Can Only Mods Solve This Problem?

[Hidden In Him]

We may think that some one else needs shutting down....take care folks , next week it could well be your turn.

I don’t know one single person on here that in every single post, ‘I’ agree 100% with.

This is from the OP, but I repeat it again later in the thread several times. THIS is the problem I take issue with:

Suppose you have a member or members who post threads espousing heresy, but when their arguments are challenged they refuse to address the counter-arguments, and instead use every evasive tactic in the book. But they then turn around and continue to post thread after thread openly claiming that no one can refute their claims.

We all have different opinions about what constitutes heresy and what doesn't. I understand that. What I take issue with is people repeatedly and consistently ignoring those who makes counter-arguments against what they teach, and then turn around and create a new thread espousing the EXACT same thing while professing that no one can refute their arguments. It is trolling.

 

[Butterfly]

I am not being funny, but ever since I joined the forum that has been the case. I realise you are concerned for young or new Christians, but in all honesty there is just so much within this forum that could throw anyone in to confusion - and the word ' heretic' and ' heresy ' I have seen branded within many threads at all kinds of people - personally I think it is a dangerous word to throw around. ( that is just my opinion ).
I am not sure where I stand with what has been conveyed , as I think I know what threads you are talking about - and yet I kind of get what the poster is saying but it's being ' heard ' differently by some. It doesn't mean I agree with everything, but then their are many people I don't agree with, and many who don't agree with me - it's just how it is here.
I think it would be pretty near impossible for the moderators to solve this problem -I am not entirely sure I define ' trolling ' in the same way as you. Sure, it's annoying when a person posts loads of threads which are endeavouring to discuss or challenge the same thing- that bugs me as well.
I would presume it's more out of frustration over not being heard, but that's just my opinion.
Rita

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am not being funny, but ever since I joined the forum that has been the case. I realise you are concerned for young or new Christians, but in all honesty there is just so much within this forum that could throw anyone in to confusion - and the word ' heretic' and ' heresy ' I have seen branded within many threads at all kinds of people - personally I think it is a dangerous word to throw around. ( that is just my opinion ).
I am not sure where I stand with what has been conveyed , as I think I know what threads you are talking about - and yet I kind of get what the poster is saying but it's being ' heard ' differently by some. It doesn't mean I agree with everything, but then their are many people I don't agree with, and many who don't agree with me - it's just how it is here.
I think it would be pretty near impossible for the moderators to solve this problem -I am not entirely sure I define ' trolling ' in the same way as you. Sure, it's annoying when a person posts loads of threads which are endeavouring to discuss or challenge the same thing- that bugs me as well.
I would presume it's more out of frustration over not being heard, but that's just my opinion.
Rita

Good post. There probably aren't a ton of young or new Christians visiting anyway, since we're only talking about 40-50 people viewing at any one time on average, and my guess is most are actually members who are simply not logged on but checking to see what is being posted. And if it were just us in a closed setting I suppose it wouldn't matter so much.

But then it only takes misleading a few here and there to make waves if you will in the spiritual world, and every soul has value in God's eyes, so to me it is still a matter of importance.

Heresy is indeed too strong a word for me as well, but "false teaching" sometimes doesn't quite convey the seriousness of the matter either, so I tend to use both in combination to balance things out.

About things being heard differently, I actually will go into discussions trying to ask questions in an attempt to figure out if what I am hearing is actually correct. But once I get a handle on exactly what is being said, I tend to zero in on where I think a problem lies. And because I am taking the time to engage this person out of genuine interest and/or potential concern, I expect them to take me seriously and not just blow off what I'm saying, especially when it becomes pretty obvious that they are doing so because they do not have a good answer, and yet they feel they have no need to account for any other scriptures than the ones that favor their interpretation. I do "want to be heard," and do find it offensive personally when I am not in that context, but it is not about gaining attention or out-arguing someone. I'm deeply in love with the truth and always have been since the day I got born again, and value it above all else in this life. It is what I live for above absolutely everything and everyone else. So my involvement in religious discussions of any kind is purely for the sake of seeking out the truth with someone, and when I encounter game-playing from people I will hold them accountable.

I'm sure some may view this as being too heavy-handed and dictatorial about things, but it again reminds me of something Byrd said yesterday. "I take it personally," because it is not a game to me. I feel that no one should monopolize forums for their own ends, no matter how justified they may feel about it, and especially a forum like this one. I personally am never all that involved - I just visit and see what others are posting usually - so it is more about keeping things balanced, to where no one ruins what I see as a pretty good place to discuss the scriptures, and spiritual matters in general; one that is still better than the rest of the options, and therefore worth fighting for.

 

[brakelite]

Heresy is basically a cleaving to a doctrine or belief not accepted by the majority. Heresy , or what was held to be different to the "orthodox" majority of the incumbent papal power of the dark ages was something far different to what is today accepted as being different to the majority orthodox belief today. What was a capital offence in the 1600s, is now orthodox. Yet other beliefs J held to be orthodox then is still held to be orthodox today. And anyone disagreeing with that today is now the heretic. Seems to me that the charge of heresy is used as an expletive against the minority opinion rather than what is deemed being biblically sound. In the future, I can clearly envision the majority siding with the popular Antichrist spirit and persecuting the small powerless remnant dissenters... Irrespective of what the Bible does or doesn't teach. Just like in Paul's day... Just like in the dark ages.

 

[Episkopos]

Heresy means division...bringing a division among disciples. The devil wants nothing more than to see the body of Christ to be fragmented. As they say...divide and conquer.

But there is a problem with identifying heresy.

When there is a time where the truth speakers are in the minority....as is usually the case in the wider church...it would seem that they are the heretics. And certainly many true disciples have been persecuted for being a heretic, when in fact it was the other way around.

But look where the love is. Look where the grace is coming through. Chances are the group that is closer to the truth or in the truth will be connected together at the heart level. Not just in doctrine but also in practice.

Heretics, the real heretics, are connected at the head level. Facts without love...for being right for these is more important than people....so then others are disposable and to be cast aside in their quest to be right and win an argument.

But we are not to win arguments....we are to win souls, and win people to Christ.

And the big one...we are to win Christ.

 

[Butterfly]

It's interesting hearing you explain the word ' Heretic ' - I have come to realise that it is a word that seems to hit a much deeper level with me, but I think it's cultural - I have only ever heard it spoken to people with very extreme views- within the context of people who are really enermies of God ( maybe it's a remnant of my childhood and the films my parents use to watch, it certainly isn't a word I have heard much in my own circle of Christian brothers and sisters over the years )
That's been quite interesting to think about X
Rita

 

[GodsGrace]

It's interesting hearing you explain the word ' Heretic ' - I have come to realise that it is a word that seems to hit a much deeper level with me, but I think it's cultural - I have only ever heard it spoken to people with very extreme views- within the context of people who are really enermies of God ( maybe it's a remnant of my childhood and the films my parents use to watch, it certainly isn't a word I have heard much in my own circle of Christian brothers and sisters over the years )
That's been quite interesting to think about X
Rita

The fact that you have NOT been hearing about it is the alarming part.
Because there are many non-biblical ideas floating around these days that
persons will argue about for pages...so it seems like heresy is accepted these
days.

I agree with @brakelite that a small remnant will remain...I do believe this has already begun. I also agree with @Episkopos ' post. They're aware of what's happening...not everyone is.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Heresy is basically a cleaving to a doctrine or belief not accepted by the majority. Heresy , or what was held to be different to the "orthodox" majority of the incumbent papal power of the dark ages was something far different to what is today accepted as being different to the majority orthodox belief today. What was a capital offence in the 1600s, is now orthodox. Yet other beliefs J held to be orthodox then is still held to be orthodox today. And anyone disagreeing with that today is now the heretic. Seems to me that the charge of heresy is used as an expletive against the minority opinion rather than what is deemed being biblically sound. In the future, I can clearly envision the majority siding with the popular Antichrist spirit and persecuting the small powerless remnant dissenters... Irrespective of what the Bible does or doesn't teach. Just like in Paul's day... Just like in the dark ages.

Ok, LoL. I appreciate that. Not sure it addresses the concerns brought up by the OP, but it certainly paints the word "heresy" in a bad light.

You have a good head on your shoulders, Brakelite. Now apply all that to what we do about our present problem, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But look where the love is. Look where the grace is coming through. Chances are the group that is closer to the truth or in the truth will be connected together at the heart level. Not just in doctrine but also in practice.

Heretics, the real heretics, are connected at the head level. Facts without love..

Yes, and they will debate the scriptures with others out of genuine concern for them and the truth, which means not completely ignoring someone else's arguments when they present something that strongly refutes their position. See, I may disagree with someone like Brakelite on a doctrinal matter for instance, and even present what I believe is an argument that refutes it, but he will nevertheless at least respond to it because he holds the discussion itself up in high regard, and respects me enough that he believes I at least deserve a reply. Someone who is operating purely at the head level will not, however, and instead do everything they can to avoid doing so.

This is not to intentionally disparage anyone in particular, but I think it is a fairly accurate assessment of people in general who are not discussing things out of a love for the truth and others but only out of a desire to preach a particular doctrine. I suppose there are also some who may be intimidated and therefore unwilling to respond, believing they teach the truth but not wanting it to look weak by comparison. But I still see this as the same thing: caring more about themselves and their view than others, and therefore being unwilling to admit when they do not have an answer for the particular line of questioning that is being raised against their position.

 

[marks]

Precisely. I don't approach the issue from the perspective that we ourselves bear no responsibility in the matter. In fact, I think we all do to an extent, including in how we respond to this discussion.

I think we can only speak for ourselves on this matter.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

This is from the OP, but I repeat it again later in the thread several times. THIS is the problem I take issue with:



We all have different opinions about what constitutes heresy and what doesn't. I understand that. What I take issue with is people repeatedly and consistently ignoring those who makes counter-arguments against what they teach, and then turn around and create a new thread espousing the EXACT same thing while professing that no one can refute their arguments. It is trolling.

See Chris

We know this is "not Church"... Church meeting order does not apply.
The only Rules are the Forum rules.

There are other people of this forum that repeatedly post their pet subject ad-nauseum. It annoys me, and I can post back and 'have my say'. And often not very friendly because I allow it to 'get to me.'
But they are not breaking FORUM RULES.

No rule says that we must respond and defend our posted statements.
This is what you have allowed to annoy and frustrate you here.

I agree that IF the person has posted a thread in the Debate section...
then yes, they should respond to questions and posts.

I remember when you started a thread ( forgotten the subject matter)...and it wore you out , because the responses came fast back to you and you answered every one....and not everyone was 'against' you as they are in this case...

When a person is being disagreed with...and the responses come fast and furious back...a person would have to be on here all day responding to the speedy rebuttals.

Another reason I cannot agree with you here, is that I am just as guilty.

Unless I want to stay here constantly and defend what I say...I wont start a thread in the Debate section.
So I am guilty of the same... I started a thread about 18 months or more ago.
I wanted to say what I wanted to say...I felt a deep need to state what and why I believed what I believe. And I had no intention of defending it...

If people have not seen what I believe I have seen in God's word, and that which I believe He has proved to us in His word. Then fine, I can state what I have seen about grace , love etc ...and and I can pray that God opens peoples eyes to also see...but it is not my place, neither my job to try and convince other people about what I believe. It is their place to do their own seeking and not just believe everything that comes at the traditionally across the pulpits. If they are lazy and do not search things out for themselves... that is upon them. Some just love to sit and listen to some teacher or other, and never search, pray, or wait , for themselves.
Therefore I do not debate very often what I believe, "for me" it is just not up for 'debate'.

You see Chris. We are probably are all different. My way of doing things is not your way. I tend to just "drip out" the things I believe in deeply.
I don't do the "in your face" way of things.

The two big issues in my life after being saved..were 1) The Sonship message, and 2) The final restoration of all things ( Acts 3 .21)

Someone, 'in passing' ... dropped a few crumbs....the latter took almost a decade of weighing scriptures , praying for answers , and listening to the Holy Spirit...( until one day the heavens opened)

We each must stand firm on what we believe we have heard in the inner ear from God. Somethings for me are not up for Debate. Others can receive them, or throw them out when I drop crumbs.
I see this case in point no differently.
You don't agree with what is posted in that thread, fine...just state you rebuttal and what 'you' see as truth, and allow everyone else to do the same!

This is a case , as I believe @Willie T mentioned Acts 5.
33 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. ....
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

Chris, it is God's business. And I say again.
A Christian Forum , is just that, it is not a church meeting or gathering...it is just " A Forum" ...and like the old ancient forums ..anyone can get up on his hind legs and speak.

Bless you...Helen

 

[marks]

But look where the love is. Look where the grace is coming through. Chances are the group that is closer to the truth or in the truth will be connected together at the heart level. Not just in doctrine but also in practice.

Heretics, the real heretics, are connected at the head level. Facts without love...for being right for these is more important than people....so then others are disposable and to be cast aside in their quest to be right and win an argument.

I'd have to say we're either connected in the Spirit of Christ or we're not connected at all. But God's grace will bring us together, I agree, to all who are true.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

Heresy is basically a cleaving to a doctrine or belief not accepted by the majority. Heresy , or what was held to be different to the "orthodox" majority of the incumbent papal power of the dark ages was something far different to what is today accepted as being different to the majority orthodox belief today. What was a capital offence in the 1600s, is now orthodox. Yet other beliefs J held to be orthodox then is still held to be orthodox today. And anyone disagreeing with that today is now the heretic. Seems to me that the charge of heresy is used as an expletive against the minority opinion rather than what is deemed being biblically sound. In the future, I can clearly envision the majority siding with the popular Antichrist spirit and persecuting the small powerless remnant dissenters... Irrespective of what the Bible does or doesn't teach. Just like in Paul's day... Just like in the dark ages.

YES!!!!!

 

[APAK]

@Hidden In Him and to all.......

Out of the sinful hearts of men rise uncontrollable appetites for thoughts and actions of many vanities, and especially to dominate and control others. The self-righteousness of mankind beats it collective heart at the resonant frequencies only known to the world spirit. It does not know the truth.

It beats as an atypical pendulum of life, and sinful mankind resonates with these natural frequencies, opposed to the truth of the Spirit. As it says in scripture, who can know the hearts of men?

It moves as an unpredictable tide cycle or as an unbalanced pendulum that swings from one direction to the other, erratically and unpredictably. From control to chaos, from anarchy to dictatorship. The nations rise up and fall because of it. Groups and communities rise up and fall because of it. Forums such as this one also rises and fall, without the knowledge of truth as its anchor. They listen to the spirit(s) of the ‘dead;’ and that also includes themselves at times. They do not heed the Spirit within, of those that call themselves believers, Christians in Christ, ever moving forward toward perfection.

I say, who knows all the members of the community, the Body of Christ in this forum? The truth lies in the Spirit and surely not generated by me!

Bless you,

APAK

 

[marks]

but it certainly paints the word "heresy" in a bad light.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

I wouldn't be so quick to repaint.

Reminds me . . .

OK.

The pastor on his day off decides to paint the fellowship hall, but the day is nearly over, the paint's running low . . . so he mixes in a little water, finishes the job.

And when he comes in Sunday to preach, everyone is looking at the new paint, and where the old color shows through on that last part.

Ouch! And then the still small voice . . .'Repaint! And thin no more!"

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

I suppose there are also some who may be intimidated and therefore unwilling to respond, believing they teach the truth but not wanting it to look weak by comparison.

This is a good point to notice.

Or maybe, it's not about not wanting to look weak, but feeling weak compared to those who have refined their teaching for years.

People know what they read in Scripture, but how many are there to bring all these fine sounding arguments to convince them that they can't just read it and believe it.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

This is from the OP, but I repeat it again later in the thread several times. THIS is the problem I take issue with:

I know I already answered you above. BUT
This thread is weighing heavily upon me.

I feel it is a subtle play to get a brother (and whatever anyone thinks....
He is a brother.) banned by drawing attention to the Admins,because some do not like what the brother believes. That is pretty sad...

It looks like a case of - lets shut his mouth , and only have 'traditional, fundamental, accepted, teaching, remain here.

If H.Richard is banned, then I should be banned too, and also I have a list of other on this site who are not "boxed, traditional ,or fundamental" in what they believe.

I will watch The Forum Rules... If they change where the Love of God, and Grace are concerned. Then I too will not belong here....along with others...

Then...maybe the site will be acceptable to "the ruling majority".

( and no one corrected my "exceptable" ...or however it was spelled!lol
Where was @Enoch111 when a person needs him )

 

[marks]

Is that what we're doing here? Trying to raise up a gang to get someone banned whom the mods haven't seen fit to ban?

Much love?

 

[GodsGrace]

Is that what we're doing here? Trying to raise up a gang to get someone banned whom the mods haven't seen fit to ban?

Much love?

I didn't think so. His name was never mentioned.
He has his right to believe as he will. I don't agree with him in many ways, but in other ways, I DO understand what he's trying to say.

He's always answered my posts.
Censorship is not good.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Tried posting this before, but the computer is acting up. So let's try and send it again, maybe in two parts this time LoL.

No rule says that we must respond and defend our posted statements.

This is what you have allowed to annoy and frustrate you here.

I understand, Helen, only my reason for posting this thread is that I am questioning whether it should be this way or not. Isn't it one of things that leads to a great deal of strife here? You just admitted that it bothers you, too. To me, if no one is expected to defend what they post, it just leaves the door open to anyone posting anything. It doesn't foster discussion, it just irritates the daylights out of people, LoL. I see ours as a community rather than just a forum, so maybe that is where we differ especially. But such tactics (and policies, if they are in place) do not foster community; they foster just the opposite and incite strife, and make this Christian forum look like anything but that.

I agree that IF the person has posted a thread in the Debate section...

then yes, they should respond to questions and posts.

This means the problem will persist and remain in every section but the debate section, which those who want to post whatever they want to without having to defend it will simply avoid like the plague, LoL.

I remember when you started a thread ( forgotten the subject matter)...and it wore you out , because the responses came fast back to you and you answered every one....and not everyone was 'against' you as they are in this case..

Not everyone is against me in this thread! I think you're misreading some of the posters initial responses as their final opinions, but it may not be true. If it is so be it, I will bow to the majority opinion. But I will not go willingly into simply allowing deception and false teaching to go unchallenged. If I did, I would answer to God for it, and I am not going to be condemned by Him simply to go along with whatever the consensus felt about things without speaking up.

Unless I want to stay here constantly and defend what I say...I wont start a thread in the Debate section.

So I am guilty of the same... I started a thread about 18 months or more ago.

I wanted to say what I wanted to say...I felt a deep need to state what and why I believed what I believe. And I had no intention of defending it...

I think many may do this, and I see no problem with posting such threads. But again, the gripe here is specifically about those who post thread after thread presenting the exact same argument while refusing to answer legitimate counter-arguments to them and then boasting on yet another thread that they cannot be refuted, so that anyone visiting the forum will be swayed by the awesomeness of their argument, "from scripture." If we are in the business of simply allowing deception to be posted and go completely unchallenged, then I agree we should just look the other way and let it pass, but I don't feel that way and I am not the only one here.

I don't post anything I am not ready to defend, because I feel spiritually responsible to others for what I say, and will answer to God for it all one day. I simply get the impression that many do not feel the same way, and are playing "teacher" when it is a far more serious matter than that. James said so.