1 John's Sin Syllogism

[RedFan]

A. All of us sin (1 John 1:8).
B. Anyone born of God does not sin (1 John 3:9).
Therefore,
C. None of us is born of God.

What's wrong with this argument?

I've posed this question to several "born-again" Christians who admit that they still occasionally sin. They were all quick to point out that they promptly confess and get forgiven (1 John 1:9) -- but that doesn't address how could they could have sinned in the first place after being born again, if 1 John 3:9 is true. That's the question.

 

[MatthewG]

Because your human being and sin needs to be defined, Redfan.

Sometimes I get angry and frustrated with others and may not show love to them, thus I fall short of Gods standard.

What is Gods standard? Lord Yeshua Christ, who is the glory and righteousness of God.

Confessing my faults to God is an honest evaluation of not only my self but to whom I place my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, I sin, it’s not that I use this freedom in Christ to commit sin, it is just as a human being failure is bound to happen in the earthly atmosphere.

How to counteract getting angry, greedy, lustful, hateful, becoming malice, gossiping, back bitting? To know and remember in faith that God had pour his Holy Spirit into my heart, and that also the spirit of Christ lives with in me as just as much as (Gods very own spirit).

Jesus said: Luke 11:13 (consider that Jesus is also from heavenly in human flesh (yet he never sinned), the Father is heavenly, and the Holy Spirit of God is heavenly)

Paul states the flesh and its faults that are earthly and not heavenly: Galatians 5:19-21; Romans 6, Romans 7, Romans 8.

The Spirit is also evident of Heavenly Gifts from God: James 1:17

Paul also stated the evidence of the spirit and what it caused: Galatians 5:22-25; 1 Corinthians 13.

Don’t take my word for it though, my encouragement is for all to read the Bible and consider it’s contents.

The reality is abiding in Christ you won’t sin, because your abiding in him at the time (he can not sin if you allow him to work through you), there are undoubted times we are abiding in our own flesh.

Good question, @RedFan thank you for asking, it’s almost paradoxical.

 

[Episkopos]

A. All of us sin (1 John 1:8).
B. Anyone born of God does not sin (1 John 3:9).
Therefore,
C. None of us is born of God.

What's wrong with this argument?

I've posed this question to several "born-again" Christians who admit that they still occasionally sin. They were all quick to point out that they promptly confess and get forgiven (1 John 1:9) -- but that doesn't address how could they could have sinned in the first place after being born again, if 1 John 3:9 is true. That's the question.

Good thread. Only those who remain in Christ do not sin. Our problem is one of depth. We are born again into God's purity...no sin. If we are truly born in Zion (New Jerusalem) then our calling is that of a saint. In Zion there is no sin.

But we are converted at different depths....most only get a touch or taste of heaven. The problem at that point is that the church system is based around numbers...decisions for Christ...and not being converted in depth by seeking out the full measure of grace (baptism of the Spirit).

Anyone who is truly baptized in the Spirit knows what the perfect walk is all about. But even here, we will not be able to remain in that purity if we are immature. So we will go in and out of the Spirit throughout our walks until...if ever...we learn to remain in Christ, fully surrendered to Him.

The holy standard is perfection IN Christ. But very few will know that walk.

Does that mean that few are also born again? Again, this is about depth. Modern doctrines do NOT allow for a full measure of grace hence believers do not experience resurrection life. We are far too shallow in our understanding and our ways.

It still takes faith to walk as a disciple after being born again. There is very little faith out there. Beliefs have overturned the need for faith.

Beliefs come from the head...but faith comes from the heart. God cares nothing for our beliefs. But He is looking for faith.

 

[Lambano]

A. All of us sin (1 John 1:8).
B. Anyone born of God does not sin (1 John 3:9).
Therefore,
C. None of us is born of God.

What's wrong with this argument?

I've posed this question to several "born-again" Christians who admit that they still occasionally sin. They were all quick to point out that they promptly confess and get forgiven (1 John 1:9) -- but that doesn't address how could they could have sinned in the first place after being born again, if 1 John 3:9 is true. That's the question.

The rhetorical purpose of 1 John 3:1-10 is to establish our identity as Children of God (1 John 3:1). John appeals to that identity in 1 John 3:3 and 1 John 3:9 as he exhorts his flock to live NOW in the identity of what we are promised we will be (1 John 3:2; see also 1 John 2:1 - My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin). This is the goal towards which we strive.

To use 1 John 3:9 to murder the faith of the children who run into the harsh reality of 1 John 1:8-10 is a gross misuse of scripture. See Matthew 18:5-7.

As a member of a denomination in the Wesleyan tradition, I will note that though John Wesley taught that Entire Sanctification was possible in this life (if for limited periods of time), he would not claim it for himself.

[EPILOGUE] Premise B of the syllogism is not stated as a current fact, but rather as a future reality and a goal to strive for in the present. Without Premise B, Conclusion C cannot be made, Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

 

[Robert Gwin]

A. All of us sin (1 John 1:8).
B. Anyone born of God does not sin (1 John 3:9).
Therefore,
C. None of us is born of God.

What's wrong with this argument?

I've posed this question to several "born-again" Christians who admit that they still occasionally sin. They were all quick to point out that they promptly confess and get forgiven (1 John 1:9) -- but that doesn't address how could they could have sinned in the first place after being born again, if 1 John 3:9 is true. That's the question.

Hi Red, so true sir all of us are sinners, and since God's word cannot contradict itself, how can we harmonize this? We know we sin, so that scripture is correct, so how is it then that sin is not part of a born again Christians life? Sometimes it helps viewing other versions of the Bible to see how a verse is rendered, for example the New World Translation renders the verse this way:
(1 John 3:9) . . .Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God.
Now that is easily understood, but is it an accurate rendering of what was found in the original?

Many verses are repeated with more information so Cross Reference Bibles help immensely in understanding. A cross ref version mentions 1 Jn 5:18, which does in fact add information, and although difficult to understand in some versions, a Strongs concordance helps greatly to identify what is said. The KJV renders the verse this way:
1jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Looking up keepeth:
threvw Tereo (tay-reh'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 5083

1. to attend to carefully, take care of
   1. to guard
   2. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
   3. to observe
   4. to reserve: to undergo something
   We see that a born again Christian is protected, guarded by the keeper, from satan and his reaching effects including sin. Jesus' sacrifice covers over their sin, as well as all those who seek him, born again or not. It is not that they do not sin, but their sins are not held accountable through that ransom sacrifice given in their behalf. Make sense?
   
   

 

[RedFan]

Jesus' sacrifice covers over their sin, as well as all those who seek him, born again or not. It is not that they do not sin, but their sins are not held accountable through that ransom sacrifice given in their behalf. Make sense?

I'm not sure it's a way out of the dilemma, but I sure can't argue with your non-accountability proposition! Thanks.

 

[ScottA]

A. All of us sin (1 John 1:8).
B. Anyone born of God does not sin (1 John 3:9).
Therefore,
C. None of us is born of God.

What's wrong with this argument?

I've posed this question to several "born-again" Christians who admit that they still occasionally sin. They were all quick to point out that they promptly confess and get forgiven (1 John 1:9) -- but that doesn't address how could they could have sinned in the first place after being born again, if 1 John 3:9 is true. That's the question.

Every word from God concludes that we descended from Adam whom God condemned to live a life under the weight of his sin. We are his children., captives by birth to Adam's original sin.

Breaking free from our captivity was stated in the beginning, as, "And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— Genesis 3:22 Which comes only through Jesus Christ:

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’​

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm not sure it's a way out of the dilemma, but I sure can't argue with your non-accountability proposition! Thanks.

You are very welcome Red.