ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

[veteran]

This is a lie. There's no nice way of putting it. You're lying veteran.

Pre-Wrath is the historical position of the early Church.
Pre-Wrath has nothing to do with Darby.

The "Pre-Wrath" doctrine is a LATER... tradition, from those like Armstrong, Lovett, Rosenthal and Van Kampen (for those interested in doing some research on it). So I am NOT lying about its later origin, YOU ARE!

The early Church fathers held to a post-tribulation coming of Christ and gathering. They did NOT mention a Pre-Wrath doctrine like what you're trying to push here. The later Pre-Wrath doctors took what the early Church said about Christ delivering His Church on the day of The LORD and they REFINED their points on His deliverance, ADDING to their ideas.


The Pre-Wrath doctrines originated with those who later began the idea of the 1260 days of tribulation being 'shortened' for the Church, with that they suggested the Church will be 'raptured' PRIOR to the final end of that tribulation period (i.e., PRIOR to the end of Daniel's final 70th week). Those kind of ideas began with views from those like the Jesuit Ribera (16th century), H. Armstrong (1930's) and C.S. Lovett (1980's).

Lovett himself originally held to the Pre-Tribulational Rapture per his own admitting, so it's not difficult to see where his ideas likely branched off from to form his Pre-Wrath position (per his 1980's book Latest On The Last Days).

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Vet, My comments were based on these words: "That's the same "new song" they will sing per Rev.14:3 and the "song of Moses" and "the song of the Lamb" per Rev.15:3." and your presumption that they are the same timing.

Rev. 5:9-10 is sung by the 24 elders just prior to the opening of the seals.
Rev. 5:11-14 is verbal praise of angels and elders at the same time. Most would believe this is prior to the 70th week.
Rev. 15:3-4 is sung by the redeemed after the rapture but before the vial judgments.

There is another song recorded in Rev. 14:3 but it is only known by the 144,000 and it is looking forward to Christ's advent after Armageddon.

They are all different songs occurring at different times. We have hundreds of gospels songs that use many of the same words but they aren't classified as the "same song"! Neither are any of these. Truth will be easier to identify when one stops clumping all these unrelated events into one big ball of confusion.

You really need to study the Tanakh (the OT) better. The "Song of Moshe (Moses)" is found in Exodus 15, and it is not the same song as the "Song of the Lamb," which may indeed be the "new song." However, in general, I do agree with you. This "clumping ... into one big ball of confusion" is what happens when one takes a simple phrase and makes it into some sort of label. For instance, the statement, "then shall be great tribulation," which means "then shall be terrible pressure" or "then shall be terrible oppression," and capitalize a couple of words and make it a seven-year (or a 3.5-year) time period, the "Great Tribulation!" It's that kind of gobbledegook that sends many theologians over the edge into the abyss of wrong-headed tangents.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, My comments were based on these words: "That's the same "new song" they will sing per Rev.14:3 and the "song of Moses" and "the song of the Lamb" per Rev.15:3." and your presumption that they are the same timing.

Rev. 5:9-10 is sung by the 24 elders just prior to the opening of the seals.
Rev. 5:11-14 is verbal praise of angels and elders at the same time. Most would believe this is prior to the 70th week.
Rev. 15:3-4 is sung by the redeemed after the rapture but before the vial judgments.

There is another song recorded in Rev. 14:3 but it is only known by the 144,000 and it is looking forward to Christ's advent after Armageddon.

They are all different songs occurring at different times. We have hundreds of gospels songs that use many of the same words but they aren't classified as the "same song"! Neither are any of these. Truth will be easier to identify when one stops clumping all these unrelated events into one big ball of confusion.

Rev.15 mentions they sing the song of Moses and the song of The Lamb.

Notice those of Rev.5 is about the REDEEMED through Christ Jesus, and that new song they sing is in relation to that redemption by Christ. And also, note there every creature, in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth are proclaiming blessing to the reign of The Father and The Son. What timing do you think that is for? certainly not for today, not yet, for all knees have yet to bow to Him today. So there's plenty of pointers there to show what timing that actually is for.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "Notice those of Rev.5 is about the REDEEMED through Christ Jesus, and that new song they sing is in relation to that redemption by Christ. And also, note there every creature, in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth are proclaiming blessing to the reign of The Father and The Son. What timing do you think that is for? certainly not for today, not yet, for all knees have yet to bow to Him today. So there's plenty of pointers there to show what timing that actually is for."

I am redeemed now, aren't you? This is a song of faith. Don't you believe that for every critter on earth there are duplicates in heaven? The original "bluepints" if you will for everything on earth now, just as the temple furnishings were duplicates of things already in heaven? It is they that are singing. I thing it will be strange indeed to hear fish sing, don't you think? Cool, yeah, but definitely strange!

Your words: "The early Church fathers held to a post-tribulation coming of Christ and gathering."

That is what Pre-wrath believes. The difference lies in how we view what the great trib entails. However, the term "post-trib" isn't accurate concerning the early church fathers. The better term would be post-persecution which is what pre-wrath believes.

 

[veteran]

I am redeemed now, aren't you? This is a song of faith. Don't you believe that for every critter on earth there are duplicates in heaven? The original "bluepints" if you will for everything on earth now, just as the temple furnishings were duplicates of things already in heaven? It is they that are singing. I thing it will be strange indeed to hear fish sing, don't you think? Cool, yeah, but definitely strange!

I am NOT interested in men's Preterist doctrines about some 'kingdom now' on earth idea as a false attempted replacement for Christ's Kingdom to come WHEN He returns to this earth, as written.

As for what the early Church believed, they held that Christ's coming and the Church's gathering was at the same timing of the "day of the Lord" events. Those events also 'include' the cup of God's wrath upon the wicked.

 

[biggandyy]

The original "bluepints" if you will for everything on earth now...

This is just neo-platonism rearing it's head again.

 

[Trekson]

Well, I never heard that word before but that doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

 

[biggandyy]

But the fact it has been refuted over the centuries from such great thinkers as Origen, Luther, Aquinas, et. al. does mean what you said isn't true. Shucks, even Islam comes against neoplatonism!

 

[dragonfly]

As for what the early Church believed, they held that Christ's coming and the Church's gathering was at the same timing of the "day of the Lord" events. Those events also 'include' the cup of God's wrath upon the wicked.

Wow! It's a relief to see someone put those understandings so succinctly!

I re-read 2 Peter 3, recently, to see whether there is any room for slipping a few centuries in between one event and another, and could find none.


1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

 

[Trekson]

Well I had to look the word up and nothing I said leans towards it. God is a creator and perhaps a "blueprint" might have been the wrong word to use but I do believe in heaven and I believe it looks a lot like Eden and is populated eternally by all of His creation and fyi, I certainly don't believe earth is the only planet is the cosmos that has life.

 

[biggandyy]

Does it matter one way or another if it is the only planet with sentient life, or are all the other planets just giant jungles like Dagobah?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "I am NOT interested in men's Preterist doctrines about some 'kingdom now' on earth idea as a false attempted replacement for Christ's Kingdom to come WHEN He returns to this earth, as written.

Being redeemed has zero to do with "kingdom now". It's just a fact by faith. Being redeemed is what happens at salvation!


Your words: "As for what the early Church believed, they held that Christ's coming and the Church's gathering was at the same timing of the "day of the Lord" events. Those events also 'include' the cup of God's wrath upon the wicked.

That is what pre-wrath believes and scripturally the day of the Lord begins with the rapture followed by the first trump. It DOES NOT all take place at some fictitious "last 24 hr. day"

Hi andy, Apparently it does to you. Are you one of those who believes God is just a ball of energy living in a lifeless void or do you see heaven as a literal place?

 

[biggandyy]

Almost a nice dodge... but it doesn't matter what I believe... I was asking about you since you brought it up. If it was covered in the thread elsewhere I apologize since I haven't followed the thread till now (when something interesting actually happened).

 

[Trekson]

No dodging, I just believe that if God can create the earth with all these animals and creatures and call His creation "good". I don't understand why people wouldn't believe he could create a perfect bigger and better "planet" ,if you will, for Himself that also includes all of His creation before the fall!

 

[biggandyy]

Just because He could doesn't imply that he did. The Genesis account is quite consistent in it's use of the world Earth in the singular and the Heavens in the plural.

But, one more time, though I'll ask my question more directly... is it your considered opinion there is sentient life on extrasolar planets? (Not CAN there be, are you of the notion there IS extraterrestrial sentient life)?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Andy, The Genesis account only gives us the information we need as it pertains to us, imo. I "know" nothing, however I do believe that heaven is much greater than many on this board can comprehend. I do not have direct knowledge of sentient life on other planets, nor did I suggest "sentient" life. With that said, I would find it hard to believe that "man" is His only sentient creation but I do not believe we will ever "meet" any, this side of heaven. Angels are sentient, the four beasts full of eyes from Rev.4:6 seem to be sentient, cherubim and serraphin (sp?) may be different forms of creation. The possibilitie are endless.

 

[dragonfly]

Did either of you (Trekson and biggandyy) look round Howard Ratcliffe's site theresnothingnew.org? Your talk of the cosmos prompted me to go back, and I found myself looking at 'Daily Updates'. His theology is an interesting blend of resolute reliance on scripture (the earth is 'fixed', for instance), and also, for using the stars to measure 'time'. He also thinks about how occultists will be interpreting the same 'times'.

And he has an interesting (biblical) take on the Middle East situation, if you read the labels going further down this page.

http://www.THERESNOTHINGNEW.ORG/index/mn40664/Daily_Updates

 

[Trekson]

I briefly checked out the site reading several paragraphs and I find him lacking in merit although seemingly well educated.

 

[tgwprophet]

To speculate on Alien Life forms on other planets, I will say this... After God rested.. did Godd begin creating anew on other planets? And if God continued creating, could the life forms he created there have a head start becasue the life forms there did not become corrupt enough the God desired to cause a floodd and re-boot that planet(s)?

 

[dragonfly]

In that Jesus Christ redeemed the whole of creation through His death on the cross, we learn that when Adam fell, the whole of creation fell.