Amillennialism

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Naomi25

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I didn't read what you posted because it was long-winded. I'm wondering, can write a condensed version, free of fluff and without assuming your reader is ignorant of the Bible?

The vast majority of what I posted was bible verses. So perhaps you should think twice before calling it fluff?? (Just saying :p)
And I'm not assuming ignorance, I was just trying to plot it out to make it visually easier to follow. I'm a visual person. That's not disprespect on behalf of others....

Look, my point was this: if you read Matt 24:29-31; 1 Cor 15:50-55; 1 Thess 4:15-18, then we see that at Christ's return, we are all "gathered to him" (Raptured if you want).

Then read 1Cor 15:21-27, 50-55; Rev 21:4 and see that when Christ returns, death is no more.

Matt 25:31-32,36; Matt 13:36-43; 2 Thess 1:5-10; 2 Tim 4:8; Rev 20:11-15 tell us that at Christ's return he will judge the nations, both the just and unjust.

And 2 Pet 3:10-13; Rev 21:1-8 show us that when he returns the earth and the heavens will 'melt' and then be made new.

All these things happen when Jesus returns! There does not seem to be gaps, events or 1000 years in-between them!

And when we go on to look at the evidence (or lack there of) of an actual 1000 years reign on this earth, then...well...yeah. This is where I've landed. At the moment. God always surprises me, and I don't discount the possibility he is not done leading me in this area. But for the moment, this is what I see scripture clearly saying.
 

Naomi25

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Lot's to process here, but very interesting points! Much to think and study on.
I wonder, what is your view (just a summary, lol) of "heaven"?

It's going to be AWESOME!




Sorry! Well. Um. How much can anyone really know? I think it will be inaugurated when Christ returns. I think we'll have physical bodies and be here on a physical earth. I think we'll work, but instead of toiling, it will be joyous. No weeds, no sickness, nothing done in vain, no inequality or unfairness.
My kids often ask me what it will be like, so I try and paint a picture. My daughter loves animals. So I tell her that she may find herself caring for a multitude of God's animals in a perfect garden for the glory of God.
Think of how satisfying 'jobs' could be if it's not "hard". If we love every one of our co-workers. If we aren't stressing about the bills we have to cover.
If you've ever found yourself doing something...gardening, cooking, doing art, walking your dog...anything! And found yourself just...happy...in that moment of "doing something". Happy to be busy, happy to be productive. That...it's going to be that, except it will be that with the presence and blessing of God and family. So better.
Oh...and just personally...I'm really hoping God will do Cosmos tours. I do seriously want to check out the stars!
 
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brakelite

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It's going to be AWESOME!




Sorry! Well. Um. How much can anyone really know? I think it will be inaugurated when Christ returns. I think we'll have physical bodies and be here on a physical earth. I think we'll work, but instead of toiling, it will be joyous. No weeds, no sickness, nothing done in vain, no inequality or unfairness.
My kids often ask me what it will be like, so I try and paint a picture. My daughter loves animals. So I tell her that she may find herself caring for a multitude of God's animals in a perfect garden for the glory of God.
Think of how satisfying 'jobs' could be if it's not "hard". If we love every one of our co-workers. If we aren't stressing about the bills we have to cover.
If you've ever found yourself doing something...gardening, cooking, doing art, walking your dog...anything! And found yourself just...happy...in that moment of "doing something". Happy to be busy, happy to be productive. That...it's going to be that, except it will be that with the presence and blessing of God and family. So better.
Oh...and just personally...I'm really hoping God will do Cosmos tours. I do seriously want to check out the stars!
I like your description... Total contentment. It's just the timing I would disagree with. When Jesus returns this planet is going to be uninhabitable. There will be no good ground to till or sow, no unpolluted water to drink, widespread nuclear waste and poisonous everything, everywhere.
The millennium for the earth will be a1000 year rest...a Sabbath that the earth hasn't enjoyed since creation. 6000 years of hard work then Sabbath.
At the end of that rest of a new heavens and a new earth. Then we shall enjoy all that God's creation was intended to offer.
 

Naomi25

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Why not? Indeed it makes perfect sense, and is the only way to honestly study Revelation.

1. We have seven seals in chronological order.

2. Within the 7th seal we have seven trumpets in chronological order.

3. Within the 7th trumpet we have seven vials/bowls in chronological order.

You do NOT find John jumping around from 1 to 5 to 2 to 7 to 4 to... whatever.

When people begin by CONTRADICTING Scripture, they will never arrive at the knowledge of the truth. Amillennialists blatantly deny that one thousand years means exactly one thousand years, so why would the Holy Spirit give them any further light? "...but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath".(Mt 25:28)

Well, I never said we should go from Seal 6 to Seal 1. But when we read through the book we begin to find some commonalities that should really make us pay attention. The series of judgements have more in common than just have 7 judgements each.

Here we have the Seal judgements. Notice in each reference that at the end of the judgements we see the same things, environmental disasters of similar sorts (earthquakes, peals of thunder, hail, etc), as well as angels declaring "It is done!", or "the great day has come!", or "the kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord!" An announcement of no more delay and of final consumation!

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. - Revelation 6:12–14


Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” - Revelation 6:15–17


Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. - Revelation 8:5

And now with the Trumpet judgements:

The Seventh Trumpet
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” - Revelation 11:15

saying,
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged
,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” -Revelation 11:17–18



Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. -Revelation 11:19


And now the Bowl judgements.

The Seventh Bowl
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. - Revelation 16:17–20



And we also see in the "inter-judgmental interludes" that this pattern continues as well:

And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. - Revelation 14:15–19


Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. -Revelation 19:11


Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. -Revelation 19:17–21



So we can see that there appears to be many times that Christ comes to 'begin his reign' here on earth, but this cannot be. Just as it is not really rational for the sky to be vanishing in Chapter 6:12, but then...well...here for the rest of the book. Or the nations to be fully judged in the winepress of God's wrath in Chapter 14, but then still be around in Chapter 20.

The book recapitulates. Which just means going back over something really, really important from a different angle...giving us more infomation. I can't quite understand how that is so infuriating. We're not saying it's not trur, or important, or even very, very real.
 

Naomi25

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I like your description... Total contentment. It's just the timing I would disagree with. When Jesus returns this planet is going to be uninhabitable. There will be no good ground to till or sow, no unpolluted water to drink, widespread nuclear waste and poisonous everything, everywhere.
The millennium for the earth will be a1000 year rest...a Sabbath that the earth hasn't enjoyed since creation. 6000 years of hard work then Sabbath.
At the end of that rest of a new heavens and a new earth. Then we shall enjoy all that God's creation was intended to offer.

Not saying you are wrong...but...wouldn't the fact that: 1), he's God and can doing anything!, and 2) he's planning to re-make it all new, just like us (Romans 8:18-25; 2 Peter 3:6-10), mean that all that junk and waste would be 'melted' off? Just like our bodies will be sin free, so too shall this earth be.
 
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brakelite

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Not saying you are wrong...but...wouldn't the fact that: 1), he's God and can doing anything!, and 2) he's planning to re-make it all new, just like us (Romans 8:18-25; 2 Peter 3:6-10), mean that all that junk and waste would be 'melted' off? Just like our bodies will be sin free, so too shall this earth be.
That would mean He does it twice... One at the beginning of the millennium, and again at the end when all the wicked are destroyed at the battle of gog and Magog. If it's at the beginning, and Jesus is here in person throughout the millennium, does he go back to heaven to bring back the holy city?
Here's my timeline.
  1. Antichrist already here in the form of the RCC. But not ruling yet.
  2. Power given to to him by the second beast , the US union of church and state (the Protestant image to the papacy church and state) through the establishment of the mark.
  3. Battle of Armageddon... The nations of the world against the remnant of God's people who refused to surrende their independence to Rome.
  4. The plagues fall upon the wicked... All the nations of the world...wreaking great destruction and chaos in nature.
  5. Those in Christ, like Israel in Egypt, are protected yet witness God righties judgments.
  6. Jesus comes to take His bride home... The righteous living are changed... The righteous dead are raised... All go to the meet Jesus in the clouds.
  7. Millennium begins. The earth receives its long overdue Sabbath. It lies fallow.
  8. The Saints are in heaven judging the fallen angels with Christ.
  9. At the end of the millennium the don'ts and Jesus and the Father descend upon the earth in the holy city.
  10. The wicked, from all throughout history, are tied to meet their final sentence.
  11. They in desperation surround the city, deceived by Satan into believing there is a chance of success.
  12. They are all destroyed. Satan and his angels also. Utterly. Completely. The earth also is cleaned in this same for.
  13. Sin, death, sickness, and suffering in all its forms is erased from the universe.
  14. New heavens and new earth.
  15. The earth becomes the capital of the universe.
 

Naomi25

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That would mean He does it twice... One at the beginning of the millennium, and again at the end when all the wicked are destroyed at the battle of gog and Magog. If it's at the beginning, and Jesus is here in person throughout the millennium, does he go back to heaven to bring back the holy city?
Here's my timeline.
  1. Antichrist already here in the form of the RCC. But not ruling yet.
  2. Power given to to him by the second beast , the US union of church and state (the Protestant image to the papacy church and state) through the establishment of the mark.
  3. Battle of Armageddon... The nations of the world against the remnant of God's people who refused to surrende their independence to Rome.
  4. The plagues fall upon the wicked... All the nations of the world...wreaking great destruction and chaos in nature.
  5. Those in Christ, like Israel in Egypt, are protected yet witness God righties judgments.
  6. Jesus comes to take His bride home... The righteous living are changed... The righteous dead are raised... All go to the meet Jesus in the clouds.
  7. Millennium begins. The earth receives its long overdue Sabbath. It lies fallow.
  8. The Saints are in heaven judging the fallen angels with Christ.
  9. At the end of the millennium the don'ts and Jesus and the Father descend upon the earth in the holy city.
  10. The wicked, from all throughout history, are tied to meet their final sentence.
  11. They in desperation surround the city, deceived by Satan into believing there is a chance of success.
  12. They are all destroyed. Satan and his angels also. Utterly. Completely. The earth also is cleaned in this same for.
  13. Sin, death, sickness, and suffering in all its forms is erased from the universe.
  14. New heavens and new earth.
  15. The earth becomes the capital of the universe.

Ok...so...here's the thing. And, basically, it's the same "thing" I have with Dispensationalism, or even historical Pre-millennialism, and why I've ended up where I am....
Is everything you've just lain out possible? I suppose. With God everything is, and if it is his ultimate plan to do to all those things in that very order, then he could, and would, make it so.
However, I cannot see anything in scripture that would lead us to a natural conclusion that events will unfold in that particular way, in that timetable, so to speak. You seem to have all the basic elements that the bible mentions: the church, the unrepentant unsaved, the apostate 'church', the antichrist, Christ's return, the judgement, the resurrection, the renewal of all things....but, where in scripture plots out these exact timetables that people put together with elaborate, intricate, detail?
Because what I see, in those verses that talk about those things, in regards to timing, is mention of Christ's return...and that's it. No "first, second and third".
So...I wonder about that. No one has really been able to give me a satisfactory response from scripture thus far.
 
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brakelite

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Allow me to do this in a question and answer format.
  1. What event begins the millennium? A. Revelation 20:4. A resurrection starts the millennium.
  2. What is this resurrection called, and who will be raised in it? A. It is called the first resurrection, and those raised are the Saints from all ages. Revelation 20:5,6
  3. The Bible says there are two resurrections, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation. John5:29. When is the second resurrection, and who will be raised in it? A. The rest of the dead... Those who were not saved... Until the 1000 years are finished. Revelation 20:5.
    KJV John 5
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    So the two resurrections act as bookends at either end of the 1000 years.
  4. What other events take place at the beginning of the 1000 years? A. The second coming of Christ...The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. ... And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. The second coming is the final climactic event immediately after the earthquake and hail storm which devastates the planet. Revelation 16:18,21. See also Jeremiah 4:23-26... Isaiah 24::1,3,19,20... Isaiah 2:21.
  5. What happens to the wicked, the unsaved, both living and dead, at the second coming? A. With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
    “When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
    “Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
    “The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)
  6. The Bible says that Satan is bound during this 1000 years. How, and where? A. “I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit. ...
    He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit ... till the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:1–3). The word for “bottomless pit” in the original Greek is “abussos,” or abyss. That same word is used in Genesis 1:2 in the Greek version of the Old Testament in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated “deep.” “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.” The words “deep,” “bottomless pit,” and “abyss” here refer to the same thing—the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. Jeremiah, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2: “without form, and void,” “no light,” “no man,” and “black” (Jeremiah 4:23, 25, 28). So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the bottomless pit, or abyss, during the 1,000 years, just as it was in the beginning before Creation was completed. Also, Isaiah 24:22speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as “gathered in the pit” and “shut up in the prison.”
So what are the chains? A. “An angel ... having ... a great chain in his hand ... laid hold of ... Satan, and bound him for a thousand years ... and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:1–3). The chain is symbolic—a chain of circumstances. A super-natural being cannot be confined with a literal chain. Satan is “tied down” because he has no people to deceive. The unsaved are all dead and the saved are all in heaven. The Lord confines the devil to this earth so he cannot roam the universe hoping to find someone to deceive. Forcing the devil to stay on the earth, alone with his demons for a thousand years with no one to deceive, will be for him the most galling chain ever forged.

Other pertinent scriptures....
I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4).
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” (1 Corinthians 6:2, 3).
“I ... saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. ... And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, ‘Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men’ ” (Revelation 21:2, 3).
“Behold, the day of the Lord is coming. ... And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two. ... Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. ... All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem” (Zechariah 14:1, 4, 5, 10).
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. ...
When the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations” (Revelation 20:5, 7, 8).
Satan will … go out to deceive the nations … of the earth … to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city” (Revelation 20:7–9).
“Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into ... the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 20:9, 10; 21:8).
“ ‘The wicked ... shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:3).
“Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth” (Isaiah 65:17).
“Look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13).
“He who sat on the throne said, ‘Behold, I make all things new’ ” (Revelation 21:5).
“The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God” (Revelation 21:3).
 

Nancy

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It's going to be AWESOME!




Sorry! Well. Um. How much can anyone really know? I think it will be inaugurated when Christ returns. I think we'll have physical bodies and be here on a physical earth. I think we'll work, but instead of toiling, it will be joyous. No weeds, no sickness, nothing done in vain, no inequality or unfairness.
My kids often ask me what it will be like, so I try and paint a picture. My daughter loves animals. So I tell her that she may find herself caring for a multitude of God's animals in a perfect garden for the glory of God.
Think of how satisfying 'jobs' could be if it's not "hard". If we love every one of our co-workers. If we aren't stressing about the bills we have to cover.
If you've ever found yourself doing something...gardening, cooking, doing art, walking your dog...anything! And found yourself just...happy...in that moment of "doing something". Happy to be busy, happy to be productive. That...it's going to be that, except it will be that with the presence and blessing of God and family. So better.
Oh...and just personally...I'm really hoping God will do Cosmos tours. I do seriously want to check out the stars!
Nice thoughts of heaven! Ah, just to get a glimpse ♥ And to feel useful and purposeful so completely!
 
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Willie T

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I didn't read what you posted because it was long-winded. I'm wondering, can write a condensed version, free of fluff and without assuming your reader is ignorant of the Bible?
Because of this post (and others that have echoed a similar sentiment at times) I just posted a new thread, "A Short Millennial Primer." It may not be as daunting.

Click here > A Short "Mllinninal" Primer
 
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bbyrd009

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Ah. Yes it was.
But, if you really need "that word", you can find it in a parable that Christ tells
i can already find it no prob tho Naomi, in perfect context and without resorting to parables;
"Return to Me, and I will return to you."
So...those who think Christ's return is ahead are silly little children who's understanding are limited and we just need to time to mature into what the bible really says?
Says you.
hmm, not sure about the "silly little children" part, we are talking about confronting deeply ingrained belief systems here, that virtually everyone around us holds, all of our peers, right. Who dares to question these? Plus i agree that "Christ's appearing" is ahead anyway, in a sense at least. The real sense imo. About this "Jesus returning" though, dunno there, sounds like two eyes are needed for that one
 
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bbyrd009

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You can pat yourself on the head for reaching the 'grown up' stage of understanding all you like, but it won't mean a thing
ah, sorry if i give this impression, i still get surprised pretty much every day, ok. I do not know, and i am not trying to give the impression that i do
 
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Dave L

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Jesus is Amillennial in his kingdom descriptions. Peter and the others eventually dropped their Jewish notions of a physical kingdom. Peter espousing Amillennialism in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost. Paul also describing the resurrection and rapture on the last day (according to Jesus). Followed by Peter's conflagration of this universe followed by the New Heavens and Earth.
 

bbyrd009

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but it won't mean a thing if it doesn't echo what scripture teaches.
well, what you really mean is "i won't be able to read it if it doesn't fit with my preconceived agenda" i think, i mean let's be honest ok, i am the one who can Quote "Deity Returning" in Scripture outside of a parable right, and you cannot
And scripture teaches a rich, deep, full picture of Christ's second return. It isn't an immature chicken scratching like you'd expect a kid to draw. It is a repeated theme that weaves throughout every NT book, teaching us to look, to long, to expect and to live with a very real expectation of that day.
woman, i would encourage all of you to do the same thing, ok, and the only thing i might add is "find the passages about today"
 

Vexatious

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The vast majority of what I posted was bible verses. So perhaps you should think twice before calling it fluff?? (Just saying :p)

Bible verses are often used as fluff. That doesn't make the verses bad, just gratuitously used or as a dishonest effort to lend the appearance of credibility to false teaching (see every post by a pretribber). The Apostle Paul talks at length about the Old Testament, but directly quotes very little of it (and, of course, never gives verse and chapter). If you're speaking to a fellow Christian, you should expect them to be familiar with the Bible. And, if they're not, they need to get familiar with it, and researching what you said is a good way to do it (and to see if you're misrepresenting scripture).

This works, We see that at Christ's return, we are all "gathered to him" (Raptured if you want)... when Christ returns, death is no more... at Christ's return he will judge the nations, both the just and unjust.

And 2 Pet 3:10-13; Rev 21:1-8 show us that when he returns the earth and the heavens will 'melt' and then be made new.

Peter says the earth and heavens will melt. When can and should discuss this without tossing around verse numbers and lengthy quotes. Peter was speaking figuratively, not literally.

1) Peter says the heavens and the earth to melt to argue that we should live godly lives. What relevancy does a future, literal meltdown of the universe have to how we live our lives? But, figuratively, it is very relevant.

2) Fire is often used in the Bible as a figurative symbol of destruction.

3) Other verses that speak of a new heavens and new earth make no mention of anything like a literal destruction of the universe. That's a big thing to leave out.

4) Of verses about a new heavens and a new earth, none of them have a context that treats the event as literal. "Be behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth... The wolf and the lamb shall graze together." Where are the wolves and lambs during the meltdown of the universe? When does God put them back on the new earth? Etc.

5) Peter says, "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." It's ignorance on the part of the modern reader to think "elements", stoicheion, means physical substances, as the English word is usually used. The word doesn't inherently mean anything physical and I tell you, the Bible never uses the word to mean anything physical. Elements and works can't literally melt. Now, I will quote you chapter and verse to illustrate how the Bible uses the word elements: Col 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ." This use of "elements" perfectly fits Peter's use of the word.

Explain "works" burning up.
 

Naomi25

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Bible verses are often used as fluff. That doesn't make the verses bad, just gratuitously used or as a dishonest effort to lend the appearance of credibility to false teaching (see every post by a pretribber). The Apostle Paul talks at length about the Old Testament, but directly quotes very little of it (and, of course, never gives verse and chapter). If you're speaking to a fellow Christian, you should expect them to be familiar with the Bible. And, if they're not, they need to get familiar with it, and researching what you said is a good way to do it (and to see if you're misrepresenting scripture).

This works, We see that at Christ's return, we are all "gathered to him" (Raptured if you want)... when Christ returns, death is no more... at Christ's return he will judge the nations, both the just and unjust.

I have often summed up my views in shortened form elsewhere on this forum. I was asked, specifically, about what Amillennialists believe, with a focus on "how and why" they understood what they did. That is why I posted the length I did, with the amount of verses attached, plotting it out as I did.
I hardly forced you, or anyone to read it. If it was an affront to your biblical intellect, or attention span, just click on next. No skin off mine.


Peter says the earth and heavens will melt. When can and should discuss this without tossing around verse numbers and lengthy quotes. Peter was speaking figuratively, not literally.
Wait...we should talk about a bible verse without "tossing around" other bible verses? And if 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Rev 21:1-8 are "lengthy", then I worry for you.
And why do you think what Peter said is just figurative? Lets (horrors!!) look at what he said:

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. -2 Peter 3:5–7

So, Peter is saying that, just as God judged the world by the flood, so too will he judge it by fire. So...the question then becomes...was the flood literal? Jesus seemed to think so:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. -Matthew 24:37–39

So...what gives you leave to assume the judgement by fire is figurative?

1) Peter says the heavens and the earth to melt to argue that we should live godly lives. What relevancy does a future, literal meltdown of the universe have to how we live our lives? But, figuratively, it is very relevant.
Ah...I would say the opposite, honestly. No kid obeys their parent when they know the threatened punishment is just not going to come. And that is the same principle for pretty much anything as we move forward. We live godly lives because we know the Christ's return will be literal. That the judgement of man will be literal, that the remaking of all things will be literal. If we knew that things would just go on as they are now forever...what on earth would be the point of anything, ever?

2) Fire is often used in the Bible as a figurative symbol of destruction.
It's also used as...you know...fire and destruction. Ask Sodom and Gomorrah. Oh wait...

3) Other verses that speak of a new heavens and new earth make no mention of anything like a literal destruction of the universe. That's a big thing to leave out.

.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. -Matthew 24:35

They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, -Psalm 102:26

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. -Revelation 21:1

This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. -Hebrews 12:27



And, well, I could post more, but I know how much you hate fluff.

4) Of verses about a new heavens and a new earth, none of them have a context that treats the event as literal. "Be behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth... The wolf and the lamb shall graze together." Where are the wolves and lambs during the meltdown of the universe? When does God put them back on the new earth? Etc.
Where are we during the melting? Or...a better question should be: who holds us steady in death, then brings us back 'together', body and spirit, after the resurrection? A God who can reunite a spirit with a body that has been a pile of dust and scattered into the wind 5 thousand years distant, should not really have a problem holding the wolves, or lambs while he remakes the cosmos. Be that in death, or in heaven, who knows. It's a detail not important enough to mention in scripture. What it does mention, as you've pointed out, is that in the new order, there will be harmony between them, and us. That speaks to a universal remaking.

5) Peter says, "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." It's ignorance on the part of the modern reader to think "elements", stoicheion, means physical substances, as the English word is usually used. The word doesn't inherently mean anything physical and I tell you, the Bible never uses the word to mean anything physical. Elements and works can't literally melt. Now, I will quote you chapter and verse to illustrate how the Bible uses the word elements: Col 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ." This use of "elements" perfectly fits Peter's use of the word.
Are you telling me that God can't do something? He created the elements out of nothing. If he wants to burn them, then I suppose he shall.
However, the translation is perhaps better understood, in the plural, as "heavenly bodies". So, the verse therefore says: "..then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed (or burned up)."
In this case we can understand that Peter is talking about the Cosmos. What was born 'in the beginning'...spoken into creation by God, and fractured by mankind at the fall, God will wipe clean of sin. With fire? That's what it says, and no matter what you say, there is nothing there that gives us leave to interpret it figuratively. As Paul points out, the perishable cannot inherit the perishable. Even way out there in the furtherest galaxy there is death happening...stars dying. So all must be made new. Here on earth...from mankind, to animals, to the ground we walk on that quakes beneath us, longing for that time.

Explain "works" burning up

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. -1 Corinthians 3:12–15
 

Vexatious

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For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. -2 Peter 3:5–7

So, Peter is saying that, just as God judged the world by the flood, so too will he judge it by fire. So...the question then becomes...was the flood literal? Jesus seemed to think so:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. -Matthew 24:37–39

So...what gives you leave to assume the judgement by fire is figurative?

The flood was literal. The point Peter is making isn't that the earth will be destroyed by literal fire, but that it will be judged, as it was in the days of Noah: By the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Peter doesn't sum up his flood reference with the destruction of the earth, just the ungodly.

Where are we during the melting? Or...a better question should be: who holds us steady in death, then brings us back 'together', body and spirit, after the resurrection? A God who can reunite a spirit with a body that has been a pile of dust and scattered into the wind 5 thousand years distant, should not really have a problem holding the wolves, or lambs while he remakes the cosmos. Be that in death, or in heaven, who knows. It's a detail not important enough to mention in scripture. What it does mention, as you've pointed out, is that in the new order, there will be harmony between them, and us. That speaks to a universal remaking.

When you read miraculous things in the Bible, you should ask yourself does the context treat the miraculous thing as literal. The Bible never treats new earth and heavens as literal. It doesn't treat "new creation" as literal when you come to Christ and become a new creation. The Bible uses physical illustrations to convey spiritual truths. We're not told that the lion and lamb populations will be taken to safe places while the universe is destroyed, and then returned to the Earth once the Earth is recreated. We're not given any details that tell us the author wants us to take "new heavens and new earth" literally.

Are you telling me that God can't do something? He created the elements out of nothing. If he wants to burn them, then I suppose he shall.

It's not an issue of what God can do, it's an issue of what makes sense. It makes no sense that philosophies (elements) and actions (acts) can be burned up. (Actually, it doesn't make sense that for physical elements to burn up. Fire doesn't destroy physical elements.) It makes no sense that physical destruction of the universe means we should live godly lives. But, it makes sense that destruction of worldly philosophies and acts means we will be left with nothing if we don't live godly lives, which is Peter's point.

However, the translation is perhaps better understood, in the plural, as "heavenly bodies".

There's no justification for that translation, heavenly bodies. But, do you think a star can melt? Hint, they're already way past the melting point. You should reject interpretations that make no sense. You should reject interpretations not supported by context. And, you should really reject senseless interpretations that follow from poor translations (translating a word that means philosophies to heavenly bodies). (I love the ESV, but this is a serious botch by the ESV translators.)

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. -1 Corinthians 3:12–15

To you, that sounds like Paul wants you to take it literally? Do you think Paul is trying to educate construction workers? Use precious metal to build a barn? You don't think Paul is trying to convey a spiritual truth with an analogy?

"Anyone's works" is a figure of speech for what they have constructed. You could argue that Peter is using "works" figuratively, meaning what people, but the grammar is diffferent. There's no subject, "anyone's", for the works to belong to, making "works" the subject itself.
 

Naomi25

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The flood was literal. The point Peter is making isn't that the earth will be destroyed by literal fire, but that it will be judged, as it was in the days of Noah: By the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Peter doesn't sum up his flood reference with the destruction of the earth, just the ungodly.
So...let me get this straight. You believe the flood was literal. You believe Peter when he says judgement and destruction is coming. But it's too much of a stretch to believe said judgement is going to be fire...despite the fact that Peter says it outright a few verses later?
And, it's not really taking the text at face value (or, even, what it just flatly states) to say that he's only talking about the 'ungodly'. Where, elsewhere in scripture, are the ungodly called 'heavens and earth'?


When you read miraculous things in the Bible, you should ask yourself does the context treat the miraculous thing as literal. The Bible never treats new earth and heavens as literal. It doesn't treat "new creation" as literal when you come to Christ and become a new creation. The Bible uses physical illustrations to convey spiritual truths. We're not told that the lion and lamb populations will be taken to safe places while the universe is destroyed, and then returned to the Earth once the Earth is recreated. We're not given any details that tell us the author wants us to take "new heavens and new earth" literally.
It doesn't? How marvellous.
Let me ask you this: if the new heavens and new earth are not "literal"...what are they?
How do you deal with the fact that all creation is broken? Or is that passage not literal either? I suspect there are plenty of people living along the ring of fire who would disagree with you there. Australia is in the middle of another horrendous drought. The fires over in California. Broken. Just like we are. How can you say that when we are resurrected we will not be new? We must be new, or else we will be living, once more, in bodies that will grow old, sick and die. God has promised to make us, as well as the heavens and earth, free from sin...that means making it new.
What's your explination?

It's not an issue of what God can do, it's an issue of what makes sense. It makes no sense that philosophies (elements) and actions (acts) can be burned up. (Actually, it doesn't make sense that for physical elements to burn up. Fire doesn't destroy physical elements.) It makes no sense that physical destruction of the universe means we should live godly lives. But, it makes sense that destruction of worldly philosophies and acts means we will be left with nothing if we don't live godly lives, which is Peter's point.
Yes, it is an issue of what makes sense, and I don't think you're thinking big enough. This is 'end of the world' we're talking about. You think Peter is warning us to "live right" because our government might fall?
Christ says, "don't fear man, but fear him who can cast you into hell".
As Christians we take the gospel forth because we know it's not just a matter of how people live their lives...it's a matter of eternal souls. One day, God will call time on it all, and then people will be in either one place or another for eternity.
And this brings me back to my earlier point. For things to enter into eternity, where there is no more sickness or death, then the imperishable must be put away. That applies not only to us, but to the cosmos as well (Rom 8). It makes no sense, bringing it back to your point, for Peter to be making some half-hearted remark about 'live right' 'cause governments might fall. Who cares! Governments fall all the time, what people find important in this generation is scoffed at in later generations. All these things are foolish and passing away. We need to live with our eyes on the eternal, knowing that a time will come when the new will come and that we've stored our treasures in heaven, so to speak.

There's no justification for that translation, heavenly bodies. But, do you think a star can melt? Hint, they're already way past the melting point. You should reject interpretations that make no sense. You should reject interpretations not supported by context. And, you should really reject senseless interpretations that follow from poor translations (translating a word that means philosophies to heavenly bodies). (I love the ESV, but this is a serious botch by the ESV translators.)
Well, perhaps you should write to all the theologians who spent many years of their life in hard study of the ancient languages and then even more years studying the intent of the texts to keep as true to God's word as possible. I'm sure they'd be interested. You might also tell them that you consider God's word fluff and of no value in conversation.

Also...ever heard of a supernova? It is possible for big burny things to go boom.
Besides, it's kind of funny that you're pointing at the text and going "it can't say that. Science says it can't!" God made science, and science is only what we know up to now, it's always growing as we learn. Which is why all the athiests standing on their science hill are sort of hilarious. If God wants to make the burny things burn hotter, then they will. He made stuff out of nothing, so he's not exactly bound by the laws he upholds anyway.

To you, that sounds like Paul wants you to take it literally? Do you think Paul is trying to educate construction workers? Use precious metal to build a barn? You don't think Paul is trying to convey a spiritual truth with an analogy?

"Anyone's works" is a figure of speech for what they have constructed. You could argue that Peter is using "works" figuratively, meaning what people, but the grammar is diffferent. There's no subject, "anyone's", for the works to belong to, making "works" the subject itself.

No, I don't suppose he does want you to build a barn. Unless you want to. In which case I suspect it will burn. My condolences.
I see what your doing here, and I'm afraid that dog just won't hunt. Sure, Paul is saying that the things we treasure in this world won't last, that we need to focus on the next, live for the next. But it's interesting, isn't it, that he uses the analogy of fire burning those works up? I wonder why he'd do that?
Here's the crux of it: you can demand that Peter's text musn't be taken literally all you like, but there is absolutely nothing about the text, it's content, it context, it's setting or meaning, that gives you leave or exception to do that. We know that the old must be replaced, that it cannot inherit the new...both us, and creation. I dont care if it's by fire or he drowns the world in marshmellows. But every doctrine we can pull together about it points solidly to that...what fell into sin, must be made new. And since Peter was so very thoughtful to outright tell us that it would be fire, and it would be melted, I don't see why the conversation needs to be so long. Since you apparently hate long.
 
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Hidden In Him

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This is quite an important passage for Amillennialists, and I’ll take a moment to explain why. When it says that “he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet”…it has just said that ‘at the end’ he will have defeated ‘the last enemy’, which is death. This implies, to us, that there will be no more enemies afterwards. No Satan coming back after 1000 years with a sinful multitude of man. Those would be enemies, would they not? If death is the last enemy, and Christ defeats it, and lays it at God the Fathers feet when, “at his coming”, the end arrives, it truly must be “the end”. He must have ‘reigned’ completely and fully, bringing everything, every enemy, Satan, mankind and then even death, under his feet.

Paul goes on to say: I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55

Paul is saying that people, as we are now, cannot ‘inherit’ God’s Kingdom. That when Christ returns and gathers us to him, we must be given imperishable bodies. And only then can Christ lay death at his Father’s feet, having fully defeated it. It is a huge theological problem to have death ‘linger’ on, as well as ‘enemies’ into the Millennial Kingdom.

Hey sister! My apologies for taking so long to deal with this, but I didn't have any leading about it yet. But maybe we could discuss some of it now. I haven't read your next posts yet, but I thought we could at least deal with this one and see how it goes. If He leads me I'll move to what you posted next.

But about this passage (and I noticed no one dealt with these passages), death here is clearly a reference to the death of the saints, since it says "We shall all be changed..." The expression "He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet," however, is actually a reference to the wicked. Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, and this is when death will finally be "put under His feet." Let me see if I can copy and paste the verses...

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:13-14).

If you'll notice here, death and hell are used in combination both times, and thus referring to the same group of people; those who have been in Hell, suffering the torments of perpetual "death," i.e. with worms that never die crawling out of their skin, and with rotting flesh, yet never dying. This is the death that He is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15 when he says:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign, until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Notice he says "For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet." It's not talking about something He will do at His return, but a time period during which He will reign after His return. It is referring to the millennium, during which He will reign, yet by the end of it Satan will be loosed one more time and the nations will be deceived into rebelling against Him one more time. I could also show you from scripture that the war of God and Magog when this last battle will occur is clearly set in a time far, far distant from our own. The weaponry returns to being extremely primitive, which is suggestive of what would take place if the earth enjoyed a thousand year's peace and had long forgotten all it knew about highly complex weapons of war.

But I can save that for later. Anyway, it took me forever to pick this thread up, and my sincere apologies because you created it to discuss things specifically with me. If it takes you just as long to get back to it yourself, don't worry about it. I'm not in a rush. :)

Blessings to you, sister, and in case I hadn't said it I enjoy reading your posts.
Hidden

 

Naomi25

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Hey sister! My apologies for taking so long to deal with this, but I didn't have any leading about it yet. But maybe we could discuss some of it now. I haven't read your next posts yet, but I thought we could at least deal with this one and see how it goes. If He leads me I'll move to what you posted next.
Hi! Don't worry about it. Goodness knows I barely find the time to bang out quick answers, let alone try and really sit down for something like I slapped down, sorry!

But about this passage (and I noticed no one dealt with these passages), death here is clearly a reference to the death of the saints, since it says "We shall all be changed..." The expression "He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet," however, is actually a reference to the wicked. Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, and this is when death will finally be "put under His feet." Let me see if I can copy and paste the verses...

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:13-14).

If you'll notice here, death and hell are used in combination both times, and thus referring to the same group of people; those who have been in Hell, suffering the torments of perpetual "death," i.e. with worms that never die crawling out of their skin, and with rotting flesh, yet never dying. This is the death that He is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15 when he says:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign, until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

I see where you're going here, but I'm not sure I can make that logical jump that "death and hell" has to mean those who are already suffering in hell, rather than Jesus talking about the end of death itself.

Consider these verses:

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
-Revelation 20:11–15

This is the passage you are speaking of, that talks of "Death and Hades (or Hell)", and that it is these people, this "death", that you propose 1 Corinthians is talking about.
But it also talks about "The book of life" and about what happens if people are not found in it. Which means this judgement is for both saved and unsaved people. Those in and out of the book of life. Which is a judgement we see somewhere else:

The Final Judgment
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”-Matthew 25:31–33, 46


This is also clearly, the final judgement, where people are judged into eternal life or punishment. And it clearly happens at Christ's second coming. This would clearly cover "Death and Hell" as you claim, but what of death itself? What of that thing that plagues mankind because of sin?

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
Death is swallowed up in victory.
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. -1 Corinthians 15:50–56


These passages are so powerful! They are saying that the moment Christ comes and gives us bodies that are able to be in God's presence, able to enter into the Kingdom he is making for us even now, is the moment death will have lost. Sin will be no more, so death will have lost it's grip!
So for those who believe in a Pre-trib Rapture, this is a problem. Because according to these verses, as soon as the Rapture happens, death, the last enemy, is defeated. Which doesn't sit with the millions who are supposed to die in the Tribulation, or at the end of the Millennium.

1 Corinthians is not talking about the 'second death' of those already in hell. It's talking about the defeat of death that we, as those about to inherit imperishable bodies, will have as soon as that trumpet sounds!

Notice he says "For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet." It's not talking about something He will do at His return, but a time period during which He will reign after His return. It is referring to the millennium, during which He will reign, yet by the end of it Satan will be loosed one more time and the nations will be deceived into rebelling against Him one more time. I could also show you from scripture that the war of God and Magog when this last battle will occur is clearly set in a time far, far distant from our own. The weaponry returns to being extremely primitive, which is suggestive of what would take place if the earth enjoyed a thousand year's peace and had long forgotten all it knew about highly complex weapons of war.

But I can save that for later. Anyway, it took me forever to pick this thread up, and my sincere apologies because you created it to discuss things specifically with me. If it takes you just as long to get back to it yourself, don't worry about it. I'm not in a rush. :)

Blessings to you, sister, and in case I hadn't said it I enjoy reading your posts.
Hidden

Well, I suppose we read it differently, then.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

I see it laying down the condition first of his arrival. Christ comes and delivers us our new bodies (of whom he was the first fruits), then comes the end (which i sort of read as, you know, the end!), when he delivers everything to the Father. That includes death.
So, to me that clearly says that the reign must be happening now, as when he comes, that is the end, and it is when he delivers everything to the Father, including the last enemy: death.

But, you know, that's just how I see it reading, and goodness knows I've been wrong before!
 
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