9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

[bbyrd009]

ergo a logical way to make them fit into a literal return scenario also, alright.

fwiw i perceive "Jesus is coming back tomorrow" the same way i get "free beer tomorrow." They mean the same thing to me.

 

[amadeus]

... because he is within us spiritually. Which, of course, I'm not arguing, but I'm asking if that's all the bible teaches. Does it stop there? Does it give us leave to ignore the numerous verses that speak of expecting his return and what that will bring?

Let's consider: If, as you claim, we have all Christ has promised us now, within us just waiting for us to realize it/his, full potential, why would the bible talk in a clear manner of expectation? Thus:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God...but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:18,23b) There is clear expectation of something coming, of something not yet here.

Well Jesus was certain here the first time when he was born to Mary in Bethlehem and ministered to those in and around Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago. The second begun for each of us when we received Him in our hearts. He should be working within us until He is finished, if we do not hinder Him.

when he comes on that day

(2 Thess 1:10) Speaking of a day that is not yet here...

When precisely did the glorification in you and me begin? Did He not begin His work in us when we first let Him into our hearts. What day is or was that? He came and began a serious work in me in 1976. With himself on the cross, He said, "It is finished", but for me it is not over yet. The day continues...

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

Clearly He finished the work for Himself, but not yet the work for and in us. When is the night? The night is when there is no more Light. Is not Jesus the Light? If we endure with Him to the end, there will be no night for us.

so Christ... will appear a second time

(Heb 9:28) "Appear"? Why make this distinction? Surely if what we have now is to be sufficient, this verse would not even be needed?

The second time is after the first time in Palestine 2000 years ago, but the second time is in you and me:

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: " Col 1:27

Is not the second appearance needed by each one who receives Him in his own heart?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming

(2 Thess 2:8) This verse goes one step further to link Christ's "appearing" with his "coming". If he was already here "in us" and that was all we are to expect, why this?

All of it is happening right now, and if we are allowing it, it is happening in us. What is the "breath of his mouth"? In our own heart the lawless has had the dominion and as a result we were all dead until Jesus came and the Holy Spirit began working to kill the old man in us while bring to Life the Word of God in us.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" Eph 2:5-6

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:21-23

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:3) He very clearly states here he is both leaving and coming again

Until we are prepared, Jesus has no place to lay His head. He is preparing it and when it is prepared then, and only then, will He have a place to lay his head so that where he is, there will we be able to be as well.

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

Look what David wrote long before the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem:

"I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids,
Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob." Psalm 132:4-5

And then he lets us know what the habitation is:

"For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it." Psalm 132:13-14

And then...

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: " Col 1:27

 

[bbyrd009]

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God...but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:18,23b) There is clear expectation of something coming, of something not yet here.

pitched to the perspective of someone who is still bound, or in the analogy to the people who are still using the plastic bags, and have not realized all of the self-inflicted suffering they are causing to themselves, perhaps. Or the Pacific trash sweeper that that kid invented that is being put into use might also be seen as "something coming, but not yet here." You might note that in older people there is quite often none of this "groaning," which is why i say "pitched to the perspective of someone who is still bound." We groan because we are still conflicted, in this sense.

when he comes on that day (2 Thess 1:10) Speaking of a day that is not yet here

for you perhaps, yes, but "that day" is today, ok, in another sense, or another way to put it is "each in his own time," and "that day" is completely up to you, it is a function of where you are spiritually.

so Christ... will appear a second time (Heb 9:28) "Appear"? Why make this distinction? Surely if what we have now is to be sufficient, this verse would not even be needed?

well, i don't mean to say that what we have now is sufficient, if we are still groaning. So to me this better describes how salvation is a path, that takes years to get a handle on even after any profession experience in a church, which might be characterized as the barest of beginnings, or i guess even the end of the fight for some others who are just more inclined to self-denial than me, which i must confess i have seen some altar conversions, the people that change overnight after profession.

So imo the "appearing a second time" is via looking with different eyes, what might be meant here is that a mind has been changed, or iow a perception has been altered

 

[bbyrd009]

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming (2 Thess 2:8) This verse goes one step further to link Christ's "appearing" with his "coming". If he was already here "in us" and that was all we are to expect, why this?

well, you might see that believing in Jesus and talking about being saved and loving God, these are all good first steps, but they amount to light under a basket, in a sense.

When you are a cop, say an honest cop, refusing a bribe that all of your buddies are taking, the lawless one is def revealed, right, regardless of whatever justifications the other guys used. Thorny analogy, hmm, but the long and short here is possibly that even refusing the bribe reveals the man of lawlessness, and there is obviously going to be some showdown based just upon that, whether the honest cop was to swear that he had no interest in outing the bribe takers or not, see, he has made them feel guilty, and he might even get killed for it, but nonetheless that would only make things worse in the end for themselves, or maybe buy them a little time, but change is coming one way or another, as long as the honest cop continues to remain steadfast.

Can he actually do that is another question though, see, can he really remain in Christ in that fire? Of course actually being in Christ there might even entail ratting on one's peers maybe, the equivalent of at least social suicide for a cop, if not literal. Who could remain steadfast there?

a different argument is that Jesus already said that "in a little while you will see Me no longer," so one must reflect upon this in relation to that, and resolve the dichotomy however seems best to them. How might you do it?

 

[amadeus]

@Naomi25 Continued:

So that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming...what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 2:28; 3:2) Again, John speaks of a time, not at present, when Jesus will 'come' and he will make us 'like him', because we will actually "see him". If just receiving Christ upon regeneration was "all", then much of what John, and Paul, speaks of, looses meaning.

So long as we are seeing as through a glass darkly [from I Cor 13:12] we cannot fulfill the verse in I John 3:2 .So we start with a somewhat blurred vision, but a vision nonetheless [Prov 29:18], then given the work that God has done and is doing in us, our vision will improve until we are able to see "face to face". Don't worry so much about time. Does not time belong to God? [see Ecc 3:1 f.f.]

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

(1 Cor 13:12) When will we see Christ face to face? We've already seen in verses above promises of his 'coming' or his 'appearing', and our 'seeing' him. And then we have the promises in Revelation.

We will see him face to face when the work in us is completed. If you are waiting until some point after the dirt is thrown in your face, it will likely be too late.

No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

(Rev 22:3-5)

Don't presume that all of that vision is in some future in some geographically distant place. Jesus is the Light, but He is gone from the world which leave us as the Light. We are the Light!

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

But... before Jesus went to the cross he was already said these words in prayer to the Father:

" And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

Jesus is no longer in the world, but you and I?

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

I am coming soon...Surely I am coming soon

(Rev 22:7,20) 'Coming' implies 'not yet here'.
So. Here's where we find ourselves. I say the bible clearly teaches Christs indwelling in us through the Spirit now, but also promises us a second coming. I've provided many scriptural evidences for these beliefs, they're not just based on opinion or whim.

You say that the bible only promises Christ's presence here and now through his indwelling within us. I think that leaves you the onus to provide bible verses to prove otherwise. You've given plenty of opinion, which is always nice and it helps to get to know people and how they think, but when it comes down to actually determining doctrine, unless there is plenty of biblical backing, I don't find it a compelling argument.

Jesus is indeed coming in His fullness as the Head when all of the Body of Christ is ready. The preparation has been happening in people and is happening in people. Before the Body of Christ can come, all of the work needs to be complete in each part with each part being fully in subjection to the Head and properly and fitly connected to the other parts of the Body.

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:15-16

If there is to be an "after as while", it won't matter to us if we are looking forward without being the Light we are supposed to be NOW and doing the work by the Light which now ours. Yes, He is in us, but our absolute and complete cooperation is to be right now. Yesterday is gone. Don't worry about tomorrow.

 

[bbyrd009]

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:3) He very clearly states here he is both leaving and coming again.

yes, after very clearly stating that "in a little while you will see Me no longer," if i am not mistaken right in the same passage, or at least Book. The place being discussed is not a physical place, imo, it is a spiritual state, by which i do not mean a religious ecstasy, or even an acid or mushroom trip--much closer approximations imo, btw--but really something as mundane as the fruit realized by the Pacific sea life tomorrow after changed minds have implemented a plastic bag cleanup robot, today. So the choices today anticipate the reaping of tomorrow, whatever choice is made. "You reap what you sow."

Or to put that another way, when one denies self because they wish to serve others, when that becomes stronger than the desire to serve self by just using the dang bag and not bothering to run back out to the car to get the cloth bags that you forgot, then you are where He is, even if it takes another minute to reap from that sowing. Or a hundred years, doesn't matter, when you are where He is. It is coming. It is already decided. In a hundred years, our posterity will be laughing, aghast at what we call normal right now.

You might do the same over some practice that was common 100 years ago, too.

 

[bbyrd009]

so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming

imagine the honest cop's dilemma, right in here somewhere.

 

[bbyrd009]

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor 13:12) When will we see Christ face to face?

when you open your other eyes. Or i should say when i open my other eyes lol. David Byrne puts it like "it isn't what you hoped for, is it?"

now granted, some day in the future this will surely or likely or maybe be a much more communal reaping, or maybe not, who knows, because notice the passage starts out "we" and flips to "I," telling me that something else is afoot in there, i'll have to check it out. Tense changes apropos of nothing are a signal in my woefully deficient experience there lol

 

[Naomi25]

ok, we'll try this, let me know if it is an improvement, ty
the point is to hopefully make them applicable to today, and stop expecting something different tomorrow, absent any change (of mind, or etc). And we do also have a direct quote from Christ plainly stating that He is not ever physically returning (in a short while, you will see me no longer)

How is believing Jesus could return "at any moment" not applicable for today? The whole idea behind Christ's demand to "stay awake" is to be constantly prepared for his second coming. That means living like we will, for all intents and purposes, see him momentarily. That means embracing all he has for us, now. I cannot see how that is putting things off until tomorrow. Do we expect 'better' when Jesus returns? Well, sure. No sin. Jesus face to face...the bible verses back me up. Clearly something to long for, and if Paul, Peter and John longed for it, what makes us any different?

Also, you say that we have a direct quote from Jesus stating he is not ever physically returning. I beg to differ.


Your Sorrow Will Turn into Joy

[16] “A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” [17] So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?” [18] So they were saying, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.” [19] Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? [20] Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. [21] When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. [22] So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. [23] In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. [24] Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. - John 16:16-24

Sounds to me like Jesus is explaining to his disciples that he must leave, but he will be back. In fact if we look at context, this is just after he explains to them that if he does not go, the Holy Spirit will not come to dwell within them. So this passage tells us that Jesus leaves so the Holy Spirit can come and do his work, but that when that work is finished at the end of this age, Jesus will return. In fact, this passage supports Christ's second return.

because Christ is a choice, available to us now, that we nonetheless often choose against whenever it suits us. For instance the ocean is clogged with plastic bags, but they are way cheaper than hemp "plastic" bags, because we subsidize the petrol people and penalize the hemp people, and pretty much everyone is aware of this now, but we are still using plastic bags, see.

So, really, you believe that when it all comes down to it, a Christian should be able to achieve sinlessness before death then. We just choose not to. And so all Christ's promises to us of a sinless life and a sinless world is not a reality because we choose plastic bags over the hemp ones...so to speak. Care to back any of that up with scripture? Any scripture?

even as we ignore the extinctions and keep using plastic; or perhaps among those with enough maturity to bring their own bags, maybe
well, when we all convert to planet-friendly bags, the sea life currently in hell because of us will certainly be praising God i am sure, to stick with the analogy.

So the initial indwelling, this highly religious concept, might be as simple as one coming to realize that plastic is destroying the environment, and at least not being blind to it, and realizing that steps need to be taken, which is still a long way from bankrupting the petrol bag industry that we currently subsidize, that would cause a second coming, if you will, of health and vitality for the ones currently suffering, who are btw basically right below us in the food chain.
hmm. Even when you are using a plastic bag, Christ has not gone anywhere, you have just forgot about Him because it is easier to serve yourself, in a manner of speaking. And i purposely asked for an example that many or most would not consider having to do with sin at all, to get to "plastic bags" btw.

I'm sorry. You're brushing aside all those scriptures, fairly blatant, clear scriptures, without a single bible verse of your own to back up your own theory? Perhaps instead of talking about bags, you should address the biblical expectation of Christ's return; his 'coming', 'appearing', of our 'seeing' him. All pretty clear words found in the bible.
You may feel that Christians today are not embracing what Christ has for them now enough...and that is certainly a valid topic and you might have many good points there; but you seem to be missing the forest for the trees here. Just because a Christian is longing for and ready for Christ's return, which the bible does teach, does not mean they are, or are not, missing the here and now of what Jesus has for them.
I feel like I'm throwing verses at you that prove Christ's second coming, and yet you're just trying to tell me that I'm missing out. Which is interesting, because you don't really know me or know my walk with Jesus. But it does make me wonder if we're going to get anywhere....

i understand, and what you are asking is completely fair. There are some, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age," "the kingdom of heaven is within you," "in a little while you will see Me no longer," "I am against your charms that you sew on sleeves, to make people fly like birds" or "to make a soft landing for them," and some others in this vein, i'll come back with a couple more prolly, but understand that there is going to be a logical way to understand these too, ergo a logical way to make them fit into a literal return scenario also, alright.

I have no proof that Jesus will not ever literally return, just as they have no proof that He will, and fwiw i will tell you that as far as i know Jesus might literally return tomorrow ok, i do not know, and i am not meaning to say that is not possible; just that that inevitable seems to cause people to forget about today, wherein the sowing for tomorrow's reaping occurs.

I am completely confused. You go around saying things like "I'd sure be rethinking this "Jesus is coming back for me" jazz ok" and throwing out all sorts of comments meant to mock those who believe Jesus is coming back, but now you've just admitted that you have no idea. You admit that there are bible verses that can support the idea, and that you cannot provide proof that Jesus will not return.

So. Is it just your concern that people are "missing out" on what Jesus is offering now that has you concerned about the whole "rapture" thing? Because I strongly advise you move past it. Yes...people go slightly nuts over it all, I heartily agree. They get it wrong all the time. But if you go around telling people...teaching people, something that is contrary to what the bible teaches, that's dangerous, and I cannot think Jesus would approve, would you?

Now, quite apart from those who go slightly nutty over the end times (and yeah, they're out there, but denying Christ's return ain't gonna stop them), I don't know a single person who's 'forgotten about today' because of thinking about Jesus' return. If anything, it has the opposite effect! How can it not! If anything, thinking that "the master of the house" was never to return...well, that's when all the servants (that's us by the way!) get slack about their duties. No. The bible clearly teaches that our master is coming home. Will he find us being faithful? Will he find us awake?

 

[bbyrd009]

How is believing Jesus could return "at any moment" not applicable for today?

because believing Jesus could return "at any moment" means that Jesus has not "returned" for you already, see, when He already assured you that He "will always be with you."

The whole idea behind Christ's demand to "stay awake" is to be constantly prepared for his second coming.

this is a dialectic way of saying that that person waiting is not awake, a Scriptural tongue-in-cheek if you will. "It is finished," ok, Jesus has already done everything that He is ever going to do for you. I know this does not ring true for you right now, but you are seeking, right, and so you are going to be finding, and what you are going to find is that Jesus never left your side. @amadeus has a better way of putting this, maybe we can talk him into a paragraph on it.

That means living like we will, for all intents and purposes, see him momentarily.

i can't think of a better way to keep a basically bloodthirsty little god/napoleon from completely running amok, myself, and if you don't think that is an accurate description of us in general i would direct you to the gun thread, or the NFL thread, etc.

You are going to see Him momentarily, and it might even be today, ok, but if it isn't then it will be tomorrow, if you just keep asking/seeking/knocking. The kingdom of heaven is within you, see, and if you are waiting for Jesus to bring it, or bring it back from somewhere, then it follows that you do not see it within you, right? So then, you long to see Christ returning, as He promised, and as Paul etc spoke to, as a perspective, on purpose, because that describes us before we find Word, and the only change that is going to ever occur is in your perception

That means embracing all he has for us, now.

amen, i hope (pray) that this happens for you, now. A word here; "it isn't what you hoped for, is it?" is how David Byrne puts the experience. There is often an initial let-down. We are talking about a conceptual cliff here, that you must step off of, into the air/atmosphere. If i say anything more, you are going to accuse me of being drunk at the third hour of the day! The same accusations you will start getting when it happens.

I cannot see how that is putting things off until tomorrow. Do we expect 'better' when Jesus returns? Well, sure. No sin. Jesus face to face...the bible verses back me up. Clearly something to long for, and if Paul, Peter and John longed for it, what makes us any different?

tag for later

 

[amadeus]

because believing Jesus could return "at any moment" means that Jesus has not "returned" for you already, see, when He already assured you that He "will always be with you."
this is a dialectic way of saying that that person waiting is not awake, a Scriptural tongue-in-cheek if you will. "It is finished," ok, Jesus has already done everything that He is ever going to do for you. I know this does not ring true for you right now, but you are seeking, right, and so you are going to be finding, and what you are going to find is that Jesus never left your side. @amadeus has a better way of putting this, maybe we can talk him into a paragraph on it.

Jesus finished His work, but have we finished ours? Many, including even some on this forum, are perhaps too quick to say Jesus did all that was necessary. What Jesus did, I believe, is to open the Way into the Garden,into the Tree of Life that was closed when Adam and Eve were put outside. We, all of us were born outside, which means we had no Life and no access to Life, until we met the Master. A person who is dead is certainly not paying much if any attention to the things of God. How can we get on the inside where we will be able to partake of the Tree of Life?

While we were all born dead and therefore effectively dead and blind to the things of God, God did not leave us without hope. God spoke His Word which since God is really timeless as men know time, means what He said has always applied:

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

For example in the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy we see many blessings and curses spoken by God to His people, Israel. If the person worked one way he received a corresponding blessing, while if he worked the other, he would received the curse. So it ever is with God. The blessings and curses are always there. What we receive is up to us. We always have the choices.

Even being effectively dead and deaf and blind, there is a bit of Light which will show us the right direction to start:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

Our work needs to be done. Jesus opened the Way , but also provided all that we need to enable us for our task. Jesus is indeed here with us all of the time, but if we don't acknowledge it and make use of His help to get to where God wants us, we will never get there.

Peter stepping out on the water represents our case for us. Peter needed to do to step out of the boat and look at Jesus and then walk to Him. He started out right, but then he took his eyes off the Lord. Jesus was still right there to help when he messed up.

 

[bbyrd009]

I cannot see how that is putting things off until tomorrow. Do we expect 'better' when Jesus returns? Well, sure. No sin.

so stop sinning

Jesus face to face...the bible verses back me up. Clearly something to long for, and if Paul, Peter and John longed for it, what makes us any different?

nothing at all, but i use the same device, saying "we" when i really mean "you all," and what Peter Paul and Mary were doing is speaking to our perspectives, not their perspectives, because believe me they already knew that Christ was always with them by the time they wrote.

Also, you say that we have a direct quote from Jesus stating he is not ever physically returning. I beg to differ.

"...in a little while you will see Me no longer."

Your Sorrow Will Turn into Joy

[16] “A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” [17] So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?” [18] So they were saying, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.” [19] Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? [20] Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. [21] When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. [22] So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. [23] In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. [24] Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. - John 16:16-24

Sounds to me like Jesus is explaining to his disciples that he must leave, but he will be back. In fact if we look at context, this is just after he explains to them that if he does not go, the Holy Spirit will not come to dwell within them. So this passage tells us that Jesus leaves so the Holy Spirit can come and do his work, but that when that work is finished at the end of this age, Jesus will return. In fact, this passage supports Christ's second return.

um, wouldn't that be "asking something of" Him? Didn't Christ already plainly state that He is with us, even to the end of the age?

So, really, you believe that when it all comes down to it, a Christian should be able to achieve sinlessness before death then.

hmm. i dislike this, because if you wanna bake a cake, you gotta break some eggs, right? If you want to get pure gold, you have to create some dross.

A better reply might be given if you would volunteer the last time someone came to you privately with some complaint against you--i don't need details, just when, the date. And if you feel led, the outcome.

We just choose not to. And so all Christ's promises to us of a sinless life and a sinless world is not a reality because we choose plastic bags over the hemp ones...so to speak. Care to back any of that up with scripture? Any scripture?

whatever you bind in earth is bound in heaven, and vicy-versy, that one. A little child will lead them also applies here imo. But notice that "a sinless world" is an assumption, that you cannot quote Scripture for yourself, ok.

I'm sorry. You're brushing aside all those scriptures, fairly blatant, clear scriptures, without a single bible verse of your own to back up your own theory? Perhaps instead of talking about bags, you should address the biblical expectation of Christ's return; his 'coming', 'appearing', of our 'seeing' him. All pretty clear words found in the bible.

when you do this to the least of these, you have done this to Me, and He has never left you and will always be with you, even to the end of the age, so see Christ, face to face in that concept, and see that this requires a change in perception on your part, not a thing that Christ still needs to do that you are waiting for.

You may feel that Christians today are not embracing what Christ has for them now enough...and that is certainly a valid topic and you might have many good points there; but you seem to be missing the forest for the trees here. Just because a Christian is longing for and ready for Christ's return, which the bible does teach, does not mean they are, or are not, missing the here and now of what Jesus has for them.

so you say, but you are looking for the kingdom to come, with your eyes, and we are plainly told that the kingdom is within us, right.

I feel like I'm throwing verses at you that prove Christ's second coming, and yet you're just trying to tell me that I'm missing out.

well to be fair it is you telling me that you are waiting for the kingdom to come, see. So if you are happy, then i am happy. Don't find love until you are ready. Prolly you should not even be paying any attention to me i guess

Which is interesting, because you don't really know me or know my walk with Jesus.

i agree, but also you might be surprised, too. I know from this convo what you think Word is, and i know that you are waiting for Jesus to "come back," which infers that you have, must have, some other beliefs too, as they are all part and parcel of a perspective, and there is nothing wrong with having a perspective, ok. You had beliefs when you were younger that you no longer hold, and you will have beliefs in the future that supersede the ones you have now.

But it does make me wonder if we're going to get anywhere....

see now how you have suggested that we might be "going somewhere," the same way you might perceive that you want Jesus to "come somewhere." cont'd

 

[bbyrd009]

But it does make me wonder if we're going to get anywhere....

some teachers keep learning, and others do not, right. I would hate for you to think that i am doing anything other than offering a perspective.

I am completely confused. You go around saying things like "I'd sure be rethinking this "Jesus is coming back for me" jazz ok" and throwing out all sorts of comments meant to mock those who believe Jesus is coming back,

well, what i am hearing is that i will have to change my speech there, if i am perceived as mocking, because really all i mean to convey there is "keep an open mind."

but now you've just admitted that you have no idea.

well, what i did is allow that i do not know squat, and i am not here to teach anything. These are perspectives, and you are not going to believe like i believe, this whole exchange might have occurred for you to get one, single thing, one passage from me, that you might use, i don't know. "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." (
This is a bad translation of the Kalama Sutta — so bad, in fact, that it contradicts the message of the sutta, which says that reason and common sense are not sufficient for ascertaining the truth.

And it’s very common as well.

Here’s the original version, from Access to Insight:

“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.)

(if you like i can dig up the Scripture for this)

You admit that there are bible verses that can support the idea, and that you cannot provide proof that Jesus will not return.

except in direct quotes from Jesus and Ezekiel that have already been provided, and empirical evidence, correct. Scripture is written in such a way that this is not possible, and you can note that the rapture people also have no "proof" for you, either. You pick the perception that reflects your heart.

If you wanted to really test this particular concept, you might (compare it to your former belief in Santa Claus) go read Ezekiel 13, starting at v17, (but get context starting from v1), and tell me what you think Ezekiel is talking about there, about what the "women prophets" are doing. And don't be looking for facts or proof, because no one can read English any better than you can ok. You decide.

So. Is it just your concern that people are "missing out" on what Jesus is offering now that has you concerned about the whole "rapture" thing? Because I strongly advise you move past it. Yes...people go slightly nuts over it all, I heartily agree. They get it wrong all the time. But if you go around telling people...teaching people, something that is contrary to what the bible teaches, that's dangerous, and I cannot think Jesus would approve, would you?

may God strike me dead if i am intentionally misleading anyone, and all i can tell you is that i believed Rapture doctrine for many years, and only lost my belief in it after a lot of searching. By all means, as long as the doctrine serves you, or your perspective on anything for that matter serves you, then go with that.

Now, quite apart from those who go slightly nutty over the end times (and yeah, they're out there, but denying Christ's return ain't gonna stop them), I don't know a single person who's 'forgotten about today' because of thinking about Jesus' return.

all i can do is reiterate there, sorry. A person who believes that Jesus is physically returning someday in a manner that they can see with their eyes by definition cannot see Christ in others, today, at least in a sense. I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name that You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are one. See, the prayer was not that you wait for Jesus to return so that you might be "one," the prayer is for you to "be one, as We are one."

If anything, it has the opposite effect! How can it not! If anything, thinking that "the master of the house" was never to return...well, that's when all the servants (that's us by the way!) get slack about their duties. No. The bible clearly teaches that our master is coming home. Will he find us being faithful? Will he find us awake?

will He find you being one, as We are one? The Bible clearly teaches that "all go to the same place" too, why don't you believe that?

 

[bbyrd009]

meant to mock those who believe Jesus is coming back

fwiw i mock that they "know" this, and/or state it as a fact, when they do not know, not that that is any excuse

 

[bbyrd009]

consider all of the Scripture that is rendered moot for every generation except some special snowflake one with the rapture perception.

35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?"
36Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37And as for what you sow--you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed, perhaps of wheat or another grain.

how much clearer can it be?

 

[bbyrd009]

and i'll say this, too; most pastors know this stuff, they just can't tell you it. You stand about a 1 in 10 chance of surprising a pastor with "the Bible is not the Word," but, like the lesson of Nehushtan, these truths simply are not conducive to church as a business. Doesn't mean they aren't good people, or don't care. That is just "How You Become a Pastor," there isn't any other apparent path, at least to most perceptions.