Christian "gay Bashing"

[Duckybill]

Nothing! They have nothing to do with rights - that is my point, remember?

It certainly does have to do with rights.

It was your claim that Christians have no rights - I am asking when you are going to start living what you are claiming - giving up your citizenship is the first step.

Christians do not have any rights in the NT. You are getting WAY out in left field.

 

[aspen]

It certainly does have to do with rights.

So when are you going to give yours up? And why did Paul not renounce his rights as a Roman citizen?

Christians do not have any rights in the NT. You are getting WAY out in left field.


Um....this is your quote, not mine - "Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? We MUST give up our rights."
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Look, you need to answer the questions or just admit that you have overreached your interpretation of the SotM. It is not a big deal unless you continue you line of reasoning
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[marksman]

Of course not. What right have you been deprived of, lately? He you been denied a job, housing, or hospital record access because of being heterosexual?

Forgive me if I stick with what we were talking about. I asked if homosexuals had the right to trample on my religious beliefs if I was renting an apartment and did not want to rent it to homosexuals. If the law does not allow me to make such a decision based on my religious beliefs, then my rights have been trampled on. In onther wods, my rights have been taken away to satisfy homosexuals.

 

[aspen]

Forgive me if I stick with what we were talking about. I asked if homosexuals had the right to trample on my religious beliefs if I was renting an apartment and did not want to rent it to homosexuals. If the law does not allow me to make such a decision based on my religious beliefs, then my rights have been trampled on. In onther wods, my rights have been taken away to satisfy homosexuals.

In America, your religious rights do not include discriminating against certain groups.

What would you say to a landlord that refused to rent to a single, pregnant mom because to do so would be to shelter a sinner?

Here is what I have learned from experience; a healthy faith is an enthusiasm for what is; not an anger for what isn't. It is easy to wake up every morning and look for all the personal loss that will or may be experience during the day - it is a sure road to bitterness.

Also, I am not sure if providing shelters for sinners is a sin, but I do know that Christ told us to feed the hungry and clothed the naked and care for the sick and I know taking a sin inventory was never part of the process.

I am also pretty sure Christ told the disciples to focus on helping those who need help - not focus on what they were going to lose in the deal.

Here are the laws in America:


[font="Verdana][size="5"]Fair Housing Laws and Presidential Executive Orders[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]

[font="Verdana][size="1"][/size][/font][/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]The Fair Housing Laws:[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]Fair Housing Act
[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act), as amended, prohibits discrimination in the sale, rental, and financing of dwellings, and in other housing-related transactions, based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status (including children under the age of 18 living with parents or legal custodians, pregnant women, and people securing custody of children under the age of 18), and handicap (disability). More on the Fair Housing Act[/size][/font]


[font="Verdana][size="2"]Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]
Title VI prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, or national origin in programs and activities receiving federal financial
assistance.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973
Section 504 prohibits discrimination based on disability in any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Section 109 of Title I of the Housing and Community Development Act of 1974
Section 109 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex or religion in programs and activities receiving financial assistance from HUD's Community Development and Block Grant Program.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
Title II prohibits discrimination based on disability in programs, services, and activities provided or made available by public entities. HUD enforces Title II when it relates to state and local public housing, housing assistance and housing referrals.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Architectural Barriers Act of 1968
The Architectural Barriers Act requires that buildings and facilities designed, constructed, altered, or leased with certain federal funds after September 1969 must be accessible to and useable by handicapped persons.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Age Discrimination Act of 1975
The Age Discrimination Act prohibits discrimination on the basis of age in programs or activities receiving federal financial assistance.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Title IX of the Education Amendments Act of 1972
Title IX prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in education programs or activities that receive federal financial assistance.


Fair Housing-Related Presidential Executive Orders:[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]<a href="http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/EXO11063.cfm" style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(153, 0, 0); ">Executive Order 11063
Executive Order 11063 prohibits discrimination in the sale, leasing, rental, or other disposition of properties and facilities owned or operated by the federal government or provided with federal funds.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Executive Order 11246
Executive Order 11246, as amended, bars discrimination in federal employment because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Executive Order 12892
Executive Order 12892, as amended, requires federal agencies to affirmatively further fair housing in their programs and activities, and provides that the Secretary of HUD will be responsible for coordinating the effort. The Order also establishes the President's Fair Housing Council, which will be chaired by the Secretary of HUD.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Executive Order 12898
Executive Order 12898 requires that each federal agency conduct its program, policies, and activities that substantially affect human health or the environment in a manner that does not exclude persons based on race, color, or national origin.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Executive Order 13166
Executive Order 13166 eliminates, to the extent possible, limited English proficiency as a barrier to full and meaningful participation by beneficiaries in all federally-assisted and federally conducted programs and activities.[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Executive Order 13217
Executive Order 13217 requires federal agencies to evaluate their policies and programs to determine if any can be revised or modified to improve the availability of community-based living arrangements for persons with disabilities.[/size][/font]

 

[deprofundis]

I think it's interesting how people only seem to notice their rights being violated; several people have argued that Christians should be allowed to refuse services to and otherwise discriminate against homosexuals, but I imagine most of them would be outraged were someone to refuse to allow a Christian the exact same services; people have said homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to even openly and publicly admit who they are, but would be furious if Christians weren't allowed to openly preach in the media, let alone weren't allowed to even admit they were Christian.

Furthermore, I don't get why one would refuse to rent an apartment to homosexuals, specifically. I mean, would you refuse to rent an apartment to any sinner? As I've mentioned elsewhere, Leviticus also forbids one to cut one's hair or shave, so would you not let anyone without a beard rent an apartment, and would you require examining all their clothes to make sure none had mixed fabrics?

Besides which, your argument of freedom of religion fundamentally runs into trouble. What if someone does not wish to rent an apartment to those not of his or her religion? If people have the right to discriminate against others as a part of their freedom of religion, they have the right to refuse to rent the apartment, but this infringes on the freedom of religion of those attempting to rent the apartment by essentially forcing them to change their religion in exchange for a basic necessity. Simply put, you may believe what you like, but you cannot force it upon others in exchange for basic needs such as food, water, or housing. It may seem like your "right" to do so, but I imagine you'd think differently if the roles were reversed, and it were Christians such a policy forced out onto the street.

 

[mjrhealth]

I cant see how being a homosexual is trampling down christian beliefs. Christians do a good enough job, of doing it themselves. Proclaiming self rightousness and condeming all who are different. Funny thing is Jesus is quiet happy to walk amongst them, showing them compassion, and loving them anyway, while christians condemn them and others while proclaiming to be doing Gods will. When people stop being religious and become like Christ then the world will be a different place, untill then its going to be a who is more rightous then who competition, but in the end , Gods love for all men will win, not our rightousness for we have none.

In His Love

Oh and you have no right to judge anyman.

 

[aspen]

Furthermore, I don't get why one would refuse to rent an apartment to homosexuals, specifically. I mean, would you refuse to rent an apartment to any sinner? As I've mentioned elsewhere, Leviticus also forbids one to cut one's hair or shave, so would you not let anyone without a beard rent an apartment, and would you require examining all their clothes to make sure none had mixed fabrics?

Actually, that would not even work because most likely people with beards trim them - wait a minute! People who belong to the Sikh religion are forbidden to cut their hair or beards.....so there you go! Oh wait........




I tell you what, the greatest thing ever...ever..ever is if God opened Heaven to everyone. He is the type to do something that great......

The only question I have is, how many people would actually be angry about it? I know a few Calvinists that would try to argue with God about it - "this goes against the Word of GOD!!!!!"

 

[deprofundis]

I agree. I've always believed that God is understanding, as well as just and merciful. I hope, and believe, that Heaven is open to anyone who tries, honestly and truly, to do what is right and honour what they believe Him to be. It's never seemed fair to me for people to be condemned for that which they truly cannot help; it doesn't seem just to condemn one who never heard the Word for not embracing it. No matter what, people will always make mistakes, and I think God knows and understands that; I think what's important is that people truly do their utmost to make the world a better place. As "Love is the fulfillment of the Law," Heaven is open to any who try, truly, to Love, to help rather than harm, even if they are misguided or have been misled. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm certain many think I am and I mean no offense to them or their beliefs, but this is my deepest hope. There are so many the Word won't reach, and to whom it will be misrepresented or by whom it will be misinterpreted, through the simple limitations of our mortal communication and understanding, that it fills me with great sorrow to think that they will be denied the Kingdom. I believe, though, that one must be able accept Christ without ever having known his name or heard the truth of his teachings, through one's intentions and deeds.

 

[Duckybill]

It certainly does have to do with rights.

So when are you going to give yours up? And why did Paul not renounce his rights as a Roman citizen?

Christians do not have any rights in the NT. You are getting WAY out in left field.

Um....this is your quote, not mine - "[font="tahoma][size="2"]Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? We MUST give up our rights."[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="2"]Look, you need to answer the questions or just admit that you have overreached your interpretation of the SotM. It is not a big deal unless you continue you line of reasoning[/size][/font]

I must admit that I don't have a clue what you are talking about. Smoke screen maybe?

 

[religusnut]

I think it's interesting how people only seem to notice their rights being violated; several people have argued that Christians should be allowed to refuse services to and otherwise discriminate against homosexuals, but I imagine most of them would be outraged were someone to refuse to allow a Christian the exact same services; people have said homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to even openly and publicly admit who they are, but would be furious if Christians weren't allowed to openly preach in the media, let alone weren't allowed to even admit they were Christian.

Furthermore, I don't get why one would refuse to rent an apartment to homosexuals, specifically. I mean, would you refuse to rent an apartment to any sinner? As I've mentioned elsewhere, Leviticus also forbids one to cut one's hair or shave, so would you not let anyone without a beard rent an apartment, and would you require examining all their clothes to make sure none had mixed fabrics?

Besides which, your argument of freedom of religion fundamentally runs into trouble. What if someone does not wish to rent an apartment to those not of his or her religion? If people have the right to discriminate against others as a part of their freedom of religion, they have the right to refuse to rent the apartment, but this infringes on the freedom of religion of those attempting to rent the apartment by essentially forcing them to change their religion in exchange for a basic necessity. Simply put, you may believe what you like, but you cannot force it upon others in exchange for basic needs such as food, water, or housing. It may seem like your "right" to do so, but I imagine you'd think differently if the roles were reversed, and it were Christians such a policy forced out onto the street.

If it were my apartment why should I be forced to rent it to anybody I did not want to for any reason? If it is mine why can't I choose who I want to rent it to period? That is the problem I see with the loss of liberty. If I am a Muslim, Christian, Atheist, or what ever you fill in the blank, why should I be forced to rent to anybody that comes along when it is MINE. I worked for it. I did what ever I had to do to acquire it. I have to manage it and I have to deal with you if I rent it to you. You can call it anything you want to but it should be a violation of the constitution for anybody to tell me what I have to do with my property.

 

[Foreigner]

"But homosexuals have the same rights according to the Constitution as all American citizens - which means no one can violate their rights." - aspen


-- Here we go again.

Please tell me - specifically - which rights guaranteed under the Constitution as per the United States Supreme Court are currently being held back from homosexuals?

 

[aspen]

I must admit that I don't have a clue what you are talking about. Smoke screen maybe?

You do not know what I am talking about because you are not reading my posts. Instead, you are trying to make a claim about scripture that is not true and refusing to follow your own logic all the way through. According to you:


1. Jesus calls Christians in the NT to give up ALL of their rights
2. It still applies to us today: "Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? We MUST give up our rights."
[font="tahoma][size="2"]3. American citizens have rights (including marginalized groups like homosexuals)[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]4. So if Christians really must give up their rights, I am wondering when you are going to give up yours?[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]We may indeed by in left field, at this point, but we here by following your logic.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]The reason I am carrying your reasoning to its logical end is to illustrate how often people make incorrect and idealistic statements without thought to how it will impact themselves or others if it was actually carried out. It is easy and noble to make a statement like 'Christians must give up all their rights', but what does that really mean? Saying it without looking at the full impact of what you are saying is irresponsible. There is also a whiff of arrogance in there somewhere, in a martyrish kind of way.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]The Sermon on the Mount is actually informing us that God is not looking for the same people for His Kingdom as the Jews - the Jewish people were looking for a warrior Messiah who would gather an army to overthrow the Romans. Jesus was telling them a message that they did not want to hear - the Kingdom was going to be populated by the humble and patient people - those who would turn the other cheek rather than fight. It has nothing to do with giving up all are rights as Christians.
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[aspen]

If it were my apartment why should I be forced to rent it to anybody I did not want to for any reason? If it is mine why can't I choose who I want to rent it to period? That is the problem I see with the loss of liberty. If I am a Muslim, Christian, Atheist, or what ever you fill in the blank, why should I be forced to rent to anybody that comes along when it is MINE. I worked for it. I did what ever I had to do to acquire it. I have to manage it and I have to deal with you if I rent it to you. You can call it anything you want to but it should be a violation of the constitution for anybody to tell me what I have to do with my property.

Here is the problem - it is not your apartment. It is the apartment that God allowed you to manage for Him. In the parable of the talents, the servant who buried his master's talents for safe keeping was at least honest - he didn't try to claim that he in fact, was the one who earned those talents and he could do whatever he wanted with them. Many conservatives harbor a strange combination of strong faith in God and a strong faith that they have earned the right to horde as much money and goods as they possibly can because they have busted their butt to earn it! And how dare anyone get in the way of them and the fruits of their labor. This idea seems foreign when you realize that all that stuff was given to you to manage by God with the idea that you can use it to advance the Kingdom and participate in the sanctifying work Christ is doing in your heart by caring for those in need.

Also, it is helpful to realize that most people - from the homeless to the rich work hard; only some profit from it. If you are one of the few who does, you are blessed with more to give away.

 

[aspen]

"But homosexuals have the same rights according to the Constitution as all American citizens - which means no one can violate their rights." - aspen

I did not make the statement above

-- Here we go again.

Please tell me - specifically - which rights guaranteed under the Constitution as per the United States Supreme Court are currently being held back from homosexuals?

None. Homosexuals have the same rights as all American citizens. The problem is not getting more rights it is making sure that other people are not allowed to discriminate against them because of their behavior. Homosexuals should not be denied basic needs, police protection, employment and job security, access to medical records or medical care (emergency care has been denied to homosexuals because of the fear of AIDS), or housing. I am also in favor of domestic partner laws that would allow partners to build financial security together and access to a partner's employment benefits. De-criminalization of homosexual behavior - just like the de-criminalization of adultery needs to happen in all 50 states, as well.

The problem with asking what rights are denied to homosexuals is that it does not address the problem - just like blacks in the South who faced prejudice; laws are not being enforced equally for all people.

 

[Foreigner]

None. Homosexuals have the same rights as all American citizens. The problem is not getting more rights it is making sure that other people are not allowed to discriminate against them because of their behavior. Homosexuals should not be denied basic needs, police protection, employment and job security, access to medical records or medical care (emergency care has been denied to homosexuals because of the fear of AIDS), or housing. I am also in favor of domestic partner laws that would allow partners to build financial security together and access to a partner's employment benefits. De-criminalization of homosexual behavior - just like the de-criminalization of adultery needs to happen in all 50 states, as well.


The problem with asking what rights are denied to homosexuals is that it does not address the problem - just like blacks in the South who faced prejudice; laws are not being enforced equally for all people.

So, if the answer is "none" then there really isn't a problem. That is what they tell Christians all the time when they point out how they are prejudiced against.
After that it becomes more of a 'want' list.

 

[aspen]

So, if the answer is "none" then there really isn't a problem. That is what they tell Christians all the time when they point out how they are prejudiced against.
After that it becomes more of a 'want' list.

Ah - so I see you stopped reading my post after the word "none".


According to white people in the South during the Jim Crowe era there wasn't a problem either.

 

[Foreigner]

Nope. I read the whole post.
But since homosexuals are already "not be denied basic needs, police protection, employment and job security" etc. etc. etc. there was little point in commenting on it.


And since the Jim Crow law comment applies more to you and how you feel about Christian persecution I was feeling nice by not calling you out on it.

 

[religusnut]

Here is the problem - it is not your apartment. It is the apartment that God allowed you to manage for Him. In the parable of the talents, the servant who buried his master's talents for safe keeping was at least honest - he didn't try to claim that he in fact, was the one who earned those talents and he could do whatever he wanted with them. Many conservatives harbor a strange combination of strong faith in God and a strong faith that they have earned the right to horde as much money and goods as they possibly can because they have busted their butt to earn it! And how dare anyone get in the way of them and the fruits of their labor. This idea seems foreign when you realize that all that stuff was given to you to manage by God with the idea that you can use it to advance the Kingdom and participate in the sanctifying work Christ is doing in your heart by caring for those in need.

Also, it is helpful to realize that most people - from the homeless to the rich work hard; only some profit from it. If you are one of the few who does, you are blessed with more to give away.

Ok if it is God's apartment and the Holy Spirit did not lead me to rent it to a certain person and then the courts force me to then the courts have infringed on my rights to religious freedom. If I were not a believer I should have the right to rent my apartment as I saw fit.

As a believer if I choose to not rent to a homosexual how can you say that I am out of the will of God by not doing so. I might now want that spirit of perversion on my property. You will fight to support this lifestyle to the death. You must be a homosexual.

One other reason to look at a fence separating certain things. Before you go tear it down there might be a bull on the other side.

 

[Foreigner]

"Ok if it is God's apartment and the Holy Spirit did not lead me to rent it to a certain person and then the courts force me to then the courts have infringed on my rights to religious freedom." - aspen

-- But as you said, it is that "certain person's" right to rent it so their rights come before the Christian's.
So what are you complainting about?



"As a believer if I choose to not rent to a homosexual how can you say that I am out of the will of God by not doing so. I might now want that spirit of perversion on my property. You will fight to support this lifestyle to the death. You must be a homosexual." - aspen

-- And with that sily tripe I see you really have nothing further to add.
Personally I noticed that was the case several days ago.

 

[religusnut]

Renting to a homosexual says that you are in approval. I would not rent to a homosexual just like I would not rent to a prostitute or a drug dealer or a child molester.............

The Bible teaches us to not even give an appearance of evil.