And...God didn't say...

[OzSpen]

Yes, there will be eternal consequences and for a time they will be conscious and experience suffering. Call it torment by all means. But it ends in death. Like the useless branches of the tree that are cut down and burned, so are sinners...but they are burned up...completely and entirely till all that is left is dust. Malachi 4:1.

The question we need to seriously ask ourselves is this. How does God glory in deliberately and with special determination and power keep sinners alive for the sole purpose of inflicting torment and suffering? Particularly when one considers that such punishment has never been taught or promised in scripture...the consequences of sin, from Genesis to Revelation, has consistently been death. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die".
While contemplating the above, we are also taught that sin separates the sinner from God. Now in the case of those who repent, we have the mercy and grace of God demonstrated by God's heavenly gift of His only begotten Son, who from the very first in Eden stepped up and offered Himself in man's place, thus saving all who seek Him from the obliteration. But those who do not repent...those who die in their sin having no Savior and no Mediator, and thus completely separated from God without anyone to intervene on their behalf...how do they manage to continue to live forever without any connection to the only source of life????

So you have no other biblical support than Mal 4:1, which states, '‘Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,’ says the Lord Almighty. ‘Not a root or a branch will be left to them' (NIV).

The context of Mal 4:1-6 states:

‘Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,’ says the Lord Almighty. ‘Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,’ says the Lord Almighty.

4 ‘Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 ‘See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction (NIV).
​

This is what the context from Mal 3:16-18 (NIV) states:

The faithful remnant
16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honoured his name.

17 ‘On the day when I act,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.​

So Malachi 3-4 deals with a judgment on Israel.

I urge you not to impose your meaning on the text but allow the meaning to come out of the text in faithful exegesis.

Oz

 

[APAK]

I find man's construction by God is revealing re the question of spirit.

It tells us that God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life or spirit of life or the life force and man became a living soul.
Neither the dust or the breath (spirit or life force) has consciousness in its own right. Only when God combined the two was consciousness present (soul). One can for the sake of clarity and brevity say that this consciousness represents the spirit of a man. We can also use the expression 'spirit of a man' to identify his character. These are only a figures of speech. It does not imply that the spirit has consciousness independent of the body.

Death is no other than the reversal of this process. Dust back to dust and the spirit back to God who gave it thus the soul ceases to be . There is no waiting room for disembodied spirits.

I don't think it is sound exegesis to say that God has a bag full of disembodied conscious spirits within his reality that he then gives bodies to at some stage.

All who have died in earths history sleep in the dust of the earth awaiting a resurrection. The scripture calls this the first death which all who die partake of, good and bad alike.
There will be the resurrection of the just when Jesus returns. This is called the first resurrection where we meet him in the air.
At a later stage there will be resurrection of the wicked for judgement. The scripture calls this the second resurrection and their judgment (which will be death aka wiped out, non existence) the scripture calls the second death. Revelation 20:4-6
I might add, one needs to read the fore and after texts of any references as always to get the context.

Between the moment of death and the resurrection of either of the two groups there is no consciousness irrespective of wether one hour has transpired or ten thousand years. From the moment of death to the resurrection for the individual will be as if no time has transpired therefore Paul can say that he is undecided wether to lay off this body and be with the Lord or to stick around for the benefit of the Church. Paul knew the moment he closed his eyes in death will be the moment of being resurrected which of course means to be with the Lord. In fact nobody will go ahead of anybody else to meet Jesus. The resurrected dead saints and the living saints will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

Really like your writing on this topic. I’ve come to believe it myself over the years.

There is just one item that I still ponder on: the meaning of the 2nd death. It seems to indicate this is the same as those destined for the ‘lake of fire.’

Can one be 100% sure that the 2nd death means the total annihilation of the person with God’s spirit given to a wicked person destined to never be in God’s presence?

As you said in my words: the 1st death is the separation of the physical body from the spirit back to God that gave it.

Now when the wicked are raised, what is raised? Is it not their ‘old’ spirit that was in their bodies whilst they live on the earth? Or something else? I think the former.

This wicked person has a wicked spirit? Is God going to destroy his own/ part of himself? It seems impossible or illogical. Is God going to cleanse this wicked spirit and then removed it by force from this wicked person and he then becomes NOTHING, without any spirit?

Just fielding this idea out in sincerity.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Helen]

Getting there..... :)

 

[Ac28]

Ac28,

Your perspective disagrees with ...

Sheol, the Old Testament place for the righteous and unrighteous at death

The following examples of the use of Sheol, where people went at death in the OT use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:

1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.

2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).

3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.

4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.

5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).

6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Keil & Delitzsch n d:52).

7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.

8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccles 9:10, etc.)

9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:

a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.

From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).

Not once does Sheol in the Old Testament mean non-existence or annihilation.
(from my article, Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?)

Oz

Every scripture quoted involves Israel and all Israel will be saved. Where is scripture concerning pagan ungodly Gentiles and the grave? Most all the language in your quotes is figurative. The term, "gathering unto his people" is repeated over and over and is obviously figurative. There is not one "smoking gun" verse in the ones you quoted to prove that the ungodly do not cease to exist. I looked at most all of them, and they are all very iffy, as to what you're trying to prove, in my opinion.

Man, when alive, is composed of the dust of the earth (chemicals) and the breath of life (spirit). Together, these make up a living soul (a live person), Gen 2:7. The existence of an invisible separate part of man, called a soul, that either goes to heaven or hell when the person dies, is a pagan myth, with no Biblical backing, if one is honest with the scriptures. When one dies, the spirit returns to God who gave it and the result is a dead soul (person). For those that will take part in a resurrection, the figurative term "sleep" is used, in both the OT and NT. During real sleep, a person is not conscious of anything - the same with the sleep of death. Everything concerning sheol that you've quoted is figurative and I saw nothing that applies to a person that will not have a place in a resurrection. The only part that truly represents the dead saint is the Spirit in God's possession. At the final judgment, I know of no verse that says the ungodly, when raised to be judged, are alive.

I admit that I don't know the OT that well. The reason is that, since I am positive that I divide God's word rightly, 2Tim 2:15, I know that the things that apply directly to me and everyone living during the last 1900+ years, as far as our only possible hope and calling are concerned, has nothing to do with Israel, at all, at least not until the marriage of the Lamb and the formation of the One New Man. Also, from right division, I am positive that everything during Acts was set aside 1900+ years ago, and the only place where we can find out about our hope and calling are in the 7 books written by Paul, after Acts. In them, we find a New, non-Israel church that, unlike any group in the other 59 books of the Bible, has a calling of the Heaven of Heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God, as its eternal abode. 2Tim 2:15 is the #1 key to Bible understanding, and especially the NT. Anyone not rightly dividing God's word is severely limited as to what they could possibly understand about NT Bible truth, concerning their own future. That's a fact, not a supposition.

 

[quietthinker]

Really like your writing on this topic. I’ve come to believe it myself over the years.

There is just one item that I still ponder on: the meaning of the 2nd death. It seems to indicate this is the same as those destined for the ‘lake of fire.’
Yes, it is the same. The lake of fire is the means by which the 2nd death is accomplished for both Satan and his followers wether it be men or demons. It will burn till all is consumed. Its purpose is to consume. When everything that causes and is sin is consumed its purpose will have been fulfilled.

Can one be 100% sure that the 2nd death means the total annihilation of the person with God’s spirit given to a wicked person destined to never be in God’s presence?
The spirit of life is not a consciousness entity. It is the life force which animates the dust the combination of which results in a soul (consciousness) It is the soul that is destroyed.
We can be certain of this because it is Gods objective to cleanse the universe of everything that causes sin and is sin so that the whole created order again pulses with harmony and joy.


As you said in my words: the 1st death is the separation of the physical body from the spirit back to God that gave it.
Yes.

Now when the wicked are raised, what is raised? The soul is raised aka, A conscious person. Is it not their ‘old’ spirit that was in their bodies whilst they live on the earth? Or something else? I think the former.
The life force from God (spirit) again animates the dust of these wicked dead. They are raised in the same condition they went into the grave, old and sick, diseased and faulting with the same mindset and animosity towards God as when they died.
Conversely, when the righteous are raised they will leave all the evidences of sin ie, ageing and sickness, disease and faulting in the grave as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. The prize will be immortality and imperishability.

An Example:
The life force is like the electricity that enlivens the element of a light globe. When the electricity surges through the element it becomes alive so to speak. It does what it was intended to do, it glows. When the power is turned off, the glow doesn't go anywhere, it just ceases to be. The power (electricity) itself one could say is reunited with its source and the element stays as it originally was.

The body = the element + the spirit = the electricity which results in the glow = the soul (enlivend and conscious )


This wicked person has a wicked spirit? The sense in which 'wicked spirit' is used is a different sense to the use of the word 'spirit' in creation. Is God going to destroy his own/ part of himself? No, of course not. It seems impossible or illogical. Is God going to cleanse this wicked spirit and then removed it by force from this wicked person and he then becomes NOTHING, without any spirit?
It is the soul that is destroyed and this time eternally, no reversal. It is an everlasting punishment. This is the second death.

Just fielding this idea out in sincerity.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[quietthinker]

See my rely on APAK'S post above. I have edited into his post in bolded and italics. You must click to expand the post.

If this is too confusing let me know and I won't use this method again.

 

[Helen]

See above post editing.

I don't understand..it just all looks like APAK'S quote!
If you wrote anything there, it is all lost within his.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't understand..it just all looks like APAK'S quote!
If you wrote anything there, it is all lost within his.

I have bolded and italic my reply to his questions under the questions themselves on APAK's post

 

[APAK]

See above post editing in bolded and italics. My reply on APAK's post.
If this is too confusing let me know and I won't use this method again.

It's all good, I understand it all and that you use the term soul not just for the spirit + earthly body, which is common, but also for the spirit + spiritual body which is not common....although 'logical'

I still will ponder on this question of what is the 2nd death, despite your clear explanation. I used to be an astro/aeronautical engineer and I'm used to having or finding more data and viable concepts, no matter the time frame, to be used to 'construct' and lay out my case...this is a sobering subject and question.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, it is a sobering subject. It has implications that many are not aware of which is in their interest to be aware of.

 

[Enoch111]

Can one be 100% sure that the 2nd death means the total annihilation of the person with God’s spirit given to a wicked person destined to never be in God’s presence?

Annihilationism is not taught in Scripture. The words *destroy* and *perish* mean eternal ruin and eternal loss (with eternal torment), not vaporization. Check out all the concordances and lexicons, as well as the total teaching on the fate of the wicked in the NT.

Now when the wicked are raised, what is raised? Is it not their ‘old’ spirit that was in their bodies whilst they live on the earth? Or something else? I think the former.

"Raised" (equivalent to resurrected) applies only to physical bodies. Spirits and souls are immaterial, but bodies are raised from the dust.

 

[OzSpen]

Every scripture quoted involves Israel and all Israel will be saved. Where is scripture concerning pagan ungodly Gentiles and the grave? Most all the language in your quotes is figurative. The term, "gathering unto his people" is repeated over and over and is obviously figurative. There is not one "smoking gun" verse in the ones you quoted to prove that the ungodly do not cease to exist. I looked at most all of them, and they are all very iffy, as to what you're trying to prove, in my opinion.

Ac28,

You provided not one piece of exposition here to demonstrate that the verses support your theory of annihilation and not the evidence of conscious punishment.

Of course all of my Scriptures quoted were from the OT.

Why?

Because of the title of my post, 'Sheol, the Old Testament place for the righteous and unrighteous at death'.

Not once did these OT verses refer to annihilation, but consciousness after death. That's what the OT and NT both teach.

I'll pick up one NT verse to demonstrate that life-after-death for the unbeliever does not amount to annihilation.

This is what 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV) states:

They [those who do not know God, v8] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Here in context, we are told the nature of this ‘destruction’. Second Thess 1:7-8 says of unbelievers (those inflicting punishment on the believers at Thessalonica) that ‘God considers it just to repay with affliction…. inflicting vengeance’. That’s the language of God and he says that this is what happens when ‘they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’ (1:9).

In summary, this is what the Scriptures state in the context of 2 Thess. 1:7-9.

• unbelievers will be repaid with affliction;
• In this affliction, God is inflicting vengeance;
• This vengeance is called ‘eternal destruction’’;
• And it means being ‘away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’.

This is the justice that all unbelievers will receive from the absolutely just Almighty God of the universe. ‘Destruction’ in 2 Thess 1:9 is a descriptive term and it tells us its content. Those who want to find destruction to mean something that is destroyed and that’s the end, do not find support in this verse because of the Greek word, aiwnios (eternal).

There is no time frame here. It is timeless eternity and this destruction goes on to the aeon to come. This is what the adjective, aiwnios, means. It is true that the eternal life of the believers is as long at the eternal destruction of unbelievers.

Second Thess 1:9 says that this will be happening ‘away from the presence of the Lord’ and from ‘the glory of his might’. Please don’t minimise the seriousness of this destruction. The saints are surrounded by the glory of the Lord God’s presence. The unbelievers are excluded from the presence of the Lord and are experiencing God’s vengeance by means of eternal destruction. You and I don’t invent the meaning of ‘destruction’. It is explained in context.

Elsewhere the experience of unbelievers after death is described as being sent to the place where it is ‘outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’ (Matt. 22:13). That is not annihilation.

In 2 Thess. 1:9, the fact that destruction is eternal, never ending (see also 1 Thess 5:3; 1 Cor 5:5: 1 Tim 6:9) means that it does not support annihilation, i.e. being zapped out of existence at the point of death.

Everlasting destruction is the manifestation of God’s vengeance and is the very opposite of everlasting life to be experienced by the believers. (from my article, Does eternal destruction mean annihilation for unbelievers at death?)

You stated:

'The term, "gathering unto his people" is repeated over and over and is obviously figurative'.​

Is that so? That is your opinion but you provided not one piece of exposition to demonstrate that 'gathering unto his people' is used figuratively. I do wish you wouldn't do this as it gives nothing but your suppositions.

I provided evidence in #96, some of which is:

Sheol is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.

Let's examine Gen 15:10-26 (NIV) as an example in context:

'10 Abram brought all these [a heifer, a goat and a ram] to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, ‘Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and ill-treated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterwards they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.’​

This passage from vv 10-16 demonstrate how literal it is by referring to:

• Abram;
• He fell into a deep sleep (or is that figurative?)
• four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country
• they will be enslaved and ill-treated
• I will punish the nation they serve as slaves
• afterwards they will come out with great possessions
• All of this information is literal up to this point but you want to 'go to your ancestors' to be figurative. There is not a shred of evidence to support that view in Gen 15:15. It's a literal statement of going to be with their ancestors at death. It was the place of life-after-death for these Israelites.
  
• Fourth generation [of] your descendants
• sin of the Amorites,

So, what does 'go to your ancestors [fathers]' mean to the Israelites? It includes more than having a dead body laid with the dead bodies of relatives [fathers]. Even back in the patriarchal age, we see a clear reference to continuing life beyond the grave.

How do we know? Where was Abram buried? In Canaan (Gen 25:9). Where were his ancestors buried? Not in the Promised Land! So it can't refer to physical burial. Everything around Gen 15:15 points to 'go to your ancestors' not being figurative but demonstration of life-after-death for the Israelites.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

From Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20: 4-6 I find two distinct resurrections. The first is described in detail in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 and 1 Thess.4:15-17. This event takes place at the second coming....

brakelite,

That didn't deal with my question: 'From where in Scripture do you gain that understanding?' My question related to your belief in soul sleep at death. The Lazarus example doesn't support your case.

You've missed something from the story of Lazarus's resurrection when you stated:

Jesus Himself described the death of Lazarus a sleep, from which He was about to awaken him. This is what takes place at the second coming and is described as such in scripture, when the archangel shouts and awakens the righteous to consciousness.

There are many words in many languages (including English) that have a number of unrelated meanings. We see this with the language of ‘sleep’. Webster’s dictionary defines it three ways, one of which is: ‘a natural, regularly recurring condition of rest for the body and mind, during which there is little or no conscious thoughts, sensation, or movement’ (Webster 1978:1706).

However there are many different meanings to ‘sleep’ when statements such as these are made:

(1) My foot went to sleep (meaning that sensation was lost in my foot;

(2) I’ll sleep on it, which means that I will think about the issue and try to come up with an answer later;

(3) My children’s friends are coming for a sleepover, i.e. the children’s friends will come to sleep at our place for the night and there is likely to be a long night of talking, playing games, and favourite party food;

(4) That couple is sleeping together, meaning they are having sex;

(5) There are sleeper cells in this country, which is an indication that there are terrorists awaiting their opportunities to strike;

(6) I had to put my dog to sleep, meaning that I took the dog to the vet and he euthanised (killed) him/her (many of these ideas suggested by Dr John Roller n d, ‘Soul sleep’, but the article is no longer online).

New Testament scholar, Dr. N. T. Wright, wrote that “when ancient Jews, pagans and Christians used the word ‘sleep’ to denote death, they were using a metaphor to refer to a concrete state of affairs.We sometimes use the same language the other way round: a heavy sleeper is ‘dead to the world'” (Wright 2003, p. xix).

When my father died in 1973 and I saw him in his coffin, he looked as though he was asleep. This is how we are to understand the language of sleep associated with death in the Bible. “Sleep” of the body is a metaphor that refers to death.

This is what you forgot from the story of Lazarus and it's a critical issue.

This is what was stated in John 11:5-44? Of Lazarus, it was said that he “has fallen asleep” and Jesus was going “to awaken him” (v. 11). Jesus was very clear what he had meant by “sleep.” “Now Jesus had spoken of his death” (v. 13). “Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus has died'” (v. 14). Jesus explains further: “Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (v. 26).

So, in this situation we have this kind of language used: Lazarus died and he looked as though he was asleep but the truth was that, because Lazarus believed in Jesus, Lazarus would never die. That sounds paradoxical but it's the truth.

He died but he would never die! This means that the believer who dies physically and appears to be asleep (a metaphor), does not die because his unseen soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord, thus meaning that the believer never really dies. At death, the believer’s real being (his/her soul) goes into the presence of the Lord (see 2 Cor. 5:8) [from my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation).

The consciousness of believer and unbeliever after death is investigated in my article, Immortality of the Soul.

Oz

Works consulted

Wright, N. T. 2003, The Resurrection of the Son of God, series in Christian origins and the Question of God, vol. 3, Fortress Press, Minneapolis.

 

[APAK]

Annihilationism is not taught in Scripture. The words *destroy* and *perish* mean eternal ruin and eternal loss (with eternal torment), not vaporization. Check out all the concordances and lexicons, as well as the total teaching on the fate of the wicked in the NT.

"Raised" (equivalent to resurrected) applies only to physical bodies. Spirits and souls are immaterial, but bodies are raised from the dust.

Enoch: Yes, your writing, as I've seen some like it before, and my analysis is the reason why I not convinced about the 'total destruction' view.
Especially when I look at verses like Rev 2:11, that speaks of 'harm' or 'injury' that the 2nd death will cause and not total annihilation.

Thanks for this insightful information.

(Rev 2:11) He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death. (NEV)


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Ac28]

Ac28,

You provided not one piece of exposition here to demonstrate that the verses support your theory of annihilation and not the evidence of conscious punishment.

Of course all of my Scriptures quoted were from the OT.

Why?

Because of the title of my post, 'Sheol, the Old Testament place for the righteous and unrighteous at death'.

Not once did these OT verses refer to annihilation, but consciousness after death. That's what the OT and NT both teach.

I'll pick up one NT verse to demonstrate that life-after-death for the unbeliever does not amount to annihilation.

This is what 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV) states:



Here in context, we are told the nature of this ‘destruction’. Second Thess 1:7-8 says of unbelievers (those inflicting punishment on the believers at Thessalonica) that ‘God considers it just to repay with affliction…. inflicting vengeance’. That’s the language of God and he says that this is what happens when ‘they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’ (1:9).

In summary, this is what the Scriptures state in the context of 2 Thess. 1:7-9.

• unbelievers will be repaid with affliction;
• In this affliction, God is inflicting vengeance;
• This vengeance is called ‘eternal destruction’’;
• And it means being ‘away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might’.

This is the justice that all unbelievers will receive from the absolutely just Almighty God of the universe. ‘Destruction’ in 2 Thess 1:9 is a descriptive term and it tells us its content. Those who want to find destruction to mean something that is destroyed and that’s the end, do not find support in this verse because of the Greek word, aiwnios (eternal).

There is no time frame here. It is timeless eternity and this destruction goes on to the aeon to come. This is what the adjective, aiwnios, means. It is true that the eternal life of the believers is as long at the eternal destruction of unbelievers.

Second Thess 1:9 says that this will be happening ‘away from the presence of the Lord’ and from ‘the glory of his might’. Please don’t minimise the seriousness of this destruction. The saints are surrounded by the glory of the Lord God’s presence. The unbelievers are excluded from the presence of the Lord and are experiencing God’s vengeance by means of eternal destruction. You and I don’t invent the meaning of ‘destruction’. It is explained in context.

Elsewhere the experience of unbelievers after death is described as being sent to the place where it is ‘outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’ (Matt. 22:13). That is not annihilation.

In 2 Thess. 1:9, the fact that destruction is eternal, never ending (see also 1 Thess 5:3; 1 Cor 5:5: 1 Tim 6:9) means that it does not support annihilation, i.e. being zapped out of existence at the point of death.

Everlasting destruction is the manifestation of God’s vengeance and is the very opposite of everlasting life to be experienced by the believers. (from my article, Does eternal destruction mean annihilation for unbelievers at death?)

You stated:

'The term, "gathering unto his people" is repeated over and over and is obviously figurative'.​

Is that so? That is your opinion but you provided not one piece of exposition to demonstrate that 'gathering unto his people' is used figuratively. I do wish you wouldn't do this as it gives nothing but your suppositions.

I provided evidence in #96, some of which is:

Sheol is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.

Let's examine Gen 15:10-26 (NIV) as an example in context:

'10 Abram brought all these [a heifer, a goat and a ram] to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, ‘Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and ill-treated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterwards they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.’​

This passage from vv 10-16 demonstrate how literal it is by referring to:

• Abram;
• He fell into a deep sleep (or is that figurative?)
• four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country
• they will be enslaved and ill-treated
• I will punish the nation they serve as slaves
• afterwards they will come out with great possessions
• All of this information is literal up to this point but you want to 'go to your ancestors' to be figurative. There is not a shred of evidence to support that view in Gen 15:15. It's a literal statement of going to be with their ancestors at death. It was the place of life-after-death for these Israelites.
  
• Fourth generation [of] your descendants
• sin of the Amorites,

So, what does 'go to your ancestors [fathers]' mean to the Israelites? It includes more than having a dead body laid with the dead bodies of relatives [fathers]. Even back in the patriarchal age, we see a clear reference to continuing life beyond the grave.

How do we know? Where was Abram buried? In Canaan (Gen 25:9). Where were his ancestors buried? Not in the Promised Land! So it can't refer to physical burial. Everything around Gen 15:15 points to 'go to your ancestors' not being figurative but demonstration of life-after-death for the Israelites.

Oz

Destruction means to destroy or, ruin, and one destroyed would be eliminated, ceased to exist, perished. Eternal destruction would be that one would cease to exist forever.

I see no evidence of consciousness in the grave. I do see a lot of figures of speech used

I don't think "sleep" is ever used for the dead unbeliever.

I see zero proof that our loving God tortures those who don't believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, even though Christ died for the sins of the whole world and not just those who believe. To believe in hell is the ultimate insult to God.

In Bullinger's definitive 1000 page, "Figures of Speech in the Bible", he mentions these Jewish figures for death and burial.
2 Kings 22:20 . "I will gather thee unto thy fathers ( i.e. , thou shalt die), and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave ( i.e. , be buried) in peace.”"

About this figure, Euphemy, also called Periploce, Chroma, or Involutio. The word Chroma means an embellishment
Euphemy is a figure by which a harsh or disagreeable expression is changed for a
pleasant and agreeable one; or, where an offensive word or expression is changed for a gentle one; or an indelicate word for a modest word.

It's a Euphemism. A modern day example would be to call a housewife a "domestic technician" or the employment office the "Human Resources Office"

There are more than 200 different types of figures of speech and over 8000 instances of these figures in the Bible. The Figures of Speech book can be downloaded free. No Copyright that I know of. He died about 105 years ago.
Fellowship Bible Church, Orlando, FL


I think some OT verses that deal with fire refer to the destruction of the Old Earth. Of course, any remains in the graves would be totally annihilated.

 

[OzSpen]

Destruction means to destroy or, ruin, and one destroyed would be eliminated, ceased to exist, perished. Eternal destruction would be that one would cease to exist forever.

I see no evidence of consciousness in the grave. I do see a lot of figures of speech used

I don't think "sleep" is ever used for the dead unbeliever.

Ac,

Just about every point you made in your thread can be refuted with biblical evidence, thus demonstrating this is your opinion, not based on biblical exegesis.

I backed over my son's toy truck. It was destroyed but it did not cease to exist. It was not annihilated.

Of course there is no evidence for consciousness of the dead body in the grave but human beings are more than bodies. It's the soul/spirit that is alive and conscious.

Does the soul continue to interact between physical death and the resurrection? These verses teach that:

(1) Unbelievers:

• In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
• Are “under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);

(2) Believers:

• Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
• Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);
  
  
• Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);
  
  
• Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to “be with Christ” (Phil. 1:23);
  
  
• Who are martyred souls “cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.

Believers will be like Christ after their physical death (see passages such as Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 15:49; Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:2). They will be with Him (eg John 14:3; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 3:18; 4:17, etc.). They will share Christ’s glory (Rom. 8:18, 30; 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:17, etc.); they will share Christ’s reign (2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 2:26-27; etc.). As children of God, in that intermediate state, we will enjoy perfect fellowship with Christ (see Rev. 21:3,7). We will be worshipping Him (Rev. 7:15; 22:3) and be before His face (Matt. 5:8; 1 Cor. 13:12, etc.) [Spencer 2005, pp. 438-441].

Dr. Morey (2006) provides these verses as “the primary NT texts that refute soul sleep”: Matt. 22:23-33; Lk. 16:19-31; Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-25; Heb. 12:18-24.

You claim:

I don't think "sleep" is ever used for the dead unbeliever.

One Google search found this to be a false statement. Daniel 12:2 (NET) states: 'Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake -- some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence'.

There are a number of other Scriptures that refute this statement but I'm not going to continue to interact with one who 'shoots from the hip', making false statements, without doing his research.

I hope that one day you'll do your research before using the keyboard.

Bye,
Oz

Works consulted

Spencer, S. R. 2005, “Last Things, Doctrine of”, in Kevin J. Vanhoozer (gen. ed.) 2005, Dictionary for Theological Interpretation of the Bible, SPCK, London/Baker Academic, pp. 438-441.

 

[Ac28]

Nothing you said is Biblical, and thatmakes everything you said wrong.

Why didn't you mention the huge error you made concerning your "gathering unto his people" fiasco.

Christ didn't say anyone went to paradise when they die. Surely you don't buy into that. The comma is in the wrong place in Lk 23:43. It should be after Today and not before. There are rules of Greek grammar that demand that, but the best reason is that "I'm telling you today, you'd better be good", is a common idiom that most everyone still uses. My Mother used to say that all the time. There are 38 uses of it in Deuteronomy. According to 2Cor 12, it seems that Paradise is located in the 3rd Heaven. And that's if there are 3 tangible heavens. If that is the 3rd Heaven, time-wise, that means Paradise won't exist until the 3rd heaven exists. Do you seriously believe that Christ died at 3:00 in the afternoon and then went to paradise, just to meet that guy, before sundown, the same day. Why are eliminating the necessity of a resurrection, which, according to the Bible, is done in massive amounts of people? Surely you don't believe that God holds 24,000 individual resurrections everyday, do you, assuming only half of the Christians that die every day are believers? If you do, I have this bridge for sale.

Are you one of those people that still believes in the pagan idea of man having a soul? It certainly isn't Biblical. I can't think of a single instance where the word soul can't be substituted with "life", "person" "human being" instead of meaning an invisible part of you, about the size of your fist, that either goes to Heaven or Hell when you die. What do you do with this verse?
Gen 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I believe in soul sleep. I, a soul, sleep every night.

Do you rightly divide God's Word, as directed in 2Tim 2:15? Why not? Don't you want to be accepted unto God? Don't you want to have no reason to feel ashamed? Why waste your time on things you can do nothing about instead of learning how to rightly divide God's Word. If you do that, and only if you do that, you could have an opportunity of spending eternity in the highest Heavens, If you don't, the chances are you'll go through the White Throne Judgement and end up on earth.

Everything you say is very iffy and full of assumptions. Assumptions are truth's greatest enemy. I'm fighting your doctrine, because I think it is made-up and is dangerous. I sure feel bad for those seniors. We've been lied to about the existence of hell all of our lives and you seem to have embellished those untruths tenfold.

Do you realize that every one that has ever died, is still in the grave, even David, the one whom God loves? Do you realize that Christ is the only person that has ever ascended to Heaven? Do you realize that the only people in the Bible that have any hope of going to Heaven are those in the church found ONLY in Paul's 7 books written after Acts was finished? Those are the important things.

I know of an excellent Bible group in Australia that could put you back on the right track and teach you some important things you could use.

Who is your apostle?

 

[OzSpen]

Nothing you said is Biblical, but everything you said was wrong.

This is our assertion, opinion but with little evidence. 'Everything you said was wrong' requires more study by you to arrive at a hyperbole, 'Everything you said ...'

I know of an excellent Bible group in Australia that could put you back on the right track and teach you some important things you could use.

Who is your apostle?

I know of excellent, evangelical Bible study groups in Australia that teach sound doctrine from Scripture. I lead one of them.

As for 'who is your apostle?' that's foisting your beliefs on me.

I'm going to get a life away from CyB's Ac28 and his doctrine.

Gone fishing with my brother-in-law at Burrum Heads, Qld!


Oz

 

[Philip James]

Do you realize that every one that has ever died, is still in the grave, even David, the one whom God loves

He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.

 

[brakelite]

Genesis forms the skeleton for the rest of scripture. Any doctrine or Biblical interpretation that is contrary to Genesis, must be error. As Ac28 said above, Genesis does not tell us that we have a soul that is immortal. nor does it tell us that we have a soul that is mortal, but on the contrary, It informs us quite candidly that we are souls, and that we die. The very description as to how we were created details clearly that the body was formed of the dust of the ground, God breathed into this body the breath of life, and we became living souls. That living soul, after the fall, became subject to death. Not a part of the human...it wasn't a separate entity that died, and another that continued to live when Adam died. No, it was the whole person. The whole person sinned, therefore the whole person became subject to death. Sadly, far too many have bought into Satan' lie that "ye shall not surely die", claiming 'spiritual death' means the spirit doesn't "truly die", but continues to live. It was the whole of Adam that died. The body returned to dust, the breath of life...that infusion of vital power and animation that gave the body life returned to God, and the living soul ceased to be. There is not one shred of evidence that the spirit that returned to God contained any personality, emotion, consciousness or state of reason or awareness that belonged to its former host. If there were, then one could posit the idea that that personality was there when it came from God...which is supported in Mormonism. Do we want to go there?
We are very very mortal, and any immortality to be gained by anyone comes not at death, but at the second coming. This is what the hope of the Christian NT church was based on. Not any hope that they would immediately entire glory, but hope in the resurrection. Their hope was founded upon the knowledge that they were mortal beings subject to death...no part of them was immortal...their only hope was in the gift of immortality which comes with Christ's return. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die".