Christian "gay Bashing"

[aspen]

I know this is always a highly debated topic, usually it heats up to angry debate, which is a shame I think, since this is a Christian forum. There are people saying judge, others don't judge, some people saying denounce them, others saying leave them alone. But what does the Bible say?

[9] I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— [10] not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [11] But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? [13] God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV)

I think this is quite clear! Homosexual people already know that Christians regard their lifestyles as sinful, so how does constantly fighting with them show them God's love, which might encourage them to listen more? To them we become nothing more than annoying hypocrites, which will drive them to despise us and God. We need to be there, lovingly for them, should they wish to know God more, which could lead them out of their sin.

But gay people in the Church?? This is wrong, it is more than wrong, it is saying we know better than God what is right and wrong. If there is a practicing homosexual within the Church then they need to repent and stop their behavior, or get out. That sounds unkind, but it is what the Bible says. We are to only hold people of the world to worldly standards, but judge people of the Church by Christian standards. It is the same for any immoral behavior yes? If a pastor or member was cheating on their spouse, they should be told to stop and repent, or leave.
Of course as Christians we need to strive to be loving to everyone, but no where in the bible does Christian = pushover. If we do not stand up for God and Godly standards, especially within the church, it will become more and more corrupt. We see in so many of the 'christian cults' that it only took 1 man thinking he knew better than God, that his views were more accurate than Gods, to lead so many people astray.

God's ways are so much better than our own, and Paul clearly says 'judge immorality within the church but not outside the church'. There is so much sin within the world that is labeled OK by the world, and Christians need to be beacons to them; of truth and love and repentance. We cannot do that if we declare war on them...it starts in our homes and in our churches and with Gods grace and the Holy Spirit then we can step out in friendship to those who are so lost.

Amen.

 

[Anastacia]

So......What if??

...we are missing the forest for the trees? What if making an issue out of homosexuality is actually diverting us from our primary purpose - to love others unconditionally?

...homosexuality isn't catching?

...the world is watching how we are treating each other and concluding that there is more love and acceptance outside of Christianity than within?

...when condemn homosexuality primarily because it is emotionally rewarding? After all we (heterosexuals) are not tempted by the behavior.....

...our ability to recognize personal sin in others is only possible in order to allow us to see our own sins to assist God's sanctification of our hearts?

...the issue of homosexuality is merely a test to see if Christians will continue to love people who are different from us, despite our feelings associated with cognitive dissidence?

...the scriptures are inspired (which is not synonymous with inerrancy, btw) but, like the sabbath, made for us, rather than us for the scriptures?

...same sex attraction is not a moral issue, but a result of our polluted environment? - we have lots of hormones swirling around in our water and according to scientists, boys born today have, on average, softer features compared to boys born 50 - 100 years ago - the fact is, we just do not know.

...Paul's condemnation of homosexuality in the NT, which is defined as sexual relationships between boys and their male teachers in exchange for education, was merely one example of 'worldliness'. If Paul were talking to us about our worldliness he might mention - consumerism, slave labor (children, illegal aliens), addictions (drugs, alcohol, pornography).

...homosexuals already know that Evangelicals believe they are breaking the rules of the Bible?

...the sin of Sodom really was the sin of not being hospitable to strangers? How many of us would be sodomites?

...standing up for Jesus; by picketing funerals, abortion clinics, and sacrificing people's God-given faith for the purpose of promoting our own understanding of the scriptures is not an effective means of witnessing God's love, but is just mean?

...we are saved by Grace, not a 'correct' understanding of doctrine?

...Jesus came to free us from legalism and blindness through radical love for Him and one another?

...our attempts to 'defend the Bible' and 'stand up for Jesus' is simply a self-serving way to manage our own anxiety?

...we considered consumerism a sin and confronted each other for engaging in the behavior as frequently as we confront homosexual behavior? Could you give up buying more than you need to actually live, if your community believed God required it? Or would you do it simply to make your peers feel better, even if you knew they could not possible understand your perspective and were basing their judgment of your behavior on their own interpretation of scripture? How much harder would it be to give up your sexuality?

...homosexuals within the church are simply people who are tired of sacrificing a core drive within themselves for the sole purpose of helping the rest of us feel less anxious about our narrow understanding of the Bible?

...we if we actually emphasized the "loving the sinner" part of "we are called to love the sinner not the sin", rather than using the phrase to justify being mean to one another?

...we have been doing this Christian reject thing all wrong?

I would like to comment on something you said here, I highlighted it in red. I have heard many people who defend homosexuality say that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was really only that they just weren't hospitable to strangers.
Let Jude 1:7 help clear up any doubts someone may have concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, that it wasn't merely that they just were not being warm and friendly to their stranger guests.


Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Rach1370]

I would like to comment on something you said here, I highlighted it in red. I have heard many people who defend homosexuality say that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was really only that they just weren't hospitable to strangers.
Let Jude 1:7 help clear up any doubts someone may have concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, that it wasn't merely that they just were not being warm and friendly to their stranger guests.


Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Oh...I so totally agree!! Seriously?? People think it was them not being hospitable? That would have been preferable I think...leave the visitors alone!! These people were attempting to gang rape these 'visitors'. Not only that, but this society was so corrupt that the men brought their sons to the pack rape....this was an evil, messed up, perverted, immoral society. Lots daughters, brought up within this society, felt it ok to get their father drunk and use him as a stud. MESSED UP!

 

[aspen]

I would like to comment on something you said here, I highlighted it in red. I have heard many people who defend homosexuality say that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was really only that they just weren't hospitable to strangers.
Let Jude 1:7 help clear up any doubts someone may have concerning Sodom and Gomorrah, that it wasn't merely that they just were not being warm and friendly to their stranger guests.


Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

I really like how the Bible verses are included in a bubble. I see what you mean, Anastacia - it was only a 'what if' and I believe gang rape also qualifies as a sexual perversion.

 

[Anastacia]

Oh...I so totally agree!! Seriously?? People think it was them not being hospitable? That would have been preferable I think...leave the visitors alone!! These people were attempting to gang rape these 'visitors'. Not only that, but this society was so corrupt that the men brought their sons to the pack rape....this was an evil, messed up, perverted, immoral society. Lots daughters, brought up within this society, felt it ok to get their father drunk and use him as a stud. MESSED UP!

Seriously! I know....if it weren't so against the scriptures, it would be almost laughable.

Very strong point you make about Lot's daughters being brought up in that society.

I really like how the Bible verses are included in a bubble. I see what you mean, Anastacia - it was only a 'what if' and I believe gang rape also qualifies as a sexual perversion.

Yeah, I really like that too how the Bible verses are included in a bubble. Wish it were the NIV version though. The ESV was translated by the reformed group. I'm just really sensitive to the spirit of Calvinsim.

I'm so glad you see what I mean, though, about the not being hospitable. I really have debated others who really tried to convince me that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was a sin we all might do---not be friendly and kind enough to strangers visiting.

I think it is interesting to note that Lot would of let these men have sex with his daughters---at least it would be natural sex.

 

[Xanderoc]

Actually, this story is about Jesus' justice and His mercy. If you are not acknowledging the women's sin, which was real - she was deserving of death, even if the people who were trying to stone her could not prove it - you are missing Christ's mercy.
Peace

That is your interpretation of the story.

 

[aspen]

That is your interpretation of the story.

Do you see a problem with the interpretation?

 

[[email protected]]

If I am christian and own an apartment which I rent out, should I not be allowed to decide who I will rent it to? If two homos wanted to rent it, I would say no. If two drug addicts wanted to rent it I would say no. If a paeodophile wanted to rent it I would say no.

It is not likely that you would know if someone was a criminal or pedophile unless they were forced under law to tell you, which brings up an important point - both activities are illegal and a detriment to society. Also, both activities are crimes - unlike homosexuality. So, why would you break the law and refuse to rent to homosexuals? Do homosexual not have the right to have a roof over their heads?

Discrimination is a way of life. We discriminate at to which school our children will attend. We discriminate as to which church we will attend. We discriminate as to which career we pursue. We discirminate as to which TV programmes we watch.

I have no problem employing a discriminating mind when it comes to deciding between objects or ideas or other inanimate things. I do have a problem with excluding people who have not committed a crime. All the same reasonings some use to discriminate against black people are used to discriminate against homosexuals - I think that is eye-opening. And before you think that homosexuality is different because it is a moral issue - people who opposed equality for black people made it into a moral issue as well - the mark of Cain.

Discrimination allows us to make choices that comply with our world view and religious beliefs. Homosexuality is no different. You either believe it is right or wrong and you discriminate accordingly in your response to it.

I believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe people whose sin is visible to others have the same rights as people who engage in hidden sin. Jesus didn't discriminate against people. He discriminated against oppression.

To say you cannot discriminate against a person and his homosexua;ity is to say you are not allowed to exercise your conscience.


You can discriminate against things and ideas - not people.
[font="'Arial Narrow"]
[/font]

"You can discriminate against things and ideas - not people."

Unless those people are Christians, then the season is open.

If love were truly the goal and object, then why are those who affirm religious living vilified?
Why are their beliefs mocked and discredited?
It is because love and understanding, with regard to acceptance of the homosexual life style, are nothing more than a tissue of lies employed to cloak deep hatred of God and disrespect of His people.
The notion that one cannot state that homosexuality is a sin, that God hates it, and that it is a thing that should be repented of ..... is blasphemed and belittled.

It doesn't matter that its the truth.
Our hedonistic society embraces all forms of sin and debauchery in the name of love.

In doing so, it perverts and prostitutes the very word 'love'.

I work in a local college.
During a recent luncheon I became involved in a discussion with an instructor who taught a class on human sexuality.
He complained that the college fire wall prevented students from studying ("studying"?), porn sites as part of class research.

I asked him how he justified sexual aberration as a subject of formal study and he gave me a long winded excuse.
I then posed a different question. If his course was on human sexuality, did he also teach the benefits of abstinance and celebacy?
The answer was mockery and laughter.

Apparently he was a charter member of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc.

 

[aspen]

"You can discriminate against things and ideas - not people."

Unless those people are Christians, then the season is open.

If love were truly the goal and object, then why are those who affirm religious living vilified?
Why are their beliefs mocked and discredited?
It is because love and understanding, with regard to acceptance of the homosexual life style, are nothing more than a tissue of lies employed to cloak deep hatred of God and disrespect of His people.
The notion that one cannot state that homosexuality is a sin, that God hates it, and that it is a thing that should be repented of ..... is blasphemed and belittled.

It doesn't matter that its the truth.
Our hedonistic society embraces all forms of sin and debauchery in the name of love.

In doing so, it perverts and prostitutes the very word 'love'.

I work in a local college.
During a recent luncheon I became involved in a discussion with an instructor who taught a class on human sexuality.
He complained that the college fire wall prevented students from studying ("studying"?), porn sites as part of class research.

I asked him how he justified sexual aberration as a subject of formal study and he gave me a long winded excuse.
I then posed a different question. If his course was on human sexuality, did he also teach the benefits of abstinance and celebacy?
The answer was mockery and laughter.

Apparently he was a charter member of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc.

No wonder you are so upset! You believe the world should follow your theology - protecting Christian rights without notice of anyone who is not Christian, Christ didn't preach this idea. Peter who have laughed if you came to him and complained that the Jews and the Romans should be looking out for Christian rights,,,,,,

Boy, I am sure glad I was born when I was because this modernistic thinking is all about personal loss....what am I losing to the 'others' today? It is a message of loss and sorrow you are preaching, not freedom and love.

 

[religusnut]

No wonder you are so upset! You believe the world should follow your theology - protecting Christian rights without notice of anyone who is not Christian, Christ didn't preach this idea. Peter who have laughed if you came to him and complained that the Jews and the Romans should be looking out for Christian rights,,,,,,

Boy, I am sure glad I was born when I was because this modernistic thinking is all about personal loss....what am I losing to the 'others' today? It is a message of loss and sorrow you are preaching, not freedom and love.

I will give you credit for one thing Aspen, you definitely are blind to the homosexual agenda and what it is trying to do to Christianity. As I have said on other issues you posted on. You are in many ways clueless when it comes to many things.

 

[marksman]

You know, comparing homosexuality to alcoholism or kleptomania is not a fair comparison. I think it most resembles left-handedness. There is no gene for left-handedness - it is not a behavioral tendency, but it is a tendency that is difficult to overcome. In fact, most left-handed people who were forced by the Catholic Church to switch hands, end up switching back as adults. It is not willfully chosen or likely to change.

I can assure you aspen, speaking as a left hander that homosexuality bears no resemblance to being left handed. Homosexuality is a choice. Being left handed is not.

This thing of "genetics" and homosexuals is another interesting thing. Some scientist say that about anything you can name is genetic. Those that study epigenetics say that our genes are plastic meaning that they change as our patterns of thinking change.

Yeah that's right. The latest gene is an alchoholic one. Obviously it likes to drown its sorrows.

 

[marksman]

It is not likely that you would know if someone was a criminal or pedophile unless they were forced under law to tell you, which brings up an important point - both activities are illegal and a detriment to society. Also, both activities are crimes - unlike homosexuality. So, why would you break the law and refuse to rent to homosexuals? Do homosexual not have the right to have a roof over their heads?

I am sorrry aspen but I consider splitting hairs a waste of time. This debate is not about what is legal or illegal activity, it is about discrimination and rights. Freedom of religion and religious belief came hundreds of years before homosexual rights. The fact that I am not allowed to exercise that right because some homosexual wants his own way is discrimination.

Until you can prove your not stopping me exercising my constitutional rights, I have the right to discriminate in favour of my religious beliefs and no homosexual has the right to say I can't.

 

[aspen]

I can assure you aspen, speaking as a left hander that homosexuality bears no resemblance to being left handed. Homosexuality is a choice. Being left handed is not.



Yeah that's right. The latest gene is an alchoholic one. Obviously it likes to drown its sorrows.

I am left handed, as well, but I didn't even realize writing with my left hand was an option until I was in second grade because I was forced to write with my right hand - not really forced, but encouraged - and when my writing was slow and messy, my teachers would try harder to get me to write better. My second grade teacher was the first to suggest switching hands - it was an amazing discovery. I can no longer write with my right hand at all, Based on my experience, I think homosexuality is a similar process.

Like a homosexual, I claim to have always been left handed, yet discovered it at a later time. I am glad handedness is not as basic as sexuality and I am also glad that despite the Catholic churches claims, left-handedness is not a sin.

I think alcohol changes the brain - it is not so much genetic as it is a result of brain injury that sets up a rewards system with alcohol.

I am sorrry aspen but I consider splitting hairs a waste of time. This debate is not about what is legal or illegal activity, it is about discrimination and rights. Freedom of religion and religious belief came hundreds of years before homosexual rights. The fact that I am not allowed to exercise that right because some homosexual wants his own way is discrimination.

Until you can prove your not stopping me exercising my constitutional rights, I have the right to discriminate in favour of my religious beliefs and no homosexual has the right to say I can't.

Apparently, some hairs are the size of redwoods. Civil rights also came hundreds of years after freedom of religion - so what? We are slow learners - God can contest to that fact.

You have the right to your religious opinion, as long as it does not deny any other American's civil rights. Homosexual American's should not be denied housing, employment, medical excess, or any other right that is shared by heterosexual Americans.

 

[marksman]

You have the right to your religious opinion, as long as it does not deny any other American's civil rights. Homosexual American's should not be denied housing, employment, medical excess, or any other right that is shared by heterosexual Americans.

But it is OK if homos deprive me of my rights?

 

[aspen]

But it is OK if homos deprive me of my rights?

Of course not. What right have you been deprived of, lately? He you been denied a job, housing, or hospital record access because of being heterosexual?

 

[religusnut]

I am left handed, as well, but I didn't even realize writing with my left hand was an option until I was in second grade because I was forced to write with my right hand - not really forced, but encouraged - and when my writing was slow and messy, my teachers would try harder to get me to write better. My second grade teacher was the first to suggest switching hands - it was an amazing discovery. I can no longer write with my right hand at all, Based on my experience, I think homosexuality is a similar process.

Like a homosexual, I claim to have always been left handed, yet discovered it at a later time. I am glad handedness is not as basic as sexuality and I am also glad that despite the Catholic churches claims, left-handedness is not a sin.

I think alcohol changes the brain - it is not so much genetic as it is a result of brain injury that sets up a rewards system with alcohol.







Apparently, some hairs are the size of redwoods. Civil rights also came hundreds of years after freedom of religion - so what? We are slow learners - God can contest to that fact.

You have the right to your religious opinion, as long as it does not deny any other American's civil rights. Homosexual American's should not be denied housing, employment, medical excess, or any other right that is shared by heterosexual Americans.

And of course in your opinion their rights trump the rights of those that own property or have Christian beliefs. As long as there are groups that are treated as a protected class of citizens there will always be a loss of some-body's rights. In the eyes of a liberal it just does not need to be a homosexual, black, or abortionist. The rights of those protected classes of people trumps the rights of any other group.

You know, comparing homosexuality to alcoholism or kleptomania is not a fair comparison. I think it most resembles left-handedness. There is no gene for left-handedness - it is not a behavioral tendency, but it is a tendency that is difficult to overcome. In fact, most left-handed people who were forced by the Catholic Church to switch hands, end up switching back as adults. It is not willfully chosen or likely to change.

Being left handed is not a sin. Being homosexual is. Being around left handed people does not cause problems. Being around homosexuals always causes issues. The fact that they are so openly accepted and that they are so out in the open is a recruiting thing for them to lure more children into their perverted lifestyle. Like I said earlier in this thread some where many pages ago they should be institutionalized instead of being revered. They are terribly sick demonized people.

 

[Duckybill]

Yes , that whole situation is horrifying to me. I didn't mention it earlier , but it has always bothered me that Lot (seemingly easily) offered up his daughter. I know I could never do that to my daughter. I would fight them to my death if required.

It certainly shows the perversion of the world. Is it better now? I guess it depends on where we live. And to think that God had already destroyed all but 8 by the Flood because of wickedness.

I should also mention that it has always creeped me out to picture the gang of male perverts outside Lot's door. I am not easily disturbed, but that has always affected me. They were utter perverts. Some of our prisons have similar gangs.

Our society should not encourage perversion of any kind.

Homosexuality is not natural. It would sicken me to see men kissing each other.

 

[aspen]

And of course in your opinion their rights trump the rights of those that own property or have Christian beliefs. As long as there are groups that are treated as a protected class of citizens there will always be a loss of some-body's rights.


So, what rights have you had to sacrifice so far for homosexuals?


In the eyes of a liberal it just does not need to be a homosexual, black, or abortionist. The rights of those protected classes of people trumps the rights of any other group.


Like?? Are you sure you are not just mad that our society no longer tolerates public violence or open expression of disgust and mockery towards certain groups? Jim Crowe supporters complained about the same thing. Tough. Safety trumps your comfort level or need to assert your ego.

Being left handed is not a sin.


History contradicts you. Left handedness was considered a sin by Christians for centuries - God's people are aways on His right side. Sounds inconsequential now, but it wasn't to left handed people during that time period.


Being homosexual is.


Yep - just like greed, which is not only legal, but the foundation of our economy.


Being around left handed people does not cause problems.


Not for right handed people!! But it wasn't a very good life for left handed people.....


Being around homosexuals always causes issues. The fact that they are so openly accepted and that they are so out in the open is a recruiting thing for them to lure more children into their perverted lifestyle.


Seriously??? I have lived in SF and Eugene Or for over 25 years - and I have never met a homosexual that was recruited. Show me 1 scientific journal article supporting this fallacy - heck, I would be interested in one testimony from a homosexual that believed he was recruited as a child.



Like I said earlier in this thread some where many pages ago they should be institutionalized instead of being revered. They are terribly sick demonized people.


Haha...I certainly agree they are demonized - by people who hold them to different standards than all other sinners. And you claim to be some sort of a counselor? Incredible.....

 

[Duckybill]

Christians don't have "rights". And calling SIN SIN is Biblical.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[aspen]

Christians don't have "rights".

You have a pretty low view of humanity. Humans were created good. Besides, American citizens do have rights.

And calling SIN SIN is Biblical.

Everyone in this discussion believes homosexuality is a sin. So we are all calling SIN SIN......now what? Are we supposed to condemn every sinner that we meet?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Yep.....