7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

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I agree with a lot of this. Dispensational Eschatology is purely an insertion into the book of Revelation, even after we were warned not to add anything to the book! Pretribulation Theology is non-existent in the NT Scriptures, and it was non-existent in the Church for 1800 years. If there were any exceptions to this, they did not rise to the level of an accepted theology within the Church.

I don't know who the 4 Horsemen are, but I'm pretty confident Antichrist isn't any of them. They appear to be angels bringing judgment to the earth in the endtimes.
Ez 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?"
The noisome beasts or world conquerors fulfilled this prophecy for about 600 years. There were 4 of these noisome beasts as pictured in Dan 7, Babylon, Media - Persia, Greece, and Rome. All noisome beasts (also known as conquerors or antichrists) since the 1st century have been limited to 1/4 world power.

Antichrist is not the 1st horsemen because his power will not be limited.
The Tribulation Period I actually call "the Reign of Antichrist," which lasts only for "a time, times and half a time," aka 3.5 years.
Excellent. God's period of wrath follows this 3.5 years. These terms are not interchangeable.
I agree that Dispensationalism has caused some confusion in the interpretation of Revelation. In my view, Amillennialism has also been a problem.

The cause of a lot of the confusion over Christian Eschatology is impatience waiting for Israel to come to Christ. That is what caused Amillennialism, and that therefore resulted in Symbolic Interpretation.

Dispensationalism attempted to restore ancient Premillennialism, following the ideas of Catholic Lacunza, who followed after Ribera. The idea of Premill I agree with. However, somewhere along the way, Dispensationalists began to worry about Christians suffering God's Wrath when Antichrist arrives. The Bible says that Christians will not suffer God's Wrath.
Christians will not suffer God's wrath, but they also won't be taken out of the world until Jesus returns.
John 17:15 " I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
In the restoration of ideas about a future Antichrist, it became apparent that the Church would have to suffer for her testimony. That testimony would not be popular in an antichristian world!

And so, it was thought that if the tribulation of the time of Antichrist is to be associated with God's Wrath at the end of the age, surely the Church must be caught up before that time at a "secret coming" of Christ? Of course, I don't think so, but it had long been taught that Christians would escape the outpouring of God's Wrath at Christ's Coming.
The great tribulation: If God did not stop the period of great tribulation, everyone on earth would die. This includes Christians.
God's wrath: Immediately after the great tribulation, the vengeance of God upon those who oppose him. Although God's wrath does not include Christians, some Christians will die during this time. Rev 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."
Jesus returns in Rev 14:14.
 
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One thing I found out is that I can take 20 well schooled theologians and when asked about the book of Revelation no two will be in full agreement. Most of the problems come with timing and overlap. However as we get closer to the time for its fulfillment this book starts to make a lot more sense and begins to read like the daily news.

The seals emanate from this earth. It is actions that satan initiates so as to enable their son of perdition to rise to power on a global scale. The Trumpets and bowls of wrath come from God and is his answer. The Gentile church is gathered during the sixth seal. The Jews remain during the Trumpets and are gathered before the bowls of wrath.
In this thread, I have tried to show the foundational errors that have led to the problems with timing and overlap. Previously, I have compared the 4 Gospels to the 6 stories of chapters 6-19 of the Revelation. Just as the 4 Gospels end with the death and resurrection of Jesus, the 6 stories of Revelation end at the time Jesus comes with the clouds.

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Sorry, but there are many errors with what you suggest. And you really should show the Scripture you are referring to.



The 24 elders in Rev.4 is a 'future' forward vision in Heaven. It is NOT about the 'present'. So there's no reason to think those 24 elders represent angels or cherubim, especially since they are shown to have crowns. The crown represents a promised reward by Christ to His elect at His coming, so that's more reason to consider that vision being for after Christ's future return.
The tabernacle and the temple were earthly patterns of what already existed in heaven.
Aaron had 4 sons of which only 2 had children. Eleazar had 16 sons and Ithamar had 8. These 24 grandsons of Aaron were the pattern of the 24 elders which already existed in heaven, just as Aaron was the pattern for Jesus as high priest.
The rider on the white horse of Rev.6 representing the 1st Seal is about the 'final' Antichrist that is prophesied to come at the very end of this world, playing God, in Jerusalem. The prophecy is about a specific entity that will work great signs and wonders, and miracles, that will deceive the whole world, except Christ's elect (Daniel 9:17 and Daniel 11 with the "vile person", Daniel 7 & 8 about the "little horn", Matt.24 about the pseudo-Christ, 2 Thess.2 about the "man of sin", and Rev.13 about the "another beast"). That false-Messiah has not come yet.

So trying to label those like Nero, Hitler, or even a pope, etc., as that final Antichrist is actually a very funny idea.
Why is Antichrist's power over death limited to 1/4 of the earth? We have been given 4 examples of Antichrist in the 4 world powers of Daniel. All of them had power like King Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 5:19 "And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down."
Both statements are error.
The time for the 5th Seal event is not here yet today. It is set for closer to the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end just prior to Christ's future return. All... of the SEALS of Rev.6 are the 7 SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse which reveal the things that are to happen leading up to His future return. That is why those given eyes to see, and ears to hear are able to study the Matt.24 and Mark 13 SIGNS in parallel with the Seals of Rev.6.
Matt 24:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
All of these signs have been ongoing. These are not signs of Jesus return because they have existed since he came the first time! What was new in the 1st century is people who were filled with the Holy Spirit, the martyrs of the 5th seal, who limited nations and kingdoms from ruling the whole earth. Even the next few "signs" of Matt 24 were given exclusively for the 12 apostles in Matt 10.

Matt 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matt 10
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The big sign that Matt 24 tells us to watch for that is different than any other time is the abomination of desolation.
Both statements are in error. The Book of Revelation gives the same SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The very last SIGN He gave is that of His future return. The 21 events of Revelation involve ONLY those 7 SIGNS Jesus gave. Thus the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials occur in 'parallel' to each other. This is why Jesus' future coming is shown at the end of the 6th Seal, and on the 7th Trumpet, and on the 7th Vial. And the first section of Rev.19 is actually for after... His coming when the Babylon harlot is shown already destroyed, with the latter part of Rev.19 showing Jesus coming on a white horse with His army, and that also is the timing of the 6th Seal of Rev.6, and 7th Trumpet of Rev.11.
Excellent. This parallelism is what I believe. Jesus coming is shown at the end of the 6th seal. That is the end of this story. The next story does not begin after Jesus comes. It begins a whole new story at a whole new time. Rev 7:1-8:5 is the next story that ends with the throne of God and and earthquake just as found in the 6th seal, although the throne of God is shown symbollically as thunders, lightnings, and voices (See Rev 4:5).

If you refer to the chart in my last post the darkening of the skies in the 6th seal occurs at the time of silence of the 7th seal and it can be concluded that the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 rose into heaven during these 30 minutes of silence before a new song broke out in heaven.

I do believe that the timing is the same for the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet, and Rev 19. This is the time of the last plague, the last of 7 bowls of God's wrath, the time when both the throne of God and Jesus come to the earth. This last plague is pictured 6 times in parallel.

And based on your attempted correction, it reveals the Church will remain in confusion about the events and order written all the way up to the day of Christ's future return.
I don't believe 2000 years of confusion will be affected by my thoughts unless of course, the confusion comes to an end!
 

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Why do you theorize--do you not know that was the very reason the Bride was told to be silent in church?
The bride has been theorizing for 2000 years. I believe we are meant to understand God's Word, but we are far from it concerning the Revelation.
 

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You get two things wrong, we do not just vanish, we die, if you took the time to read all of 1 Cor. 15 that would become very clear. The Spirit man is raised, not the flesh which can not enter heaven. Secondly, this rapture came from Jesus and Paul. Anyone who can not see it I see as a lightweight in prophecy.
One point I was making is that we do not vanish. It is the change from mortal to immortal that takes place in the twinkling of an eye and not the rapture. 1 Thes 4:13-17 says that some will be alive when Jesus comes. These living will also be changed to the "Spirit man" in the twinkling of an eye. The dead who already came out of their graves and are standing next to the living will then be changed into "Spirit man" and then raptured up to heaven at the same time. The rapture will be a visible event.

I do agree that there will be a rapture. It is just not found in 1 Cor 15.

I'm not sure what I got wrong in your eyes.
Th Hereafter is the 70th week, and the Church can be seen in heaven in Rev. 4:4, Rev. 5:9-10 and in Rev. 7:9-16. It means after the Church age, seen in Rev. 2-3. The number 7 = Divine Completion.
Why did the "hereafter" in Daniel begin with the kingdom in which Daniel was living?
Rev. 4:4 proves this, it common sense, READ IT, every promise made to the OVERCOMERS in Rev. 2:10 (a Crown of life), Rev. 3:5 (White Robes) and Rev. 3:21 (will sit at God's Throne) can all be seen in Rev. 4:4. The 24 Orders of the Priesthood can be seen in 1 Chronicles 24. Jesus calls us Kings & Priests in Rev. 1:6 and in Rev. 5:9-10 you just can't put it together, I have been called unto real prophecy 40 years Its obvious you haven't been called unto prophecy at all.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

You can't even put this simple stuff together, and I am supposed to buy into your wrong-think?
I don't understand how you could believe that the 24 elders are excluded from the list of patterns of what already existed in heaven?

Heb 9:8-9
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present,
in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

What does John see in heaven?
1 God the Father on his throne
2 The 24 elders
3 The Holy Spirit
4 A sea of Glass
5 4 Beasts
6 A Scroll
7 Jesus!

Why is Jesus the last thing to be seen around the throne of God?

Rev 5:4 "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon."

Why is a man not found in verse 4 above, but a man is suddenly found below in verse 5 who is able to open the book?

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

This can only be the moment that the slain lamb entered into heaven!
The Four Horses are taken out of Zechariah, just like Rev. 17 is taken out of Dan. 5. God Himself wrote the book of Revelation, John on copied the visions and uttering of angels. Its no wonder you can not grasp it, most can't, especially those not called by God unto prophecy. A White horse in history always stood for a man who conquered in folk lore. Here God used the White horse to show the Anti-Christ conquering, then a White horse to show in the end that Jesus will conquer, this goes right over your head it seems. God also showed the same A.C. on a Red Horse bringing war, on a Black horse bringing famine and on a Pale green horse bringing Sickness/Death and the Grave (Hades). Anyone who can't even understand the White horse should not be trying to teach anything about prophecy.
I have stated that the conqueror does ride the white horse. The conqueror (seal 1) brings war (seal 2), famine (seal 3) and pestilence (seal 4).

The difference is that if God had allowed Antichrist to continue ruling, everyone and not 1/4 of earth would have died. Jesus on the white horse will also have authority to put to death anyone who does not serve him, 100%. For 600 years (roughly 600 BC to the 1st century), 4 kingdoms were types of these conquerors on white horses who had authority to put to death anyone who did not serve them, 100%. For the past 2000 years, all conquerors have been limited in authority to put to death only 25% of the earth who did not serve them.
And that's what happens, how do you get everything wrong? Hmm, I wonder why.
Since the time of Pentecost, martyrs are what have prevented the next world conqueror from appearing.

2 Thes 2:2-3
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When there are not enough Christians willing to stand up against evil conquerors (seal 5 martyrs), Antichrist will arise.
There is no 7 years of the greatest ever troubles as you think of it, the 70th wee is troubles because in John 16:33 Jesus himself told us ALL TIME on earth is troubles. (Get it now? That means even the church age was great tribulation, just not the greatest ever which lasts 3.5 years or 1260 days, simple stuff). TBH, most do not understand the Seals only open up God's sealed up Wrath. The last seal is opened up over in Rev. 8 for a reason, God's wrath falls via the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact, which is Trumps 1-4. So, the 6th Seals is Jesus prophesying what will come when the 7th Seal is finally opened over in Rev. 8, and the first 5 seals is Jesus prophesying what the Anti-Christ will bring forth over the same 42 month period as God's wrath (he is a part of that wrath) when the 7th seal is opened. he 1.) Conquers for 42 months 2.) Brings Wars for 42 months 3.) His rule brings Famine for 42 months 4.) His rule will bring death/sickness for 42 months and finally 5.) He will kill the Gentiles who come to Christ for 42 months, the Jews who repent are protected by God Himself.

The truth is, you need to just leave prophesy all together. Just quit man.
Daniel's 70th week is the last week of Israel's punishment. Israel was to be punished for its sin for 70 years under Babylon. For the most part, Israel did not repent from its sin during the 70 years, so its punishment was multiplied by 7 according to the law, 490 years. 483 of these 490 years are history. There is a future period of 7 years of punishment for Israel, of which 3.5 years is the period of great tribulation.

Only seals 6 and 7 contain God's wrath and these seals are parts of 2 separate stories which overlap.

I don't see an asteroid impact. I see a kingdom symbolically shown as a mountain going back into insignificance with the rest of the nations which are symbolically shown as the sea. In Revelation, 7 mountains are 7 kingdoms. In Daniel, when the 4 winds blow on the great sea, 4 nations come out of the sea.

Antichrist reigns for 42 months, which is the time of the great tribulation, which is not part of God's wrath. The Rev 10 vision is similar to the Dan 12:5-7 vision which concerns a time, times, and a half or 42 months. Therefore Rev 10 is part of the great tribulation. Rev 11 contains 42 months and 1260 days which are both references to the same great tribulation. Rev 12:6 and 14 same. Rev 13:5 same. Rev 14 and beyond may picture those who have come out of the great tribulation, but they are mostly the time of God's wrath.

It is the death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven of the 2 witnesses that ends the period of great tribulation. This is the sign of Jesus in Matt 24:30. This is when Israel repents and accepts Jesus as Lord. This is when the Gentile rule over any part of Jerusalem will come to an end. This is not when Jesus returns!
 

ScottA

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The bride has been theorizing for 2000 years. I believe we are meant to understand God's Word, but we are far from it concerning the Revelation.

My question was regarding potentially joining the host of those who error in conjecture, when only One is correct and has given the terms for actual understanding.
 

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My question was regarding potentially joining the host of those who error in conjecture, when only One is correct and has given the terms for actual understanding.
If any of us believed we were in error regarding any of the scripture, we would be silent. I presume we all believe that we are making disciples as commanded. What do you suggest we do with God's word, stay silent?
 

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COMMON ERROR 1 Rapture takes place in the twinkling of an eye. Everyone disappears instantly. (The "Left Behind" Theory)
NEW THEORY 1 The Change from mortal to immortal takes place in the twinkling of an eye. Nobody becomes invisible.
The rapture does take place in the twinkling of an eyue.

! Cor. 15 shows the speed of the change and Thesselonians speaks of the rapture. The dead are raised immortal and we which are alive are snatched up to meet the dead in the air and be with the Lord. The churches home is heaven as jesus said in John 14.
COMMON ERROR 2 "Hereafter" is after the church is gone.
NEW THEORY 2 Daniel's "Hereafter" began with the kingdom in which he lived (Babylon). Revelation: "Hereafter" is 1st century Rome.
Yes Daniel saw the vision of the four great gentile kingdoms that reign until Jesus returns. No 1st century Rome is not the hereafter. The fourth great kingdom began with rome, but ends with the Antichrist defeated by the physical return of jesus. It is in the days of the ten kings that ally themselves with the antichrist that Jesus destroys the kingdoms . Verse 40-45 of Dan. 2
COMMON ERROR 3 John is raptured into heaven after the church age.
NEW THEORY 3 John sees the arrival of Jesus into heaven after he rose from the dead around 32 A.D.
I don't see John raptured in the "come up hither" passage. Also in Rev. 4 John sees Jesus in His glory. Period. NOthng about Jesus right after His ascension. JOhn would not need to see a vision of this, He was an eyewitness of His ascension.
COMMON ERROR 4 24 Elders symbolically are the Church which has been raptured into heaven. (Song 2) proves Church as 24 elders.
NEW THEORY 4 24 Elders are angelic creatures who have worshipped God since creation. (Song 2) Cherubim sing this song.
Nowhere in Scripture are angels called elders (excluding here which you say it is). Angels do not receive crowns- church folk do. there is debate about who these are. some say they represent the church. Some say 24 special church folk (12 apostles + some 12 others) or the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Israel. I know the 12 apostles are told they would have thrones, but never angels. Also white raiment is always mentioned of the saints.
COMMON ERROR 5 Antichrist is rider on the white horse.
NEW THEORY 5 Rider on the white horse is any leader who wants to rule the world (Nero, Hitler). Seal 4 limits death to 1/4 of the earth.
Well it is a rider singular. god is not a sloppy grammatician. If it was referring to any who would rule the world, God would have said riders.

Also we know that antichrist goes to war with three fo the ten kings in the end times and conquers them. As this is in the end times book, while it does not specifically say "Antichrist" the evidence is overwhelming for it to be him.
COMMON ERROR 6 "Tribulation Saints" (martyrs) die during 7 years of Tribulation. (After Church is raptured)
NEW THEORY 6 "Tribulation Saints" is a term made to fit a Common Theory. The martyrs pictured during the fifth seal died during the 1st century.
So you would exclude church martyrs from teh 2nd-21st Century? Where is your evidence.

Tribulation saints is a made up term. Just like church saints and OT saints. It simply defines the saints during different periods. OT saints have a different position in the millenial kingdom as do tribulation saints. The church was born at Pentecost when spirit baptism began and ends with the pre-tribulational rapture. So trib saints simply describes saints who get saved after the church is gone. Just like OT saints describes those saved before the church was born.

Even John the Ba[ptist knew He was not of the church (though he did not know what the church at that time) when He said he was just a friend of the bridegroom and not part of the bride.
COMMON ERROR 7 The events of the sixth seal will occur near the beginning of the 7 years of great tribulation.
NEW THEORY 7 The six stories of chapters 6-19 all end when the throne of God shakes the earth and/or when Jesus returns.
Actiually the position you call common is very uncommon. I know very few dispensational eschatology believers who think that other than me. Most hod the six seals take place at the beginning of the last 7 years.

And no, the seals and trumpets and bowls are sequential and not concurrent. The 7th trumpet introduces the blowing of the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet intros the pouring of the seven vials. Once again God is not a sloppy inspirer to have John write this vision in a way that leads the vast majority of believing readers to see them as sequential. God is not into tricking believers with sly writing.
 

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If any of us believed we were in error regarding any of the scripture, we would be silent. I presume we all believe that we are making disciples as commanded. What do you suggest we do with God's word, stay silent?

If we speak according to our own understanding by conjecture and opinion, we likely fall short of what God has said by His greater knowledge and understanding. So, to be "silent in church" refers rather not to God or His own word, but to our own extra understanding and input which is likely to disrupt, rather than edify. If refined by Holy fire, only the pure should remain.

We might all learn something from the Israelite practice of simply reading the text. However, in addition, God has even included and continued to make "some prophets" even during the church age, saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Which does not refer to the teachings of men, but the Holy Spirit which He promised to send and would speak to many directly, and also by "some" of His own choosing. But with the caution to "beware."
 

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The rapture does take place in the twinkling of an eyue.

! Cor. 15 shows the speed of the change and Thesselonians speaks of the rapture. The dead are raised immortal and we which are alive are snatched up to meet the dead in the air and be with the Lord. The churches home is heaven as jesus said in John 14.
The dead are raised immortal and we which are alive are changed immortal in the twinkling of an eye. Then, people watch as the immortal visibly ascend (are raptured) into heaven. They watched Jesus and they will watch the 2 witnesses. It probably takes about a half an hour to ascend out of sight.
Yes Daniel saw the vision of the four great gentile kingdoms that reign until Jesus returns. No 1st century Rome is not the hereafter. The fourth great kingdom began with rome, but ends with the Antichrist defeated by the physical return of jesus. It is in the days of the ten kings that ally themselves with the antichrist that Jesus destroys the kingdoms . Verse 40-45 of Dan. 2
What do you say about the 1st kingdom of Babylon? It was one of the 'hereafter' kingdoms in Daniel, yet it already existed at the time of the vision. I agree with what you said from "The fourth great kingdom..."
I don't see John raptured in the "come up hither" passage. Also in Rev. 4 John sees Jesus in His glo'ry. Period. NOthng about Jesus right after His ascension. JOhn would not need to see a vision of this, He was an eyewitness of His ascension.
Jesus is not even in heaven in Rev 4. If he was, John would have mentioned him with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Why would an all powerful, all knowing Jesus be given something. Isn't that a contradiction. When Jesus came to earth, he emptied himself. When he returned to heaven, he received back all of his former glory.
In Jesus" ascension, John could only see Jesus until a cloud took him out of his sight. In the vision, John saw Jesus preparing heaven for mankind through the sprinkling of his blood.
Nowhere in Scripture are angels called elders (excluding here which you say it is).
This is a valid point! What about the 4 beasts? Are they angelic creatures? Does the Bible refer to beasts as angels or are they certain other men in heaven?
Angels do not receive crowns- church folk do. there is debate about who these are. some say they represent the church. Some say 24 special church folk (12 apostles + some 12 others) or the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Israel. I know the 12 apostles are told they would have thrones, but never angels. Also white raiment is always mentioned of the saints.
We are not told very much about angels, but they do have a hierarchy, they do wear white, and the first 24 elders on earth represented something that was already in heaven. The earthly was made in order to show what the heavenly was already like, not the other way around.
Well it is a rider singular. god is not a sloppy grammatician. If it was referring to any who would rule the world, God would have said riders.
The rider in the vision is a type of something that would come. It could be a one-time thing or it could be a repeated thing.
Also we know that antichrist goes to war with three fo the ten kings in the end times and conquers them. As this is in the end times book, while it does not specifically say "Antichrist" the evidence is overwhelming for it to be him.
The majority of the Revelation provides the signs leading to 1:7 " Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." There are 6 stories that end at this time and a 7th that begins there.
600 BC until the 1st century shows four types of Antichrist. For the past 2000 years, there has not been a world Antichrist as the 1/4 of the earth death limit implied. 2600 years of history is overwhelming evidence against this rider being Antichrist.
So you would exclude church martyrs from teh 2nd-21st Century? Where is your evidence.
The reglorification of Jesus was 1st century. Christian martyrs could not begin before Pentecost in the 1st century. There are not multitudes of martyrs under the altar and more martyrs were to come in the future. It makes sense to me that John only saw 1st century martyrs in his vision. That being said, there have been 'antichrists' bringing war, famine, and pestilence, but limited to 1/4 of the earth from the 2nd-21st century. This is a recurring pattern that will continue until the 'Antichrist' is capable of killing everyone everywhere, not limited by Christian martyrs to 1/4 of the earth.
Tribulation saints is a made up term. Just like church saints and OT saints. It simply defines the saints during different periods. OT saints have a different position in the millenial kingdom as do tribulation saints. The church was born at Pentecost when spirit baptism began and ends with the pre-tribulational rapture. So trib saints simply describes saints who get saved after the church is gone. Just like OT saints describes those saved before the church was born.

Even John the Ba[ptist knew He was not of the church (though he did not know what the church at that time) when He said he was just a friend of the bridegroom and not part of the bride.
Thats all fine, but I don't see in Rev 1:7 or anywhere else that Jesus is coming secretly 1st before every eye sees him.
Actiually the position you call common is very uncommon. I know very few dispensational eschatology believers who think that other than me. Most hod the six seals take place at the beginning of the last 7 years.
That is actually what I said. Most hold the six seals take place at the beginning of the last 7 years. The presence of both God the Father and God the Son doesn't seem to bother them.
And no, the seals and trumpets and bowls are sequential and not concurrent. The 7th trumpet introduces the blowing of the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet intros the pouring of the seven vials. Once again God is not a sloppy inspirer to have John write this vision in a way that leads the vast majority of believing readers to see them as sequential. God is not into tricking believers with sly writing.
 

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The rapture does take place in the twinkling of an eyue.

! Cor. 15 shows the speed of the change and Thesselonians speaks of the rapture. The dead are raised immortal and we which are alive are snatched up to meet the dead in the air and be with the Lord. The churches home is heaven as jesus said in John 14.

Yes Daniel saw the vision of the four great gentile kingdoms that reign until Jesus returns. No 1st century Rome is not the hereafter. The fourth great kingdom began with rome, but ends with the Antichrist defeated by the physical return of jesus. It is in the days of the ten kings that ally themselves with the antichrist that Jesus destroys the kingdoms . Verse 40-45 of Dan. 2

I don't see John raptured in the "come up hither" passage. Also in Rev. 4 John sees Jesus in His glory. Period. NOthng about Jesus right after His ascension. JOhn would not need to see a vision of this, He was an eyewitness of His ascension.

Nowhere in Scripture are angels called elders (excluding here which you say it is). Angels do not receive crowns- church folk do. there is debate about who these are. some say they represent the church. Some say 24 special church folk (12 apostles + some 12 others) or the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Israel. I know the 12 apostles are told they would have thrones, but never angels. Also white raiment is always mentioned of the saints.

Well it is a rider singular. god is not a sloppy grammatician. If it was referring to any who would rule the world, God would have said riders.

Also we know that antichrist goes to war with three fo the ten kings in the end times and conquers them. As this is in the end times book, while it does not specifically say "Antichrist" the evidence is overwhelming for it to be him.

So you would exclude church martyrs from teh 2nd-21st Century? Where is your evidence.

Tribulation saints is a made up term. Just like church saints and OT saints. It simply defines the saints during different periods. OT saints have a different position in the millenial kingdom as do tribulation saints. The church was born at Pentecost when spirit baptism began and ends with the pre-tribulational rapture. So trib saints simply describes saints who get saved after the church is gone. Just like OT saints describes those saved before the church was born.

Even John the Ba[ptist knew He was not of the church (though he did not know what the church at that time) when He said he was just a friend of the bridegroom and not part of the bride.

Actiually the position you call common is very uncommon. I know very few dispensational eschatology believers who think that other than me. Most hod the six seals take place at the beginning of the last 7 years.

And no, the seals and trumpets and bowls are sequential and not concurrent. The 7th trumpet introduces the blowing of the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet intros the pouring of the seven vials. Once again God is not a sloppy inspirer to have John write this vision in a way that leads the vast majority of believing readers to see them as sequential. God is not into tricking believers with sly writing.
I had too many characters for one post, so I am answering your last paragraph here.

The gathering of the 6th bowl and the events of the 7th bowl are the most descriptive of the days before the millennial kingdom. These events are found 5 other times. 6 repetitions of concurrent events.

Compare Rev 16:16-21
Rev 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

To Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved (earthquake) out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, (gathered) hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (Rev 4:5 "out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices) and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And to Rev 8:5
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

And to Rev 11:18-19
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And to Rev 14:19-20
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And to Rev 19:15-21
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
 

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If we speak according to our own understanding by conjecture and opinion, we likely fall short of what God has said by His greater knowledge and understanding. So, to be "silent in church" refers rather not to God or His own word, but to our own extra understanding and input which is likely to disrupt, rather than edify. If refined by Holy fire, only the pure should remain.

We might all learn something from the Israelite practice of simply reading the text. However, in addition, God has even included and continued to make "some prophets" even during the church age, saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Which does not refer to the teachings of men, but the Holy Spirit which He promised to send and would speak to many directly, and also by "some" of His own choosing. But with the caution to "beware."
Thanks for your words of caution.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The dead are raised immortal and we which are alive are changed immortal in the twinkling of an eye. Then, people watch as the immortal visibly ascend (are raptured) into heaven. They watched Jesus and they will watch the 2 witnesses. It probably takes about a half an hour to ascend out of sight.
Maybe, maybe not! We will know with certainty when the rapture arrives.
What do you say about the 1st kingdom of Babylon? It was one of the 'hereafter' kingdoms in Daniel, yet it already existed at the time of the vision. I agree with what you said from "The fourth great kingdom..."
Babylon remained the first gentile kingdom for quite awhile after the dream so it is most definitely hereafter.
Jesus is not even in heaven in Rev 4. If he was, John would have mentioned him with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Why would an all powerful, all knowing Jesus be given something. Isn't that a contradiction. When Jesus came to earth, he emptied himself. When he returned to heaven, he received back all of his former glory.
In Jesus" ascension, John could only see Jesus until a cloud took him out of his sight. In the vision, John saw Jesus preparing heaven for mankind through the sprinkling of his blood.
John did not mention lots of things, that doesn't mean they were not there! Now you are making an argument from silence, that is a faulty way to establish a fact.
This is a valid point! What about the 4 beasts? Are they angelic creatures? Does the Bible refer to beasts as angels or are they certain other men in heaven?
Well they are spirit creatures. The spirit creatures are divided into three categories. In their order of power and prominence it is:

1. Cherubs
2. Seraphs
3. Angels
We are not told very much about angels, but they do have a hierarchy, they do wear white, and the first 24 elders on earth represented something that was already in heaven. The earthly was made in order to show what the heavenly was already like, not the other way around.
That is supposition on your part and not supported by Scripture.
The rider in the vision is a type of something that would come. It could be a one-time thing or it could be a repeated thing.
You cannot have one horse be a type and the others literal events. That is just failed exegesis and grammatics. God doesn't bounce around like that. We do , but He doesn't. No, the white horse and rider (singular) is the antichrist going to war to consolidate his power as prophesied in Daniel.
The majority of the Revelation provides the signs leading to 1:7 " Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." There are 6 stories that end at this time and a 7th that begins there.
600 BC until the 1st century shows four types of Antichrist. For the past 2000 years, there has not been a world Antichrist as the 1/4 of the earth death limit implied. 2600 years of history is overwhelming evidence against this rider being Antichrist.
Well then show all this "history".
The reglorification of Jesus was 1st century. Christian martyrs could not begin before Pentecost in the 1st century. There are not multitudes of martyrs under the altar and more martyrs were to come in the future. It makes sense to me that John only saw 1st century martyrs in his vision. That being said, there have been 'antichrists' bringing war, famine, and pestilence, but limited to 1/4 of the earth from the 2nd-21st century. This is a recurring pattern that will continue until the 'Antichrist' is capable of killing everyone everywhere, not limited by Christian martyrs to 1/4 of the earth.
Well that is just foolish.

Wars, famines. pestilence, hyper inflation have not been restricted to 1/4 of the earth, but appear globally.

We have had several antichrist types in the last century alone. HItler being the most prominent.

Hat to tell you this but by the end of the first century, tens of thousands of believers paid with their lives. And since the end of teh first century, we havce had Christians killed across all continents except Antarctica.
That is actually what I said. Most hold the six seals take place at the beginning of the last 7 years. The presence of both God the Father and God the Son doesn't seem to bother them.
Well the presence of Father and Son could place the seals in the trib, their presence makes no difference eschatologically. But the language of all combined passages have convinced me the first 6 seals are pretrib. Sometime between soon and before the antichrist signs the 7 year covenant which begins the last 7 years.
I had too many characters for one post, so I am answering your last paragraph here.

The gathering of the 6th bowl and the events of the 7th bowl are the most descriptive of the days before the millennial kingdom. These events are found 5 other times. 6 repetitions of concurrent events.

Compare Rev 16:16-21
Rev 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

To Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved (earthquake) out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, (gathered) hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (Rev 4:5 "out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices) and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And to Rev 8:5
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

And to Rev 11:18-19
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And to Rev 14:19-20
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And to Rev 19:15-21
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This is faulty exegesis. YOu are demanding that because there are earthquakes and thunders and the word wraTH, THEY AL;L MUST BE OF THE SAME EVENT. jUST NOT TRUE.

rEAD CAREFULLY THE SEALS, TRUMPETS AND BOWLS. PLACE THEM SIDE BY SIDE AND THEN COMPARE THEM. THOUGH MANY LOOK SIMILAR, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS INVOVLING DIFFERENT NUMBERS.
 

Timtofly

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It makes sense to me that John only saw 1st century martyrs in his vision. That being said, there have been 'antichrists' bringing war, famine, and pestilence, but limited to 1/4 of the earth from the 2nd-21st century. This is a recurring pattern that will continue until the 'Antichrist' is capable of killing everyone everywhere, not limited by Christian martyrs to 1/4 of the earth.
I would like to point out that 100% of earth's population is already dead living between 30AD and 1900AD. People do not keep living for thousands of years. And at no point has even 20 percent of an entire generation simply been killed in a short span of time.

But at the end of each generation all 100% are dead. So life in general is not what the 4th Seal is about where 25% of a generation is removed in a day. If the rapture happens it is assumed 25% may be raptured, at least if the claim is true about who even calls themselves "Christian". Christianity is still the largest portion of earth's population.

But even the rapture leaves behind Adam's dead corruptible physical body, and the soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Can anyone say with any certainty that no dead corpses are lying around at the 4th and 5th Seal? Even if the majority are now in the heavens in their new body?

The 5th Seal is not about martyrs. It is about being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh slain, and left on the earth to be returned to dust. The great tribulation the church comes out of is the last 1994 years of the church age.


The GT is Jacob's trouble, that is why 144k of Jacob are sealed and on the earth during the Trumpets. The church is not on earth during the Trumpets. In fact not on earth during the entire Millennium. Just like the church has not been on earth after physical death since 30AD.
 

Ronald D Milam

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One point I was making is that we do not vanish. It is the change from mortal to immortal that takes place in the twinkling of an eye and not the rapture.
I know what you mean, but we are born immortal, we either live it with God or with Satan. I guess you meant we get our Glorious bodies at that time, but I think we get them in heaven, we travel to heaven in our spirit bodies, in an instant almost.

1 Thes 4:13-17 says that some will be alive when Jesus comes. These living will also be changed to the "Spirit man" in the twinkling of an eye. The dead who already came out of their graves and are standing next to the living will then be changed into "Spirit man" and then raptured up to heaven at the same time. The rapture will be a visible event.

I do agree that there will be a rapture. It is just not found in 1 Cor 15.

I'm not sure what I got wrong in your eyes.
1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 are the exact same events. Its this simple, the dead in Christ are raised with no corruption (no sin flesh) and we are changed from corruption (sin flesh) to incorruption (spiritual body) and our spirit man is already saved, our sin body can not be salvaged, that is why the 2d man is a quickening spirit.

Why did the "hereafter" in Daniel begin with the kingdom in which Daniel was living?
Point out the "hereafter" as written in Daniel unto me.

I don't understand how you could believe that the 24 elders are excluded from the list of patterns of what already existed in heaven?
Easy, they have on the exact things promised unto those who OVERCOME the church age. They have on White Robes, Gold Crows and sit at God's Throne. So, how hard is it to read Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21 and see those promises?

Why is Jesus the last thing to be seen around the throne of God?

Rev 5:4 "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon."

Why is a man not found in verse 4 above, but a man is suddenly found below in verse 5 who is able to open the book?

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

This can only be the moment that the slain lamb entered into heaven!
Do not go down this road, this is nigh being a preterist. So, according to this mis diagnosis, you guys all go down the wrong path of having the Seals already opened up, mostly, until Seal 6 (see I know these fallacies very well). You think Jesus opened these seals long ago. You guys do not get that the Seals are NOT JUDGMENTS, they simply open up the 7 Trumps which are cloaked judgments, that is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8, did you not recognize that? The first 5 Seals are Jesus prophesying what the Judgment trumps will bring when he allows the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering on day 1260. He 1.) Conquers for 42 months (White horse) 2.) Brings Wars for 42 months (Red horse) 3.) his policies/wars bring 42 months of famine 4.) His rule brings 42 months of Sickness/Death & the Grave. 5.) He Martyrs the new converts after the pre 70th week Rapture. (These are mere prophetic utterances)

Then with Seal #6 God prophesies about God's coming Wrath. He will allow an Asteroid to strike the earth, that is why both Joel 2:31 AND the 6th Seal match, they are foretelling of God's coming wrath. In Rev. 7 the 144,000 is a code for the 1/3 who repent in Zech. 13:8-9 (5 million or so Jews) thus this chapter shows the Jews fleeing Judea JUST BEFORE God's wrath falls. Then in Rev. 8, as the 7th Seal is opened, the judgment starts via an Asteroid Impact. Trumps 1-4 are one asteroid in four different phases. It 1.) Starts fires as it breaks apart 2.) It will make impact 3.) it will possible the fresh waters via a Fallout/Wormwood 4.) The fires will cause the smoke tom dim the light of the sun & moon and cause the moon to have a red hue unto it.

So, you guys have the Seals as actual events (not unlike everyone else who just has the Seals as 70th week judgments, but they are wrong also) and think all of them are opened up already except the 6th and 7th seal. Now allow me to answer your wrong assumption with Jesus. According to you guys Jesus has to be a

NOWHERE MAN..........He was not found in Heaven, ON EARTH.........nor UNDER THE EARTH, which is of course nonsensical, Jesus would have to be nowhere. You guys take a simple verse of prose showing Jesus was the Lamb of God and try to say he was not found in heaven, so it must ne before he "BECAME THE Lamb of God" but he was also not on earth, nor under the earth, which destroys your thesis, if you would only think things through. Rev. 5:4 and 5:5 was simply showing that God indeed prepared a sacrifice, but instead of showing Jesus in the vision, they showed a Lamb of God to start with. You guys blow it all up into something it is not, without asking yourself where Jesy was, you have him on earth at this time, but he is in heaven, the Lamb was in heaven.

CONTINUED
 

Ronald D Milam

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I have stated that the conqueror does ride the white horse. The conqueror (seal 1) brings war (seal 2), famine (seal 3) and pestilence (seal 4).

The difference is that if God had allowed Antichrist to continue ruling, everyone and not 1/4 of earth would have died. Jesus on the white horse will also have authority to put to death anyone who does not serve him, 100%. For 600 years (roughly 600 BC to the 1st century), 4 kingdoms were types of these conquerors on white horses who had authority to put to death anyone who did not serve them, 100%. For the past 2000 years, all conquerors have been limited in authority to put to death only 25% of the earth who did not serve them.
The Anti-Christ conquers and all other things, during the 70th week. No in the past 2000 years. No one buys this brother but fringe people. Satan is a very crafty liar my friend.

Since the time of Pentecost, martyrs are what have prevented the next world conqueror from appearing.

2 Thes 2:2-3
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When there are not enough Christians willing to stand up against evil conquerors (seal 5 martyrs), Antichrist will arise.
The Holy Spirit working through the Church bocks the A.C. from coming forth. But that is not a part of the 70t week martyrs at all. You can't block what is here already (in the 70th week)

Daniel's 70th week is the last week of Israel's punishment. Israel was to be punished for its sin for 70 years under Babylon. For the most part, Israel did not repent from its sin during the 70 years, so its punishment was multiplied by 7 according to the law, 490 years. 483 of these 490 years are history. There is a future period of 7 years of punishment for Israel, of which 3.5 years is the period of great tribulation.
Correct

Only seals 6 and 7 contain God's wrath and these seals are parts of 2 separate stories which overlap.
No, only the 7 Trumps contain God's wrath, seal #7 opened the scroll of wrath up. Seal 6 is a Prophetic Utterance just like Joel 2:31.

I don't see an asteroid impact. I see a kingdom symbolically shown as a mountain going back into insignificance with the rest of the nations which are symbolically shown as the sea. In Revelation, 7 mountains are 7 kingdoms. In Daniel, when the 4 winds blow on the great sea, 4 nations come out of the sea.
Well, if you can't see an Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8 something is wrong with your perception brother.

Antichrist reigns for 42 months, which is the time of the great tribulation, which is not part of God's wrath. The Rev 10 vision is similar to the Dan 12:5-7 vision which concerns a time, times, and a half or 42 months. Therefore Rev 10 is part of the great tribulation. Rev 11 contains 42 months and 1260 days which are both references to the same great tribulation. Rev 12:6 and 14 same. Rev 13:5 same. Rev 14 and beyond may picture those who have come out of the great tribulation, but they are mostly the time of God's wrath.
It most certainly is a part of God's wrath, they both cover the exact same 42 months. God allows it. Rev. is only understood when we understand that ONLY the Trumps are wrath, now we understand the Seven Thunders mean 7 Trumps. And we understand why the book was both bitter and sweet. Judgment and humans dying is bitter, but judgment also brings eternal life with Jesus/God.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (15&16 are one chapter) are the 42 months of wrath, Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13 14 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citation Chapters that all happen during those 42 months, except Rev. 14 & 19 covers the full 7 years of the 70th week.

It is the death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven of the 2 witnesses that ends the period of great tribulation. This is the sign of Jesus in Matt 24:30. This is when Israel repents and accepts Jesus as Lord. This is when the Gentile rule over any part of Jerusalem will come to an end. This is not when Jesus returns!
No, they both ascend at the 2nd woe, BEFORE the 7th Vial comes. They are the 1335, thus they show up 75 days before the Beast does at the 1260 event. Thus they must also die before 75 days before the Beast dies. Its simple math brother.

Sorry if my spelling is bad, my kittie loves sitting on my right shoulder, and will not be moved, he just comes right back. Weirdest kittie I have eve seen, he's trying tom sleep as I type, lol.
 

Davy

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The tabernacle and the temple were earthly patterns of what already existed in heaven.
Aaron had 4 sons of which only 2 had children. Eleazar had 16 sons and Ithamar had 8. These 24 grandsons of Aaron were the pattern of the 24 elders which already existed in heaven, just as Aaron was the pattern for Jesus as high priest.
You should pay more attention to the actual 'context' of that Revelation chapter than trying to squeeze old covenant patterns into it. There were NO priests in Heaven during the days of Aaron. And there definitely were NO angels possessing "crowns" in Heaven then either.

Why is Antichrist's power over death limited to 1/4 of the earth? We have been given 4 examples of Antichrist in the 4 world powers of Daniel. All of them had power like King Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 5:19 "And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down."
I believe the "fourth" part is referring to categories of power over the whole earth that Antichrist will have. We know per Rev.13:4-8 that he will have power over all peoples and nations for 42 months at the end, which means over the whole earth. The stages of the locusts in the Book of Joel suggests a link. Each one of those powers in Rev.6:8 would then represent categories of powers over the earth.

Matt 24:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
All of these signs have been ongoing. These are not signs of Jesus return because they have existed since he came the first time! What was new in the 1st century is people who were filled with the Holy Spirit, the martyrs of the 5th seal, who limited nations and kingdoms from ruling the whole earth. Even the next few "signs" of Matt 24 were given exclusively for the 12 apostles in Matt 10.
Those SIGNS, the beginning of sorrows, have only been for the last couple of centuries. One could even say mostly for this present century. And they ARE... SIGNS of events LEADING UP TO JESUS' RETURN. Can you read the difference in what I said? I did not say the above Scripture is about the 'day' of Christ's coming, but one of SIGNS of the END leading up to His future coming.

Now the Matthew 24:29-31 verses indeed are... about the very 'day' of His future coming. Simple reading comprehension in God's written Word is how we know this.

Matt 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matt 10
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The big sign that Matt 24 tells us to watch for that is different than any other time is the abomination of desolation.

Excellent. This parallelism is what I believe. Jesus coming is shown at the end of the 6th seal. That is the end of this story. The next story does not begin after Jesus comes. It begins a whole new story at a whole new time. Rev 7:1-8:5 is the next story that ends with the throne of God and and earthquake just as found in the 6th seal, although the throne of God is shown symbollically as thunders, lightnings, and voices (See Rev 4:5).
Well, the 7th Seal acts as a 'pause', like the Pslams. There's 1/2 hour of silence, and in music that's what a 'rest', or pause is. In the Pslams it will say, "selah" (pause), and it means to reflect on what was just sung in the Psalms, because the Pslams mean songs.
 

The Light

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No. Nothing happened in the world when it was opened. Only John saw something about the future at that time.
The seals are not opened. John saw a vision of the seals. When they are opened, the events will occur. This is just common sense. Just like the trumpets and bowls of wrath are a vision of future events. When the trumpets are blown, the events of the trumpets will occur. You should learn the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. They are not the same.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God which is unscriptural.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
No the Ac is alive until the battle of Armageddon is over, and he is cast into the LOF.
No scriptural support for this. It's in error. The Antichrist dies before the great tribulation.
 
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