The Trinity definition

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
When kurios is capitalized it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Capitalization is the translators prerogative.

There is one Kurios, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

As opposed to the many others who are also kurios.

The Father it the Kurios of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Yes.

There are many kurios' (1 Corinthians 8:5).

Clearly. And may theoi, too.

Capitalization matters; if you don't acknowledge it, there is contradictions between 1 Corinthians 8:5 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Keeping firmly in mind what was made clear in Psalm 110:1, there is no contradiction.

The Son is equal to the Father (John 5:18).

In function, not person.

They are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

That’s your interpretation of the passage.

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
I’ve read Isaiah 9:6. The Son is called “the everlasting Father,” but what does the title mean? You say it means that the Son is the Father. I (and others, of course) say it means that the Son is the father of the age to come.

That is so very weak...

I suppose that if someone really wants to latch onto it, they will...

Some people are simply susceptible to false teaching because it scratches their itching ears.

amadeus said:
Give God the glory!

Glory to God!

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
You have to change the wording of the kjv, not once, but twice, in order to deny the reality of the matter.

I’m not sure why you’ve introduced KJV into the conversation. Are you KJVO?

As for the reality of the matter, I agree with trinitarian scholarship that the title doesn’t identify the Son as the Father.

btw, I am a Trinitarian.

It’s a fundamental tenet of trinitarianism that the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son.

btw, I’m an ex-trinitarian

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
As opposed to the many others who are also kurios.

The others are not the one Kurios.

Mattathias said:
That’s your interpretation of the passage.

It is the literal interpretation.

Pro 1:6, To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

So taking that into consideration, don't keep your interpretation private. Expound to us your exegesis of 1 Corinthians 12:4-6...

1Co 12:4, Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5, And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6, And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

While you're at it, re-read post #6 of my thread:

True Trinity.

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
That is so very weak...

See the trinitarian scholarship I referenced in post #505.

amadeus · Nov 16, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
One of the many many problems with "anti cult" stuff is that it tries to lump a bunch of different beliefs all together. LDS Christian beliefs have minimal in common with JW beliefs, so this is extremely frustrating for me personally.

Some people as led by God may be able to correctly sort it all out now, but if we are not one of them... and I am not... then we must hold onto what we do have and keep on digging. If are sincere and our hearts are open to God He will lead us to where He wants us to be. For me there is a solution, but apparently it does not work for everyone. But... that's OK, because God will help anyone who wants His help...

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
Are you KJVO?

I am kjv-superior.

Mattathias said:
It’s a fundamental tenet of trinitarianism that the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son.

I agree that the Father is not the Son...

But I call myself a biblical Trinitarian in that I agree with the literal rendering of Isaiah 9:6 that the Son is the Father.

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
See the trinitarian scholarship I referenced in post #505.

post #505:

Mattathias said:
As for the reality of the matter, I agree with trinitarian scholarship that the title doesn’t identify the Son as the Father.

I disagree with the scholarship on this issue because it requires that one change the rendering of the kjv in order to fit a mold, thus the scholarship in question is based in eisegesis rather than exegesis.

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
The others are not the one Kurios.

We’re in agreement on that point.

It is the literal interpretation.

Pro 1:6, To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

So taking that into consideration, don't keep your interpretation private. Expound to us your exegesis of 1 Corinthians 12:4-6...

1Co 12:4, Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5, And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6, And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

The same Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The same Lord is Christ. The same God is the Father.

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
I am kjv-superior.

Thanks. (I’m not.)

I agree that the Father is not the Son...

But I call myself a biblical Trinitarian in that I agree with the literal rendering of Isaiah 9:6 that the Son is the Father.

The Father is not the Son but the Son is the Father? You are, of course, aware that the Son is not the Father in historical orthodox trinitarianism.

What is the difference between “biblical trinitarianism” and “historical orthodox trinitarianism”?

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
We’re in agreement on that point.

So, the Father is the one Kurios, the Son is the one Kurios; how is the Son then not the Father?

Mattathias said:
The same Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The same Lord is Christ. The same God is the Father.

Try again. Next time take into account the scriptures in the following post (and what I say by them):

True Trinity.

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
Thanks. (I’m not.)

The Father is not the Son but the Son is the Father? You are, of course, aware that the Son is not the Father in historical orthodox trinitarianism.

What is the difference between “biblical trinitarianism” and “historical orthodox trinitarianism”?

Biblical Trinitarianism accepts the literal rendering of Isaiah 9:6 in the kjv.

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Here:

justbyfaith said:
There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), the Father (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv), 1 Corinthians 8:6), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corintihans 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (James 3:9 (kjv), 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, Romans 15:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33; John 8:24), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27)..

There are not nine members of the Trinity.

There is one Spirit, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

There is one Lord, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

There is one God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

This is how we ought to read Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6.

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
I disagree with the scholarship on this issue because it requires that one change the rendering of the kjv in order to fit a mold, thus the scholarship in question is based in eisegesis rather than exegesis.

Thanks. I’m no longer a trinitarian, and I’m confident we can agree that trinitarian scholarship on this verse isn’t done to accommodate my Jewish unitary monotheism.

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Biblical Trinitarianism accepts the literal rendering of Isaiah 9:6 in the kjv.

Is that the only difference between “biblical trinitarianism” and “historical orthodox trinitarianism”?

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
Thanks. (I’m not.)

Your loss.

For all you know, the kjv is the only Bible that is the unadulterated word of the Lord for this generation.

It is indeed the narrow way that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14).

(other translations can help us in our understanding of the kjv where the archaic language differs from modern English).

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
Is that the only difference between “biblical trinitarianism” and “historical orthodox trinitarianism”?

It is the only difference that I am aware of at this moment.

ChristisGod · Nov 16, 2020

Mattathias said:
Is that the only difference between “biblical trinitarianism” and “historical orthodox trinitarianism”?

In Trinitarianism the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Eternal Father is not a reference to the Person of the Father in the Trinity.

In Isaiah 9:6 Everlasting Father the Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor.

hope this helps !!!

justbyfaith · Nov 16, 2020

@Christophany

How is the eternal Father not the Father?

Notice you have taken step one and have changed the Bible once...changing it from everlasting Father to Eternal Father.

There is only one Eternal Father...and that is the Father...

Jesus is an immortal human...and therefore He can be more accurately defined as the everlasting Father.

Are you aware that there is only one Father according to Malachi 2:10?

Mattathias · Nov 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Your loss.

For all you know, the kjv is the only Bible that is the unadulterated word of the Lord for this generation.

It is indeed the narrow way that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14).

(other translations can help us in our understanding of the kjv where the archaic language differs from modern English).

Thanks. I was raised KJVO. (A very kind and patient trinitarian (of the HOT variety) helped me to abandon that position.)

The Trinity definition

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