Another Premillennial absurdity
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Yes. The New heaven and new earth consist of the new covenant. The Old Covenant was the old heaven and earth the Nation of Israel once had known before Christ, and his victory.
Everything changed from Material application to Spiritual application and Christ fulfilled everything, and had victory over all things, sin, death, hell, Satan and his angels. That doesn't mean that darkness has went away, or the wrestling of such things the world gives which is like "Spirit of manipulation, Spirit of Hatred, Spirit of whatever you can put here" which is similar in the likeness of "School Spirit", in how look at the principalities we wrestle with.
When did/does the old covenant end?
When did/does the new covenant begin?
When did/does "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did/does "this age" arrive?
When did/does "this age" end?
When did/does the new heavens and new earth arrive?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When did/does "the age to come" arrive?
Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
Is the judgment of all a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?
To your first question, according to my current understanding, yes, because how else will the saints rule over the righteous among the nations?
To your second question, again according to my current understanding, no. It reads to me like a very greatly improved time, but not yet complete perfection. I mean, at first glance, no more war sounds like perfection but the fact that there will be ANY disputes/disputing, which it says Jesus will settle, is not yet perfection. And that there will still be ANY death at all, even very little, is not yet perfection.
I guess we will be able to see just how much control over stirring up the flesh of righteous men satan actually had when he’s locked up and can’t tinker with it. He won’t be able to push our buttons that way while locked up.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Ok. You seem to be presenting what you have been taught. Not what Revelation 20 teaches.
Where does Revelation 20 teach the Jesus will be on earth?
Where does Revelation 20 teach that there will be no more war?
Where does Revelation 20 teach a "very greatly improved time"?
How can there be widespread deaths and there not be countless mortals on your millennial earth?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I was just clarifying my own belief in light of the subject being discussed. The Amill talking point about the dissolution of the elements makes it sound like annihilation, whether or not you think that constitutes annihilation. I do recall that you don't believe the earth will be completely dissolved. You do, however, believe, that the judgment at the 2nd Coming will be so comprehensive that no mortal human being will survive, as I understand it.
You interpret my writing as you do Scripture and history; you base much of your rationale on silence. Sad! Most people rightly engage on what is said, not what they think is said. That is why Amils struggle engaging with you.
Umm…the widespread deaths come after satan is released again after the thousand years. The thousand years are not perfection, they are a great improvement.
I think it starts with few men but the population grows in a thousand years, and the time of tribulation is said to be cut short or no living would be left (to even begin a thousand years) and I’m trying to figure out why it is that you think humans won’t be on the earth during the thousand years. You’re asking me, how can there not be countless humans but I think there will be a lot of humans, so…I can’t answer the question of how there there cannot be a lot of humans because I think there will be.
If the population of the world increased by over 5 billion in seventy years, (and it did) then imagine the exponential growth of that 5 billion over the other 930 years that remain of the thousand years. Doing it quickly in my head, it would be…over 50 billion? I mean, the exponential growth would not be immediate but at some point of the thousand years it would be Exponential.
So I can see there is something in your head about it being impossible for humans to be on earth during the thousand years but I can’t see into your head so I don’t know the steps you took to get to that.
I also don’t understand why you think the Thousand years and what it will be like can ONLY be gleaned from Rev 20 and no other prophecy/scripture anywhere describes it…
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
If some will be ruling and reigning with Christ, that would necessitate that there be someone to rule over and it never says some Of the holy will rule over some of the holy, it says the holy will rule over the righteous, and the “with Christ” part would seem to necessitate that Christ would be here too…
No. Just highlighting a bad habit you have. You do not ascertain, you assume.
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Sure, you can set yourself up and idol and worship it.
You can be mean and demean other people.
You can kill them.
Sin has been taken care of though by Christ and he is the only answer to a new life, which doesn't deal with the flesh anymore.
Then show me clear millennial passages that teach this. Premils foist so much unrelated OT Scripture upon Revelation 20, because they can make the less vivid OT passages say whatever they want. They have nothing in the NT.
From my view of the Bible Jesus never lied about coming back to the generation.
Some take that as a future one, you have to decide for yourself as my faith perspective has Jesus Christ having the victory in 70AD.
You'll have to seek it out for yourself, like I had to, but had help from a teacher who taught me a lot and helped me realize that Jesus, and the Apostles couldn't have lied about His coming back to those people other wise the bible itself is a farce, so is Jesus, and the apostles.
Helpful book? Do not know but will share, as the man bases it all on scriptures, just like many people do.
All the best,
Matthew
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
All Christians (followers of Christ) can still sin or we wouldn't have 1 John 3:4.
If sin was no longer a concern for the devout Christian, we would not have many warnings against it, even throughout the New Testament.
Simple! Because this is all your own opinions, or what you have been taught. It runs against the clear second coming passages.
Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?
You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.
It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.
The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.
There is an awful reward for the Christ-rejecter – this will come on that final last day when all will stand before the throne of God and receive their judgment. There, the living and the dead will receive their just reward. Whilst the persecutors and mockers are being destroyed and sent to hell, believers will be ushered into eternal “rest.” The tribulation that they have concentrated upon the righteous will be turned on the perpetrators. The Holy Spirit tells us that Christ appears at His Coming “in flaming fire” with the intention of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 16:15-21: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”
This is the end of the age and the end of the world! When Christ returns He destroys all the wicked. You reward the wicked by letting them inherit the new earth, Scripture forbids that. Because Premil has nothing to corroborate its belief in the Scriptures, it has to pitch its tent in the OT and take Scripture that pertains to the old covenant or new covenant and dump it in some alleged future millennium.
I do not do links or outside books. It shows a sign that someone is stumped. If you do not know what you leave or are unable to biblically justify your teaching you are better keeping it to yourself.
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