After the Rapture: The End of the World

[Truth7t7]

Keraz accepts the Millennium reign. His forever is already 1000 years longer than yours.

Do you also deny a literal lake of fire in conscious torment?

 

[Keraz]

Keraz accepts the Millennium reign. His forever is already 1000 years longer than yours.

I would like it better if you quoted me correctly. The 1000 year reign of King Jesus starts when He Returns. Forever; Eternity is after that.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would like it better if you quoted me correctly. The 1000 year reign of King Jesus starts when He Returns. Forever; Eternity is after that.

Your Claim Is "False"!

You live in denial of God's scriptural truth (Fact), will you continue to "Add" your Millennium On earth between verse 23-24 below, something not seen?

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Keras "Adds" A 1,000 year Kingdom On Earth Here, something not seen in scripture, Scary!

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would like it better if you quoted me correctly. The 1000 year reign of King Jesus starts when He Returns. Forever; Eternity is after that.

Your Claim Is "False"

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

"The Smoke Of Their Torment Ascendeth Up For Ever And Ever" Read It Real Slow

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I disagree with those who use these scriptures as though the torment of fire is literal that the person's thrown into the lake of fire literally feel that torment of fire for eternity. They refuse to take into consideration that death and the grave(Hades) that are also thrown into the lake of fire and are not person's do not literally feel any torment. These scriptures that show death and the grave(Hades) being thrown into the lake of fire show that death and the grave(Hades) are destroyed out of existence. That means any person's Satan and his demons and those humans who followed him will be destroyed out of existence.

Like I said some have viewed the mention here of fire and sulfur (“fire and brimstone,” King James Version) as a proof of the existence of a hellfire and that lake of fire represent literal torment for eternity for those thrown into lake of fire.

But a brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur, destroyed out of existence forever. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

 

[Timtofly]

I would like it better if you quoted me correctly. The 1000 year reign of King Jesus starts when He Returns. Forever; Eternity is after that.

The reign keeps going. The geography changes.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you also deny a literal lake of fire in conscious torment?

Not as much as you deny the next 1000 years. Your instant annihilation is not that different. The Lake of Fire is a literal Lake. Where it is located is not really given. It is as literal as the next 1000 years. It will not be as enjoyable as some people today spending a few days camping at a lake.

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree with those who use these scriptures as though the torment of fire is literal that the person's thrown into the lake of fire literally feel that torment of fire for eternity. They refuse to take into consideration that death and the grave(Hades) that are also thrown into the lake of fire and are not person's do not literally feel any torment. These scriptures that show death and the grave(Hades) being thrown into the lake of fire show that death and the grave(Hades) are destroyed out of existence. That means any person's Satan and his demons and those humans who followed him will be destroyed out of existence.

Like I said some have viewed the mention here of fire and sulfur (“fire and brimstone,” King James Version) as a proof of the existence of a hellfire and that lake of fire represent literal torment for eternity for those thrown into lake of fire.

But a brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur, destroyed out of existence forever. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

Isaiah 66:24KJV
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Isaiah 66:24KJV
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

If you compare Jesus’ words with the final verse of Isaiah’s prophecy. Is it not apparent that Jesus was alluding to the text in Isaiah chapter 66? The prophet there apparently refers to going out “of Jerusalem to the surrounding Hinnom Valley (Gehenna), where human sacrifice was once practiced (Jer 7:31) and which eventually became the city’s refuse heap.” (The Jerome Biblical Commentary) The symbolism at Isaiah 66:24 clearly is not that of people being tortured; it speaks of carcasses. What it refers to as not dying is worms—not live humans or immortal souls. What, then, is the import of Jesus’ words?

Note the comment on Mark 9:48 in the Catholic work El evangelio de Marcos. Análisis lingüístico y comentario exegético, Volume II: “[The] phrase is taken from Isaiah (66,24). There the prophet shows the two ways corpses were usually destroyed: putrefaction and incineration . . . The juxtaposition in the text of maggots and fire reinforces the idea of destruction. . . . Both destructive forces are described as permanent (‘is not quenched, does not die’): there is simply no way to escape them. In this image, the only survivors are the maggot and the fire—not man—and they both annihilate anything that falls within their power. Hence, this is not a description of everlasting torment, but one of total destruction which, as it prevents resurrection from occurring, is tantamount to final death. [Fire] is, then, a symbol of annihilation.”

 

[Truth7t7]

If you compare Jesus’ words with the final verse of Isaiah’s prophecy. Is it not apparent that Jesus was alluding to the text in Isaiah chapter 66? The prophet there apparently refers to going out “of Jerusalem to the surrounding Hinnom Valley (Gehenna), where human sacrifice was once practiced (Jer 7:31) and which eventually became the city’s refuse heap.” (The Jerome Biblical Commentary) The symbolism at Isaiah 66:24 clearly is not that of people being tortured; it speaks of carcasses. What it refers to as not dying is worms—not live humans or immortal souls. What, then, is the import of Jesus’ words?

Note the comment on Mark 9:48 in the Catholic work El evangelio de Marcos. Análisis lingüístico y comentario exegético, Volume II: “[The] phrase is taken from Isaiah (66,24). There the prophet shows the two ways corpses were usually destroyed: putrefaction and incineration . . . The juxtaposition in the text of maggots and fire reinforces the idea of destruction. . . . Both destructive forces are described as permanent (‘is not quenched, does not die’): there is simply no way to escape them. In this image, the only survivors are the maggot and the fire—not man—and they both annihilate anything that falls within their power. Hence, this is not a description of everlasting torment, but one of total destruction which, as it prevents resurrection from occurring, is tantamount to final death. [Fire] is, then, a symbol of annihilation.”

The Words From The Mouth Of The Creator, Jesus Christ, God Almighty

Annihilation, Not In The Words Of Jesus Christ Below

Luke 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Luke 16:19-32
The words of Jesus recorded at Luke 16:19-32 regarding the rich man and Lazarus are among the proofs offered in support of the teaching of hellfire. It is argued that these words tell of an incident, are a narration of what actually took place. A person who believes in hellfire so believes this story to be something that actually happened said, “Do you not think all who heard the Lord Jesus relate the story of the rich man and Lazarus, would naturally suppose He meant to teach conscious existence after death in happiness or woe?”
Let's say for the sake of argument, that his listeners did think it was an actual incident, that fact wouldn't prove that it was an actual real story but instead proves the opposite. How so? Because we are explicitly told that the reason Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations was to people such as the Pharisees and those who supported them, that they might understand?—no, but that they might NOT understand. Note his words: “To you [his disciples] it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.”(Luke 8:10) Obviously, the Pharisees who were listening if they took this story as something an event that actually happened, they were wrong for believing that.

But some further object because Jesus did not indicate in so many words that this was an illustration. But is it necessary that Jesus do this every time, he speaks to the Pharisees and their supporters, when we have the plain statement that “without an illustration he would not speak to them”? (Matthew 13:34) The mere fact that names are given cannot be used as an argument against its being an illustration, in view of all the evidence that proves that to take it literally is to outrage reason and common sense and to contradict the rest of God’s Word.

Not one word in this story is it said about Lazarus’ having been a good man, about his having had faith and proving it by works; both of which are indispensable to gaining everlasting life. (Hebrews 11:6; James 2:14-26) When are mere wretchedness, poverty and disease a guarantee of salvation?

Neither is there a word about the rich man’s having been wicked. By what kind of reasoning and by what principles of justice can it be maintained that simply because a man enjoyed the good things of this life to the full for threescore years and ten he must suffer the agonies of a burning hell for billions times billions of years, yes, for eternity? Even fallen, imperfect man appreciates that justice requires that “the punishment fit the crime,” and certainly God is more just than man. Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, all had great wealth; does that fact doom them to eternal torment?
Further, Jesus in his arguments with the Jewish clergy evinced a fine sense of logic, second to none. Would he give such a dire warning on the wages of sin and not even mention sin, or tell of the rewards of faith and obedience and not even mention them? Had Jesus meant to warn his listeners about eternal torment he certainly would have stressed these points; but he did nothing of the kind.
Not only that, but we read that Lazarus was carried off to Abraham’s bosom. Are all those gaining salvation reclining on Abraham’s bosom? If we grant that this expression is a figure of speech, why insist that what befell the rich man be taken literally? It simply does not make sense to take one part of the account literally and another parallel part figuratively.
Further note that this is the only place in the Scriptures where consciousness and suffering are associated with Hades. Nor will it do to claim that before Jesus’ death Hades had two compartments, one for the good and the other for the wicked, and that after he died for man’s sin then the good went to heaven, for at the time Jesus spoke this illustration he had not yet died. That Hades is used figuratively is apparent from Revelation 6:8, 9, where Hades is shown as riding horseback, and also at Revelation 20:14, where Hades is shown—not as being the lake of fire—but as being itself cast into the lake of fire.
Making Jesus’ words regarding the rich man and Lazarus literal becomes even more untenable when compared with what the rest of God’s Word has to say regarding the penalty of sin and the condition of the dead. Adam was not warned of eternal torment, and upon sinning was simply and plainly told: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen. 3:19; 2:17, ) Nor did Jehovah God say, “Your body will return to the dust”; no, but YOU, Adam, will do so. There is no mistaking the plain testimony of the Scriptures: “The wages sin pays is death.”—Rom. 6:23,

And what is death, the state or condition of the dead—conscious suffering or conscious bliss? No! Man dies as the beast; the dead know not anything; there is no consciousness in Sheol (Hebrew equivalent for Hades). Man’s “breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” David prayed for God to spare his life lest “I go hence, and be [yes, exist] no more.” Peter likened the wicked to brute beasts that perish. Brute beasts are not tormented after death.—Ps. 146:4; 39:13; Eccl. 3:19-21; 9:5, 10; 2 Pet. 2:12

Besides, are we not assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust? Why a resurrection if at death man receives his eternal reward? (Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29,) When the brother of Mary and Martha, Jesus’ friend Lazarus, died, did Jesus comfort those women by assuring them that Lazarus was not dead? No, but with the assurance that he would rise from the dead. His sisters knew that he would “rise in the resurrection on the last day.” And when Jesus called him forth, did he call Lazarus down from Abraham’s bosom, from limbo or from a burning hell? No, but from the grave. Incidentally, had Lazarus been conscious in any such place we may be certain he would have told all his friends about the remarkable experience he had, for he had been dead four days. His very silence on this point is strong circumstantial evidence that he was unconscious.—John 11:22-44

Besides, how could we account for Abraham’s being in heaven in view of Jesus’ words: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man”? And did not Peter on the day of Pentecost point out to his listeners that David “both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens”? (John 3:13; Acts 2:29, 34,) None of God’s servants had a heavenly reward held out to them before the coming of Christ Jesus; that is why his apostles even after his resurrection were looking to an earthly kingdom.—Ps. 45:16; Acts 1:6-8.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The millennial kingdom is in the book of revelation. Where exactly do you imagine the saints will be when the host of heaven is cast to the ground and the heavens are rolled up like a scroll?

In heaven of course! We are promised to be delivered from the wrath to come and that wrath is the great rribulation! the length of the kingdom in time is spelled out in the book of revelation.

but the characteristics and life in that kingdom on earth is shown in many many many books of the OT and in Matthew! If you would like, I can post many verses that show's life in the kingdom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We are told when Death is no more: Revelation 21:4...there shall be an end to Death.....
AFTER the Millennium as described in Rev 20.

Truth 7t7, no one here agrees with you, although you do reject the 'rapture to heaven' and correctly say the Christians are the Israel of God. But saying there is no Millennium reign of Jesus, is your serious error, when Revelation 20 plainly prophesies it.
Most of the rest of prophecy can be understood to happen just as Written.
Are we in the time when Jesus reigns over the world now?
Do the scriptures I presented in #37 apply now?

No the Israel of God is the saved Jews in teh church. Like it was told in the ot and as Paul taught in romans, and jesus taught Nicodemus.