9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

[Copperhead]

or how bout when you die and Jesus still has not come back in the manner you were expecting, because you did not understand that He was always here with you? Talk about a thief in the night, huh? Yikes, i guess ol' Esau would suddenly have some relevance to a believer then, huh.

I'd sure be rethinking this "Jesus is coming back for me" jazz ok, i mean you can go read in Acts about disciples who thought the same thing, and Paul was collecting donations for them a couple years later, right. See, they all misunderstood, too.

Good point. For any of us, this day could be our last. Good reason to start the day off with some time in fellowship with the Lord. Besides, the day just plain seems to go better when we do that.

 

[Naomi25]

or how bout when you die and Jesus still has not come back in the manner you were expecting, because you did not understand that He was always here with you? Talk about a thief in the night, huh? Yikes, i guess ol' Esau would suddenly have some relevance to a believer then, huh.

I'd sure be rethinking this "Jesus is coming back for me" jazz ok, i mean you can go read in Acts about disciples who thought the same thing, and Paul was collecting donations for them a couple years later, right. See, they all misunderstood, too.

Yeah...I'm getting the feeling you're a person who thinks Jesus is not actually returning at all. Am I right? Christ in me, so that's all I need? Which would be swell, except that's not all that Christ promised us.
Ok. I don't really want to get into it, because...well. I just don't have the time, frankly. But here's the thing. Maybe two things. One....sin. Two...Jesus.
If you were right, and this was as good as it were gonna get, then explain sin. And I'm not talking in unsaved people, I'm talking in you, in me. As much as we walk the walk of salvation and grow towards our Savior, you or I will never get to a place in our life where we can be worthy of even a single cell in Christ's body. Which means we are still, basically, as much as we may try not to, be adding to this fallen world. And fallen world it is.


[19] For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. [20] For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope [21] that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [23] And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. [24] For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? [25] But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. - Romans 8:19-25

Point number two: Jesus. The reason I believe this is not as good as it's gonna get, is because what was purchased for me, was purchased by the work of Christ. Are you seriously going to look around at the world today, at the frustrations you have in your own life, at your own self and your constant stumbling (and I'm asking this based on my own frustrations, not because I know you at all) and say that this is the best He could do? His sacrifice was once for all, perfect, complete. And yes, each and every Christian needs to spend his or her life working on a close and growing relationship with our God and Savior, there is no doubt there. But to discount half the promises found in scripture? To take away from what he has done for us, what he has purchased for us? No.


How can you ignore verses that speak of 'That Day', or of His return? Goodness. One could (and plenty probably have) write a whole book on just those references alone! Just picking a very, very few, we read the bible and see passages like this:


[18] For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. - Romans 8:18


[10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. - 2 Thessalonians 1:10


[7] “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” - Revelation 22:7

[20] He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! - Revelation 22:20

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah...I'm getting the feeling you're a person who thinks Jesus is not actually returning at all. Am I right?

to that i will say that i do not know what tomorrow will bring, and the Bible tells me not to dwell on tomorrow at all, and Christ has assured us that He is already with us, "even to the end of the age."

so, it is my opinion that the Bible has been written in such a way so as to be seen and not seen, and interpreting those many vv to mean a physical return of Jesus just violates too much other Scripture to be valid, although i did believe that for many years, 20 years or something, yes.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you were right, and this was as good as it were gonna get

well, i'd like to stop you right here first, because we all pretty much have this perspective, and imo it is basically a lack of appreciation for what we have. This lack likely manifests in statements/beliefs along the lines of "yesterday was better than today, the world is getting sicker by the minute," etc, which Solomon tells us are not coming from wisdom.

So, i am not saying that this is as good as it gets, by any means; if you were to describe some mundane details of your daily existence to even your great-grandparents they would likely suspect that you were joshing them. And similarly, if your great-grandkids could describe their details at age 30 to you, likely the same result. So, changing your mind is likely as much about changing your perspective as anything else.

 

[bbyrd009]

Point number two: Jesus. The reason I believe this is not as good as it's gonna get, is because what was purchased for me, was purchased by the work of Christ. Are you seriously going to look around at the world today, at the frustrations you have in your own life, at your own self and your constant stumbling (and I'm asking this based on my own frustrations, not because I know you at all) and say that this is the best He could do?

not at all, but here i would reflect upon how one spoils their children, by giving them "the best" without them having earned it--so to speak, ok, i don't want to get into a works argument here, it's an analogy--so, experienced it or whatever. How would you learn that you reap what you sow that way, iow?

 

[bbyrd009]

But to discount half the promises found in scripture?

well, i do not discount or ignore them at all, i only suggest reading them with different eyes. Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly; Christ did not come so that people could say that they believe Him or even believe in Him, and that they can hardly wait to die to go to heaven and be with Jesus, and simultaneously believe that Jesus might come back to earth bodily and accept that crown that He has already rejected several times in Scripture.

Both perspectives are Esau, despising his birthright, i think, but regardless, you are either the body of Christ or you are not, and if you are, then yes, you are under servants even though you are heir to everything right now, and we might even detect in all of us "grown-ups" who feel like you do--because i feel that too, quite frequently, don't get me wrong--a little child lamenting not being a grown up yet, and how wonderful life will be as a grown-up, when no one will need Santa Claus anymore because they will have Jesus then--meaning they don't have Jesus now, even though Jesus assured you that He would be with you always.

So see you are reading statements logically and this gives you a preconceived idea in your mind of how they will manifest, and then you are--we are, whatever--insisting that this vision in your mind (and most others, i guess) is a "promise," not maybe reflecting upon other Scripture that clarifies the picture, or at least that should inform the vision, but apparently is not.

Because i tell you that there is quite a bit of Scripture to suggest that the Day of the Lord that you anticipate with such desire turns out to be a different thing IRL anyway, and you think things are rough now, just wait til the iron scepter comes down on your head lol.

I mean, i dunno ok, but i would overcome the stress, if you are stressed--which likely means that you have not left the world anyway, tbh--and see that those promises are for you, today, not some prognostications about some special, future generation of the Body that will see Jesus bodily return. Talk about discounting half of Scripture lol--just make all of those promises applicable to a single generation, and boom.

 

[bbyrd009]

How can you ignore verses that speak of 'That Day', or of His return?

i might ask you the same thing, see, when you insist that "that day" is not today.

Goodness. One could (and plenty probably have) write a whole book on just those references alone!

oh, surely libraries of books written by people who do not understand and published by wolves who want to propagate that misunderstanding are and will continue to be written, yes. The second one suggests that Jesus is coming back tomorrow, possibly, then you know they are lying, or ignorant, or however you wanna put it. Or at least you know they are violating other Scripture in counselling you to worry or even just dwell in tomorrow, which we have been expressly commanded not to worry about.

 

[bbyrd009]

See, Jesus might come back tomorrow, for all i know. I don't know, and i don't care. The argument that i should care because my neighbor is lost and needs for me to tell him about Jesus is not valid, even if it is compelling, and those vv are just logically misconstrued also.

He can seek his own salvation too, and if anyone would like to argue this point i am game, and prepared to demonstrate how proselytizing = satan.

 

[Copperhead]

See, Jesus might come back tomorrow, for all i know. I don't know, and i don't care.

So it is improper to talk about such things with a expectation and looking forward to His coming? While you may not care, that is not a license to speak against others who do.

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 (NKJV Strong's,) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[bbyrd009]

So it is improper to talk about such things with a expectation and looking forward to His coming?

i would say that it is possible, especially if it occludes a truth, which is what i suspect is going on by design anyway, with, strangely enough, God's blessing imo. Because if you are looking for Jesus to come back tomorrow, see, to save you again or whatever, then by definition you cannot be looking for Christ today.

and i did this for 20-30 years, ok, i am not meaning to condemn looking forward in anticipation to Christ reigning in the New Jerusalem. But when it becomes making guesses about what might happen in the world tomorrow rather than the Revelation of Christ in a seeker today then imo Christ becomes occluded in the deal, and as we can witness God is certainly not glorified.

So you tell me, is it improper, i dunno, but is God glorified, well that is obvious now huh.

 

[bbyrd009]

Look, we have a lesson on this in Acts, hiding in plain sight, all of the Jerusalem Christians living in communist harmony that we never hear a sermon on because of the commie overtones i guess? And it isn't stated in Acts, but we know Paul was collecting donations for them a couple years later, right? these people all thought Jesus was coming back tomorrow too, ok. The Apostles evinced much the same understanding while Jesus was still with them. Judas' act could be characterized as that of a believer who just thought maybe he would manipulate Christ into accepting the crown that He had already rejected multiple times, by forcing the issue with the Sanhedrin, confident in Jesus' ability to overcome them if He wanted to.

But see, He didn't then, and He doesn't want to now, for the exact same reasons, which are not going to change, or at least do not appear to be any time soon. Are you still hearing of wars and rumors of wars? Then what are we even talking about? You are not even in the right generation, and almost surely not even in the right era, unless you think wars are about to end next month.

This is all strictly vanity and attention-getting, or vanity and attention-giving to the wrong thing, no matter how it is dressed up

 

[Heb 13:8]

You are not even in the right generation, and almost surely not even in the right era, unless you think wars are about to end next month.

Fig Tree Generation - 1947 + 70 years = 2017 Psa 90:10, Matt 24:32-35

Dan 9:26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Timeline.. HEAVENLY SIGN 2017

 

[Copperhead]

Many generational time lengths are covered.

1897 - First Zion Congress held - 2017 = 120 years. Time God gave before the great flood of Noah's day.

1917 - Balfour Declaration allowing Jews to return to the land - 2017 = 100 years

1947 listed above.

1967 - Israel recaptures all of Jerusalem - 2017 = 50 years. Possible Jubilee, but no one certain. Also 1917 (mentioned) - 1967 another possible Jubilee.

Kinda hard to dismiss as coincidence.

 

[bbyrd009]

Fig Tree Generation - 1947 + 70 years = 2017 Psa 90:10, Matt 24:32-35

i was already pretty sure 1948 had nothing whatsoever to do with "fig tree generation," and as far as i am concerned you are just reinforcing that opinion. Not surprising to me that i wrote like a page in 3 posts, and this is the snippet you have chosen to expound upon, either.

 

[Copperhead]

i was already pretty sure 1948 had nothing whatsoever to do with "fig tree generation," and as far as i am concerned you are just reinforcing that opinion. Not surprising to me that i wrote like a page in 3 posts, and this is the snippet you have chosen to expound upon, either.

It's possible there is no significance to 1948. However there might be. Credit for this goes to Grant Jefferies, not me.

In Ezekiel 4, the prophet is told to lie on one side then the other, for a total of 430 days, which equals years of punishment for the nation. 70 of those ticked off in Babylon. That left 360.

Now Leviticus 26:18 is an obscure little tidbit that claims if Israel remains in disobedience, their punishment would be increased seven fold. Since only a remnant returned from Babylon, the majority remained disobedient. Israel never became an independent nation again till 1948. All those years after the return of the remnant from Babylon, the land remained under the control of other nations.... Babylon, Greece, Rome, Ottoman Empire, Great Britain, to name some.

Now take those 360 years remaining punishment. Multiply by seven fold, and that is 2520 years. All the prophetic calendars are on a lunar 30 day cycle, 360 days a year. But the solar calendar is 365.25 days a year.

2520 x 360 = 907200 days. That number divided by 365.25 days of the solar year is 2483.8 years. The decree from Cyrus to return and rebuild the temple was in 537 BC in the fall. That would be -536.4 for math calculation.

2483.8 + (-536.4) is 1947.4. There is no zero year between BC and AD, so we add one year. That comes to 1948.4, or roughly May 1948 when modern Israel became a independent nation.

Could be coincidence, but when it comes to the things of the Lord, I have come to believe there are no such things as coincidences.

UN 181 was passed in 1947 giving Israel the territory to become a nation again.

 

[bbyrd009]

1948 when modern Israel became a independent nation.

or a completely Dependent Country, but eh let's not quibble, right?

Nice post otherwise, and i don't mean to imply that i am not as interested in what might happen tomorrow as the next guy, ok.
I just for whatever reason am much more inclined to stifle that desire, might even be some sour grapes going on maybe, dunno

i don't think all that math is in the Bible so people can prognosticate about tomorrow tbh

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, it is an interesting thing. Regarding a similarity to this, Daniel said there would be 69 weeks of years from the time the decree went out to restore the city (not the temple which was a different decree), until the Messiah would be cut off. The math has been done by others and documented. And Yeshua held those folks accountable for knowing it in Luke 19:44. So one would get the idea that God plays the math game.

 

[Naomi25]

to that i will say that i do not know what tomorrow will bring, and the Bible tells me not to dwell on tomorrow at all, and Christ has assured us that He is already with us, "even to the end of the age."

so, it is my opinion that the Bible has been written in such a way so as to be seen and not seen, and interpreting those many vv to mean a physical return of Jesus just violates too much other Scripture to be valid, although i did believe that for many years, 20 years or something, yes.

Firstly, I'd say that the bible does not "tell us not to dwell on tomorrow at all"....it tells us not to worry about tomorrow. Big difference. But if we look at all the other things scripture encourages us to do, and I'm not just talking about the Lord's return here, then we see the 'dwelling' upon the future is not a sin, it is wise. Especially if we do so in light of Christ. How will my walk with Jesus call me to lead my family, take this or that job, enter into community, be a part of the Church. How many of the parables Jesus himself told are about being wise with the gifts God has given us...forward thinking with our faithfulness and trust at the forefront.
And I cannot see that looking for his return is any different. And I'm sorry, but I cannot make out what on earth you mean by the bible being written in a way as to be "seen and not seen". And too many verses are made invalid by the belief of Christ's physical return? Ah...really? How about all the verses that specifically state outright that he will come again. That he will make the heavens and earth new. That he will be make us new. How about the verses that tell us to long for his return?

[28] so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. - Hebrews 9:28

[4] And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. - 1 Peter 5:4

[28] And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. [29] If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. -
1 John 2:28-29

[4] When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. - Colossians 3:4

[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. - 2 Thessalonians 2:8

[14] to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, - 1 Timothy 6:14

[8] Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8

[13] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, - Titus 2:13

How do you dismiss these clear verses?

well, i'd like to stop you right here first, because we all pretty much have this perspective, and imo it is basically a lack of appreciation for what we have. This lack likely manifests in statements/beliefs along the lines of "yesterday was better than today, the world is getting sicker by the minute," etc, which Solomon tells us are not coming from wisdom.

So, i am not saying that this is as good as it gets, by any means; if you were to describe some mundane details of your daily existence to even your great-grandparents they would likely suspect that you were joshing them. And similarly, if your great-grandkids could describe their details at age 30 to you, likely the same result. So, changing your mind is likely as much about changing your perspective as anything else.

So, what, you think that generation by generation we get closer to sinless perfection? I hardly think so. What you are describing is an increase in living conditions brought on by technology and a society that is financially sound. Morally I wouln't think our Great-Grandparents would think our 'today' all that great at all, and as things are going, most likely our Great-Grandkids could find themselves in jail should they stand up for their Christian beliefs.
Besides, I was not talking society in general, I was talking about the state of our heart and souls...believers. Saved, yes. Regenerated, yes. Perfect? no. How then are we to understand the bible when it tells us of when we can look forward to a place/time when there will be no more sin or tears or heartache? Do you really expect it to be on this Earth? Even if Christians had the capacity to reach 'perfection' after walking with Christ for many years, there will always be 'baby' Christians, which means mistakes will be made. As well as unsaved people...this world will never, ever be the promised 'restored Eden' where there will be no more tears, death or pain.

 

[Naomi25]

not at all, but here i would reflect upon how one spoils their children, by giving them "the best" without them having earned it--so to speak, ok, i don't want to get into a works argument here, it's an analogy--so, experienced it or whatever. How would you learn that you reap what you sow that way, iow?

Not really sure what you're saying here, or the point you're trying to make, sorry. Are you, perhaps, saying that despite Christ taking ALL our sins upon himself, so that we are faultless in God's eyes, we are still expected to live in "that which we made"...because, reap what you sow?

If that is what you are saying, I have two points to make against it. 1: why would Jesus take ALL our sin upon himself if he were not intending to make us completely free of what sin costs. And 2: The bible teaches that God did not just redeem mankind because he loves us. Yes, of course he loves us, but he redeemed us because in doing so he brings more glory upon himself. How glorious is it that the God of the universe, who has been sinned against, yet turns around and sacrifices his son to completely free us! It is just and right for us to praise and glorify him! Is it not a bit odd to then go...oh, but we'll just suck it up and live in this hell hole we made.

well, i do not discount or ignore them at all, i only suggest reading them with different eyes. Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly; Christ did not come so that people could say that they believe Him or even believe in Him, and that they can hardly wait to die to go to heaven and be with Jesus, and simultaneously believe that Jesus might come back to earth bodily and accept that crown that He has already rejected several times in Scripture.

Wrong. I'm sorry. Just, wrong.


[1] “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. [4] And you know the way to where I am going.” - John 14:1-4

[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. [23] I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. - Philippians 1:21-23

I don't dispute that Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, he said so Himself; but that does not discount his second coming at all, nor does it discount this world remade.

Both perspectives are Esau, despising his birthright, i think, but regardless, you are either the body of Christ or you are not, and if you are, then yes, you are under servants even though you are heir to everything right now, and we might even detect in all of us "grown-ups" who feel like you do--because i feel that too, quite frequently, don't get me wrong--a little child lamenting not being a grown up yet, and how wonderful life will be as a grown-up, when no one will need Santa Claus anymore because they will have Jesus then--meaning they don't have Jesus now, even though Jesus assured you that He would be with you always.

So see you are reading statements logically and this gives you a preconceived idea in your mind of how they will manifest, and then you are--we are, whatever--insisting that this vision in your mind (and most others, i guess) is a "promise," not maybe reflecting upon other Scripture that clarifies the picture, or at least that should inform the vision, but apparently is not.

Because i tell you that there is quite a bit of Scripture to suggest that the Day of the Lord that you anticipate with such desire turns out to be a different thing IRL anyway, and you think things are rough now, just wait til the iron scepter comes down on your head lol.

I mean, i dunno ok, but i would overcome the stress, if you are stressed--which likely means that you have not left the world anyway, tbh--and see that those promises are for you, today, not some prognostications about some special, future generation of the Body that will see Jesus bodily return. Talk about discounting half of Scripture lol--just make all of those promises applicable to a single generation, and boom.

I'm sorry, but your thoughts are a little hard to follow. But let me just say this: I am not hanging all my hopes on a future return of Christ. I have plenty of hope and promise right now. It allows me to live my life with joy and with peace and with a purpose as I move through my days.
But I cannot and will not put aside all those verses that, especially when put together, paint a picture so vivid and sure! Jesus has made a promise to his bride; he will come for her. I don't understand how you can not see or not care about these clear promises, but you most certainly are not going to change my mind, I'm sorry. You've not given any scripture for your opinions, you've given nothing, really, to even give me leave to biblically consider it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Firstly, I'd say that the bible does not "tell us not to dwell on tomorrow at all"

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow"

And I cannot see that looking for his return is any different.

nothing wrong with that, but at some point in your walk you might, so maybe keep an open mind there

And I'm sorry, but I cannot make out what on earth you mean by the bible being written in a way as to be "seen and not seen".

well, it is a theme developed throughout the Bible, Christ thanks God that wisdom is hidden from the wise and revealed to little children, etc. It is just another way of saying that you might interpret a passage one way while someone else interprets it differently, and neither can be conclusively disproven.

And too many verses are made invalid by the belief of Christ's physical return? Ah...really? How about all the verses that specifically state outright that he will come again.

how about all the verses that say He will never leave you, here with you always, or even the verses that plainly say "you will not see Me again," etc. So, all in the interpretation. One valid one might be that Christ "returns" when He is revealed in you, and you recognize that He was always with you, and you start consciously manifesting Him.