Are we divine ???

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amadeus

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Amadeus: Splitting hairs here. I agree with you in general, although I would say even if we ask from the right source at the right moment, God will still restrict the power to us and in attribute (meaning for what purpose) ....God is the source and even when Christ was on earth his Father was still restrictive although generous with what power he gave him - his authority. Since his resurrection, Christ was given all authority on earth and in heaven...means pretty well all power..?

Bless you,

APAK
Well something I may have omitted in my post was the purpose. We cannot receive such power for the wrong purpose. This is the asking "amiss" of which James wrote. What I am saying that as far as God's part it is possible for us to attain, but on our part we will always fall short in a measure and therefore never fully attain. It seems likely that Jesus knew his fate as a man when he began his active ministry at age 30. At the prime of physical life, he knew that he was heading painful torture and death. What man of us could know that and move forward always in God's will for those 3½ years? Jesus did it. Could you or I do the same with the same foreknowledge? I'll say not say no, but we would need a lot of help, wouldn't we? Our actual course may not be so rough, or at least if it is to be so far we don't as of yet have foreknowledge of it. At least, I don't.

What did Jesus mean when He said...?
"... all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23

What limit did He put on "all"?
 
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Wormwood

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Amadeus: Splitting hairs here. I agree with you in general, although I would say even if we ask from the right source at the right moment, God will still restrict the power to us and in attribute (meaning for what purpose) ....God is the source and even when Christ was on earth his Father was still restrictive although generous with what power he gave him - his authority. Since his resurrection, Christ was given all authority on earth and in heaven...means pretty well all power..?

Bless you,

APAK

APAK,

This post is troublesome to me. We are not divine, nor will we be made divine. This thinking sounds like Mormonism that argues that God wants what is best for us and what can be better than being made gods? There is one triune God. We are "clothed" with Christ and are partakers of his nature by virtue of our connection to Christ. However, do not confuse texts that refer to our status in Christ and righteousness in Christ as concepts to imply we will be made gods. That is not what these texts mean. I think you are going beyond the author's intended meaning in the texts you cite. For instance, Jesus saying we will be "like angels" had to do with marriage, sexual reproduction and resurrection bodies. It had nothing to do with no longer being human or us becoming divine. Certainly we will be transformed in ways beyond our understanding through the vast riches and mercy of God in Christ. Yet to claim divine status is a great mistake in my estimation. There will always be one, triune God consisting of Father, Son and Spirit. We will not become deity.
 
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APAK

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APAK,

This post is troublesome to me. We are not divine, nor will we be made divine. This thinking sounds like Mormonism that argues that God wants what is best for us and what can be better than being made gods? There is one triune God. We are "clothed" with Christ and are partakers of his nature by virtue of our connection to Christ. However, do not confuse texts that refer to our status in Christ and righteousness in Christ as concepts to imply we will be made gods. That is not what these texts mean. I think you are going beyond the author's intended meaning in the texts you cite. For instance, Jesus saying we will be "like angels" had to do with marriage, sexual reproduction and resurrection bodies. It had nothing to do with no longer being human or us becoming divine. Certainly we will be transformed in ways beyond our understanding through the vast riches and mercy of God in Christ. Yet to claim divine status is a great mistake in my estimation. There will always be one, triune God consisting of Father, Son and Spirit. We will not become deity.

Wormwood:
I think you are presuming too much here. I never said nor hinted that we 'become deity.' as God himself. That is totally contrary to my thinking. In the structure and context I wrote we do have a divine nature. Words do have specific meanings and a paragraph explaining just one word like 'divine' is usually not sufficient.

Also I do not believe I said we would be "angels" I did say we would be like Christ in that he would be like an angel. If I did not say this or carried this meaning then it was incorrect.

I do not want to spend time defending a principle or meaning when it suddenly offended someone. I'm sorry you feel this way. And I'm not of any established 'church.' if you 'need' to know this.

Yes this subject is very 'touchy' with many folks and it easily get an unjustified and exaggerated opposing view.

Bless you,


APAK
 
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Dcopymope

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Wormwood:
I think you are presuming too much here. I never said nor hinted that we 'become deity.' as God himself. That is totally contrary to my thinking. In the structure and context I wrote we do have a divine nature. Words do have specific meanings and a paragraph explaining just one word like 'divine' is usually not sufficient.

Also I do not believe I said we would be "angels" I did say we would be like Christ in that he would be like an angel. If I did not say this or carried this meaning then it was incorrect.

I do not want to spend time defending a principle or meaning when it suddenly offended someone. I'm sorry you feel this way. And I'm not of any established 'church.' if you 'need' to know this.

Yes this subject is very 'touchy' with many folks and it easily get an unjustified and exaggerated opposing view.

Bless you,


APAK

I don't understand whats so touchy about this subject. Maybe they need to grow a pair and cure themselves of their snow flakeism. No, we won't be angels, but the bodies we receive will be similar, only in that the curse of death will no longer apply. If people want to believe that somehow makes them "divine", then I think they need to use a different word to describe whatever they are trying to say. The only 'divine' being that exists and ever will exist in the future is God.
 
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ScottA

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ScottA:

I agree with the statement when you said …”that men cannot be considered divine until we are born again of the spirit of God.”

And I agree completely .....”our divinity is not outward, and therefore only inward, only spirit,” if you add something like…. until we are in a glorified state, in the image and divinity of Jesus – both outwardly and inwardly.

Bless you,

APAK
If there were any case for what is outward, Christ would have committed His flesh to the Father also. But, no, He only committed His spirit.
 

Dcopymope

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If there were any case for what is outward, Christ would have committed His flesh to the Father also. But, no, He only committed His spirit.

default_hmm.gif
What about his blood? Did he commit his blood as well, since that's also the thing that "cleanses" us from sin and is stated to be the life of the flesh itself? Did he have to say "I commend my blood" for it to actually be the case?
 
B

brakelite

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Just ruminating here...perhaps someone else may want to develop this further.

2 Peter 1:3-4

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue....so His divine power has provided us with all things that pertain to life and godliness (no excuse for sin there) and this godliness comes to us through our knowledge of Him. What is this divine power? It is creative power. It is that power which makes us new creatures in Christ. It is the power which raised Christ from the dead...the same power that raises us from self-replicating moral viruses into the righteousness of Christ...
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.....what is Paul suggesting here? In Romans he says sin shall no longer have dominion over us, and above we see that the same power that gave Jesus dominion over all things, is the same power that works in us, that we, through partaking of the divine nature and believing the promises of God, may have dominion over sin! Sadly, many people do not believe this possible. EWe hear constantly that whilst in this flesh, we will continue to sin until Jesus comes...maybe even beyond that!! How can anyone overcome if their faith cannot grasp the wonderful promises that garuantee victory?

.....

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....however, our partaking of that divine nature (which separates us from the world) comes by way of promises, therefore nothing is automatic...promises are received by faith. Now where else may we see a similar promise?

Romans 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren....God has predetermined that those who come to Him in faith, grasping the promises, will be conformed into the image of His Son!!! This folks is not about appearance. This is about character. The divine nature Paul is referring to is not omnisience or omnipresence or any other omni...it's about righteousness.

Let me take you somewhere else for a moment...in Revelation another promise is that the Father's name will be written in our foreheads. Now don't think for a moment that we are all going to be literally tattooed on our brows with YAHWEH or any of His numerous other names or titles, no. I love Exodus 33 and 34, where Moses was talking with God and pleaded with God that He would go with them. Then Moses had the audacity...faith and confidence...to ask God ....

Exodus 33:18-23

8 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exodus 34:5-8

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.


8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

I truly hope you can make the connections here. We are promised the divine nature...His character...His righteousness. God's glory is His character. His character is found in His name.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Now let's go back to that promise in Revelation concerning the Father's name in our foreheads. Elsewhere is the promise of the seal of God in the forehead. A seal in human terms is bound up in law...it is a guarantee that a law has been approved/ratified by the reigning monarch/president/minister. The laws of God are transcripts of His character. We are informed elsewhere that God shall write His laws on our minds and in our hearts. Where is the mind? Is it not in our forehead? Are we not sealed by the Spirit in our foreheads? Is not the name of the Father written in our forehead? Are we not promised that we may be partakers of the divine nature...the righteousness of Christ? Is not our character first established in the mind?
I strongly suggest that the divinity we are promised is bound up in the laws of God and the character of God. This character of the divine, is promised and available today. It means dominion over sin which is transgression against the law. It means that by faith and the sure knowledge of the one who has promised, we may overcome, in this life!!!
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.....
....
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.











 
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APAK

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I don't understand whats so touchy about this subject. Maybe they need to grow a pair and cure themselves of their snow flakeism. No, we won't be angels, but the bodies we receive will be similar, only in that the curse of death will no longer apply. If people want to believe that somehow makes them "divine", then I think they need to use a different word to describe whatever they are trying to say. The only 'divine' being that exists and ever will exist in the future is God.
Dcopymope:

I do appreciate your inputs. They are right on, in my books anyway....I've learned more about you here.

Thanks a bunch.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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APAK

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Just ruminating here...perhaps someone else may want to develop this further.

2 Peter 1:3-4

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue....so His divine power has provided us with all things that pertain to life and godliness (no excuse for sin there) and this godliness comes to us through our knowledge of Him. What is this divine power? It is creative power. It is that power which makes us new creatures in Christ. It is the power which raised Christ from the dead...the same power that raises us from self-replicating moral viruses into the righteousness of Christ...
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.....what is Paul suggesting here? In Romans he says sin shall no longer have dominion over us, and above we see that the same power that gave Jesus dominion over all things, is the same power that works in us, that we, through partaking of the divine nature and believing the promises of God, may have dominion over sin! Sadly, many people do not believe this possible. EWe hear constantly that whilst in this flesh, we will continue to sin until Jesus comes...maybe even beyond that!! How can anyone overcome if their faith cannot grasp the wonderful promises that garuantee victory?

.....

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....however, our partaking of that divine nature (which separates us from the world) comes by way of promises, therefore nothing is automatic...promises are received by faith. Now where else may we see a similar promise?

Romans 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren....God has predetermined that those who come to Him in faith, grasping the promises, will be conformed into the image of His Son!!! This folks is not about appearance. This is about character. The divine nature Paul is referring to is not omnisience or omnipresence or any other omni...it's about righteousness.

Let me take you somewhere else for a moment...in Revelation another promise is that the Father's name will be written in our foreheads. Now don't think for a moment that we are all going to be literally tattooed on our brows with YAHWEH or any of His numerous other names or titles, no. I love Exodus 33 and 34, where Moses was talking with God and pleaded with God that He would go with them. Then Moses had the audacity...faith and confidence...to ask God ....

Exodus 33:18-23

8 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exodus 34:5-8

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.


8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

I truly hope you can make the connections here. We are promised the divine nature...His character...His righteousness. God's glory is His character. His character is found in His name.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Now let's go back to that promise in Revelation concerning the Father's name in our foreheads. Elsewhere is the promise of the seal of God in the forehead. A seal in human terms is bound up in law...it is a guarantee that a law has been approved/ratified by the reigning monarch/president/minister. The laws of God are transcripts of His character. We are informed elsewhere that God shall write His laws on our minds and in our hearts. Where is the mind? Is it not in our forehead? Are we not sealed by the Spirit in our foreheads? Is not the name of the Father written in our forehead? Are we not promised that we may be partakers of the divine nature...the righteousness of Christ? Is not our character first established in the mind?
I strongly suggest that the divinity we are promised is bound up in the laws of God and the character of God. This character of the divine, is promised and available today. It means dominion over sin which is transgression against the law. It means that by faith and the sure knowledge of the one who has promised, we may overcome, in this life!!!
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.....
....
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.









brakelite: It's a great ramble, really....type of a 'divine' commentary about divinity of God in action.

In what you said, "....God's glory is His character. His character is found in His name. ...."

To see our Father's glory and power through Jesus Christ's glory and power. He thus showed his glory and loving work by his unchanging, unyielding, unwavering power to love his own 'holy' people at all costs. Jesus is the image of his and our Father; we will 'see' the 'face' of God through our Lord and Saviour. This is our wonderful future, to be with Jesus, is being with God. This is what Moses and others wanted so desperately - to know God and 'see' God, to know the truth.

(Eph 1:17) I always pray to the great and glorious Father, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray that he will give you the Spirit, who will let you know truths about God and help you understand them, so that you will know him better.
(Eph 1:18) I pray that God will open your minds to see his truth. Then you will know the hope that he has chosen us to have. You will know that the blessings God has promised his holy people are rich and glorious.
(Eph 1:19) And you will know that God's power is very great for us who believe. It is the same as the mighty power
(Eph 1:20) he used to raise Christ from death and put him at his right side in the heavenly places.
(Eph 1:21) He put Christ over all rulers, authorities, powers, and kings. He gave him authority over everything that has power in this world or in the next world. (ALL ESV)


I see you have no 'brakes' on this subject. Your 'lite' is out and you can be a danger to other people.;)

Bless you bro,

APAK
 

APAK

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Well something I may have omitted in my post was the purpose. We cannot receive such power for the wrong purpose. This is the asking "amiss" of which James wrote. What I am saying that as far as God's part it is possible for us to attain, but on our part we will always fall short in a measure and therefore never fully attain. It seems likely that Jesus knew his fate as a man when he began his active ministry at age 30. At the prime of physical life, he knew that he was heading painful torture and death. What man of us could know that and move forward always in God's will for those 3½ years? Jesus did it. Could you or I do the same with the same foreknowledge? I'll say not say no, but we would need a lot of help, wouldn't we? Our actual course may not be so rough, or at least if it is to be so far we don't as of yet have foreknowledge of it. At least, I don't.

What did Jesus mean when He said...?
"... all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23

What limit did He put on "all"?

Amadeus:

Mark 9:23..we do tend to become a lot more faithful when we have a real need in our lives. We fervently pray, and pray....
Having sufficient faith I believe is not the issue, especially under these circumstances. Answer to prayer in my belief has always been about what our Father wants first, his will and plan. Yes, there is no limit on 'all' although I believe Jesus meant (without explaining it) with his filter placed on it first. That father had a real need for Christ to heal his son. It was in Christ's interest and the father's son faith that healed him.

In the parable concerning 'moving a mountain' with sufficient faith. Has any believer with firm faith been able to have this mountain moving feat accomplished? Of course not, God will do his purpose first on all things requested. I believe that God does not want to move mountains for us just because we want it done with faith.

Bless you,

APAK
 

bbyrd009

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But we'd rather each have our own denomination with its very own beliefs. Too bad.
imo if one's beliefs keep them from loving their neighbor, it is the beliefs that need changing, not the neighbors!
i'm pretty sure "Correct beliefs will save you" cannot be Quoted?
He didn't mean be of one spirit with the Trinity, like Jesus and God are of one spirit.
hmm dunno, i gotta say it worked with Tuaregs, for me anyway. Depends how you interpret that i guess
 
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GodsGrace

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imo if one's beliefs keep them from loving their neighbor, it is the beliefs that need changing, not the neighbors!
i'm pretty sure "Correct beliefs will save you" cannot be Quoted?
I agree that it's not our doctrine that will save us.
It's our trust in Jesus and the fact that we wish to follow Him to the light.

However, I do see doctrine these days that can easily lead persons astray.
Cheap grace, easy believism, faith only. These are false; they don't require obedience, just belief.

They fail to realize that BELIEF means OBEDIENCE.
Simple. I know of a few that state they could live a life of sin and still be saved.

THIS belief could lead to loss of salvation.
 
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bbyrd009

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My brother believes we should not debate. He won't join the forum even though he's so knowledgeable. He believes it's sinful.
ya, i guess it can be, but then again sparks are a part of iron sharpening iron--which i'm pretty sure is the Bible's way of poking fun at us; i think "Iron Scepter" is too--and your brother could always demonstrate a better way i guess. No doubt he already is, just in a different venue. But an equivalent argument could also be made that he is sinning in not exposing his beliefs to the fire, i guess, if one wanted to.
 

GodsGrace

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ya, i guess it can be, but then again sparks are a part of iron sharpening iron--which i'm pretty sure is the Bible's way of poking fun at us; i think "Iron Scepter" is too--and your brother could always demonstrate a better way i guess. No doubt he already is, just in a different venue. But an equivalent argument could also be made that he is sinning in not exposing his beliefs to the fire, i guess, if one wanted to.
He does a lot of witnessing. Always has.
I also believe iron sharpens iron...
And this helps me to remember things I've learned.
 

VictoryinJesus

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If I bark, does that let me be like a dog?

I don't know, does it?

Isaiah 56:10
[10] His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Psalm 22:16
[16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

The children of disobedience walk and talk like the children of disobedience. They share in the "nature" of disobedience, does that make them antichrist?

I am still stuck on the "longsuffering" of God. In every verse connected to telling us about the Spirit of God, there is long suffering. Does this mean to be divine is to long suffer? Why does it matter? Because we are debating "divine" and possibly God's divinity is not defined the way man defines it. But is rather simply: love. What is the glory of God; is it not the Son? Why is the Son who is peace, love and judgement to the widows and poor...Gods glory and light?

Jesus wept.

John 11:33-40
[33] When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, [34] And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. [35] Jesus wept. [36] Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! [37] And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? [38] Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. [39] Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. [40] Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

This I know to be true. Jesus did not weep because of Lazarus. Jesus had no doubt Lazarus would be raised at His command, in fact Jesus purposely stalled in coming to Lazarus. Jesus wept in suffering the pain of Lazarus love ones. Jesus showed us the Father. The Old Testament is no different. God long-suffered so that the entirety of the Word would be fulfilled. Same God. Long-suffering our lack of understanding and attack of His character through little faith in Him. It all lines up with what God is willing to suffer for relationship of man and God to be restored. The God of the Old Testament was displayed in Christ. Did God long-suffer the rejection of His most beautiful creature(Satan). God long-suffers man's ignorance. To be divine is to see from the throne of God and Gods purpose. Is that not enough? To know His thoughts and His ways and His love? To have His Heart (Mind)?

I am sorry for rambling...but are we talking of divine as in glowing and walking through walls and being over all in power? Or divine as in: knowing God. How more "divine" can you be?

1 Corinthians 13:12
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I've watched over the past year as God has taken one of the strongest men that I know to weakness. I'm accustomed to being weak but it is a miracle: This strong man shares in my weakness. He asked me: what is this all for? Why suffer? Why put us through it? It became very clear that God truly deserves our suffering.

It a good place. To be weak. His goodness and love is divine.
 
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bbyrd009

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He does a lot of witnessing. Always has.
yes well then i'm sure he is not interested in having his model challenged, right, admitting some new truth would be tantamount to admitting that he was "witnessing" something amiss? Imo your brother maybe does not know who his enemies are, i mean who does one "witness" to, after all? Strangers? Acquaintances? Friends? Family? I wonder if anyone even knows

most proselytizing amounts to Codependent TMI, imo, delivered from a perspective of Spiritual Superiority,
and does not resemble "witnessing" in the least

not that i mean this to be applied to your bro necessarily, but a new believer "witnessing" also does not compute, for at least 3 years imo