Calvinism is a Cult

[mjrhealth]

I respect your position on this doctrine. It is something I have prayed about for decades and still, my spirit is not at peace with it. To me, it was a stumbling block during the 90's. I walked away because I thought I just was not saved. Never once did a day go by that in some way I sought The Lord. going on 5 years now, I have been back to serving Him and worshipping Him and, I now finally have that "peace that surpasses all understanding" He gives me the confidence that I am saved, because He said so.
So, in hindsight, I should not even be posting on this thread, I told myself that I would avoid it. lol...but I broke my own promise to myself!
God Bless!
nancy

Glad you did, so few get past that and can see what He has done, took me years to "get it".

God bless

 

[SovereignGrace]

I just don't understand how Irresistible Grace is compatible with free will.

If the Grace is Irresistible, then we do not have a choice. We are automatons.

Calvinists change and ignore the definition of words in order to have their doctrines work.

First off, no lost person is free in any sense. The Christ said we can not serve two masters, but love one and hate the other.[Matthew 6:24] If we have a master, we are a slave, and a slave is not free, but bound to his/her master. Then Paul wrote in Romans 6 we were slaves to sin in our lost condition.

We were not automatons in our lost condition, we were dead, nekros which literally means s corpse.

 

[friend of]

We were not automatons in our lost condition, we were dead, nekros which literally means s corpse.

When we are in the state of being pulled by Irresistible grace then we are no longer dead.

But then we are no longer capable of choosing. Irresistible means just that; that we cannot choose.

Calvinists must ignore the meaning of Irresistible in order to allow for free will.

 

[tabletalk]

I'm in agreement; and I believe that it is the Holy Spirit who would teach us that the Father drawing men to Christ and the Father giving men to Christ are two different things.

When the Father draws a man to Christ, he is enabled to make a decision unhindered by demons and/or the flesh and/or the world; either for or against Christ.

When the man makes a decision for Christ, that is when the Father gives him to Jesus from the perspective of predestination according to foreknowledge.

I believe that this teaching is drawn from the verses (John 6:37 (kjv) and John 6:44 (kjv)) and not read into them by any means.

You said: "...he is enabled to make a decision unhindered by demons and/or the flesh and/or the world;.."

Not one person is able to do what you just claimed. Only the sinless Son of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Calvinists must ignore the meaning of Irresistible in order to allow for free will.

The staunch ones don't even believe that free will is a reality.

 

[justbyfaith]

You said: "...he is enabled to make a decision unhindered by demons and/or the flesh and/or the world;.."

Not one person is able to do what you just claimed. Only the sinless Son of God.

I beg to differ. I myself made a decision to follow Christ, backslid after a year of following Him strong, and am now fully returned to Him and restored as the result of reading two of Finney's Sermons recently. (Of course, I have preached the Lord Jesus Christ all of these years in the hope that I might save both myself and those who hear me, 1 Timothy 4:16).

God in His sovereignty is able to remove the influence of demons, the world, and/or the flesh as His Spirit does the work of convicting and drawing a man to Christ. In the day of salvation He succours thee; behold, now is the acceptable time.

One does not have to be sinless in order to be able to make an informed and unhindered decision to believe in and follow the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

I was actually turned to the wrong chapter, my apologies.

What "chapter" were you looking at? I think that you must have been looking at a different book entirely. Paul does not speak very often in the book of Acts.

 

[friend of]

The staunch ones don't even believe that free will is a reality.

They are capable of astounding mental gymnastics to get around this.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

They are capable of astounding mental gymnastics to get around this.

So is the Word of God which we believe; John 1:13; John 8:34; Romans 9:16; John 6:63; John 6:37; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Matthew 11:25-30; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14. Not that you would allow the Word of God to correct you.

 

[justbyfaith]

So is the Word of God which we believe; John 1:13; John 8:34; Romans 9:16; John 6:63; John 6:37; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Matthew 11:25-30; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14. Not that you would allow the Word of God to correct you.

You were referencing John 1:13 out of context: you should have referenced John 1:12-13.

 

[friend of]

So is the Word of God which we believe; John 1:13; John 8:34; Romans 9:16; John 6:63; John 6:37; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Matthew 11:25-29; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14. Not that you would allow the Word of God to correct you.

Are you suggesting that free will does not exist?

 

[SovereignGrace]

When we are in the state of being pulled by Irresistible grace then we are no longer dead.

But then we are no longer capable of choosing. Irresistible means just that; that we cannot choose.

Calvinists must ignore the meaning of Irresistible in order to allow for free will.

Okay, you said ”When we are in the state of being pulled by Irresistible grace then we are no longer dead.” The word draw in English is helko which means “to draw, drag off, to draw by inward power, lead, impel.” It is the same word used when Peter drew his sword in John 18:10 and when the disciples drew the net to shore in John 21:11. It means when God draws, He does so in an effectual manner, i.e. effectual calling/irresistible grace.

So, if they are no longer dead when they are in the state of being drawn, and they refuse, then what? They return to the state of being dead again?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Are you suggesting that free will does not exist?

The lost are slaves to sin.[Romans 6:6, Romans 6:16] The Christ said we can not serve two masters, so if the lost have a master, they are slaves, seeing they have a master. Slaves aren’t free, not even in willing themselves free from their masters.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When we are in the state of being pulled by Irresistible grace then we are no longer dead.

But then we are no longer capable of choosing. Irresistible means just that; that we cannot choose.

Calvinists must ignore the meaning of Irresistible in order to allow for free will.

31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.[John 8]

The lost are slaves of sin per the Christ in John 8:34. Slaves are in bondage to their master. Slaves aren’t free. The Christ came to set His ppl free. They are not free until the Truth[John 14:6] sets them free.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You said: "...he is enabled to make a decision unhindered by demons and/or the flesh and/or the world;.."

Not one person is able to do what you just claimed. Only the sinless Son of God.

He has a grossly inflated view of fallen man ensnared in sin.

 

[tabletalk]

I beg to differ. I myself made a decision to follow Christ, backslid after a year of following Him strong, and am now fully returned to Him and restored as the result of reading two of Finney's Sermons recently. (Of course, I have preached the Lord Jesus Christ all of these years in the hope that I might save both myself and those who hear me, 1 Timothy 4:16).

God in His sovereignty is able to remove the influence of demons, the world, and/or the flesh as His Spirit does the work of convicting and drawing a man to Christ. In the day of salvation He succours thee; behold, now is the acceptable time.

One does not have to be sinless in order to be able to make an informed and unhindered decision to believe in and follow the Lord.

Thanks for your response.
I do not doubt your conversion, but I believe God is always first; before any decision we make for Him, He has determined we would make it. So, we differ on that issue.
The flesh is never free from the 'influence of the flesh'. Even the believer continues to battle 'the old man/nature': the flesh vs. the spirit.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Are you suggesting that free will does not exist?

Deal with the texts of Scripture given you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thanks for your response.
I do not doubt your conversion, but I believe God is always first; before any decision we make for Him, He has determined we would make it. So, we differ on that issue.
The flesh is never free from the 'influence of the flesh'. Even the believer continues to battle 'the old man/nature': the flesh vs. the spirit.

The mind and the flesh are two separate things. The mind is the battleground where the spirit and the flesh fight to gain dominion.

Also, a man can have victory over, and be completely set free from, the influence and power of the flesh. Romans 7:14-25 is referring to believers, yes, but to those who are designated as carnal (Paul sets forth himself as a carnal believer in order to define what it means to be carnal). There are two different types of believer: carnal (i.e. as babes in Christ) and spiritual (i.e. mature believers who are walking in victory). See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

 

[justbyfaith]

The lost are slaves to sin.[Romans 6:6, Romans 6:16] The Christ said we can not serve two masters, so if the lost have a master, they are slaves, seeing they have a master. Slaves aren’t free, not even in willing themselves free from their masters.

Seems to me like you are simply touting a doctrinal position without considering its implications for your own life. Are you yourself set free from sin, is the question I would ask you, or that you must ask yourself.

 

[justbyfaith]

Okay, you said ”When we are in the state of being pulled by Irresistible grace then we are no longer dead.” The word draw in English is helko which means “to draw, drag off, to draw by inward power, lead, impel.” It is the same word used when Peter drew his sword in John 18:10 and when the disciples drew the net to shore in John 21:11. It means when God draws, He does so in an effectual manner, i.e. effectual calling/irresistible grace.

So, if they are no longer dead when they are in the state of being drawn, and they refuse, then what? They return to the state of being dead again?

They do not become alive in the process of being drawn. They are simply enabled to make a decision in which they might be able to take hold of life, as Christ reaches out His hand to them.

If they take His hand, thus taking hold of life, it is in that moment that the Lord imparts to them life (giving them to Christ).