amazing!!!H. Richard said:
how u abuse Christians by deliberately and knowingly (I SO tend to presume) twisting their words.. what a slap in God's face
a list of people who don't make it to Heaven
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how u abuse Christians by deliberately and knowingly (I SO tend to presume) twisting their words.. what a slap in God's face
you make it sound like everyone is saved??junobet said:
If so, that is totally heresy!
Jesus said that few make it to Heaven.. Mt 7 .. Lk 13.. Revelation
I agree.. and it was when those men said Jesus' works were from the devil that Jesus began warning about the sin against the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sinH. Richard said:
which is
to reject Christ's forgiveness, even to the point of death. (any sin is forgivable if repented of)
Jesus knew, hearing those men speak (about how his works were done by the power of Satan), that their souls had already virtually been sold out to the devil... What they said was not the unforgivable sin.. what they said was merely a symptom of their having sold out to the devil (long b4 they said such lying things)
my words are totally being either misunderstood or deliberately twisted to say something I had no intention of sayingjunobet said:
what I meant was that I am tired of hearing HUMANS speak of God's mercy vis a vis their sinfulness.. as they are (or could be) just using his mercy as a license to sin and to condone sin...
once saved always saved is totally and absolutely UNBIBLICAL.. a lie from the pit of Hell
Here lies the issue, but it is so strange, that the only ones who talk about "licence to sin" are those who insist on teh law. Grace is here because of our flesh, it is impossible for men to "not sin", that is why Christ came, so we would not be "condemned by our sin", or as Paul put it,
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
and that is why it says,
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I do hope you ask Jesus about it, so He can give you "revelation"{.
Think of me as an heretic if you like, but for as long as you pray the Nicene Creed I won’t return the compliment. Over here in Europe the term has a bit of a medieval ring to it and is not exactly associated with Christianity’s finest hours. The same goes for preaching fire and brimstone. As the historian and NT-scholar Richard Bauckham put it: “no traditional Christian doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment. Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before. The alternative interpretation of hell as annihilation seems to have prevailed even among many of the more conservative theologians. Among the less conservative, universal salvation, either as hope or as dogma, is now so widely accepted that many theologians assume it virtually without argument.“ (http://theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_universalism_bauckham.html)ScaliaFan said:
He also points out that universalism was a widely held view among early Christians. Probably because Christianity wasn’t intertwined with the state yet and because universal salvation – for reasons I’ve already given – just makes more Biblical/theological sense. To me anything but universal salvation would insinuate that the Gospels aren’t “good news” and that God isn’t almighty. So I believe that God wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and accomplishes just that (John 12 3:2; John 19:30).
As for Mt 7 and Lk 13: it’s because so few people could find the narrow gate that God put a big light there (John 8:12). And in his commentary on the Book of Revelation above mentioned Richard Bauckham explains the hope that's actually in there.
And for all that gnashing of teeth you’ll find Jesus talking about: My Mom once used to tell me she’d throw me out of the window if I didn’t stop doing xy. I didn’t believe for a second that she would actually ever do that. Why did I stop doing xy anyway? Not because of fear, but because I love my Mum and wanted to be a good girl that pleases her.
But if you must believe in eternal punishment, I strongly recommend taking a closer look at Mt 7. You may find that basking in the thought of other people burning in hell is a sure step towards getting our own feet hot. ;-)
Of course I can only speak for myself.H. Richard said:
And the Bible tells me that God’s wrath does not last forever (Psalm 103:9-10). Instead it says: ““I’ll put my Law within them and will write it on their hearts. I’ll be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a person teach his neighbour or his relative: ‘Know the Lord.’ Instead, they’ll all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord. “Indeed, I’ll forgive their iniquity, and I’ll remember their sin no more.” (Jer. 31:33a-34)
IMHO this new covenant Jeremiah talks about got sealed at the cross.
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
This "new covenant" was made to the house of Israel under the Law of Moses. Read the context. It was not made to the Gentile grace church. It tell us what God will do for the Jews in the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this earth.junobet said:
No, it did not get sealed at the cross. The cross represents the sheading of Jesus' blood for the forgiveness of the sins of mankind. But it only pays for the sins of those that believe it does. The wrath of God is the outcome for those that don't.
H. Richard said:
As for your idea of the 1000 reign: we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Like most Christians I stick to amillennialism, but going into that would drive us completely off topic.
As for the topic at hand:
Concerning Jeremiah I’m afraid it is you who got the context wrong. He speaks of two Covenants, the first of which is the Mosaic one, which the Israelites violated. Hence the wrath of God: the Babylonian invasion and all the suffering that Jeremiah so vividly describes. But then - in Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Jeremiah gives this glimmer of hope: the promise of a new covenant. These very verses are also quoted in the New Testament, where it is made very clear that the new covenant Jeremiah prophesized about was indeed finally sealed with the blood of Christ (Hebrews 8-9).
So what do you think happened on the cross? You agree that Christ shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins of all mankind, but you think God’s sacrifice’s success is dependent on men’s free will to believe in Christ or not? Or that God predestined the vast majority of humankind not to believe and thus to be condemned to hell? How would such a God be almighty or good?
Well, my non-Christian friends may think this chauvinistic of me, but contrary to you I trust that Christ, who came to save the world, will indeed do just that and will draw everybody to himself, be it in this life or the next:
“For it is written,
“As certainly as I live, declares the Lord,
every knee will bow to me,
and every tongue will praise God.”"
(Romans 14:11, referencing Isaiah Isa 49:18; 45:23)
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
So you believe the 1,000 year reign is just my idea.junobet said:
Rev 20:1-4 - Satan Bound 1000 Years.
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
NKJV
Heb 8:7-10
A New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34) 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah —
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV
As I see it the scriptures say the new covenant will (future) be made to the house of Israel. Are you a member of the house of Israel?
Yep the 1000 years is just my imagination since there is no support for it.
H. Richard said:
[SIZE=medium] No, I’m well aware that it is an idea that became quite popular in recent years, especially among American evangelicals. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Take a closer look: All that Rev. 20:4 says is that “the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus” reign with Christ 1000 years. That isn’t the same as Christ reigning for a 1000 years. If you believe in the Trinity, undoubtedly Christ reigns for all eternity rather than just a thousand years. And when you have a look at how the number 1000 is used throughout the Bible, you’ll find that it is a symbolic number indicating completion. So the most common interpretation among Christianity is that the martyred Saints are reigning with Christ right now and they will reign with Him until God deems the church-age complete and the Second Coming is due.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Of course the verses you highlighted use[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] the future tense. These verses are an almost direct quotation of [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Jeremiah[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]! And Jeremiah was written about 600 years before Hebrews when the New Covenant in fact still was a thing of the future. The point Hebrews makes is that Jeremiah’s ancient prophecy about the New Covenant was finally fulfilled in the crucifixion. So when speaking about the New Covenant Hebrews itself uses the present tense: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]” (Hebrews 8:6)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=small]11 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.[/SIZE] [SIZE=small]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]eternal redemption.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]” (Hebrews 9:11-12)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]According to Paul I am:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Gal 3:29)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I do indeed think that there is no sound Biblical support for any kind of millennialism, but as I said: maybe we should discuss this in another thread rather than derailing this one any further. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Here I’m more interested in what’s your answer to my questions concerning the contradictions between your belief in eternal punishment for the vast majority of humankind and the belief that God is almighty, merciful and Good. Alas, you chose not to answer them.[/SIZE]
the only law we are not required to adhere to anymore is the Mosaic (Moses) Laws.. the kosher laws, etc..mjrhealth said:
It is the height of absurdity to say that God doesn't care whether we obey the 10 Commandments... and such belief is wreaking absolute havoc in the world today.. as people sin with impunity... commit all kinds of evil against their brothers/sisters.. and then scream bloody murder when someone does the same thing to them (whatever you do to the least of My brethren, you do to Me)
once saved always saved is a LIE from Hell
and so many believe it because they want to believe it... dont want to give up anything for the Lord... who gave His all for us... pathetic
Jesus said that if you love Him you will keep His commandments
when someone asked him what he must do to be saved Jesus said OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS
:wacko:
I guess you have much to learn about Grace.
Love has always being Gods way from the very beginning. I am sure you know that part of the bible,
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Thats why Jesus said,
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Do you know why this world has laws, its for the bad people, you know why God gave the Jews teh Law, to show them they where bad.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
That is why it says
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
See whom teh law is for, not those who are in Christ for they have put on His righteousness, but as teh bible says,
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
You need to understand Love, and you never will if you dont ask Jesus to show you Love.
Keep the law if you must, do not make it a stumbling block for others, you will have to answer for it one day.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Read Galtians 3.0
i sometimes wonder if the lowest part of Hell is for ex-Catholics, particularly those who... oh wait... no, not excatholics...
those who CLAIM they are Catholic... but promote abortion and other egregious offenses against God (going completely against hte teachings of the Church they claim to belong to)
Nancy Pelosi and etc....
she probably doesn't even realize she has excommunicated herself from that Church... by promoting abortion
those who CLAIM they are Catholic... but promote abortion and other egregious offenses against God (going completely against hte teachings of the Church they claim to belong to)
Nancy Pelosi and etc....
she probably doesn't even realize she has excommunicated herself from that Church... by promoting abortion
Here's from a Catholic for you:ScaliaFan said:
"Hell is to be contemplated strictly as a matter which concerns me alone. As part of the spiritual life it belongs behind the ‘closed door’ of my own room. From the standpoint of living faith, I cannot fundamentally believe in anyone’s damnation but my own; as far as my neighbor is concerned, the light of resurrection can never be so obscured that I would be allowed or obliged to stop hoping for him."
(Hans Urs von Balthasar: Prayer)
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