Catholic issues

[Eternally Grateful]

Nope, I don't assume Nicodemus was there. I assume what the bible eludes to and I have already been over that.

Another lie. I have responded to it multiple times. Your theory is that since He didn't use the word baptism He didn't mean baptism. I accept what has been taught for 2,000 years. You reject it. We have talked about this already.

Goodness....

Theory?

Its just common sense

If I tell you that in order to be part of my company, you have to do these steps. Yet I leave one of the steps out and people come after and try to tell you that you must also do this step.

Either I was fraudulent and insincere when I told you what you needed to do, or the person who is trying to tell you to add a step is lying to you.

Now I do not think Jesus is fraudulent, or forgot to mention something so important.

He told nicodemus how to be born again. Believe, period. Thats it.

Some church coming a few hundred years later and saying he meant baptism. Is decieving people. And calling Jesus irresponsible

 

[Marymog]

I never said they read it to verify scripture

IF THEY TRUSTED PAUL BLINDLY. THEY WOULD NOT NEED TO LOOK AT SCRIPTURE. THEY WOULD JUST TAKE PAUL AT HIS WORD.

and yes, I am yelling, I have never seen someone twist what is being said and sdo whatever she can to try to bring it to her favor.

You said that you: verify with scripture that what the person, people, or church is telling me.

The Bereans used the OT to verify what Paul was telling them about Jesus being the Messiah spoken of in Scripture. They then took Paul at his word about what doctrine Jesus taught....YOU use the NT to verify what other people tell you and YOU decide if what they are telling you is right. That is not what the Bereans did.

 

[Marymog]

Some church coming a few hundred years later and saying he meant baptism. Is decieving people. And calling Jesus irresponsible

Complete lie!!

The earliest non-canonical teachings of The Church teach what I have told you and has taught it for 2,000 years. Your men, 1,500 years later, came up with the teaching YOU now follow. I have Scripture and Christian history on my side. You have your men on your side.

 

[Marymog]

BAPTIZE THEM

They were to be made disciples first. Then baptize them

Ok.....after they became disciples first, how did they "BAPTIZE THEM"?

 

[Marymog]

Men have not taught me anything my friend.

Ok....sooooo, according to your own admittance, you only call people to get their opinion and then YOU decide if their opinion is right. They don't teach you anything. I get it....

 

[Berserk]

The point that EG continually ducks is that, just as "born of water" (John 3:5) is presented as a condition for entering the kingdom of heaven, so baptism and faith are presented as conditions for salvation in Mark 16:16). The latter verse clarifies the former. Being born of out amniotic fluid is not condition for salvation because all are born that way. In any case, EG can provide no example of "born of water" as a reference to birth fluid.
And notice how EG and his ilk continually ducks Peter's insistence that, "baptism...now saves you (1 Peter 3:21)!"

 

[Marymog]

yep water

every seen a woman who gives birth. Their water breaks

This is called being born in the flesh.

One must be born again though

there is water/flesh birth, and there is spirit birth.

I believe Nicodemus understood, because jesus told him how to be born again. Through faith in the fact Jesus will be lifted up.

Why can't you see it?

Jesus said, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Your men have interpreted that as no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born via normal human means and Spirit.

Fascinating.....So if a child is "born" by c-section, they don't qualify to enter the kingdom of God?

Curious Mary

 

[Jim B]

Jesus said, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Your men have interpreted that as no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born via normal human means and Spirit.

Fascinating.....So if a child is "born" by c-section, they don't qualify to enter the kingdom of God?

Curious Mary

The fetus is surrounded by amniotic fluid throughout the pregnancy. Legalism isn't the best approach, as the meaning is clear: there are two births: natural and spiritual.

 

[Illuminator]

Jesus said, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Your men have interpreted that as no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born via normal human means and Spirit.

Fascinating.....So if a child is "born" by c-section, they don't qualify to enter the kingdom of God?

Curious Mary

Perhaps someone could clarify the word "and". I would look it up myself but I am having a lazy spell.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus said, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. Your men have interpreted that as no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born via normal human means and Spirit.

Fascinating.....So if a child is "born" by c-section, they don't qualify to enter the kingdom of God?

Curious Mary

My men?

Is this all you can come up with?

You keep focusing on what Jesus said must happen

You totally ignore how jesus said it happens.

Once again, You have not even been baptized. So please do not try to attack me on baptism. And claiming I listen to men. When it is you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Perhaps someone could clarify the word "and". I would look it up myself but I am having a lazy spell.

The word Kai

What @Marymog fails to comprehend. Is jesus already told nicodemus one had to be born from ABOVE. (Spiritual)

Nicodemus asked Jesus. How can a man enter once again into the womb of his mother (water)

Jesus is telling him simply physical birth is not enough. Once must be born from above. (Born of the spirit) Jesus also called it spiritual matters, not physical (water vs spirit)

When jesus told him HOW to be born again. Jesus only said whoever believes (saving faith) will be born again,

No mention of water baptism. Because water baptism is not required.

 

[Marymog]

My men?

Is this all you can come up with?

You keep focusing on what Jesus said must happen

You totally ignore how jesus said it happens.

Once again, You have not even been baptized. So please do not try to attack me on baptism. And claiming I listen to men. When it is you.

Yes, your men. Unless you study and interpret Scripture on your own which I know you don't since you already admitted you ask others for their interpretation....Soooooo that means you listen to your men OR you listen to yourself. Either way you are listening to a person!

You totally ignored my question. Please answer: If a child is "born" by c-section, they don't qualify to enter the kingdom of God?

 

[Marymog]

What @Marymog fails to comprehend. Is jesus already told nicodemus one had to be born from ABOVE. (Spiritual)

Complete lie and I have made it very clear and I have repeated what Scripture says: one has to be born from above. That is done when one is baptized and the Spirit comes down upon them: Acts 1:5, 2:38, 11:16, Matthew 3:11-16, Titus 3:5

I have also made it clear that one can recieve The Spirit in other ways but baptism is ONE of the ways.....

Notice how I keep quoting Scripture to back up what I have said? You just keep repeating what your men have taught you!! Can you please start quoting Scripture to back up what you are saying so we can have a fact based discussion instead of an opinion based discussion?

 

[Marymog]

He told nicodemus how to be born again. Believe, period. Thats it.

Some church coming a few hundred years later and saying he meant baptism. Is decieving people. And calling Jesus irresponsible

Nope, complete lie. The word "believe" is NOT in His statement: Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”....no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Your men taught you that this teaching started a few hundred years later is a lie also. Or, if you taught yourself that, you are a horrible researcher:

Justin Martyr Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan' [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven' [John 3:5] (Fragments of the Lost Writings 34 [inter A.D. 175-185]).

Show me an older teaching from your men who have taught you than what I just provided. Oh, that's right, you can't, because The Church destroyed every historical document in the entire world that backs up what your deceiving men have taught you. Your documentation is only about 500 years old I presume....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, your men. Unless you study and interpret Scripture on your own which I know you don't since you already admitted you ask others for their interpretation....

Once again, you are are a bearer of false witness! I have never stated any such comment.

do you do this as a means to continue in your faulty belief?

Soooooo that means you listen to your men OR you listen to yourself. Either way you are listening to a person!

You totally ignored my question. Please answer: If a child is "born" by c-section, they don't qualify to enter the kingdom of God?

A child born of C section is still born of water. They have to break the sack.

what a joke..

You still have not answer why Jesus failed to mention baptism when he told nicodemus HOW one is born again.

 

[Berserk]

4 reasons why John 3:5 specifies baptism as a condition for entering the kingdom of heaven:
(1) 2nd century Christians take "born of water" as a reference to baptism (Thanks, Marymog).
(2) No one in the first 2 centuries takes "born of water" as a reference to birth fluid and there is no evidence that first century Jews referred to the birth role of amniotic fluid as "born of water."
(3) A reference to "born of water" as natural birth makes no sense as a confition for entering the kingdom of hraven because even the most wicked experience natural birth.
(4) Jesus elsewhere identifies baptism as a condition for salvation (Mark 16:16) just as he does in John 3:5.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Complete lie and I have made it very clear and I have repeated what Scripture says: one has to be born from above. That is done when one is baptized and the Spirit comes down upon them: Acts 1:5, 2:38, 11:16, Matthew 3:11-16, Titus 3:5

I have also made it clear that one can recieve The Spirit in other ways but baptism is ONE of the ways.....

Notice how I keep quoting Scripture to back up what I have said? You just keep repeating what your men have taught you!! Can you please start quoting Scripture to back up what you are saying so we can have a fact based discussion instead of an opinion based discussion?

Lie?

Where is John 3 did Jesus tell nicodemus to be baptized??

Born from above is spiritual birth..

And jesus told nicodemus how to be born from above

Whoever believes will not perish but have eternal life

He who believes is not condemned, he who believed not is condemned already

Absolutely no mention of baptism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nope, complete lie. The word "believe" is NOT in His statement: Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”....no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

born of water is WHAT must happen.

This is how jesus said it is accomplished.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

no, repeat No mention of baptism

Your men taught you that this teaching started a few hundred years later is a lie also. Or, if you taught yourself that, you are a horrible researcher:

Justin Martyr Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan' [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven' [John 3:5] (Fragments of the Lost Writings 34 [inter A.D. 175-185]).

Show me an older teaching from your men who have taught you than what I just provided. Oh, that's right, you can't, because The Church destroyed every historical document in the entire world that backs up what your deceiving men have taught you. Your documentation is only about 500 years old I presume....

funny, You told me my men, Then post your men.

What a joke.

 

[Marymog]

born of water is WHAT must happen.

This is how jesus said it is accomplished.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

no, repeat No mention of baptism

Nope, not true. That IS NOT "how jesus said it is accomplished"!! He SHOWED us how it is accomplished.

Just before his discourse with Nicodemus Jesus was baptized, in water, and the Spirit descended upon Him. RIGHT AFTER His discourse with Nicodemus He and His Apostles went out and baptized, with water, and the Apostles taught that when one is baptized, with water, you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Apostles literally TOLD you and SHOWED you how to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit thru water baptism and the effects of it and you are ignoring them.....I don't know why....well, I do know why. You are listening to the wrong men.

Just because Jesus said "water and Spirit" and he didn't say "baptism and Spirit" your men taught you that water doesn't mean baptism.....even though RIGHT BEFORE saying "water and Spirit" he received the Spirit in water baptism and RIGHT AFTER that he went out and baptized with WATER and it was taught that you would receive the Spirit upon being water baptized but in the middle of all that you have been taught that WATER did not = Baptism.....That's just crazy, dishonest and NOT what Christianity has taught for 2,000 year. That would make Jesus and the Apostles very confusing teachers and I don't think they were.

 

[Marymog]

funny, You told me my men, Then post your men.

What a joke.

Nothing funny about it and it's not a joke.

Through out our entire discussion I have made it VERY CLEAR that I trust the men of The Church to properly interpret Scripture and give me sound doctrine. I have posted MULTIPLE TIMES quotes from "my men". I have been VERY CLEAR on what I believe and from whom I get it.

You on the other hand have said two different things. First you insist you don't rely on others and then you say you do. When I point that you admited that you do rely on others you then say you don't rely on others....soooooooo Are you joking with me?

So to be clear: I rely on the men of The Church to give me sound doctrine. YOU rely on YOU....except when you rely on "other people"....but YOU make the final decision. You have YOU...I have the men of The Church.