Amillennialism

[CoreIssue]

I studied amillennialism in the past and debated some believers.

What I quickly discovered was they redefine words, spin meanings, struggle dealing with Israel and by and large just avoid areas they cannot deal with.

So, I urge everyone to compare the bible to what they claim, use a good interlinear to check the actual word meanings and think.

Forget the MK, the two witnesses, the temple, the AOD, forget the rapture, forget Israel, forget the bowls, seals. trumpets and more. Their theology bears no resemblance to what the bible teaches.

Have fun. I am not bogging down in this chaos again.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Final Judgment
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”-Matthew 25:31–33, 46

This is also clearly, the final judgement, where people are judged into eternal life or punishment. And it clearly happens at Christ's second coming. This would clearly cover "Death and Hell" as you claim, but what of death itself? What of that thing that plagues mankind because of sin?

Ok, I think you will like this : ) Or at least I hope you will. I noticed something a while ago. Our Bibles are actually lying to us about this passage, LoL. See the words "The Final Judgment" as your header? I'm guessing you may have copied and pasted this from somewhere, maybe from an online Bible translation that uses headers to summarize the passages of scripture. The Bible I use most often has the same wording in the Chapter summary. The Chapter is supposedly about, "The parable of the ten virgins, of the talents, and also the description of the last judgment."

But it's not the last judgment, LoL. Look:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This isn't about the dead being judged, it's about the nations being judged; those who are still alive on earth when He returns. I can't be the only one who has never noticed this, but obviously the editors of these Bibles didn't because they are being misleading here. The last judgment is actually the Great White Throne judgment that you quoted in the other passage:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

This then would be in complete agreement with Revelation 20:5, which states that the rest of the dead (the wicked dead) are not resurrected until the 1,000 years were completed. The only resurrection that takes place at Christ's return is the resurrection of the just (1 Thessalonians 4).

So a more exacting interpretation of Matthew 25:31-33 suggests these will be two separate and distinct judgments, and since Revelation 20:5 states that the rest of the dead aren't raised until after 1,000 years have passed, this would seem to support the notion of a millennium.

What do you think?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Ok, I think you will like this : ) Or at least I hope you will. I noticed something a while ago. Our Bibles are actually lying to us about this passage, LoL. See the words "The Final Judgment" as your header? I'm guessing you may have copied and pasted this from somewhere, maybe from an online Bible translation that uses headers to summarize the passages of scripture. The Bible I use most often has the same wording in the Chapter summary. The Chapter is supposedly about, "The parable of the ten virgins, of the talents, and also the description of the last judgment."

But it's not the last judgment, LoL. Look:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This isn't about the dead being judged, it's about the nations being judged; those who are still alive on earth when He returns. I can't be the only one who has never noticed this, but obviously the editors of these Bibles didn't because they are being misleading here. The last judgment is actually the Great White Throne judgment that you quoted in the other passage:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

This then would be in complete agreement with Revelation 20:5, which states that the rest of the dead (the wicked dead) are not resurrected until the 1,000 years were completed. The only resurrection that takes place at Christ's return is the resurrection of the just (1 Thessalonians 4).

So a more exacting interpretation of Matthew 25:31-33 suggests these will be two separate and distinct judgments, and since Revelation 20:5 states that the rest of the dead aren't raised until after 1,000 years have passed, this would seem to support the notion of a millennium.

What do you think?

All of this also fully agrees with the order Brakelite listed. Though he didn't place Matthew 25:31-33 into his chronology, his order is entirely in accordance with mine (Note: I didn't include his full quote because we depart from agreement when it comes to what the millennium will be like, but up to the beginning of #6 we are in full agreement):

1. What event begins the millennium? A. Revelation 20:4. A resurrection starts the millennium.
2. What is this resurrection called, and who will be raised in it? A. It is called the first resurrection, and those raised are the Saints from all ages. Revelation 20:5,6
3. The Bible says there are two resurrections, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation. John5:29. When is the second resurrection, and who will be raised in it? A. The rest of the dead... Those who were not saved... Until the 1000 years are finished. Revelation 20:5.
   KJV John 5
   28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
   29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
   So the two resurrections act as bookends at either end of the 1000 years.
4. What other events take place at the beginning of the 1000 years? A. The second coming of Christ...The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. ... And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. The second coming is the final climactic event immediately after the earthquake and hail storm which devastates the planet. Revelation 16:18,21. See also Jeremiah 4:23-26... Isaiah 24::1,3,19,20... Isaiah 2:21.
5. What happens to the wicked, the unsaved, both living and dead, at the second coming? A. With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
   “When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
   “Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
   “The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)
6. The Bible says that Satan is bound during this 1000 years.

 

[brakelite]

All of this also fully agrees with the order Brakelite listed. Though he didn't place Matthew 25:31-33 into his chronology, his order is entirely in accordance with mine (Note: I didn't include his full quote because we depart from agreement when it comes to what the millennium will be like, but up to the beginning of #6 we are in full agreement):

Speaking of that first judgement...the one that must be progressing in heaven now, in order for the angels to get it right when they come and gather the saints...we Adventists have a name for it, but evangelicals, well, almost everybody else, calls it a false doctrine. Glad you recognise it. There is an entire theology that supports it, all intricately connected to the OT sanctuary, linking it with the sanctuary in heaven, and the ministry of Jesus the High Priest there. If you are interested in looking at the topic in more depth, be glad to offer some studies on it.
Just as an edit...we have a work to do during the millennium....Paul mentioned it a couple of times....give you one guess.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Speaking of that first judgement...the one that must be progressing in heaven now, in order for the angels to get it right when they come and gather the saints...we Adventists have a name for it, but evangelicals, well, almost everybody else, calls it a false doctrine. Glad you recognise it. There is an entire theology that supports it, all intricately connected to the OT sanctuary, linking it with the sanctuary in heaven, and the ministry of Jesus the High Priest there. If you are interested in looking at the topic in more depth, be glad to offer some studies on it.

I think you are referring to the Investigative Judgment, yes? I'm familiar with the doctrine, but I didn't know what scripture it was based upon.

Can't say as I buy it either, but maybe we can discuss it another time. Thanks for the heads up, though.

 

[CoreIssue]

Speaking of that first judgement...the one that must be progressing in heaven now, in order for the angels to get it right when they come and gather the saints...we Adventists have a name for it, but evangelicals, well, almost everybody else, calls it a false doctrine. Glad you recognise it. There is an entire theology that supports it, all intricately connected to the OT sanctuary, linking it with the sanctuary in heaven, and the ministry of Jesus the High Priest there. If you are interested in looking at the topic in more depth, be glad to offer some studies on it.
Just as an edit...we have a work to do during the millennium....Paul mentioned it a couple of times....give you one guess.

You cannot find, in the bible, the sanctuary/investigative judgment

It comes from Ellen G White, a false prophetess

 

[brakelite]

You cannot find, in the bible, the sanctuary/investigative judgment

It comes from Ellen G White, a false prophetess

WADR I am becoming more and more convinced that the more often you contribute, the more you reveal your lack of education. You obviously haven't actually studied the topic have you. Taken others word who are as equally ignorant as yourself.
Perhaps you would like to explain to us how Jesus knows who are His and who to destroy at His coming, without first making a judgement?

 

[CoreIssue]

WADR I am becoming more and more convinced that the more often you contribute, the more you reveal your lack of education.

You obviously haven't actually studied the topic have you. Taken others word who are as equally ignorant as yourself.
Perhaps you would like to explain to us how Jesus knows who are His and who to destroy at His coming, without first making a judgement?

Actually I have studied Miller, Millerites, the failed prophecies,the rise of EGW and her group, how small seventh day Adventists is, etc.

As far as who are his and not the bible is quite clear he had foreknowledge. Read Romans 8.

 

[Naomi25]

Ok, I think you will like this : ) Or at least I hope you will. I noticed something a while ago. Our Bibles are actually lying to us about this passage, LoL. See the words "The Final Judgment" as your header? I'm guessing you may have copied and pasted this from somewhere, maybe from an online Bible translation that uses headers to summarize the passages of scripture. The Bible I use most often has the same wording in the Chapter summary. The Chapter is supposedly about, "The parable of the ten virgins, of the talents, and also the description of the last judgment."

But it's not the last judgment, LoL. Look:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This isn't about the dead being judged, it's about the nations being judged; those who are still alive on earth when He returns. I can't be the only one who has never noticed this, but obviously the editors of these Bibles didn't because they are being misleading here. The last judgment is actually the Great White Throne judgment that you quoted in the other passage:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

This then would be in complete agreement with Revelation 20:5, which states that the rest of the dead (the wicked dead) are not resurrected until the 1,000 years were completed. The only resurrection that takes place at Christ's return is the resurrection of the just (1 Thessalonians 4).

So a more exacting interpretation of Matthew 25:31-33 suggests these will be two separate and distinct judgments, and since Revelation 20:5 states that the rest of the dead aren't raised until after 1,000 years have passed, this would seem to support the notion of a millennium.

What do you think?

Well, you're right, Matt 25 doesn't mention anything about the dead being judged. But, does that mean that they are not at the same time? Can we find anywhere else in scripture that tells us that when Christ raises and judges the dead, he also judges the living as well? Because if we can find any passages that support that, then we're on pretty good ground, I think, for saying that it is the same event, really. And that would mean needing to consider the Millennium. So...I'm just going to shoot out some verses that talk about it and think out-loud, if you don't mind!


For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1

There are plenty of other verses that talk of Christ judging the living and dead, or of Christ's judgement seat, but these two specifically talk about timing and about who. Both living and dead are raised at Christ's return and at his 'appearing' the living and dead are judged. I know that 1 Thess 4 only speaks about the dead in Christ, but when we look at the Great White Throne Judgement, it also talks about those whose names are found in the Book of Life...so it's talking about those who are saved as well. So we clearly have overlap of some sort.
I think if nothing else that should cause us to consider the fact that these events could be the same.
But then, that's just me

 

[brakelite]

Actually I have studied Miller, Millerites, the failed prophecies,the rise of EGW and her group, how small seventh day Adventists is, etc.

As far as who are his and not the bible is quite clear he had foreknowledge. Read Romans 8.

I find that when most people say " they have studied the Millerites , EGW , Adventists" etc, the study consists of reading all the sites that oppose them. Is like learning about a person by asking his enemies "what is he like"?
Have you read a study on the investigative judgement from an Adventist scholar? Did you get your information on EGW from her own writings, or from what others say about her? Might I suggest that if you want to know the truth about someone and what they teach... Ask them.
You stated "how small Adventists is". What do you mean by that?

 

[CoreIssue]

I find that when most people say " they have studied the Millerites , EGW , Adventists" etc, the study consists of reading all the sites that oppose them. Is like learning about a person by asking his enemies "what is he like"?
Have you read a study on the investigative judgement from an Adventist scholar? Did you get your information on EGW from her own writings, or from what others say about her? Might I suggest that if you want to know the truth about someone and what they teach... Ask them.
You stated "how small Adventists is". What do you mean by that?

I did my research many years ago. I also I also listened to debates on the John Ankerber show. So my studies have been fair and balanced. I never does look a one side of an issue, which comes from my days in national intelligence and politics.

Can you say the same?

 

[Dave L]

I studied amillennialism in the past and debated some believers.

What I quickly discovered was they redefine words, spin meanings, struggle dealing with Israel and by and large just avoid areas they cannot deal with.

So, I urge everyone to compare the bible to what they claim, use a good interlinear to check the actual word meanings and think.

Forget the MK, the two witnesses, the temple, the AOD, forget the rapture, forget Israel, forget the bowls, seals. trumpets and more. Their theology bears no resemblance to what the bible teaches.

Have fun. I am not bogging down in this chaos again.

This is a totally false caricature of Amillennialism.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, you're right, Matt 25 doesn't mention anything about the dead being judged. But, does that mean that they are not at the same time? Can we find anywhere else in scripture that tells us that when Christ raises and judges the dead, he also judges the living as well? Because if we can find any passages that support that, then we're on pretty good ground, I think, for saying that it is the same event, really. And that would mean needing to consider the Millennium. So...I'm just going to shoot out some verses that talk about it and think out-loud, if you don't mind!


For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: -2 Timothy 4:1

There are plenty of other verses that talk of Christ judging the living and dead, or of Christ's judgement seat, but these two specifically talk about timing and about who. Both living and dead are raised at Christ's return and at his 'appearing' the living and dead are judged. I know that 1 Thess 4 only speaks about the dead in Christ, but when we look at the Great White Throne Judgement, it also talks about those whose names are found in the Book of Life...so it's talking about those who are saved as well. So we clearly have overlap of some sort.
I think if nothing else that should cause us to consider the fact that these events could be the same.
But then, that's just me

Well, I think we may be hopelessly at odds again, LoL.

Let me take a look at the rest of your OPs and see if there's something else we might be able to discuss. I'll try to catch up with you tomorrow maybe.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Many people have issues over this for two (at least) reasons. 1: they don’t like the non-literal interpretation of the 1000 years, and 2: they can’t quite figure out how we have Satan as ‘bound’ now.

Naomi, about this, I was looking up Amillenialism on Wikipedia.
Do you believe that both the Millennium began and Satan was bound at Pentecost?

"Amillennialism rejects the idea of a future millennium in which Christ will reign on earth prior to the eternal state beginning, but holds... that at Pentecost (or days earlier, at the Ascension), the millennium began, citing Acts 2:16-21, where Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 on the coming of the kingdom, to explain what is happening."
Amillennialism - Wikipedia

 

[Hidden In Him]

during the Millennium (whenever that time is; and for the sake of my argument I’m saying that it’s the time we are in now) is that Satan was bound by Christ’s first coming, to stop him from deceiving the nations. The reason for him being bound is quite specific, and a lot of people go straight past that. “If he’s bound, why is there still suffering, death and evil?” they ask. Well…he’s only bound against deceiving the nations…more…he’s bound against deceiving them “to gather them for war”.

Also, about this, what do you interpret the pit to be that Satan was cast into? ("And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him... And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations...").

 

[brakelite]

I did my research many years ago. I also I also listened to debates on the John Ankerber show. So my studies have been fair and balanced. I never does look a one side of an issue, which comes from my days in national intelligence and politics.

Can you say the same?

I started life Catholic. Was converted at age 24...42 years ago. After some a little time in Presbyterian, I joined the AOG. Was there for as lay preacher and youth leader for 10 years. For several reasons I fell, or drifted, away from church, and the Christian lifestyle. As a result my marriage began to fall apart, and my children started into the same life I imbibed in before I became a Christian. I was left with only one choice. Allow my entire family to disintegrate and end up goodness knows where, or repent and return to Jesus.
I turned to Jesus. His promise to me at that time we if I sought His kingdom and His righteousness, he would save my family. I did and He did.
But when I came back to Him, I asked him for a new beginning. I did not want to go over the same road...I wanted truth...I had way too many gaps in understanding of theology...I had only a very shallow understanding of soteriology (similar to many of the views on this forum) and the only understanding of eschatology was based on Hal Lindsay's The Late Great Planet Earth. I never could reconcile his beliefs with scripture... So I wanted to understand and give my faith a firm foundation.
It was Jesus that led me to the SDA church. When I sat down to study their teachings I spent 6 months ( I was unemployed.. every day and all day with my Bible, concordance, and their fundamental doctrines comparing scripture with scripture) before accepting the basics...a further 5 years before I committed myself as a member. I have no regrets. And I did not rely on my secular past or natural intelligence to come to my decision. I had the holy Spirit with me every step of the way. And despite the antagonism and opposition I met along the way, the unreasonable and unwarranted accusations of heresy and sectarianism we still get from every quarter, I am more convinced today than I was 20 years ago when I began my search for truth. I have come across no sound biblical reason to change my mind on Adventism. And your time didn't in "intelligence" means nothing when it comes to understand spiritual matters.
Is that thorough enough do you think?

 

[Naomi25]

Well, I think we may be hopelessly at odds again, LoL.

Let me take a look at the rest of your OPs and see if there's something else we might be able to discuss. I'll try to catch up with you tomorrow maybe.

I was thinking about it all after I answered, and I think a big part of it all, for me, comes down to, well, his "coming". As I went through in my OP (okay, fine, my OPs...plural), it just seems pretty cut and dry to me that Jesus has 1 second coming. So...all these references of "on that day", or "when he comes" or "the Day of the Lord" or "see him coming" or "the coming of the Lord" or "then at his coming"....or any of the other ones....they all seem to be one event. Are they described as different events? Parousia 1 verses Parousia 2? The "first" followed by "the sequel"? I'm being a little facetious here, I know, but truly! Where does any of these references tell us to infer degrees of coming??
It makes me, well, nervous to read separate comings into these events where it just doesn't say it.
So, when I come to text like the ones above and I see them saying that these things happen on Christ's return...I am likely to believe it happens on the 'one and only' return.

Of course, as I've said, I'm not opposed to be shown wrong in this matter. I am, what you could probably term a genuine seeker. I do have what I think is accurate now, but questions remain, so I like to keep an open mind!

 

[Naomi25]

Naomi, about this, I was looking up Amillenialism on Wikipedia.
Do you believe that both the Millennium began and Satan was bound at Pentecost?

"Amillennialism rejects the idea of a future millennium in which Christ will reign on earth prior to the eternal state beginning, but holds... that at Pentecost (or days earlier, at the Ascension), the millennium began, citing Acts 2:16-21, where Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 on the coming of the kingdom, to explain what is happening."
Amillennialism - Wikipedia

Actually...this is interesting. I've not heard the Pentecost version of it, myself. What I've heard is that when Jesus says in Luke 10:17-18:
The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

That this is the moment, in actual fact. And I think the reason goes something like this:
Satan is bound in Rev 20, not from pursuing evil, or self interest or any other such things on earth during this time (when he is supposedly bound), but from decieving the nations with a particular intent to go to war against the Saints. When Jesus came, proclaiming the Kingdom of God had come, that was the beginning of the end for Satan. The gospel began going forth with a power that could not...would not, be stopped. Christians could be beaten, imprisioned, persecuted, starved, ostracised...but you cannot stop the gospel. It has spread across the face of the planet with a fervor that has both baffled and enraged the governments of this world. In fact, have you noticed how the gospel seems to flourish in the most closed, persecuted countries? No matter how much hatred there is against Christ and his Kingdom, Satan cannot squash it. He is bound. For now.
So yes...yes I suppose I do believe that.

 

[Naomi25]

Also, about this, what do you interpret the pit to be that Satan was cast into? ("And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him... And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations...").

To be perfectly honest with you...hadn't ever thought about it.
I suppose I had lumped it in the category of 'figurative' with the giant key and chain. A literal key and chain probably can't hold a spirit being, so, you know...chalked that up to figurative. The pit...nope...would have to do a bit of actually thinking on that one!

 

[Naomi25]

I studied amillennialism in the past and debated some believers.

What I quickly discovered was they redefine words, spin meanings, struggle dealing with Israel and by and large just avoid areas they cannot deal with.

So, I urge everyone to compare the bible to what they claim, use a good interlinear to check the actual word meanings and think.

Forget the MK, the two witnesses, the temple, the AOD, forget the rapture, forget Israel, forget the bowls, seals. trumpets and more. Their theology bears no resemblance to what the bible teaches.

Have fun. I am not bogging down in this chaos again.

It sort of depends on where you are standing I suppose. Because from here, I'm not spinning words or redifining them, I'm attempting to deal with what's actually written in the passage at hand. You, on the other hand, seem happy to read into them what is simply, literally, not there.

So, yeah...matter of perspective. But I'm happy where I am if you're happy where you are.