ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: “Got a news flash for you bro, I've always held that the "day of the Lord" happens with the end of the final 70th week. One can easily see that by the chart I made for the flow of Daniel's final "one week" in the threads discussing it.”
I don’t believe I implied anything different, however, I see that as part of the problem.

Your words: “You might want to 'check' your wording above, because you first admit agreement that the 6th Seal contains "day of the Lord" event timing (which I've taught all along), and then you reverse and infer I'm creating some scheme that destroys that.”
That’s exactly what I meant, however, the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal in no way “parallels” any trumpet or vial judgment. All the different things like the seals, trumpets, thunders and vials are sequential, nor parallel.

Your words: “So which do you believe, that the Rev.6:14-17 verses are "day of the Lord" timing as it's showing there or not? Since the "day of the Lord" time events are given in that 6th Seal at the end of the Rev.6 chapter, and then in Rev.8 with the 7th Seal there's a period of silence, what do you think that's revealing? It's showing that Christ has come, and it's all over for the wicked on this earth.”

No, it’s certainly not over! The judgments will be just beginning. That period of silence is there to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 2:13 - “Be silent before the Lord, all humanity, for he is springing into action from his holy dwelling.” NLT We are silent because we know the devastating loss of souls that is about to occur! We are silent because we know it is an awesome thing to be at the mercy of an angry God! We are silent because we know some horrible things are going to happen to some of our loved ones who didn’t make it. If we’re smart, we are silent in prayer for those lost loved ones, praying that they may be spared or that the events about to happen will change their hearts and they will repent before it’s too late!

Your words: “When that event begins, it means the first day of Christ's Milennium reign. If that's not showing a parallel of the 7 signs for the end that our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse in alignment with the 7 trumpets and 7 vials written of later, then I don't know what is. Can we find the same events of those Rev.6:14-17 verses in parallel with the final trumpet in Rev.11? Yes. Can we also find the same events in Rev.16 in parallel with the final vial? Yes.”

The correct answer is NO! Babylon is not Jerusalem so the earthquakes are different. Can there be signs in the sky more than once? Absolutely! The Olivet Discourse doesn’t make it past the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal and the rapture just before the day of the Lord begins. Our redemption from Luke 21 is the rapture and it is before the trumpet and vial judgments, imo.

Your words: “It's because of what's contained within the events given that causes this relationship between the seals, trumpets, and vials. It's not something I've made up like you're wrongly suggesting.”

There is very little correlation between these events. Things just get progressively worse as humanity continuously refuses to repent.

Your words: “Case in point: when I mention the Rev.16:15 verse given within the 6th Vial timing, where our Lord Jesus is giving a warning to His Church that He's coming "as a thief", and others want to say the Church is already raptured by that point, then what and who are they following?”

As I wrote before in a lengthy explanation of Rev. 16:15, it has nothing to do whatsoever with the church. Go back and read it!

　
Your words, “It's not IF one marks the type of events given on that 7th trumpet and the 7th vial. My foundation on that is the Scripture foundation Itself which The LORD gives by that comparison. By the time the 7th trumpet comes, it's over. By the time the 7th vial comes, it's over. Both are about the time of Christ's coming and taking over reign upon this earth, literally. It takes more time to read about the sequence of events there than the time it takes for them to occur, very quickly.”

I don’t think these events occur as quickly as you think, they occur over at least a 3 ½ yr. period. Verses like Rev. 11:15 aren’t recording actual history, they are speaking forth in faith about what is soon to occur.

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran,

Since you've already decided that I'm just parroting someone's "tradition", and since you've already concluded that I'm wrong, there's nothing for us to discuss, is there? And especially as I'm not particulary interested in convincing you of my view.

That's the attitude one always gets with those on men's ideas of Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. When they have opportunity to try and back it up in God's Word they instead resort to hot air.

Your words: “You might want to 'check' your wording above, because you first admit agreement that the 6th Seal contains "day of the Lord" event timing (which I've taught all along), and then you reverse and infer I'm creating some scheme that destroys that.”
That’s exactly what I meant, however, the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal in no way “parallels” any trumpet or vial judgment. All the different things like the seals, trumpets, thunders and vials are sequential, nor parallel.

And that's the problem you are having, because they are parallel to each other. In Rev.6:14-17 it's about the time of Christ's wrath having come and those who want to hide from Him. With the 7th trumpet in Rev.11 same things, Christ reiging and the time of His wrath and more detail about His Kingdom come on earth. On the 7th vial Christ's coming and His wrath with Armageddon to take control over His enemies on the earth.

The only way to miss those direct parallels between the events of the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial is to forget what the events for each actually are, or to totally deny them in favor of following leaven traditions of men, like a Pre-trib Rapture, Pre-Wrath, Preterism, etc.

Your words: “So which do you believe, that the Rev.6:14-17 verses are "day of the Lord" timing as it's showing there or not? Since the "day of the Lord" time events are given in that 6th Seal at the end of the Rev.6 chapter, and then in Rev.8 with the 7th Seal there's a period of silence, what do you think that's revealing? It's showing that Christ has come, and it's all over for the wicked on this earth.”

No, it’s certainly not over! The judgments will be just beginning. That period of silence is there to fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 2:13 - “Be silent before the Lord, all humanity, for he is springing into action from his holy dwelling.” NLT We are silent because we know the devastating loss of souls that is about to occur! We are silent because we know it is an awesome thing to be at the mercy of an angry God! We are silent because we know some horrible things are going to happen to some of our loved ones who didn’t make it. If we’re smart, we are silent in prayer for those lost loved ones, praying that they may be spared or that the events about to happen will change their hearts and they will repent before it’s too late!

That's leaven, because the events of the Rev.6:14-17 Scripture with the 6th Seal mark Christ's coming by that. The expression of those wanting for the hills and mountains to fall on them to hide from the wrath of The Lamb, and especially the heaven departing as a scroll as rolled together, only occur once Christ appears at His coming. It's a parallel to the Rev.19:15 subject. Heaven rolling up like a scroll is an expression from Isaiah 34; might want to study that, as it's mentioned with the idea of "the day of the LORD's vengeance" (Isa.34:8).

Your words: “When that event begins, it means the first day of Christ's Milennium reign. If that's not showing a parallel of the 7 signs for the end that our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse in alignment with the 7 trumpets and 7 vials written of later, then I don't know what is. Can we find the same events of those Rev.6:14-17 verses in parallel with the final trumpet in Rev.11? Yes. Can we also find the same events in Rev.16 in parallel with the final vial? Yes.”

The correct answer is NO! Babylon is not Jerusalem so the earthquakes are different. Can there be signs in the sky more than once? Absolutely! The Olivet Discourse doesn’t make it past the signs of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal and the rapture just before the day of the Lord begins. Our redemption from Luke 21 is the rapture and it is before the trumpet and vial judgments, imo.

We're not discussing Babylon metaphors applied to Jerusalem (which is what Revelation is doing by the way), nor signs in the sky. We're discussing the events of the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial. You're wrongly placing a 'rapture' before the event of Christ's coming to gather us. Our Lord Jesus comes only ONCE, not two or three times. The time of His coming is with those events on the "day of the Lord" like The Scripture declares. His wrath on the last day is the wrath that Apostle Paul was talking about on "the day of the Lord" in 1 Thess.5.

Both Peter and Paul declare Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord", His coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Within Peter's witness of that is the burning of the elements of man's works off this earth, which is what "the day of the Lord" events contain. Christ, Paul and Peter all gave that "as a thief" metaphor for the time of Christ's coming and the day of His wrath. That metaphor is given to His Church as a 'warning' also, especially in the Rev.16:15 verse within the 6th Vial timing. The warning is for us to remain sober and on watch lest Christ's coming take us "as a thief in the night". So how does that show Christ has already come at that point and gathered His Church already? How is it you don't understand that warning would mean nothing if His Church was already raptured at that point? There would be no need for His giving it.

Nor can anyone try and apply that "as a thief" warning in Rev.16:15 to unbelieving Jews they think will be left-behind to go through the tribulation. Our Lord Jesus specifically gives that metaphor to His Church on earth, and Paul did also in 1 Thess.5 to mark the time of Christ's return as a warning to not be deceived with those who instead will be saying, "Peace and safety".

Your words: “It's because of what's contained within the events given that causes this relationship between the seals, trumpets, and vials. It's not something I've made up like you're wrongly suggesting.”

There is very little correlation between these events. Things just get progressively worse as humanity continuously refuses to repent.

There's direct correlation between those events. You've simply been taught to deny any such correlation. All your doing is making affirmations, not disproving those correlations.

Your words: “Case in point: when I mention the Rev.16:15 verse given within the 6th Vial timing, where our Lord Jesus is giving a warning to His Church that He's coming "as a thief", and others want to say the Church is already raptured by that point, then what and who are they following?”

As I wrote before in a lengthy explanation of Rev. 16:15, it has nothing to do whatsoever with the church. Go back and read it!

I'm not the one who needs to go back and do Bible study on the matter. You need to go back to 1 Thess.5 and read Paul's warning to the Church to remain sober and watching so that Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" won't take you "as a thief in the night". Christ is giving that same "as a thief" warning at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial that Paul did in 1 Thess.5. I can't help that that dumps the doctrines of men you've chosen to follow instead of the Scripture as written.

Your words, “It's not IF one marks the type of events given on that 7th trumpet and the 7th vial. My foundation on that is the Scripture foundation Itself which The LORD gives by that comparison. By the time the 7th trumpet comes, it's over. By the time the 7th vial comes, it's over. Both are about the time of Christ's coming and taking over reign upon this earth, literally. It takes more time to read about the sequence of events there than the time it takes for them to occur, very quickly.”

I don’t think these events occur as quickly as you think, they occur over at least a 3 ½ yr. period. Verses like Rev. 11:15 aren’t recording actual history, they are speaking forth in faith about what is soon to occur.

The event of Christ appearing and His wrath are the very last events of this present world. In the Rev.11 chapter with the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet events, He show they occur quickly, and that's not the first... written Scripture He gave about it. It's a subject He covered first back in the OT prophets. That's where Apostle Paul got the idea of the "twinkling of an eye" change, i.e., pulling from God's OT prophets.

But you clearly have not studied all that back in the OT prophets, nor have most of those behind the fabrication of the Pre-trib Rapture doctrines and Pre-Wrath doctrines.

 

[mark s]

That's the attitude one always gets with those on men's ideas of Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. When they have opportunity to try and back it up in God's Word they instead resort to hot air.

To your credit, Veteran, I'm certain you have no idea just how many thousands of words I've written in forum discussions on the timing of the rapture, and other eschatological topics, and that with people who strongly disagree with me.

But I know how you operate, and I'm not interested in that nature of discussion. Even now, you continue to not actually address me on a rational level, and pertaining to the topic, preferring instead to over-generalize and become insulting. I'm simply not interested.

And it is not unnoticed that you have not backed up your statements. So while you want to berate me for not wanting to engage with you, you've neglected that of which you accuse others.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[tgwprophet]

TREKSON WROTE: " Hi Terry, The short answer to your question is Yes! (words in parenthesis mine)

And she (Israel) brought forth a man child, (Christ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron(in the millennium): and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Christ's ascension as depicted in Acts 1:9-11). The next verse skips over a couple of thousand years but the "woman" is now believing or uncompromising Israel who goes into hiding, who refuse to accept the mark of the beast. This theme is repeated in vs. 13 but when they are protected by God, the 144,000 among them, then Satan turns his wrath to the Gentile church in vs. 17. The great trib is confined to that event and for the duration of that event only. The rapture of His church ENDS the great trib and the world is left to face the wrath of God which I thought included the trumpet judgments but based on the OP, I'm not sure about that now.

Many have claimed the woman is either a church or Israel. She IS a WOMAN. The second comming is Jesus reborn of woman yet again. To claim it is Israel requires an awful bi plane to fly her the the wilderness or an really big eagle. Consider the portection... for a time and times and dividing of a time.... Israel is being protected during this time that Israel is under attack? She i also given protection 42 months... so add time and times and dividing of a time to 42 months and you get 7 years...hence 7 years of Tribulation... but in your idea Israel is then hidden - removed then protectred through all of tribulation. It just don''t work. Next the woman is a church... ok not quite as big, but still a mammoth plane is needed to fly this church. And then why hide a church, if you did so, it could not be used.

The next verse skips over a couple of thousand years but the "woman" is now believing or uncompromising Israel who goes into hiding, who refuse to accept the mark of the beast.

A thousand years is skipped over??? But Revelation prophecy is fulfilled in one generation not 1000 years.

Again the woman is a woman is a woman and the child is a child is a child is Jesus. The woman gives actual birth to the second comming of Jesus who is borrn a child and ascends to Heaven. The woman is taken to a wilderness and hidden 42 months and then protected another 42 months No huge mystery, no huge plane. No remarkable worldly secular event the world cannot easily and wrongfully dismiss. But, one really huge true event as Jesus is reborn the King of Kings and Lord of Lord preparing to take his place on earth and every knee will bow.

 

[Rex]

Hi terry, good to see you,
Whats the word from the front lines?

 

[Trekson]

Terry, I see no point in going any farther because if you really believe this..."Again the woman is a woman is a woman and the child is a child is a child is Jesus. The woman gives actual birth to the second comming of Jesus who is borrn a child and ascends to Heaven."

Then for me at least, you've destroyed any credibility you might have had!

 

[veteran]

To your credit, Veteran, I'm certain you have no idea just how many thousands of words I've written in forum discussions on the timing of the rapture, and other eschatological topics, and that with people who strongly disagree with me.

But I know how you operate, and I'm not interested in that nature of discussion. Even now, you continue to not actually address me on a rational level, and pertaining to the topic, preferring instead to over-generalize and become insulting. I'm simply not interested.

And it is not unnoticed that you have not backed up your statements. So while you want to berate me for not wanting to engage with you, you've neglected that of which you accuse others.

Love in Christ,
Mark

The way I "operate" is by STICKING to The Scriptures, which is a lot different than what you're doing. Try counting the number of times I pointed to the Scripture evidence just in my previous post vs. what you're doing.

I don't hate you because you'd rather follow the Pre-trib Rapture theory traditions of men, I hate that doctrine because it is NOT from our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. And if I didn't care about my Christian brethren here that are on that false doctrine then I wouldn't speak out against it.

TREKSON WROTE: " Hi Terry, The short answer to your question is Yes! (words in parenthesis mine)

And she (Israel) brought forth a man child, (Christ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron(in the millennium): and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Christ's ascension as depicted in Acts 1:9-11). The next verse skips over a couple of thousand years but the "woman" is now believing or uncompromising Israel who goes into hiding, who refuse to accept the mark of the beast. This theme is repeated in vs. 13 but when they are protected by God, the 144,000 among them, then Satan turns his wrath to the Gentile church in vs. 17. The great trib is confined to that event and for the duration of that event only. The rapture of His church ENDS the great trib and the world is left to face the wrath of God which I thought included the trumpet judgments but based on the OP, I'm not sure about that now.

Many have claimed the woman is either a church or Israel. She IS a WOMAN. The second comming is Jesus reborn of woman yet again. To claim it is Israel requires an awful bi plane to fly her the the wilderness or an really big eagle. Consider the portection... for a time and times and dividing of a time.... Israel is being protected during this time that Israel is under attack? She i also given protection 42 months... so add time and times and dividing of a time to 42 months and you get 7 years...hence 7 years of Tribulation... but in your idea Israel is then hidden - removed then protectred through all of tribulation. It just don''t work. Next the woman is a church... ok not quite as big, but still a mammoth plane is needed to fly this church. And then why hide a church, if you did so, it could not be used.

The next verse skips over a couple of thousand years but the "woman" is now believing or uncompromising Israel who goes into hiding, who refuse to accept the mark of the beast.

A thousand years is skipped over??? But Revelation prophecy is fulfilled in one generation not 1000 years.

Again the woman is a woman is a woman and the child is a child is a child is Jesus. The woman gives actual birth to the second comming of Jesus who is borrn a child and ascends to Heaven. The woman is taken to a wilderness and hidden 42 months and then protected another 42 months No huge mystery, no huge plane. No remarkable worldly secular event the world cannot easily and wrongfully dismiss. But, one really huge true event as Jesus is reborn the King of Kings and Lord of Lord preparing to take his place on earth and every knee will bow.

I've got to side with Trekson on this Terry. The "woman" there in Rev.12 is symbolic of Israel, and part of that revealing is shown with those symbols associated with Joseph's dream of Genesis 37.

And your later idea that our Lord's Book of Revelation contains only... events about the final generation is way off base too. The first 5 verses of Rev.12 about the symbolic "woman" actually serves as a type summary of past events about Israel mixed with some future events about Christ's future thousand years reign.

 

[ENOCH2010]

TREKSON WROTE: " Hi Terry, The short answer to your question is Yes! (words in parenthesis mine)

And she (Israel) brought forth a man child, (Christ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron(in the millennium): and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Christ's ascension as depicted in Acts 1:9-11). The next verse skips over a couple of thousand years but the "woman" is now believing or uncompromising Israel who goes into hiding, who refuse to accept the mark of the beast. This theme is repeated in vs. 13 but when they are protected by God, the 144,000 among them, then Satan turns his wrath to the Gentile church in vs. 17. The great trib is confined to that event and for the duration of that event only. The rapture of His church ENDS the great trib and the world is left to face the wrath of God which I thought included the trumpet judgments but based on the OP, I'm not sure about that now.

Many have claimed the woman is either a church or Israel. She IS a WOMAN. The second comming is Jesus reborn of woman yet again. To claim it is Israel requires an awful bi plane to fly her the the wilderness or an really big eagle. Consider the portection... for a time and times and dividing of a time.... Israel is being protected during this time that Israel is under attack? She i also given protection 42 months... so add time and times and dividing of a time to 42 months and you get 7 years...hence 7 years of Tribulation... but in your idea Israel is then hidden - removed then protectred through all of tribulation. It just don''t work. Next the woman is a church... ok not quite as big, but still a mammoth plane is needed to fly this church. And then why hide a church, if you did so, it could not be used.

The next verse skips over a couple of thousand years but the "woman" is now believing or uncompromising Israel who goes into hiding, who refuse to accept the mark of the beast.

A thousand years is skipped over??? But Revelation prophecy is fulfilled in one generation not 1000 years.

Again the woman is a woman is a woman and the child is a child is a child is Jesus. The woman gives actual birth to the second comming of Jesus who is borrn a child and ascends to Heaven. The woman is taken to a wilderness and hidden 42 months and then protected another 42 months No huge mystery, no huge plane. No remarkable worldly secular event the world cannot easily and wrongfully dismiss. But, one really huge true event as Jesus is reborn the King of Kings and Lord of Lord preparing to take his place on earth and every knee will bow.

If this is a sample of what you are teaching the 2 witnesses it's no surprise that no one but you can identify them

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Folks, As I was praying and studying the Word, God pointed out something to me that I must have read a thousand times but never made the connection until today. Let me first say that this in no way backs up my timeline POV. In fact, it destroys it just as it will if you're pre-trib, pre-wrath or post -trib, if you're willing to accept the truth of God's word. We all have our little timelines that we create to make sense and put in order the events of the 70th week. Well, this nugget will assuredly destroy them all. Perhaps you think I'm being overly dramatic, well you tell me. The topic is the Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - "[sup] [/sup]And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 ( Rev.11:13) . Rev. 11:14 - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Now if we were to go in order it would seem that the 7th trump would be the third woe! IT IS NOT! I had always believed it made sense and never really considered anything else.

However, the third woe ( the last time a woe is mentioned in Revelations ) is found in Rev. 12:12 - "[sup] [/sup]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This third and final time a woe is mentioned is connected to the originating verse, Rev. 8:13 by the underlined, highlighted phrase. Since this is the case, shortly after this verse we find in Rev. 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

As we all know the highlighted, underlined phrase means 3 1/2 yrs. So here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week. That is in no one's timeline that I have ever heard. It's playing havoc with mine, that's for sure.

So I've spent the day trying to make sense of this and asking God for understanding. I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative. Please I'm asking for some serious guidance here and not a mockery by those who are unwilling to bend in the face of revealed truth.

Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 4th seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week?

What do you guys think? Serious answers only, please.

It has been said that history has a way of making fools of those who try to predict its path.

Nevertheless this fool (meaning yours truly) clings to the seemingly obsolete notion that there are causes and outcomes, that behavior results in consequences. To put it in Biblical terms, you reap what you sow.

Is this a foolish thing to believe? It isn't politically correct, that's for sure but if that's the measure of foolish projections of future events then the reader may feel free to put me on the nut list.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an old testament prophet to predict that unhappy times are in our future. To paraphrase the title of the 1962 story by Ray Bradbury, "something wicked this way comes".

My advice to one and all is to enjoy and savor this holiday season. No one knows if or when we shall see such pleasant days again. Give thanks to God whether you eat a turkey dinner or a PB&J sandwich. Remember Him who was born into the world to save us from our sins. There once was a time when that was more important than new toys. God willing it will be so again one day.

Remember God and humbly beg His deliverance in the new year. Beyond the celebrations, the bells, whistles, fireworks and glittery balls proclaiming happiness are dark clouds gathering on the horizon. They will not be swept away by proud declarations of national pride or of the human spirit. They will depart only when they have accomplished the task for which Heaven will send them.

Remember Our God who alone is able to deliver in times of peril and loss. History is not the possession of the wise or of fools but of Him who causes the rise and fall of the princes of the earth. Not for nothing is Jesus called the King of Kings. He is Lord of history and He is coming soon.

Peace on Earth to all those with whom God is pleased.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[mark s]

The way I "operate" is by STICKING to The Scriptures,

Actually, it's all the ad hominems that I was refering to. I quite enjoy a Scriptural discussion or debate, but when an opponent continues to get personal, that's where I lose interest. At that stage, the debate ceases to be enjoyable, productive, and edifying.

In this thread, that is how you came out of the gate. And I've experienced the same in other threads also. This is why I said what I did in my first post on this thread. I'm happy to discuss and debate the topic, but I'm not so happy to be insulted while doing it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[tgwprophet]

Yes Mark S, Veteran can be a hard drink of water to swallow at times and I give you that he can be insulting, but it is due to his understanding and convictions. Allow him the chinks in his armor as he allows us chinks in ours and soon repect will prevail. It is easier to re-direct a person in error or be re-directed by a person in error if enough conveyance is achieved that it is to sway a hit-and-run troll. Trolls are often easy to recognize as they leaver their profile completely blank, insult others and cannot take it when they are insulted. Please do not allow yourself to fall in that category and if it appears as though you do...change it. peace and God bless.


Enoch2010 wrote: " If this is a sample of what you are teaching the 2 witnesses it's no surprise that no one but you can identify them "
Please explain where I have ever statewd I am the only one that can identify them? Actually i have said others know them as well. Next please elaborate with details on exactly what sample(s) you speak of, that I may rebutt.

 

[veteran]

Actually, it's all the ad hominems that I was refering to. I quite enjoy a Scriptural discussion or debate, but when an opponent continues to get personal, that's where I lose interest. At that stage, the debate ceases to be enjoyable, productive, and edifying.

In this thread, that is how you came out of the gate. And I've experienced the same in other threads also. This is why I said what I did in my first post on this thread. I'm happy to discuss and debate the topic, but I'm not so happy to be insulted while doing it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

When you decide to quit all that gibberish talking and actually stick to The Scriptures, then I'd be willing to listen and provide rebuttal. But until then, I'm not interested.

 

[teleiosis]

Gibberish talking? Sounds like a crusty old, Air Force, desk sergeant to me. You know veteran, we don't have a command structure here. Besides, I out-ranked you in our military days.

Stick to the Scripture? You know, that's the thing. We all have one source document and we all have completely different views on it. Lighten up Francis, and that's an order.

LOL

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, This is a reply to post #42, sorry it’s taken so long but I’ve had some pre-winter projects to accomplish in this spell of good weather. Your words: “And that's the problem you are having, because they are parallel to each other. In
Rev.6:14-17 it's about the time of Christ's wrath having come and those who want to hide from Him. With the 7th trumpet in Rev.11 same things, Christ reiging and the time of His wrath and more detail about His Kingdom come on earth. On the 7th vial Christ's coming and His wrath with Armageddon to take control over His enemies on the earth.”

You seem to believe that every time something similar is spoken of in the bible then it must be the same event which is erroneous thinking. Let’s take a closer look at these verses. Rev. 6:14-17 - “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

We are agreed that this precedes and announces the arrival of the day of the Lord. The next two events after this are the sealing of the 144,000 and the pre-wrath rapture of the church. The important parts for this discussion are highlighted above and the words in parenthesis are mine in the following. Do you see the word “sitteth” in vs. 16? Just after this Christ arises as I showed you from Zech. 2:13. It’s not leaven, it’s reality.

Let’s look at Rev. 11, Rev. 11:15-19 - “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. ( At this point the wrath of the Lamb, God the Son, is over and they are speaking that which is soon to come, not that which has occurred already. This verse closes that part of the judgment)

(Vs. 16 starts a completely different subject and though similar, they are not the same. The 24 elders are now worshipping God the Father)16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, (God the Father) which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, ( just before the wrath of the Lamb the nations were afraid but now they are angry because of the wrath of the Lamb they suffered.) and thy wrath is come, ( Similar terminology except this time it is speaking of the wrath of God the Father, Rev. 15:1) and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, (only the “saved” dead) and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, (this is most likely speaking of the 7 thunders from Rev. 10:3 ) and an earthquake, and great hail.”

In Rev. 6, we had an earthquake that moved mountains, in Rev. 11:19 we have a different earthquake with some hail. Now let’s look at the 7[sup]th[/sup] vial. Rev. 16:18-21 - “And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon (one of the “cities” of the “nations”, NOT Jerusalem) came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (This earthquake is much larger than the ones of Rev. 6 & 11)21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: (more but bigger hail, not the same as Rev.11 and hail isn’t mentioned in Rev. 6) and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

I think this shows to most reasonable men that these are all separate events and apart in their timing.

Your words: “Our Lord Jesus comes only ONCE, not two or three times. The time of His coming is with those events on the "day of the Lord" like The Scripture declares. His wrath on the last day is the wrath that Apostle Paul was talking about on "the day of the Lord" in 1 Thess.5.”
Sorry Vet, but the wrath of the Lamb starts waaaayyyy before the “last day”. As I have shown you numerous times the word “day” does NOT imply a literal 24 hr. day, but a “period of time”. Jesus comes TWICE, both times we have a different picture of His returns, the first in Acts 1:11 and the second time in Rev. 19:11-16. Two completely different pictures for two completely separate events.

Your words: “Both Peter and Paul declare Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord", His coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Within Peter's witness of that is the burning of the elements of man's works off this earth, which is what "the day of the Lord" events contain. Christ, Paul and Peter all gave that "as a thief" metaphor for the time of Christ's coming and the day of His wrath. So how does that show Christ has already come at that point and gathered His Church already? How is it you don't understand that warning would mean nothing if His Church was already raptured at that point? There would be no need for His giving it.”

Is the “thief in the night” a warning for the church or for the unsaved? If one believes in the harmony of God’s word then we must see it for what it is, a warning for the unsaved and an admonition to the church for watchfulness. Not every occurrence of the phrase “thief in the night” is speaking of the same event. Same problem as above. In Matt. 24 it’s an admonition to watchfulness, in 1 Thess. Paul says in 5:4 - “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” It’s the church that’s not in darkness because we know the signs of His appearing. So this is NOT a warning for the church but for the unsaved.

Seeing that the day of the Lord has many aspects and is a long-time event I believe the passage in 2 Pet. 3:10 is speaking of the future time as depicted in Rev. 20:8-9. We’re not told how long satan will be released for but it could be hundreds of years and those “latter day” events will in many ways “mirror” our last days events concluding with the prophecy of Rev. 20:9 which I believe Peter is speaking of in this passage.


Your words: “Nor can anyone try and apply that "as a thief" warning in Rev.16:15 to unbelieving Jews they think will be left-behind to go through the tribulation. Our Lord Jesus specifically gives that metaphor to His Church on earth, and Paul did also in 1 Thess.5 to mark the time of Christ's return as a warning to not be deceived with those who instead will be saying, "Peace and safety".”

One shouldn’t “lock up” a metaphor to describe a specific event or peoples just because it’s used several times. Descriptive language is just that and the same descriptions can be used for multiple purposes, which brings us back to the problem of symbolism and the idea that every time a certain phrase is used it must be speaking of the same thing and that’s just bad exegesis.

Your words: “All your doing is making affirmations, not disproving those correlations.”

We all “see through a glass darkly”. Would you accept any proof? Can prophetical things be specifically proven by anyone? No! Not even by you.

Your words: “I can't help that that dumps the doctrines of men you've chosen to follow instead of the Scripture as written.”

This attitude about the “doctrines of men” is getting old. Don’t you realize, unless you say you’re God, that everything you speak and believe is the doctrine of a man, as well? A doctrine is just how one interprets scripture. You think you’re right and everyone else is wrong unless they agree with you, that’s YOUR doctrine, not scripture. There are many viable alternative views to yours out there and they usually can be all backed up with scripture. You said in a different post that you feel like you have some “special insight” to scripture (paraphrased) and I believe that about what has God shown me as well and there are probably tens of thousands of others out there who probably believe the same way.

I think a good way to look at scripture is to realize it doesn’t “end” with us. We are not the “last generation”, we are just the generation that will see the beginning of the day of the Lord. It seems like many people believe that when the “end” comes we can just toss out the bible or treat it as a history book because all will be fulfilled but the ALL doesn’t happen until the end of the millennium and those generations who will be tempted by satan again and things will probably seem much like it does today, prophetically speaking.


　
　
　

 

[mark s]

Yes Mark S, Veteran can be a hard drink of water to swallow at times and I give you that he can be insulting, but it is due to his understanding and convictions.

Others don't have convictions?

They do, but they still know how to respect others.

Even still, he calls my writing "gibberish". Do you think this is a factual description? Or another ad hominem argument intended to avoid addressing what I'm saying? How productive is that? What does this declare to all who read it?

This has been my experience with Veteran from the first day I posted on this forum. What does the Bible say about how we are to treat others? Something different . . . in my reading.

My chief objection to this kind of discussion is that it really amounts to using logical fallacies to try to win a debate. No matter how many times someone uses ad hominem arguments, it only distracts from the discussion, and prevents true debate.

Now . . . you aren't suggesting that I am being a troll . . . are you?

But the bottom line . . . I've concluded that the catching up of the church will occur before the 70th week. That's not even the topic of this thread! But at every turn, Veteran feels that he must attack that doctrine, and in doing so, attack anyone who holds that view. And that's the way it is. It's what he does.

So you recognize that he is insulting, but you think that's OK. So long as I dare mention Pre-Trib Rapture, he will continue to attack. It gets pretty old, I'll tell you that.

John wrote that you will know who the true Christians are by how much they love each other. Is this an expression of love? Is this from the new nature? Or the old nature?

You need not answer me.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[tgwprophet]

Others don't have convictions? - yes they do and so do I

Even still, he calls my writing "gibberish". And he has done like to my posts but still reverted back to respect, and thst is most of the point.

Now . . . you aren't suggesting that I am being a troll . . . are you? - not yet really, but I am much more showing you how to evade that title. For Trolls only desire is to hit and run, never back up their claims and NOT to allow anyone to know who they are - above all.

So you recognize that he is insulting, but you think that's OK. So long as I dare mention Pre-Trib Rapture, he will continue to attack. It gets pretty old, I'll tell you that. - I used to teach my son while he was growing up... 3 times is 2 many that widom is applicable in many ways. In a pretribulation rapture idea I do believe it is in error AND it is also a problem creator, when pre-trib rapture does not come.

I have found Veteran very adamant in his believes, right or wrong... but he is very sincere in his attempts to be correct for correct's sake... does that help you understand?

 

[Spirit Covenant]

Hi Folks, As I was praying and studying the Word, God pointed out something to me that I must have read a thousand times but never made the connection until today. Let me first say that this in no way backs up my timeline POV. In fact, it destroys it just as it will if you're pre-trib, pre-wrath or post -trib, if you're willing to accept the truth of God's word. We all have our little timelines that we create to make sense and put in order the events of the 70th week. Well, this nugget will assuredly destroy them all. Perhaps you think I'm being overly dramatic, well you tell me. The topic is the Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - "[sup] [/sup]And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 ( Rev.11:13) . Rev. 11:14 - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Now if we were to go in order it would seem that the 7th trump would be the third woe! IT IS NOT! I had always believed it made sense and never really considered anything else.

However, the third woe ( the last time a woe is mentioned in Revelations ) is found in Rev. 12:12 - "[sup] [/sup]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This third and final time a woe is mentioned is connected to the originating verse, Rev. 8:13 by the underlined, highlighted phrase. Since this is the case, shortly after this verse we find in Rev. 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

As we all know the highlighted, underlined phrase means 3 1/2 yrs. So here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week. That is in no one's timeline that I have ever heard. It's playing havoc with mine, that's for sure.

So I've spent the day trying to make sense of this and asking God for understanding. I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative. Please I'm asking for some serious guidance here and not a mockery by those who are unwilling to bend in the face of revealed truth.

Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 4th seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week?

What do you guys think? Serious answers only, please.

I think that there is no antichrist visibly coming except the ones that have been in charge of the world since long before any of us were born. There will also be no WW3 because Christs 2 prophets will shut the world down before that can happen. The first half of the seventieth week was spent by the messiah who was cut off in the midst of the week and then His two prophets will continue the last half of the week at the end by taking away the Lords daily sacrifice to man (The whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water). Then those of true faith will be revealed and separated from the liars. The faithful will survive on faith in the Lord alone and the liars will rely on the flesh and the abomination of desolation.

For where the carcas is there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

[veteran]

Gibberish talking? Sounds like a crusty old, Air Force, desk sergeant to me. You know veteran, we don't have a command structure here. Besides, I out-ranked you in our military days.

Stick to the Scripture? You know, that's the thing. We all have one source document and we all have completely different views on it. Lighten up Francis, and that's an order.

LOL

Yes, gibberish talking. That's what 'mark s' did as soon as I referred to his holding to the Pre-trib Rapture tradition from 'men', he took it as a personal insult instead of simply admitting he heeds those men and their later disciples.

The Pre-trib Rapture doctrine originated from 'men', not from God in His Word. That's why it was never... a doctrine of any Christian Church all the way up to the 1800's Britain when and where some Churches started adopting it from John Darby et al.

So go back to your rear echelon desk flying, and get out of the front line trenches where I'm busy protecting you (just joking cap).

Hi Vet, This is a reply to post #42, sorry it’s taken so long but I’ve had some pre-winter projects to accomplish in this spell of good weather. Your words: “And that's the problem you are having, because they are parallel to each other. In
Rev.6:14-17 it's about the time of Christ's wrath having come and those who want to hide from Him. With the 7th trumpet in Rev.11 same things, Christ reiging and the time of His wrath and more detail about His Kingdom come on earth. On the 7th vial Christ's coming and His wrath with Armageddon to take control over His enemies on the earth.”

You seem to believe that every time something similar is spoken of in the bible then it must be the same event which is erroneous thinking.

Similar is not the word I would use at all. Those on the 6th Seal of Rev.6:16-17 seek to hide from the "wrath of the Lamb" because "the great day of His wrath is come". The timing of Rev.11:18 with the 7th Trumpet is about the time of Christ's wrath as written there, and the "cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath" of Rev.16:14 with the 7th Vial. How's that not direct parallel Scripture? Direct parallel is the description I'd use, and have done so.

But I'll listen for it bit...

Let’s take a closer look at these verses. Rev. 6:14-17 - “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

We are agreed that this precedes and announces the arrival of the day of the Lord.

Stop right there. All those Rev.6:14-17 events occur at the SAME time. You're trying to insert a different... time within those events. Can't do that. The part below is also where you're beginning to bring in what you've gotten from men's traditions about their required sequential order for Revelation...

The next two events after this are the sealing of the 144,000 and the pre-wrath rapture of the church. The important parts for this discussion are highlighted above and the words in parenthesis are mine in the following. Do you see the word “sitteth” in vs. 16? Just after this Christ arises as I showed you from Zech. 2:13. It’s not leaven, it’s reality.

WHY did you suddenly make a jump leaving the Revelation 6 chapter about the 6th Seal events???

That's what you're doing with jumping to Rev.7 and trying to make it a part of the 6th Seal events of Rev.6! There is NO "pre-wrath rapture of the church" in Rev.6 NOR Rev.7. You've been wrongly taught to ADD that idea to the Scripture there, and that's where you're messing up. Didn't you notice that in Rev.7:1 John says, "And after these things..."? The 6th Seal events are not continuing into Rev.7, John is marking another vision he's seeing in Rev.7.

Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
(KJV)

Those four winds blowing on the earth represent the 'end' of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord" events when Christ comes "as a thief". But those angels are told to hold up loosing that until... what? Until God's servants (on earth) are sealed with HIS seal. Because of that we have to ask what is God's sealing for? Is it so as to be Raptured out prior to the tribulation events? NO. It's so as to make a STAND during... the tribulation events. That's what Rev.7 is about, and also parts of Rev.9 with a pointer to God's sealing there also. So now at Rev.7, what timing does God's sealing of His servants take place? BEFORE the great tribulation timing. So what TIMING is that there, 6th Seal "day of the Lord" and Christ's wrath timing??? Absolutely not! That subject of the sealing there in Rev.7 is going backwards in the timeline, back to a description of God's servants being sealed in preparation for the trib. That's at least 1260 days, or "a time, times, and an half" BEFORE Christ's coming and His wrath.

Then starting at Rev.7:9 about the "great multitude" of Gentile servants, the timeline is moving way... forward PAST the tribulation, and PAST the "day of the Lord" event, because they're given white robes, washed them in the Blood of The Lamb with going through the tribulation, and are at the throne with Christ after His return, since those events of the waters of life, no hunger, no heat or cold, are events of Christ's "thousand years" reign.



I see no reason to continue this with you, since what you've tried to do is to destroy the simplicity that's in those Scriptures just so you can hold to the Pre-Wrath theological tradition, which also comes from... men's doctrines, and NOT God's Word.

Others don't have convictions?

They do, but they still know how to respect others.

Even still, he calls my writing "gibberish". Do you think this is a factual description? Or another ad hominem argument intended to avoid addressing what I'm saying? How productive is that? What does this declare to all who read it?

This has been my experience with Veteran from the first day I posted on this forum. What does the Bible say about how we are to treat others? Something different . . . in my reading.

My chief objection to this kind of discussion is that it really amounts to using logical fallacies to try to win a debate. No matter how many times someone uses ad hominem arguments, it only distracts from the discussion, and prevents true debate.

Now . . . you aren't suggesting that I am being a troll . . . are you?

But the bottom line . . . I've concluded that the catching up of the church will occur before the 70th week. That's not even the topic of this thread! But at every turn, Veteran feels that he must attack that doctrine, and in doing so, attack anyone who holds that view. And that's the way it is. It's what he does.

So you recognize that he is insulting, but you think that's OK. So long as I dare mention Pre-Trib Rapture, he will continue to attack. It gets pretty old, I'll tell you that.

John wrote that you will know who the true Christians are by how much they love each other. Is this an expression of love? Is this from the new nature? Or the old nature?

You need not answer me.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Most of that is nothing but HYPE.

When I say the Pre-trib Rapture theory is a false doctrine I am attacking the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men.

For those who hold to that theory of man, it's their OWN personal 'choice' IF they want to feel that is a personal insult. And the truth of the matter it is NOT a personal insult. It is a statement AGAINST that false doctrine.

But here you are, BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST ME, and why is that? I'll tell you why; it's because you have NOTHING ELSE to resort to! You've failed to even TRY to back up that doctrine in The Scriptures like I've asked you, so it's actually YOU that have resorted to ad hominem attacks against me personally!

Obviously, you need to go look up the definition of 'ad hominem' that you used against me. It means failure to address the argument itself, and instead resort to personal attacks!

 

[Spirit Covenant]

I think that there is no antichrist visibly coming except the ones that have been in charge of the world since long before any of us were born. There will also be no WW3 because Christs 2 prophets will shut the world down before that can happen. The first half of the seventieth week was spent by the messiah who was cut off in the midst of the week and then His two prophets will continue the last half of the week at the end by taking away the Lords daily sacrifice to man (The whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water). Then those of true faith will be revealed and separated from the liars. The faithful will survive on faith in the Lord alone and the liars will rely on the flesh and the abomination of desolation.

For where the carcas is there the eagles will be gathered together.

This scriture will befall all who say they are Gods People.

Isaiah 3
11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, For the reward of his hands shall be given him.
12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths."
13 The Lord stands up to plead, And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment With the elders of His people And His princes: "For you have eaten up the vineyard; The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing My people And grinding the faces of the poor?" Says the Lord God of hosts.
16 Moreover the Lord says: "Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, And walk with outstretched necks And wanton eyes, Walking and mincing as they go, Making a jingling with their feet,
17 Therefore the Lord will strike with a scab The crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, And the Lord will uncover their secret parts."
18 In that day the Lord will take away the finery: The jingling anklets, the scarves, and the crescents;
19 The pendants, the bracelets, and the veils;
20The headdresses, the leg ornaments, and the headbands; The perfume boxes, the charms,
21and the rings; The nose jewels,
22 the festal apparel, and the mantles; The outer garments, the purses,
23 and the mirrors; The fine linen, the turbans, and the robes.
24 And so it shall be: Instead of a sweet smell there will be a stench; Instead of a sash, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, baldness; Instead of a rich robe, a girding of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.
25 Your men shall fall by the sword, And your mighty in the war.
26 Her gates shall lament and mourn, And she being desolate shall sit on the ground.

Jeremiah 7
29 Cut off your hair and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on the desolate heights; for the Lord has rejected and forsaken the generation of His wrath.'

Amos 8
10 I will turn your feasts into mourning, And all your songs into lamentation; I will bring sackcloth on every waist, And baldness on every head; I will make it like mourning for an only son, And its end like a bitter day.

 

[veteran]

This scriture will befall all who say they are Gods People.

Isaiah 3
11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, For the reward of his hands shall be given him.
12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, And destroy the way of your paths."
13 The Lord stands up to plead, And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment With the elders of His people And His princes: "For you have eaten up the vineyard; The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing My people And grinding the faces of the poor?" Says the Lord God of hosts.
16 Moreover the Lord says: "Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, And walk with outstretched necks And wanton eyes, Walking and mincing as they go, Making a jingling with their feet,
17 Therefore the Lord will strike with a scab The crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, And the Lord will uncover their secret parts."
18 In that day the Lord will take away the finery: The jingling anklets, the scarves, and the crescents;
19 The pendants, the bracelets, and the veils;
20The headdresses, the leg ornaments, and the headbands; The perfume boxes, the charms,
21and the rings; The nose jewels,
22 the festal apparel, and the mantles; The outer garments, the purses,
23 and the mirrors; The fine linen, the turbans, and the robes.
24 And so it shall be: Instead of a sweet smell there will be a stench; Instead of a sash, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, baldness; Instead of a rich robe, a girding of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.
25 Your men shall fall by the sword, And your mighty in the war.
26 Her gates shall lament and mourn, And she being desolate shall sit on the ground.

Jeremiah 7
29 Cut off your hair and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on the desolate heights; for the Lord has rejected and forsaken the generation of His wrath.'

Amos 8
10 I will turn your feasts into mourning, And all your songs into lamentation; I will bring sackcloth on every waist, And baldness on every head; I will make it like mourning for an only son, And its end like a bitter day.

You can't just go assigning that to all of God's people, that's crazy to try and do that. It specifically applies to those who fall away from Him, which per both OT and NT history, not all His people fell away. Likewise in these last days now, not everyone is going to fall away from Him to bow in false worship to the coming Antichrist.