Believers need to understand the Truth

[amadeus]

True.
The New Covenant is an unconditional Covenant....
Everyone can belong to it...you have to do nothing to join it.
No Circumcision.
No following 613 laws.
No dietary requirements.

BUT you do have to be IN IT.
And God demands obedience at all times.

The Mosaic covenant was bi-lateral and didn't work.
If those reading along could understand why and the difference between that and the New Covenant, we wouldn't have to have this discussion all the time.

They should find out the difference for themselves.....

All of that and also... God never changes. What He ultimately wants and requires of man has also never changed. He has never just done all of the work for men but rather has always provided the means for men to get it done. No sitting back and waiting for the promise. No sitting back with hands folded saying, I already have the whole loaf, the whole promise of God.

 

[aspen]

Obedience is not required for salvation.

Faith is the only requirement.

Faith and real salvation will produce obedience.

Therefore, if someone is disobedient to the Lord, we can safely say that they are not saved.

But it is not obedience that saves; it is the faith that produces obedience that truly saves.

Faith in what? Seems to me the only answer is God’s love
If faith has no object or the wrong object, it is meaningless

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith in what?

Faith in the gospel message, given to us in a nutshell in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Also in the Person of Jesus Christ Himself, John 6:47.

As well as the Father who sent Him, John 5:24.

 

[aspen]

Faith in the gospel message, given to us in a nutshell in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Also in the Person of Jesus Christ Himself, John 6:47.

As well as the Father who sent Him, John 5:24.

What is the gospel message?

 

[Enoch111]

What is the gospel message?

Why don't you tell us. What is this Good News from God?

 

[atpollard]

Just got here A.
What do you need to be reconciled?
That we're to obey God?

Reconciled to what?

If you really want in this conversation, here is the exchange so you can read it for yourself:

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Believers need to understand the Truth

Post 14
Believers need to understand the Truth

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Believers need to understand the Truth

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Believers need to understand the Truth

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Believers need to understand the Truth

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Believers need to understand the Truth

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Believers need to understand the Truth

 

[aspen]

Why don't you tell us. What is this Good News from God?

The Good news is that Jesus loved us so much He was willing to lay down His life for us

The key word in that statement is love

 

[justbyfaith]

That we are forgiven of our sins when we believe in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

 

[atpollard]

Mess with the bull, and you get the horns.

Your above verses DO NOT have anything to do with sanctification....

Yes they do, and we will see that as we go through them ...

which is a cooperative effort between man and God.

An interesting OPINION, but without scripture to back it up, it is just an opinion.

We'll go through your verses.

Philippians 1:6
Certainly. God will finish the work He began in us.

That is exactly what I claimed because that is exactly what the verse states.
GOD will finish the work (including progressive Sanctification) that GOD began in us.
The lump of clay does not “assist” the Potter in creating the finished vessel.
I guess Philippians 1:6 does have something to do with Sanctification after all.

If we are IN CHRIST. You do understand the concept of remaining IN CHRIST.
If not, check out John 15:5-6

Rather than jumping to John, why don’t you show me where Philippians 1:6 states that God will only be able to finish what he started IF WE COOPERATED. I didn’t see that limitation on God mentioned in my translation of Philippians.

Philippians 2:13
God is within us helping us TO DO what He wants us to do.
Perhaps because He has sent the Holy Spirit to be our helper?

Yes, which proves the point that I was making that God does not TRY to work in our lives, God DOES work in our lives. The verse even said so ...

• “it is God who is at work in you” ... it is not God and man working as partners
• “both to will” ... God makes us WANT to obey
• “and to work“ ... God gives us the ability to obey
• “for His good pleasure” ... because that is what God wants to happen.

Look at that, another verse that was about Sanctification after all.

John 16:7

Sorry, or you can’t be bothered to quote it, then I can’t be bothered to look it up. So “whatever”.

And, please not the verse just above
Philippians 2:12
Paul tells the Philippinas that since he is away from them they are EVEN MORE to OBEY GOD, doing good deeds that He would want them to do and shrinking back from what may displease Him.

No argument from me, but what part of that reverses the meaning of Philippians 2:13 to suddenly mean that God is powerless without our help and permission or that we are now partners with god instead of a lump of clay in the hands of a Potter.

John 3:18

He who doesn't believe is lost.
Nothing to do with sanctification.

If those who believe are not judged, then are they condemned for not working hard enough at their own Sanctification? Does God merely TRY to sanctify people and hope that they will cooperate? No. Through belief, God removed judgement, so we are already sanctified when we are no longer under judgement. God did it without requiring our help.

Ephesians 2:8-9

This speak to INITIAL JUSTIFICATION.
NOT SANCTIFICATION.

So God can SAVE all by himself without needing any help from us, but God can only TRY to maintain that salvation throughout our life by encouraging our efforts and hoping for our cooperation? You go ahead and believe that if you want. I will stand by the God that needed no help to Justify also needs no help to sanctify and will indeed FINISH what GOD STARTED!

Romans 8:29-30

God decided from the beginning that those that would come to Him would become like His Son. This is what is predestined...salvation in Christ and that we are to become like Him. And when we come to Him He declares us justified.
Again, this is not speaking about sanctification.

“These” is repeated in each case ending with “and these whom He justified, He also glorified”. So the very same people that God justified (without any help from anyone else) are all going to end up GLORIFIED. It isn’t rocket science that you can’t get from justified to glorified without passing through sanctified along the way. Note that WE are not credited with a cooperative effort ... GOD justified and GOD glorified ... so God finishes what God starts and carries us through the Sanctification in between.

And please see Romans 8:24
We look FORWARD TO GETTING SOMETHING....
We do NOT already have it. Paul tells us that a man that already has something does not need to look forward to getting it.
Paul is speaking about our salvation.....

Again, if you can’t be bothered to write the verse then I can’t be bothered to read it.
However I hope that you find your SALVATION some day, but as for me, I am looking forward to GLORIFICATION.

Now some verses about Sanctification:

2 Thessalonions 2:13
13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I don’t see any limitations on God. I don’t see God TRYING His best and hoping we do the rest. I see “God has chosen” (not WE). I see “by the Spirit” (not by the merit of our actions). I see “faith in the truth” (and we know that faith is of God and the natural man sees only foolishness in it).

2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

(sounds like we could MAKE OURSELVES become vessels of honor)

Quick poll question: How many self-washing pots or bowls do you own?
You might want to go back and reread Romans 9:20-24 for a quick refresher on pots and potters.

Hebrews 2:11
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

“He who sanctifies” is Jesus (not Jesus and us). “Those who are sanctified” describes our role perfectly ... we are the objects that are acted upon. God does not TRY, God only DOES (as I have stated all along).

Hebrews 10:14
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Sanctified means being set apart to do the work of God.

Yup, and God did it once and permanently. One offering perfected the sanctified. God does not TRY, God simply DOES (All by Himself).

 

[aspen]

That we are forgiven of our sins when we believe in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

Forgiveness is love. Love is completed sin. Sin is is incomplete or misused love.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're crazy. Obviously, things like "abide in Me or be cast into the fire", "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", "if they should fall away (it's impossible to) renew them again unto repentance", "if they become entangled therein again, the latter end of them is worse than the beginning", "thou wicked servant! I forgave you..." etc. etc. etc. are all mistranslations and what not.

All we have to do is "believe" and we can keep on sinning on our way to heaven, even having Satan as our god before God, right?

I'm sorry PM,
Is Zachary saying we could sin all we want to?
That's not what I understood....
Are you serious that those verses you stated are mistranslations?
I can't tell!

 

[GodsGrace]

Mess with the bull, and you get the horns.

Yes they do, and we will see that as we go through them ...

I've already shown you how the verses you posted DO NOT have to do with sanctification. But, yes, I'm willing to go through them again...BECAUSE their meaning WILL NOT change...It is YOU who are changing the meanings to reconcile with your theology.

An interesting OPINION, but without scripture to back it up, it is just an opinion.

I'm going to write only to you. I don't have a lot of time here,,,so I'm going to concentrate on replying to you.

BUT,,,I cannot go back and forth to see what I said to which you are replying.
PLEASE put my statement in your answer so that I can know what you're talking about.

Like for instance, WHAT is only my opinion?
I post verses for almost everything I say and the only reason I don't is because everyone here should know some verses and it takes a lot of time to post them.

So WHAT iS my opinion? That sanctification is a cooperative work between us and God?

You yourself agree that sanctification means being set aside.
FOR WHAT?
We are set aside to do the good deeds that God would want us to do.
Did YOU sit back on your couch and do NOTHING after you were saved?
Or did you try to be a little more friendly and nice to the cashier in the supermarket?

If a neighbor asked a favor of you...did you ask God to come down from heaven and give them a hand,,,or did YOU go over to your neighbor and help them out?

I mean, we need VERSES for this?
There are MANY.

Let's just take this one:


1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

The above is stating that THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, MUST keep his tongue from evil and also be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted and humble in spirit.

Do YOU desire LIFE? Then you must do all of the above, and more.
THIS is cooperating with God,,,when you DO what God wants you to do.

Now show me a verse that states we DO NOT have to do any good deeds.

That is exactly what I claimed because that is exactly what the verse states.
GOD will finish the work (including progressive Sanctification) that GOD began in us.
The lump of clay does not “assist” the Potter in creating the finished vessel.
I guess Philippians 1:6 does have something to do with Sanctification after all.

Yes, I do believe the vessel must cooperate with the potter.

See Jeremiah 18:5-10
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
7“At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

As you can plainly see from verses 8 to10...IF the vessel (the nation) does evil God will act accordingly...the same for verse 10. IF the nation does evil in God's eyes by NOT OBEYING HIS VOICE...He will think better of the good HE HAD PROMISED.

The vessel does indeed cause God to act in a certain way...

Rather than jumping to John, why don’t you show me where Philippians 1:6 states that God will only be able to finish what he started IF WE COOPERATED. I didn’t see that limitation on God mentioned in my translation of Philippians.

I was jumping to John to support my point. Earlier on you scolded me for NOT posting supporting scripture. I don't make up my own rules...they're all in the bible.

The bible is one complete thought A. You cannot separate what God says by picking special little verses that YOU may like...it's ONE THOUGHT..not many little thoughts that God inspired.

Philippians 1:6 states that God will be able to finish what He started IF we ALLOW HIM TO. God does not force anything upon us...we have free will to follow Him or not to follow Him. To ALLOW Him to work in us, or NOT allow Him to work in us.

And how do I know this:
Because Jesus said so in John 15:5-6

John 15:5-6
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

If JESUS says we can do nothing without HIM...
then PAUL must agree with Him.
When Paul says that God will perfect the work began in us in Philippians 1:6....
we must remember what Jesus taught us...that we can do NOTHING without HIM....so yes, God will perfect the work He began in us AS LONG AS
we are IN CHRIST. IF we are IN CHRIST,,,He will complete the work in us.

No conflict.
YOU cause conflicts in scripture by pitting verse against verse.
If we can do that. then we might as well throw out the N.T. because it would not be trustworthy.

Yes, which proves the point that I was making that God does not TRY to work in our lives, God DOES work in our lives. The verse even said so ...

• “it is God who is at work in you” ... it is not God and man working as partners
• “both to will” ... God makes us WANT to obey
• “and to work“ ... God gives us the ability to obey
• “for His good pleasure” ... because that is what God wants to happen.

Look at that, another verse that was about Sanctification after all.

God DOES work in our lives. I just said that.
But do YOU not REPLY to what God wants you to do?
You mean, God comes down from heaven and does everything FOR YOU?

No. What these verses mean is that God give us the STRENGTH to do what we have to do. We are set apart for HIS good deeds. But WE are the one DOING the deed...God helps us.

Jesus said it would be good for HIM to go away so He could send the Holy Spirit, who is our HELPER. Helper FOR WHAT exactly? To DO the will of the Father.
John 16:7

And you're quoting some verses up there about willing to do the work but you haven't provided the verse. Please do so.

Sorry, or you can’t be bothered to quote it, then I can’t be bothered to look it up. So “whatever”.

Again.. Please use syntax...I have no idea what you're speaking of.
I support all my statements with scripture.
And why would you have to LOOK IT UP.
I know you're familiar with scripture...
Could you NOT reply to what I said??

No argument from me, but what part of that reverses the meaning of Philippians 2:13 to suddenly mean that God is powerless without our help and permission or that we are now partners with god instead of a lump of clay in the hands of a Potter.

You don't seem to understand:
WE need God's help.
HE does NOT need our help.
He DOES need our permission. I know you don't believe in free will, but unfortunately the bible does teach free will, beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation.

Genesis 2:16-17
Revelation 3:20

And as to the lump of clay...
YES, I'm happy to be a child of God
NOT a lump of clay.

John 1:12
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,


one of two

 

[GodsGrace]

two of two

If those who believe are not judged, then are they condemned for not working hard enough at their own Sanctification? Does God merely TRY to sanctify people and hope that they will cooperate? No. Through belief, God removed judgement, so we are already sanctified when we are no longer under judgement. God did it without requiring our help.

We will all be judged by our good deeds.
Jesus said so.

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

You see, I get flack from this...but I didn't write the N.T.
Being saved and born from above is a first step.
God DOES require good fruit from good trees.
He speaks a lot about bearing good fruit.
Why would Jesus have done that if "just" being saved was sufficient?
Mathew 7:19 states that every tree that does NOT bear good fruit will be CUT DOWN.

I just post scripture...I didn't write it.

So God can SAVE all by himself without needing any help from us, but God can only TRY to maintain that salvation throughout our life by encouraging our efforts and hoping for our cooperation? You go ahead and believe that if you want. I will stand by the God that needed no help to Justify also needs no help to sanctify and will indeed FINISH what GOD STARTED!

Yes. OUR cooperation is necessary.
God is already saved...
It's US who are desiring to be saved.

The following verses explain all this very well:

1 thessalonians 4:1-8
1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
2For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
7For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
8So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

You can tell from the above verses that:

1. We are EXHORTED in Jesus' name that we are to RECEIVE instruction.
Why would we be exhorted IF God does it all?

2. We are to excel EVEN MORE! We are to become better and bettere.
It does NOT say that GOD will force us to become better..it's left up to us.

3. God wants us to be sanctified...HE TELLS US HOW!
A. By abstaining from sexual immorality, by knowing how to treat our vessel (us) with honor --- once again we see that we are in charge of our vessel. WE have to treat it honorably...God DOES NOT do this for us.

4. He who rejects this principle (which means we are ABLE to reject it) does not
reject man but the Holy Spirit.

“These” is repeated in each case ending with “and these whom He justified, He also glorified”. So the very same people that God justified (without any help from anyone else) are all going to end up GLORIFIED. It isn’t rocket science that you can’t get from justified to glorified without passing through sanctified along the way. Note that WE are not credited with a cooperative effort ... GOD justified and GOD glorified ... so God finishes what God starts and carries us through the Sanctification in between.

No verse given.
But why do you suppose SANCTIFICATION is NOT listed?
Because God justifies.
God glorifies.
God does not sanctify without our cooperation.

Again, if you can’t be bothered to write the verse then I can’t be bothered to read it.
However I hope that you find your SALVATION some day, but as for me, I am looking forward to GLORIFICATION.

YOU worry about your salvation A,
and I'll worry about mine.

I've found on these forums that when one has no answer, they usually go into personal mode and accuse me of not being saved.

I could say the same to you since you are not an orthodox believer..
but have I? No. Please treat me the same way...

I don’t see any limitations on God. I don’t see God TRYING His best and hoping we do the rest. I see “God has chosen” (not WE). I see “by the Spirit” (not by the merit of our actions). I see “faith in the truth” (and we know that faith is of God and the natural man sees only foolishness in it).

Not only do you not SEE correctly,
but you're stating only your opinion.
Where is the scripture?

Quick poll question: How many self-washing pots or bowls do you own?
You might want to go back and reread Romans 9:20-24 for a quick refresher on pots and potters.

I do believe I've answered this fully.
Leave those few verses you love and read the entire bible to get at the truth.

“He who sanctifies” is Jesus (not Jesus and us). “Those who are sanctified” describes our role perfectly ... we are the objects that are acted upon. God does not TRY, God only DOES (as I have stated all along).

Again, more opinion.
Verses please?

Yup, and God did it once and permanently. One offering perfected the sanctified. God does not TRY, God simply DOES (All by Himself).

"Sanctification is the work of God's free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness."

Westminster Shorter Catechism


The Westminster Catechism states that we are ENABLED more and more,
by God's Holy Spirit, to live unto righteousness.


verb (used with object), en·a·bled,en·a·bling.

to make able; give power, means,competence, or ability to; authorize:This document will enable him to passthrough the enemy lines unmolested.

to make possible or easy:Aeronautics enables us to overcome greatdistances.

to make ready; equip (often used incombination):

 

[atpollard]

I've already shown you how the verses you posted DO NOT have to do with sanctification. But, yes, I'm willing to go through them again...BECAUSE their meaning WILL NOT change...It is YOU who are changing the meanings to reconcile with your theology.



I'm going to write only to you. I don't have a lot of time here,,,so I'm going to concentrate on replying to you.

BUT,,,I cannot go back and forth to see what I said to which you are replying.
PLEASE put my statement in your answer so that I can know what you're talking about.

Like for instance, WHAT is only my opinion?
I post verses for almost everything I say and the only reason I don't is because everyone here should know some verses and it takes a lot of time to post them.

So WHAT iS my opinion? That sanctification is a cooperative work between us and God?

You yourself agree that sanctification means being set aside.
FOR WHAT?
We are set aside to do the good deeds that God would want us to do.
Did YOU sit back on your couch and do NOTHING after you were saved?
Or did you try to be a little more friendly and nice to the cashier in the supermarket?

If a neighbor asked a favor of you...did you ask God to come down from heaven and give them a hand,,,or did YOU go over to your neighbor and help them out?

I mean, we need VERSES for this?
There are MANY.

Let's just take this one:


1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

The above is stating that THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, MUST keep his tongue from evil and also be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted and humble in spirit.

Do YOU desire LIFE? Then you must do all of the above, and more.
THIS is cooperating with God,,,when you DO what God wants you to do.

Now show me a verse that states we DO NOT have to do any good deeds.




Yes, I do believe the vessel must cooperate with the potter.

See Jeremiah 18:5-10
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
7“At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

As you can plainly see from verses 8 to10...IF the vessel (the nation) does evil God will act accordingly...the same for verse 10. IF the nation does evil in God's eyes by NOT OBEYING HIS VOICE...He will think better of the good HE HAD PROMISED.

The vessel does indeed cause God to act in a certain way...



I was jumping to John to support my point. Earlier on you scolded me for NOT posting supporting scripture. I don't make up my own rules...they're all in the bible.

The bible is one complete thought A. You cannot separate what God says by picking special little verses that YOU may like...it's ONE THOUGHT..not many little thoughts that God inspired.

Philippians 1:6 states that God will be able to finish what He started IF we ALLOW HIM TO. God does not force anything upon us...we have free will to follow Him or not to follow Him. To ALLOW Him to work in us, or NOT allow Him to work in us.

And how do I know this:
Because Jesus said so in John 15:5-6

John 15:5-6
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

If JESUS says we can do nothing without HIM...
then PAUL must agree with Him.
When Paul says that God will perfect the work began in us in Philippians 1:6....
we must remember what Jesus taught us...that we can do NOTHING without HIM....so yes, God will perfect the work He began in us AS LONG AS
we are IN CHRIST. IF we are IN CHRIST,,,He will complete the work in us.

No conflict.
YOU cause conflicts in scripture by pitting verse against verse.
If we can do that. then we might as well throw out the N.T. because it would not be trustworthy.



God DOES work in our lives. I just said that.
But do YOU not REPLY to what God wants you to do?
You mean, God comes down from heaven and does everything FOR YOU?

No. What these verses mean is that God give us the STRENGTH to do what we have to do. We are set apart for HIS good deeds. But WE are the one DOING the deed...God helps us.

Jesus said it would be good for HIM to go away so He could send the Holy Spirit, who is our HELPER. Helper FOR WHAT exactly? To DO the will of the Father.
John 16:7

And you're quoting some verses up there about willing to do the work but you haven't provided the verse. Please do so.



Again.. Please use syntax...I have no idea what you're speaking of.
I support all my statements with scripture.
And why would you have to LOOK IT UP.
I know you're familiar with scripture...
Could you NOT reply to what I said??



You don't seem to understand:
WE need God's help.
HE does NOT need our help.
He DOES need our permission. I know you don't believe in free will, but unfortunately the bible does teach free will, beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation.

Genesis 2:16-17
Revelation 3:20

And as to the lump of clay...
YES, I'm happy to be a child of God
NOT a lump of clay.

John 1:12
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,


one of two

Short and to the point response ...

Obedience is not Sanctification.

Sanctification is being made progressively more Christ-like from the moment of our initial justification until our final Perfection/Glorification. Sanctification is a work of God through His Holy Spirit.

Obedience is an act of gratitude, love and service undertaken by man in response to God’s work of Justification and his ongoing work of progressive Sanctification.

Our good deeds do not earn God’s Justification and our good deeds to not make us more Christ-like. Being more Christ-like (a work of God) increases our desire to do good works.

If you believe that God NEEDS your permission or your cooperation to make you more Christ-like, then there is no point in exchanging verses ... we will just need to agree to disagree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Short and to the point response ...

Obedience is not Sanctification.

Sanctification is being made progressively more Christ-like from the moment of our initial justification until our final Perfection/Glorification. Sanctification is a work of God through His Holy Spirit.

Obedience is an act of gratitude, love and service undertaken by man in response to God’s work of Justification and his ongoing work of progressive Sanctification.

Our good deeds do not earn God’s Justification and our good deeds to not make us more Christ-like. Being more Christ-like (a work of God) increases our desire to do good works.

If you believe that God NEEDS your permission or your cooperation to make you more Christ-like, then there is no point in exchanging verses ... we will just need to agree to disagree.

Well, for someone that requires verses..
YOU have posted NONE.

So all of the above is YOUR opinion.
Your opinion is worth zero.

Obedience is NOT a sign of gratitude.
God requires obedience...as He always has.

Deuteronomy 11:1
1“You shall therefore love the LORD your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

And since you believe in God's sovereignty, I'll also post the rest:

2“Know this day that I am not speaking with your sons who have not known and who have not seen the discipline of the LORD your God—His greatness, His mighty hand and His outstretched arm, 3and His signs and His works which He did in the midst of Egypt to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to all his land; 4and what He did to Egypt’s army, to its horses and its chariots, when He made the water of the Red Sea to engulf them while they were pursuing you, and the LORDcompletely destroyed them; 5and what He did to you in the wilderness until you came to this place; 6and what He did to Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, the son of Reuben, when the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, their households, their tents, and every living thing that followed them, among all Israel— 7but your own eyes have seen all the great work of the LORDwhich He did.

8“You shall therefore keep every commandment which I am commanding you today, so that you may be strong and go in and possess the land into which you are about to cross to possess it;


As you can see, NOT OBEYING GOD has strong consequences...
If His vessels do NOT do as He wants....His reply is staggering.


Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

All the called of Jesus by the foreknowledge of God must have the obedience of faith as Romans states.


1 Peter 1:1-2
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

We are known by the foreknowledge of God,,,and by the sanctifying work of God we are to OBEY JESUS....Our obedience increases and furthers our sanctification.


Hebrews 12:14
14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

Without holiness, same as sanctification, no one will see God.
And it would also seem from the above verses that Esau is responsible for his own action....HE SOLD HIS OWN BIRTHRIGHT...God just KNEW he would.

 

[justbyfaith]

Love is completed sin. Sin is is incomplete or misused love.

Please elaborate; because this doctrine sounds strange to my ears.

 

[bbyrd009]

All of that and also... God never changes. What He ultimately wants and requires of man has also never changed. He has never just done all of the work for men but rather has always provided the means for men to get it done. No sitting back and waiting for the promise. No sitting back with hands folded saying, I already have the whole loaf, the whole promise of God.

word

 

[bbyrd009]

The key word in that statement is love

well, i wouldnt be writing that in stone ok, hedonists love love too right

 

[justbyfaith]

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

You see, I get flack from this...but I didn't write the N.T.
Being saved and born from above is a first step.
God DOES require good fruit from good trees.
He speaks a lot about bearing good fruit.
Why would Jesus have done that if "just" being saved was sufficient?
Mathew 7:19 states that every tree that does NOT bear good fruit will be CUT DOWN.

I just post scripture...I didn't write it.

Have we not all done evil? (1 John 1:10, Romans 3:23). Therefore, according to your verse (especially in the kjv), all will be raised unto the resurrection of condemnation.

Those who are forgiven, their sins have been washed away and they have been made into new creatures in Christ.

And this is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

If you believe that God NEEDS your permission or your cooperation to make you more Christ-like, then there is no point in exchanging verses ... we will just need to agree to disagree.

Of course, the Lord will not deal with any sin in your life apart from you giving Him permission to do so...He requires surrender.

Obedience is NOT a sign of gratitude.

I think that it is indeed a sign of gratitude...see Luke 7:36-50.

God requires obedience...as He always has.

If God requires obedience, then there is condemnation over disobedience.

How then are we forgiven?

God does not require obedience of the believer, He merely desires it of us; and He also works within us to make it happen.

The obedience that He "requires" of me is a practical love (1 John 3:17-18); and He also provides that love through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

Thus faith in Jesus is all that He requires of us; because a saving faith is something that will produce love in our hearts, which is the obedience that He "requires"...no, for the believer, he only desires it; because if we are in Christ and are disobedient, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. We are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s)...Romans 4:8, Romans 8:37-39, Hebrews 9:12...and therefore if we are disobedient, the penalty has already been paid by Christ's death on the Cross. And therefore, for the believer, obedience is not required (as of a penalty being required for disobedience); it is only desired.

And in this, I find that there is more obedience than when I felt that it was required of me.

Obedience is required only of those who are still under the law.

For those of us who are under grace, obedience is not required; and also sin shall not have dominion over us (Romans 6:14).

 

[bbyrd009]

That we are forgiven of our sins when we believe in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

1 John 2:2 Lexicon: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

so nice try, but bs ok. You were not forgiven of your sins when you believed, and i know thats what you were taught and so thats why you are parrotting it, but it is pure crap bro, ok

Those who are forgiven, their sins have been washed away and they have been made into new creatures in Christ.

and then you woke up