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Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Enoch111, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Well, this is bizarre, you are finally agreeing with me now, ...sort of? That is, you are affirming that the trinity is not explicitly expressed in the Bible, but only implicitly, and therefore, it is not 'taught', but inferred. You notice the difference, right?
    The conclusion being, the doctrine that you trinitarians believe is imperative for salvation, is not even taught, or explicitly stated in the Bible.
    You must realize how that impugns God by being deficient or slack in imparting his Word, don't you?

    And, please don't forget, I am not oneness either, Jesus was not God or divine in my opinion.

    Secondly, c'mon, Mary explicitly had other children??????
    You are really beginning to sound extremely radical, biased and reckless with scripture.

    Mark 6:3. "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.

    Matthew 13:55-56
    13:55. "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56. "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

    Mark 3:31-32
    3:31. Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32. A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."

    Galatians 1:19. But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is completely false. And one verse will refute that.

    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of [1] the Father, and of [2] the Son, and of [3] the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)

    The Father is God, but neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit
    The Son (the Word) is God, but neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit
    The Holy Spirit is God, but neither the Father nor the Son.

    Therefore we have this corresponding verse in 1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, [1] the Father, [2] the Word, and [3] the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


    Obviously you do not believe what is revealed in the Bible. So no matter what you discuss, there will be no credibility, since Jesus is God, and that is maintained in both the Old And the New Testaments. Only the cults and the Muslims reject the deity of Christ.
     
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  3. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Enoch111, you discredit yourself by one, quoting a passage that's not even in the Bible (interpolation) i.e. 1 John 5:7
    And two, by claiming that your one verse Matthew 28:19, settles the issue. Anti-trinitarians, like myself, don't deny the existence of the Father (God alone), his Son (the man, Jesus of Nazareth), nor the power of the Holy Spirit. We all are in accord with the necessary dynamics of each towards salvation. Repentance unto the Father, who sent his Son, a man, to be the mediator between God and man, and the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who believe, as a witness to their salvation and a testimony to others.

    But, there is not a single reputable Christian trinitarian that would declare that the trinity is taught anywhere in the Bible, that is, it is exclusively inferred. So even your final statement Enoch111, makes you sound extremely irrational. Not to mention extremely foolish, you're a kjvo aren't you, ...are you allowed to call others cultish?

    Enoch111, you are the one sounding extremely fanatical and incompetent, and thus, heretical.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That verse is as much an interpolation as the hundreds found in the handful of corrupt manuscripts behind modern version. There is ample manuscript and internal support for it, which we will not get into, since you obviously do not want the truth.
    If the Son were merely a man, He would not be alongside the Father and the Holy Spirit, who are God. Neither could He forgive sins. So that not only shows your specious reasoning but your refusal to accept the truth when it is shown to you from Scripture. You claimed that there was not a single verse which revealed the Trinity, and I showed you two, which you simply dismissed. Which means that you are more committed to your heresies than the truth.
    Already addressed properly and fully. The Trinity is not only inferred, it is explicitly taught in the Bible. Which means that this statement of yours is a lie.
    Your name calling does not let you off the hook. You are clearly a part of some cult which denies the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. It's a good thing that you have exposed your beliefs so that all true Christians will BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.
     
  5. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Hey Enoch111, you are really stubborn!
    One, I didn't mean to cast insults about the kjvo thing, but I just wanted to bring attention to the fact, that if your that fanatical about an English Bible translation, then it puts into question your rationale in other areas of Biblical exegesis. This is a warning to you, not a deprecation. Be sober about such subjective issues.
    Two, I reasonably explained to you, again, the subjectivity and ambiguity about the verses that you categorically claimed were trinitarian proof-text. You eisegeted the trinity into those verses, and one of those verses were entirely unbiblical (All the leading textual critics affirm this: Bruce Metzger, Daniel Wallace, James White, Michael Krueger,... ).
    Three, you truly have bastardized the Godhead by claiming the Son and Holy Spirit to be divine persons. For, three omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent persons in one being, defines redundancy to the max. Plus, you make a mockery of the Atonement, i.e. God obeying and loving himself. And you insult God by claiming that the most crucial doctrine in all of Christendom, was left completely unclear throughout Scripture (whether you admit this, or not)
    Four, the trinity is not taught from anywhere within the Bible, it is, at best, inferred, and thus, eisegeted. There's not a reasonable theologian in the world that will say otherwise.

    Enoch111, stop the bias, fanaticism and irrationality. You're sounding entirely unreasonable, and completely out there.
    Really!
     
  6. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    If I had 3 people to design and build a plane, and we set a target, for its specs and we all agreed on it, than we all 3 would be as one in accord, doesnt make us one person. God spoke from Heaven " this is my son in whom I am well pleased, while the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ shoulder, Split personality or very good party trick
     
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  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    First of all - I never claimed that the Trinity is an explicit teaching of Scripture. That doesn't makes it any less true.
    The 30 or so verses I gave you illustrate the truth of the Triune Godhead.
    For example - Jesus Christ IS God or the Holy Spirit, speaking through John is a liar:

    John 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    There is NO explicit teaching that Mary had other children - yet YOU seem to think she did, based on what is IMPLIED in the verses you listed.
     
  8. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Well, like I said, what you consider to be the most critical doctrine in all of Christendom, does not have an explicit or didactic scriptural attestation, this would put to question whether or not your exegesis, or eisegesis rather, is correct. Not to mention, the outrageous absurdity and defaming aspects of your doctrine, we feel confident to deem the theory as heretical. Wouldn't you?

    Ok, so the passages that I quoted in regard to Mary's children, yes, you are correct, they, by themselves, are implied. Therefore, are you saying that they could be construed as being from Joseph with a former, deceased wife? That, Joseph was a widower when he married Mary? Are you professing the perpetual virginity doctrine of Mary?

    I would think that this passage states that Joseph did have relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus, by the word 'until'.

    Matthew 1:24-25
    1:24. And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25. but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Another scoffer at Bible truth.
     
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Funny how you can make these claims about the evidence I gave you when YOU deny the divinity of Christ - even though it is explicitly taught in Scripture that He IS God.
    Can YOU say "Hypocrisy"?

    Isaiah 9:6
    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Matt. 4:7
    Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your GOD to the test.’”

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was GOD.

    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 20:28
    And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my GOD!”

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Hebrews 1:8
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Titus 2:13
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ
     
  11. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    I think that we went in circles a bit, ...one minute the trinity doctrine is derived from an implicit biblical attestation, and now it's back to being explicit again?
    Either way, yes, I clearly see where you feel confident that the Bible is imparting that Jesus is God. I've always been aware of these perceived trinitarian proof-text.
    One has to be aware of the many literary conventions employed throughout scripture, there is antanaclasis, hyperbole, theophoric proper nouns and appellations, etc.. In short, one has to compile the entirety of Scripture in order to make a conclusion, on any specific doctrinal or theological issue.
    All the passages that you quoted, are both undermined and overwhelmed, by the numerous times that Jesus' divinity is denied both, explicitly, and fundamentally so.
    So that ultimately, one needs to finally question what sort of ontology does God have (three identical persons in one), what sort of Atonement is effectuated with a god-man (God obeys and loves himself), what sort of ontology does our Saviour have (two incompatible natures).
    And one is obligated to ask them-self, have I rightly divided God's Word. Have I glorified God with this exegesis, have I revealed a profound wisdom behind God's Word, have I edified, or more importantly, saved anyone, with this incomprehensible confusion (you can't be convicted of something, that you can't understand)?
    Nonsense is nonsense, ....even your leading trinitarian theologians admit that they have no idea what they just concluded.
    They've confounded themselves, as every trinitarian or modalist has.
     
  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    I have addressed this - ad nauseam - and showed MANY verses of Scripture where the word "until" is used that DO NOT involve a subsequent action or consequence.

    2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
    Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

    Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
    Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

    The problem with you anti-Catholics is that you attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    The verses I listed weren't a defense of the Trinity - but the Divinity of Christ, which YOU deny.

    As for the Son and the Father - the son obeys the Father.
    They are BOTH God - but they are BOTH distinct Persons with distinct ROLES. This is the divine mystery of the Trinity.

    YOUR lack of faith doesn't make it any "less true" . . .
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Then, let's see you weasel your way out of the following verses which show that Jesus IS God . . .

    Isaiah 9:6
    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Matt. 4:7
    Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your GOD to the test.’”

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was GOD.

    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 20:28
    And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my GOD!”

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Hebrews 1:8
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Titus 2:13
    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ
     
  15. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you finally assumed my position correctly, I am anti-catholic!
    Sorry, your exegesis is extremely poor, ...remember context is king!
    BTW, how was I supposed to know that you addressed this already, i was never on those posts about this before.
    Either way, you need to reconsider your devotion to the papacy, no one is the vicar of Christ on earth (excuse the digression, but appreciate the concern).
     
  16. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Your divine mystery doesn't make you sound any more competent, or any other who deifies Christ!
    Shame on you!
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a "devotion" to the papacy.
    I recognize his God-given office and submit to it (Matt. 16:18-19).

    And you wonder why I called you an "anti-Catholic" . . .
     
  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Matt. 10:32-33
    So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

    Good luck with that . . .
     
  19. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    No, I appreciate that you called me anti-catholic, ...you finally got one of your assumptions correct.
    BOL, you're fanatical, and have been indoctrinated.
    Release yourself from the bondage and heresy of the papacy!
     
  20. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I 500% denounce the doctrine of the trinity, or any theology that deifies Christ!
    Thanks for wishing me luck, for there is a lot of heresy out there!
     
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