Calvinism is a Cult

[Preacher4Truth]

What is repugnant is how Calvinists turn God into a puppeteer.

Cannot be born again unless you first repent in faith by grace. Which requires free will which Calvinists reject.


That is a dilemma that Calvinist try to dismiss with the magic it is God's will.

There is no way they can call God loving if he's playing games such as this. That is not a compassionate God, but a sadist getting his jollies from misery he creates.

All you're proving is you hate the God of Scripture since he doesn't bow to you or your notions of what is fair to you. You're then calling God unfair which is another way of saying unjust, or, that he practices injustice. Romans 9:20. God has to do as you say or he cannot be God, which in reality makes you your own god.

Secondly you're preaching works salvation since you teach man repents on his own, a work, chooses on his own, a work, believes on his own, another work, all via the unbiblical doctrine of "free will."

Then, according to your false doctrine, God saw you would DO these things so he saved you for what you DID. That's your false gospel, found nowhere in Scripture, but you don't care, you're telling God how it should be according to you.

That's meritorious works and you'll get no congrats over this, but only in this world, patting yourself on the back for your "free will" and what you've done.

Lastly, you have God choosing all who would DO these things, and paying their sin debt, but also paying the sin debt of all others, and then sending them to hell anyway with their debt paid in full by Christ. Everything in your false gospel paints you as god, and God as unjust.

 

[justbyfaith]

God saw you would DO these things so he saved you for what you DID. That's your false gospel, found nowhere in Scripture,

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Lastly, you have God choosing all who would DO these things, and paying their sin debt, but also paying the sin debt of all others, and then sending them to hell anyway with their debt paid in full by Christ.

It should be clear from the following:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

that to not perish a man must come to repentance.

The problem with Calvinism is that it takes the word "repent" out of the vocabulary of its preachers.

Nevertheless this is the foundation of faith (repentance).

Luk 13:1, There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2, And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3, I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4, Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5, I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just as it is , that just because someone believes, does not make them of the elect either...

Indeed, Luke 8:13 shows a person who believes for a while and then falls away.

However, John 6:47 tells us that whosoever believes on Jesus has everlasting life.

How do they have everlasting life if they fell away?

There are two options:

1) Falling away does not constitute losing the spiritual life that the Lord imparts. I reject this because it is preposterous.

2) There are two types of faith spoken of in scripture identified by the same word. One is a shallow, lukewarm, or nominal faith that can be identified as mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. With such a faith, a person can fall away; and such a faith is not unto heart righteousness (Romans 10:10 (kjv)). The second is a heart righteousness that endures to the end (Romans 10:10 (kjv), Matthew 10:22 (kjv), Hebrews 3:6 (kjv), Hebrews 3:14 (kjv))

 

[Dave L]

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Here's where you and the other free willers miss it. “John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.” (John 3:27) (KJV 1900)

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13) (KJV 1900)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Here's where you and the other free willers miss it. “John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.” (John 3:27) (KJV 1900)

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13) (KJV 1900)

Right! Jesus says, concerning salvation, that in it the flesh profits nothing, John 6:63. But the free willers say; "Oh yes the flesh does, by our own free will!!!" Then Jesus tells us none are able to come to him, that no one can, John 6:44, but again the free willers say; "Oh yes we can, by our own free will!!!!" Then they try to find a verse to pit against these truths.

No need to sit around and argue about or decide which is telling the truth. Fact remains they don't like the teachings of Jesus or God's ways, so like the disciples who left Christ due to these truths; John 6:66; they've set about to make the gospel out into what they want it to say. They, like the ones who left in the passage above, stopped following Christ, the Christ of Scripture.

 

[Mjh29]

This really speaks volumes as to the condition of your own heart, as to whether you have the salvation Christ offers, or not.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

I agree you must be born again! Question: Can you birth yourself? Do you have any say in your own birth?

 

[Mjh29]

You seem to want me to hit you with a club every time I seek to make a precision cut with the sword of the Spirit (the scalpel of the word).

No, but when you're holding the sword backwards and then crying 'victory', it needless to say does very little damage. To me, at least.

Abraham was implying that if God did not heed his subsequent intercession for Lot, that He would not be doing right; and the question implied that He could not justly be the Judge of all the earth if He did not do right.

Nowhere does he say this. He is asking God if He would save "for ____ number of people" the city, and God answered saying yes He would. Abraham was learning of just how infinite God's mercy is to His people, not telling God how to be God.

So Jude 1:23 (kjv) is an exhortation to God our Saviour to save people with fear? (So Jude is telling God how to be God?)

Why does God need the apostle Jude to tell Him to save people? And why is this scripture written to us?

No; verses 24-25 are a doxology that is separate from Jude's exhortation to the church to save people with fear, snatching them out of the fire.

Therefore you are grasping at straws.

No, I misunderstood what you meant. Only Christ saves, but when it says "save others" who is Jude talking to? Those who are already in faith. We as Christians have a duty to one another to help each other make sure we are living our lives or Christ's glory; sometimes, our brothers and sisters are doing things that are of the flesh, and it is our job as Christians, and especially the job of pastors, to save us from doing things we will later on regret. And, to reiterate to people who would undoubtedly take this out of context, Jude even says that " To the only wise God our Saviour", showing that it is God that saves. We are to hold one another accountable, and help each other from burning ourselves on the flame that is sin, so as to a live as clean a life as possible to the honor of our Savior.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, but when you're holding the sword backwards and then crying 'victory', it needless to say does very little damage.

The sword is double-edged; so even if I am holding it backwards, it will still cut forwards.

Nowhere does he say this.

That He does say this, is evident in the passage.

No, I misunderstood what you meant. Only Christ saves, but when it says "save others" who is Jude talking to? Those who are already in faith. We as Christians have a duty to one another to help each other make sure we are living our lives or Christ's glory; sometimes, our brothers and sisters are doing things that are of the flesh, and it is our job as Christians, and especially the job of pastors, to save us from doing things we will later on regret. And, to reiterate to people who would undoubtedly take this out of context, Jude even says that " To the only wise God our Saviour", showing that it is God that saves. We are to hold one another accountable, and help each other from burning ourselves on the flame that is sin, so as to a live as clean a life as possible to the honor of our Savior.

You are implying that the fire that we are saving people from is not the fire of hell. And this is a watered-down gospel that is characteristic of the Calvinist persuasion.

And that God tells us to save people from the fire is evident in the passage. But the same spiritual blindness that keeps you from seeing the reality of Romans 5:2, evidently keeps you from seeing the plain meaning of this passage.

All of your scripture reading is coloured by your doctrinal position; but it should be the other way around.

 

[farouk]

Right! Jesus says, concerning salvation, that in it the flesh profits nothing, John 6:63. But the free willers say; "Oh yes the flesh does, by our own free will!!!" Then Jesus tells us none are able to come to him, that no one can, John 6:44, but again the free willers say; "Oh yes we can, by our own free will!!!!" Then they try to find a verse to pit against these truths.

No need to sit around and argue about or decide which is telling the truth. Fact remains they don't like the teachings of Jesus or God's ways, so like the disciples who left Christ due to these truths; John 6:66; they've set about to make the gospel out into what they want it to say. They, like the ones who left in the passage above, stopped following Christ, the Christ of Scripture.

John 6 is very searching; better for people to start believing what it says rather than argue...

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree you must be born again! Question: Can you birth yourself? Do you have any say in your own birth?

For the answer to that question, see the following scripture:

Eze 18:30, Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31, Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32, For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Finney did two excellent messages on this scripture, I will provide them here (even though you are adverse to Finney, someone else could head towards the messages and be saved).

Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts by Charles G. Finney

HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HEART by Charles G. Finney

 

[justbyfaith]

John 6 is very searching; better for people to start believing what it says rather than argue...

I do not see John 6 as supporting Calvinism, and therefore I have no reason to argue with the passage.

 

[farouk]

I do not see John 6 as supporting Calvinism, and therefore I have no reason to argue with the passage.

Whatever the label, it's searching anyway to see both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility in John 6.37:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

[justbyfaith]

Whatever the label, it's searching anyway to see both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility in John 6.37:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

I'm in agreement; and I believe that it is the Holy Spirit who would teach us that the Father drawing men to Christ and the Father giving men to Christ are two different things.

When the Father draws a man to Christ, he is enabled to make a decision unhindered by demons and/or the flesh and/or the world; either for or against Christ.

When the man makes a decision for Christ, that is when the Father gives him to Jesus from the perspective of predestination according to foreknowledge.

I believe that this teaching is drawn from the verses (John 6:37 (kjv) and John 6:44 (kjv)) and not read into them by any means.

 

[Mjh29]

For the answer to that question, see the following scripture:

Eze 18:30, Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31, Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32, For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Finney did two excellent messages on this scripture, I will provide them here (even though you are adverse to Finney, someone else could head towards the messages and be saved).

Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts by Charles G. Finney

HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HEART by Charles G. Finney

Who is he talking to? Israel, who is already chosen. He did not say "Every nation," He said Israel; those who were already the called according to His purpose. As for the Finney, even the title is work's righteousness: Change your heart! Do something to please God, and that is meritous in His sight.

Jerimiah 13:23 -- Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who is he talking to? Israel, who is already chosen. He did not say "Every nation," He said Israel; those who were already the called according to His purpose.

So now, all scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness?

Some verses only apply to Israel and therefore do not apply to the New Testament church. Therefore 2 Timothy 3:16 does not apply to those verses.

As for the Finney, even the title is work's righteousness: Change your heart! Do something to please God, and that is meritous in His sight.

I will let the scripture passage in question speak for itself. If it is preaching works righteousness, then works righteousness is indeed being preached by the word of the Lord; however I believe that Finney makes it clear in his sermons that this passage is not teaching works righteousness; but repentance (a change of direction) for salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jerimiah 13:23 -- Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

So are you saying by this that there is no hope for repentance?

John the Baptist was a false teacher if that is the case!

 

[Mjh29]

So now, all scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness?

Some verses only apply to Israel and therefore do not apply to the New Testament church. Therefore 2 Timothy 3:16 does not apply to those verses.

All is equally inspired, but not all is equally useful for specific situations. If someone was grieving the loss of a loved one, would you point them to the genealogy of Christ? No, those verses do not apply in this specific scenario. Does that mean that these verses are not useful or aren't god breathed?
No.

What I am saying is taking a verse expressly said to be about God's chosen people and applying it to all mankind is misrepresenting God and twisting His words.
John 1:12-13 [this is how to quote this verse in proper context, btw] -- But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Mjh29]

So are you saying by this that there is no hope for repentance?

John the Baptist was a false teacher if that is the case!

Apart from God, there is no hope. God can change the leapers spots! God can change hearts, but apart from Him and His grace to give us faith, and change our spots, NO!

And I'm sure John the Baptist would have no problem giving God all of the glory, and would never claim that it was him who changed himself.

 

[justbyfaith]

John 1:12-13 [this is how to quote this verse in proper context, btw] -- But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I would quote it like this:

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Apart from God, there is no hope. God can change the leapers spots! God can change hearts, but apart from Him and His grace to give us faith, and change our spots, NO!

And I'm sure John the Baptist would have no problem giving God all of the glory, and would never claim that it was him who changed himself.

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost three months before he was even born.