9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

[bbyrd009]

That he will make the heavens and earth new. That he will be make us new. How about the verses that tell us to long for his return?

these all have spiritual interpretations, see, that are no less valid, and likely more valid than the literal ones

 

[bbyrd009]

How do you dismiss these clear verses?

dismiss? I merely suggest looking with different eyes, Naomi, not dismissing anything. Christ "appears" when He is revealed, making the Revelation as valid for any 1st century believer as for us, iow the whole Book of Revelation is not, after all, prognostications applicable to a single generation in some unknown future, but rather a description of the Revelation of Christ in the Body of Christ, as that revelation unfolds to us, each in his own order.

So another way to say that is that i dismiss those verses literally because i now know that the eyes i am being called to interpret those through are not literal, but spiritual. "21no one will say, 'Look here!' or 'There!' For you see, the kingdom of God is among you."
23They will say to you, 'Look there!' or 'Look here!' Don't follow or run after them.

(wherein we can note some Scriptural dialecticism going on here, right, "no one will say..." "They will say to you..." lol. Different subject; never mind for now)

 

[bbyrd009]

So, what, you think that generation by generation we get closer to sinless perfection? I hardly think so. What you are describing is an increase in living conditions brought on by technology and a society that is financially sound. Morally I wouln't think our Great-Grandparents would think our 'today' all that great at all, and as things are going, most likely our Great-Grandkids could find themselves in jail should they stand up for their Christian beliefs.

well, i have to agree that tares grow with the wheat, yes. And i doubt our concept of "perfection" much interests God anyway. We do not know what we will become, and i am not meaning to say that we won't be different tomorrow, or that the kingdom fully manifested on earth will not look different than what we see today, none of that.

But you might note, just for instance, the moral progress we have made; incest and nambla, once socially acceptable, are now frowned upon, war (our chief economic engine btw), is now quickly being found out for what it is, "all wars are banker's wars" etc. (not saying that is true or not; the point being that war is no longer celebrated quite so universally)

 

[bbyrd009]

Besides, I was not talking society in general, I was talking about the state of our heart and souls...believers. Saved, yes. Regenerated, yes. Perfect? no. How then are we to understand the bible when it tells us of when we can look forward to a place/time when there will be no more sin or tears or heartache? Do you really expect it to be on this Earth? Even if Christians had the capacity to reach 'perfection' after walking with Christ for many years, there will always be 'baby' Christians, which means mistakes will be made. As well as unsaved people...this world will never, ever be the promised 'restored Eden' where there will be no more tears, death or pain.

so you say, but we can at least agree that heaven will come to earth some kind of way; and Scripture even tells us that the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of God, right. and i suggest that your perspective here is...not unusual, even widely shared by believers, but we for instance do not have the perspective of, say, a 90 year old here, who might provide a diff view of how to avoid "sin or tears or heartache," or actually whether those should even be "eradicated" in the manner a younger person might like them to be or not, and etc. Because, as you say, there will always be new seekers replacing the old, yes.

"How then are we to understand the bible when it tells us of when we can look forward to a place/time when there will be no more sin or tears or heartache?"

by changing your mind, or changing how you perceive these things. I have not experienced "sin or tears or heartache" much in years, personally; even if you might describe some of my adventures as "a living hell" or whatever maybe. It is about perspective, i think. At least mostly.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not really sure what you're saying here, or the point you're trying to make, sorry. Are you, perhaps, saying that despite Christ taking ALL our sins upon himself, so that we are faultless in God's eyes, we are still expected to live in "that which we made"...because, reap what you sow?

yup. "Your sins are forgiven" but you must still live with the consequences. And, another aside here, see that it doesn't matter much if you are forgiven ("Who told you that you were naked?"), if you still feel guilt or shame that separates you from God, you are still going to be separated from God, whether forgiven or not. As we can also witness through our kids imo; you forgive your child all of their sins, mostly done in ignorance, right, but you can also observe that the child must recognize the consequences of their sins, otherwise they just repeat them, and also how what i will term "too much forgiveness" enables the child to, essentially, escape the consequences, and they get worse, not better.

 

[bbyrd009]

If that is what you are saying, I have two points to make against it. 1: why would Jesus take ALL our sin upon himself if he were not intending to make us completely free of what sin costs.

why would a parent forgive all of their child's sins if they were not intending to make little psychopaths, lol,

or, do you have a Scripture that reflects your idea here? That one may not reap what they sow? Being Scripture, imo it should be in there, along with "reap what you sow," but dang if i can think of it. Of course the wages of sin is death, right, and we are given a method to escape this spiritual death, if we avail ourselves of it, so it is developed there i guess.

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it not a bit odd to then go...oh, but we'll just suck it up and live in this hell hole we made.

yes, i agree, but then see how "this hell hole we made" is a perspective of yours, but not necessarily...the only perspective. It is actually indicative of where your heart currently is, but i don't want that to be taken wrong. I vaguely get that you are referring to, like Current Events or whatever, Current World Events as related by the MSM? And i have just finished a summer turning a depressed and abandoned part of Flint back into like cherry orchards and drum circles, and grape arbors under stands of pine, etc, haven't paid too much attention to the news lately iow, but i can testify that many people living in Flint right beside me thought they were in a hell hole, too. But i note that their cable was still on lol, if you get me.

We're talking about people who would step on real grapes on the way to the grocery store to buy tasteless sugar balls, ok. All perspective.

 

[bbyrd009]

Wrong. I'm sorry. Just, wrong.

ha, well that is possible i guess, i'll just repost it and if you could refute what seems wrong to you, we can just put that idea through the fire and we'll see i guess

well, i do not discount or ignore them at all, i only suggest reading them with different eyes. Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly; Christ did not come so that people could say that they believe Him or even believe in Him, and that they can hardly wait to die to go to heaven and be with Jesus, and simultaneously believe that Jesus might come back to earth bodily and accept that crown that He has already rejected several times in Scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. [23] I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. - Philippians 1:21-23

BAM, i encourage you to depart and be with Christ, leave the world any way you can, and be absent from the body, that you might be present with the Lord. Iow understand the implications of "Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell." Because obviously he is not contemplating like suicide or whatever, right? A different message is being relayed here. "Will i choose to serve myself, in my next decision, or will i choose to deny myself, and follow Christ?"

 

[bbyrd009]

But I cannot and will not put aside all those verses that, especially when put together, paint a picture so vivid and sure!

ok, and i am not asking you to, please understand. I am suggesting that you keep an open mind there, for when you get discouraged about your current understanding, if that ever even happens ok. Iow someone, right now, is in a different place in their path, between us somewhere perhaps, and they have perceived a counterfeit in their current beliefs, which can easily lead to an apostasy if they do not change their minds and read those passages with spiritual eyes.

because as much as i might love for Jesus to bodily return tomorrow myself, having believed that for like 30 years, the truth is likely different, and it is at least possible that that perspective comes mostly from a mind that has not changed, and is still mired in "literal," like a little kid being told to "wait for the present."

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't understand how you can not see or not care about these clear promises

well, i understand, but i don't see how they are made applicable only to tomorrow, and moot for today, myself.

 

[Naomi25]

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow"

Well, the context of the verse is:

[34] “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. - Matthew 6:34

And we're back to 'worrying' being different from 'thinking on' or 'thinking about.'

nothing wrong with that, but at some point in your walk you might, so maybe keep an open mind there

What...at some point in my walk I may not look forward to his return? How on earth do you figure that? Sorry, that makes no sense, regardless how you may see his return being in a 'spiritual' sense, now or later.

well, it is a theme developed throughout the Bible, Christ thanks God that wisdom is hidden from the wise and revealed to little children, etc. It is just another way of saying that you might interpret a passage one way while someone else interprets it differently, and neither can be conclusively disproven.

You speak of Matt 11:25, but I think you have thoroughly misunderstood this section of scripture and how it implies to us. God has not given us his word which is then partly hidden from us. No...we are his children, and when we first walk with him we begin being fed with milk as children are, but we grow into him and into a full understanding of his word.
The world, now, it has a form of wisdom, but it is not the wisdom of God:


[6] Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. [7] But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. - 1 Corinthians 2:6-7

Jesus spoke often if Parables, and he told his disciples why:

[10] Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” [11] And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. [12] For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. [13] This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. [14] Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
[15] For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’


[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. [17] For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:10-17

Is some of his word hard to determine? Yes. Will Christians disagree over secondary issues? Yes. Is there purpose behind both these things? I believe so, yes. As long as his children can remain Christlike and loving when discussing their differing opinions, then how can any conversation that brings God and his word to the foremost of people attention be a bad thing?

how about all the verses that say He will never leave you, here with you always, or even the verses that plainly say "you will not see Me again," etc. So, all in the interpretation. One valid one might be that Christ "returns" when He is revealed in you, and you recognize that He was always with you, and you start consciously manifesting Him.

"Consciously manifesting him"? Wow. That sounded just a little new-age-y.
How about this. I believe that scripture cannot and will not contradict itself. You say that too many verses say he can't physically return, so we must discount the ones that say he does. Is there a solution? I think so.
Can Jesus be 'with us now', so that he 'never leaves us'. Could he have truthfully have said to the disciples that they will "not see me again". And can the verses that speak of his physical return (that I have provided, there are many) also be true?
You bet! Jesus is always with us, even to the end of the age, though the Spirit. This is not a 'second best prize', so don't see me saying so. The Spirit is a wonderful day by day empowering presence that gives us strength to live by faith and peace, setting our eyes on Christ. Hardly second prize! Clearly the disciples did not see Jesus again, not before they passed from this life. And, yes, Jesus will come again, physically, at the end of this age. So...it's not really all that difficult to make all the verses fit together. They do so naturally and wonderfully!

 

[bbyrd009]

What...at some point in my walk I may not look forward to his return? How on earth do you figure that?

because you will see Him come down in the same way that you saw Him go up, and once that happens you will no longer be looking for a literal return. The kingdom of heaven is within you, see. Christ is always with you, even to the end of the age. It is put other ways, too, but the point is essentially that if you are waiting for Jesus to come back tomorrow, you cannot hardly be manifesting Him today.

Christ is revealed, inferring that He is also concealed.

 

[bbyrd009]

God has not given us his word which is then partly hidden from us.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of ...
biblehub.com/matthew/11-25.htm
At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed ...
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I ...
biblehub.com/luke/10-21.htm
In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and ...

 

[bbyrd009]

No...we are his children

who is "we?"

sorry for the separate posts, my scroll-up button still broken

 

[bbyrd009]

"Consciously manifesting him"? Wow. That sounded just a little new-age-y.

ya, sorry, gotta find a better word i guess, it is just doing after all, but "works" is a bad way to put it, and "manifesting" is just more quick and concise than "doing good deeds consciously."

 

[bbyrd009]

So one would get the idea that God plays the math game.

or possibly that God is just speaking to rampant eschatology that was prevalent even then, and allowing one to get that idea if it suits them, yes.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Consciously manifesting him"? Wow. That sounded just a little new-age-y.

fwiw i was kind of led to use manifesting because that is the term used by the Bible
Bible Search: manifest

 

[Naomi25]

because you will see Him come down in the same way that you saw Him go up, and once that happens you will no longer be looking for a literal return. The kingdom of heaven is within you, see. Christ is always with you, even to the end of the age. It is put other ways, too, but the point is essentially that if you are waiting for Jesus to come back tomorrow, you cannot hardly be manifesting Him today.

Christ is revealed, inferring that He is also concealed.

Ok. I'm finding it difficult to deal with you numerous separate posts. But this one here seems to be the gist of the disagreement. You think the bible teaches Christ will not 'return physically' because he is within us spiritually. Which, of course, I'm not arguing, but I'm asking if that's all the bible teaches. Does it stop there? Does it give us leave to ignore the numerous verses that speak of expecting his return and what that will bring?

Let's consider: If, as you claim, we have all Christ has promised us now, within us just waiting for us to realize it/his, full potential, why would the bible talk in a clear manner of expectation? Thus:

• For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God...but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:18,23b) There is clear expectation of something coming, of something not yet here.
  
• when he comes on that day (2 Thess 1:10) Speaking of a day that is not yet here...
• so Christ... will appear a second time (Heb 9:28) "Appear"? Why make this distinction? Surely if what we have now is to be sufficient, this verse would not even be needed?
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming (2 Thess 2:8) This verse goes one step further to link Christ's "appearing" with his "coming". If he was already here "in us" and that was all we are to expect, why this?
  
• And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:3) He very clearly states here he is both leaving and coming again.
  
• so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming...what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 2:28; 3:2) Again, John speaks of a time, not at present, when Jesus will 'come' and he will make us 'like him', because we will actually "see him". If just receiving Christ upon regeneration was "all", then much of what John, and Paul, speaks of, looses meaning.
  
• For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor 13:12) When will we see Christ face to face? We've already seen in verses above promises of his 'coming' or his 'appearing', and our 'seeing' him. And then we have the promises in Revelation.
  
• No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. (Rev 22:3-5)
• I am coming soon...Surely I am coming soon (Rev 22:7,20) 'Coming' implies 'not yet here'.

So. Here's where we find ourselves. I say the bible clearly teaches Christs indwelling in us through the Spirit now, but also promises us a second coming. I've provided many scriptural evidences for these beliefs, they're not just based on opinion or whim.

You say that the bible only promises Christ's presence here and now through his indwelling within us. I think that leaves you the onus to provide bible verses to prove otherwise. You've given plenty of opinion, which is always nice and it helps to get to know people and how they think, but when it comes down to actually determining doctrine, unless there is plenty of biblical backing, I don't find it a compelling argument.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok. I'm finding it difficult to deal with you numerous separate posts.

ok, we'll try this, let me know if it is an improvement, ty

But this one here seems to be the gist of the disagreement. You think the bible teaches Christ will not 'return physically' because he is within us spiritually. Which, of course, I'm not arguing, but I'm asking if that's all the bible teaches. Does it stop there? Does it give us leave to ignore the numerous verses that speak of expecting his return and what that will bring?

the point is to hopefully make them applicable to today, and stop expecting something different tomorrow, absent any change (of mind, or etc). And we do also have a direct quote from Christ plainly stating that He is not ever physically returning (in a short while, you will see me no longer)

Let's consider: If, as you claim, we have all Christ has promised us now, within us just waiting for us to realize it/his, full potential, why would the bible talk in a clear manner of expectation?

because Christ is a choice, available to us now, that we nonetheless often choose against whenever it suits us. For instance the ocean is clogged with plastic bags, but they are way cheaper than hemp "plastic" bags, because we subsidize the petrol people and penalize the hemp people, and pretty much everyone is aware of this now, but we are still using plastic bags, see.

Thus:

• For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God...but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:18,23b) There is clear expectation of something coming, of something not yet here.
  
• when he comes on that day (2 Thess 1:10) Speaking of a day that is not yet here...
• so Christ... will appear a second time (Heb 9:28) "Appear"? Why make this distinction? Surely if what we have now is to be sufficient, this verse would not even be needed?
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming (2 Thess 2:8) This verse goes one step further to link Christ's "appearing" with his "coming". If he was already here "in us" and that was all we are to expect, why this?
  
• And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:3) He very clearly states here he is both leaving and coming again.
  
• so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming...what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 2:28; 3:2) Again, John speaks of a time, not at present, when Jesus will 'come' and he will make us 'like him', because we will actually "see him". If just receiving Christ upon regeneration was "all", then much of what John, and Paul, speaks of, looses meaning.
  
• For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor 13:12) When will we see Christ face to face? We've already seen in verses above promises of his 'coming' or his 'appearing', and our 'seeing' him. And then we have the promises in Revelation.
  
• No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. (Rev 22:3-5)
• I am coming soon...Surely I am coming soon (Rev 22:7,20) 'Coming' implies 'not yet here'.

So. Here's where we find ourselves. I say the bible clearly teaches Christs indwelling in us through the Spirit now,

even as we ignore the extinctions and keep using plastic; or perhaps among those with enough maturity to bring their own bags, maybe

but also promises us a second coming. I've provided many scriptural evidences for these beliefs, they're not just based on opinion or whim.

well, when we all convert to planet-friendly bags, the sea life currently in hell because of us will certainly be praising God i am sure, to stick with the analogy.

So the initial indwelling, this highly religious concept, might be as simple as one coming to realize that plastic is destroying the environment, and at least not being blind to it, and realizing that steps need to be taken, which is still a long way from bankrupting the petrol bag industry that we currently subsidize, that would cause a second coming, if you will, of health and vitality for the ones currently suffering, who are btw basically right below us in the food chain.

You say that the bible only promises Christ's presence here and now through his indwelling within us.

hmm. Even when you are using a plastic bag, Christ has not gone anywhere, you have just forgot about Him because it is easier to serve yourself, in a manner of speaking. And i purposely asked for an example that many or most would not consider having to do with sin at all, to get to "plastic bags" btw.

I think that leaves you the onus to provide bible verses to prove otherwise. You've given plenty of opinion, which is always nice and it helps to get to know people and how they think, but when it comes down to actually determining doctrine, unless there is plenty of biblical backing, I don't find it a compelling argument.

i understand, and what you are asking is completely fair. There are some, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age," "the kingdom of heaven is within you," "in a little while you will see Me no longer," "I am against your charms that you sew on sleeves, to make people fly like birds" or "to make a soft landing for them," and some others in this vein, i'll come back with a couple more prolly, but understand that there is going to be a logical way to understand these too, ergo a logical way to make them fit into a literal return scenario also, alright.

I have no proof that Jesus will not ever literally return, just as they have no proof that He will, and fwiw i will tell you that as far as i know Jesus might literally return tomorrow ok, i do not know, and i am not meaning to say that is not possible; just that that inevitable seems to cause people to forget about today, wherein the sowing for tomorrow's reaping occurs.