half and second half or any half at all, only men do.
I also find it interesting that the HS is speaking to everybody but it never seems to be the same message. If one makes a statement like I am right and you are wrong because I'm spiritually more in tune than that throws up a red flag to me. I don't think it's asking too much for a man's prophetic beliefs line up with what the bible actually says. If one feels the need to add things to the prophecies that aren't in line w/ the rest of them, then biblically they are treading upon dangerous ground. Fact, the bible never says there is a seven yr. "trib". Fact, the bible never divides the week into halves. Fact, the bible never says the great trib is 3 1/2 yrs. long. I believe I do know what the great trib is as the bible actually implies and it has nothing to do w/ the last part of the 70th week.
I certainly am capable, just not with knuckleheads who won't stay in God's Word as written.
You are in denial of The Word of God as written on these things. Hopefully before the coming tribulation starts with the false-Messiah appearing in Jerusalem, you will realize that trap which the pre-trib rapture is setting many congregations up for. That false one is coming in the role of Lord Jesus Christ, working the great signs and wonders our Lord Jesus warned His elect about (Matthew 24:23-26). Revelation reveals that coming false one will be the "dragon", Satan himself on earth in our dimension. Thing is, he is coming to play Jesus Christ and the majority of the world will not realize it until our True Lord Jesus Christ returns at the end of the tribulation.
That pseudo-Christ is to show up on in the middle of Daniel's symbolic "one week", and is given to reign over all nations and peoples on earth 42 months, including power over the saints (Rev.13). When he sets up the "abomination of desolation" Lord Jesus warned about from the Book of Daniel, which per Daniel is in the middle of the "one week" (7 years), that... is when the time of "great tribulation" will start. That is within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, because Revelation 11 with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe shows that's when Christ comes, all the kingdoms of this world being made those of The Father and His Christ.
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