Are you predestined or did you make a choice?
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Well, I would suggest to you that your heart was changed and you actually had faith ~ which is the gift of God ~ when you were confronted with that reality. Otherwise, you would not have regarded it as reality and therefore disregarded it.
Um, I did... :) Again:
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:14-18)
Yes, but by extension, all of us, too.
Well, yes, the 144,000 of the first half of Revelation 7 is representative/symbolic of the innumerable multitude of the latter part of Revelation 7. If you are a believer, you are a member of that group, God's elect. But that's a different conversation than the one being had here.
Any more thoughts on the matter?[/QUOTE]
Oh Pinseeker I missed that in your post.
Thank you for sharing your own thoughts on the matter.
(To the open of all I speak below)
I do not have anything to really say other than that I believe those (12 tribes of the Nation of Israel Gods chosen select people - 144,000 went through sufferings unimaginable compared to how Christians live today. (As I believe they have done gone due to the context of revelation being that of those people in that day in age, not 2000 years later)
To me those who are of faith become heirs of God and we live in this world suffering to Do Gods will and not our own will, by learning obedience in the things as Christ suffered obeying Jesus Christ in what he said and did when we abide in Him by looking to Jesus to love God and to love neighbor as self.
Which naturally we love ourselves, suffering to believe and love is what obeying and abiding in the things of Christ which is painful… not easy.
Very thankful that God loves unconditionally all people, everyone has a choice… to believe and seek out the things of God or not.
Your choice is up to you, and God loves you, I believe it is good and beneficial to learn and grow in Christ and grow spiritually while living here before you die and leave this world.
Thank you for sharing your own thoughts on the matter.
(To the open of all I speak below)
I do not have anything to really say other than that I believe those (12 tribes of the Nation of Israel Gods chosen select people - 144,000 went through sufferings unimaginable compared to how Christians live today. (As I believe they have done gone due to the context of revelation being that of those people in that day in age, not 2000 years later)
To me those who are of faith become heirs of God and we live in this world suffering to Do Gods will and not our own will, by learning obedience in the things as Christ suffered obeying Jesus Christ in what he said and did when we abide in Him by looking to Jesus to love God and to love neighbor as self.
Which naturally we love ourselves, suffering to believe and love is what obeying and abiding in the things of Christ which is painful… not easy.
Very thankful that God loves unconditionally all people, everyone has a choice… to believe and seek out the things of God or not.
Your choice is up to you, and God loves you, I believe it is good and beneficial to learn and grow in Christ and grow spiritually while living here before you die and leave this world.
Also realize this in the debate forum however I will share with you my thoughts on matters and they should be just considered as information shared.
I have no reason to debate anyone on here as the thread is a curious question on how they believe or they what they see subjectively with the use of scripture.
:)
I have no reason to debate anyone on here as the thread is a curious question on how they believe or they what they see subjectively with the use of scripture.
:)
James Macbeth
Member
The ones who will be with Jesus are called, chosen and faithful. First comes the calling and choosing, which are of God, our faithfulness is the fruit of that, and our good fruits are fruits of the Holy Spirit working in us. Can not have any faith in Christ unless you are called and chosen, Christ is not of this world and neither is our faith, and it is also not a work of our flesh.
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
God also chose Abraham and called Abraham to come into the promised land. Abraham is the father of us all. So then a type. Our faith is according to God's grace for us to make the promise of God guaranteed towards us whom He redeems from the world.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Revelation 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
God also chose Abraham and called Abraham to come into the promised land. Abraham is the father of us all. So then a type. Our faith is according to God's grace for us to make the promise of God guaranteed towards us whom He redeems from the world.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I don't understand really the big debate over whether God predestined some to be saved and some lost. To be honest, I think it's irrelevant. All that matters is Christ and Him crucified. The only motivation for that singular act of love, is love. All pervading never dying over the top unlimited love.
Everything we do is a direct result of what we are. Changing what we do does not make us better people, or saved. All we can do is modify some things, and hide others, but we stay essentially the same. Sinners.
The question I would have is, are we sinners by nature...or are we sinners because we do certain stuff? Because in reality our only hope is a change in our nature. Our only hope of ever seeing the Kingdom of God is to take on a new nature. And that change in our nature can only come about through death. Death to the self righteousness and the pride and the ego which says, "I am not so bad, there are lots of people worse than me." No, while there are sinners who do things different to you, we are all the same in that we are all born with the same sinful corrupt selfish nature inherited from Adam. And that nature, whoever we are and whatever we may have done or are doing, must die. It is the new nature that then defines the improvement in character which results in behavior reflecting God's moral standard.
And that is where Jesus, the Son of God comes in and says, "Hey guys, guess what. I have died the eternal second death in your place. Yes! That is right! I took your place that you may live a new life with Me living My life through you. " As we place our lives in His care, fully trusting Him to break the power of sin over our lives, and continually abiding in Him, and walking with Him, we can be partakers of the divine nature, whereby the addictions, the habits, the inclinations that formerly ruled our lives and caused us to be slaves to sin, can now be forever broken, and we can be born again, becoming new creations in Christ. Then day by day as we continue to trust Him, we are changed. Irrevocably, drastically and often radically changed in temperament, practice, motivation, and thought.
The old spiritual man still needs to buried as it's already dead, but the new born-again man has hope, joy, peace, and an expectation of eternal life. Jesus, the Son of the Almighty Father, offers this to you today. Right now. And all it costs you is your old life that is destined for death anyway, in exchange for a new life destined for resurrection and glory. Not a bad deal really.
Everything we do is a direct result of what we are. Changing what we do does not make us better people, or saved. All we can do is modify some things, and hide others, but we stay essentially the same. Sinners.
The question I would have is, are we sinners by nature...or are we sinners because we do certain stuff? Because in reality our only hope is a change in our nature. Our only hope of ever seeing the Kingdom of God is to take on a new nature. And that change in our nature can only come about through death. Death to the self righteousness and the pride and the ego which says, "I am not so bad, there are lots of people worse than me." No, while there are sinners who do things different to you, we are all the same in that we are all born with the same sinful corrupt selfish nature inherited from Adam. And that nature, whoever we are and whatever we may have done or are doing, must die. It is the new nature that then defines the improvement in character which results in behavior reflecting God's moral standard.
And that is where Jesus, the Son of God comes in and says, "Hey guys, guess what. I have died the eternal second death in your place. Yes! That is right! I took your place that you may live a new life with Me living My life through you. " As we place our lives in His care, fully trusting Him to break the power of sin over our lives, and continually abiding in Him, and walking with Him, we can be partakers of the divine nature, whereby the addictions, the habits, the inclinations that formerly ruled our lives and caused us to be slaves to sin, can now be forever broken, and we can be born again, becoming new creations in Christ. Then day by day as we continue to trust Him, we are changed. Irrevocably, drastically and often radically changed in temperament, practice, motivation, and thought.
The old spiritual man still needs to buried as it's already dead, but the new born-again man has hope, joy, peace, and an expectation of eternal life. Jesus, the Son of the Almighty Father, offers this to you today. Right now. And all it costs you is your old life that is destined for death anyway, in exchange for a new life destined for resurrection and glory. Not a bad deal really.
Thank you for sharing, Scott.
To all,
Just looking for responses to the question posted in post number 1. If you would like to leave a comment and share please feel free to do so.
Thank you to each and every member who has decided to comment so far, and sharing your thoughts and perspectives with others to see too.
May God bless all of you richly in Christ.
That is really not taught in the Bible. Quite the opposite.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor 5:17)
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Rom. 9:21
Let us think about what a devine plan for the world involves. God makes a perfect plan and for a perfect plan to work, he needs all the people on earth and events to act in accordance to His will. He needs precision, things to happen step by step. His events and people who enact them are so finely tunes and orchestrated. He knows the future. He knows who lives in the future. As a matter of fact He has written all their names in the Book of Life. He also has given us prophecies that we have seen fulfilled with hair spitting accuracy and describes those who are in these prophesies. No one can change His plan, derail it. Satan cannot nor man. If one person died before his scheduled time to perform some particular function, that would off-set His plan and He would have to find someone else. We can understand this happening to man, but not God. His plan is perfect. This is what sovereignty means, He is in control.
A Pastor told me a long time ago, " God chose you first". He enabled us too, He opened our eyes because we were blind.
We can't remove spiritual blindness by ourselves just as we can't remove sin!
Once we started to see, we were convinced, persuaded. Our divine appointment took some planning. He orchestrated people to come into our lives and events to happen, the Word was heard and read and gradually He convinced us and then we chose Him. Funny, man wants to take the credit but the truth be told, man can do nothing good without God.
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30
>>God causes all things to work together ... that is a perfect plan
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." John 15:16
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44
>> This drawing power is the Word, Who is the exact expression of God. There is both an inner calling and outer calling. His sheep hear his call - because He knew them, chose them and enabled them to come.
"The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Proverbs 16:4
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began," 2 Timothy 1:9
"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you." 1 Peter 1:20
" even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
Ephesians 1:4-5
"according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:"
1 Peter 1:2
"For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory."
Ephesians 1:11-12
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."
Revelation 13:8
"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,"
Galatians 1:15
" this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." Acts 2:23
"Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies." Romans 8:33
Hello Ronald,
Thank you for sharing your insights, and comments.
Today decided to kill some time by reading some of John chapter 6, and also took time to read some of Luke about the Death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
I found this verse that you reminded me about what the Pastor had said to you.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” - John 6
The way I can understand this verse is because of the people experiencing the Grace of the Lord Jesus and what he has done for all people paying the price of our sins on the cross. The enabling would be because of yearning to have a relationship to have God in ones life by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
God can also allow people to go their own way even walking away from the cross, because of the freedom of choice human beings have.
Yahweh being the good God that is his, because of the death of his son Yeshua, the sin of all people was done away with, and now all people are allow to have choice like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. To eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or the tree of life - as Jesus is the bread of life, and the everlasting waters for us whom look to him, in which he is able to feed us spiritually and we grow in learning to trust in what he has said in the Gospel.
God is the one who makes us willing to come to Christ, cause He enables, grants some to come to Christ, the willing ones have God's word in their heart to know the truth and believe, only they really do receive Him as the Lord.
John 5 also gives this information to us to know about why some do believe.
31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Even the miraculous works Jesus performed were not enough evidence to cause belief to grow in their hearts, actually the same with ancient Israel wandering in the desert, they also did not believe God's promises, and because of that, God was displeased with them and they were destroyed.
IF you have the abiding Word of God inside of you, when Jesus appears in your life, you will believe in Him. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.
John 6, 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
And because of that work of God placing His words in your heart, you believe in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”
I asked my spiritual Father this question when I was a relatively new believer. He said that he did not know for sure but he put it this way as a possibility. "Imagine you were standing in front of the gates of heaven and there is a sign at the entrance that says "Welcome all who choose to believe in me by faith. " When you walk through those gates, on the other side there is another sign that says "predestined since the foundation of the world.' That was enough to satisfy me :)
Thank you for taking time to share what was on your heart, Angelina.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Unlike Calvinists believe, in Irresistble Grace, I beleve that God draws all men to Himself but many resist. The ones that do come were chosen to begin with. They are His sheep and so to be fair, He draws all, but many do not answer the call.
No, He died for the sins of thw world, but if you do not believe that, you will die in your sins.
Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and that knowledge was passed down to all mankind. We all know good and evil, that was His purpose, it was the only way! He put the tree in the garden knowing they would eat it AND HE allowed Satan in there to tempt them. Not what I would call a perfect environment with Satan. We could not appreciate or know good unless we experience and know evil.
We couldn't know mercy, love, forgiveness, hope, faith, healing, all the attributes of God unless we experience life without them. And Christians have eaten the Bread of Life. He is the Vine,
the Life. And so we are eternally saved.
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Thank you for taking time to share from your perspective, Ronald. Most of all of us agree on Jesus and his death, burial, and resurrection.
If we have that down and believe in faith that is a good thing, because the resurrection is part of the Gospel message that brings forth newness of life through and in Christ.
Praise be to God, and sing psalms to him, in thankfulness.
God bless all and thank you each for taking time to post your testimony, experience, thought, perspective!
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I think we make choices. On the other hand, does the Lord have the ability to bring us all around?
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