Combining Patriotism With Christianity

[aspen]

My parents grew up in the 40's and 50's and they cannot separate patriotism from Christianity. Growing up in the 70's and 80's myself, I always thought this idea to be strange so I did a bit of research. What I found is that Billy Graham was responsible for demonizing Communism and marrying Christianity with American Nationalism during the 50's. The interesting part is that the message at the time was a strong message - one that most Americans could really buy into, but as time past, many people in my parent's generation stop going to church because, in their minds being a Christian means the same thing as being patriotic - and the best way to be patriotic, according to my parents is to watch FOX news because "they don't focus on what America does wrong all the time, just what we need to do to get back to where we were in the 50's (voting out the liberals)"

So - if we go back farther in history - are there any other leaders that combined patriotism and Christianity as strongly as Billy Graham did in the 50's? Also, is this a positive, negative or not a big deal either way for Christianity?

 

[deprofundis]

I've personally never personally seen the two as connected. Or, at least, I've never seen my understanding of Christianity connected to patriotism. If anything, too much patriotism could come dangerously close to the worship of a false idol. Pragmatically, I think that you're right, and it did stop a lot of people from attending Church; I even think it might dissuade people from (openly?) being Christian. As you say, there are the people who don't feel the need to go to Church because they feel patriotism is so tied to religion that being patriotic (in whatever way they see fit) fills the same need, and, on top of that, I think saw the two as so connected that supporting whatever America did wasn't just the patriotic thing to do, it was the Christian thing to do, which could lead one very far astray, I fear.

The other side of the coin is there, too, though; I think the connection we have here between Christianity and patriotism alienates a lot of liberals from the faith. I know when I was younger (and, accordingly, possessed of the unique mix of bitter cynicism and idealistic naïveté only found in the young), I went through a phase where I rejected Christianity, in part because of the actions taken in its name and associated with it. It took me a lot of soul-searching and some intense spiritual experiences before I felt comfortable calling myself a Christian again. I don't think I ever stopped believing, deep down, but I spent a long time trying to tell myself I didn't, and it took personal revelations and encounters with different views of Christianity to make me comfortable with my own beliefs. I know a lot of people whose personal values closely echo the teachings of Christ, but they're die-hard atheists or agnostics, because the only kind of Christianity they've seen has as much political rhetoric and hatemongering as it has citation of the scripture, if not more.

I don't have a problem with what other people believe, and there's certainly nothing wrong with being a patriotic Christian, but I worry for the souls that may be misled out of nothing more than the fact that the only way they've ever truly experienced his word is in the form of support for political arguments they don't believe. I remember a friend of mine, who had been a dedicated atheist, being shocked when she read the Sermon on the Mount for a school project. I remember her telling me, as though it was secret and forgotten knowledge, that Christ said to "love your enemies." The novelty of what seems an integral part of the philosophy might have been funny, if it hadn't been so sad; she'd been raised to believe that hatred and vengefulness were essential parts of Christianity.

 

[[email protected]]

My parents grew up in the 40's and 50's and they cannot separate patriotism from Christianity. Growing up in the 70's and 80's myself, I always thought this idea to be strange so I did a bit of research. What I found is that Billy Graham was responsible for demonizing Communism and marrying Christianity with American Nationalism during the 50's. The interesting part is that the message at the time was a strong message - one that most Americans could really buy into, but as time past, many people in my parent's generation stop going to church because, in their minds being a Christian means the same thing as being patriotic - and the best way to be patriotic, according to my parents is to watch FOX news because "they don't focus on what America does wrong all the time, just what we need to do to get back to where we were in the 50's (voting out the liberals)"

So - if we go back farther in history - are there any other leaders that combined patriotism and Christianity as strongly as Billy Graham did in the 50's? Also, is this a positive, negative or not a big deal either way for Christianity?

The greatest revival in recent history was in the latter 60's and early 70's and it had nothing to do with Billy Graham.
It was entirely the work of the Holy Spirit. Thousands of men and women participated and acted as leaders in those days and thousands of religious leaders opposed it.

It is inaccurate and misleading to suppose that Billy Graham was responsible for it.
It was the hand of God. Nothing less.

Billy Graham may indeed have had an effect on your parents, but he had little effect on the rest of the generation.
Your research results are skewed.
My folks grew up about ten years earlier than yours; 1930's - 1940's.

Adolph Hitler and Franklin D. Roosevelt had a severe impact upon my parents generation; Tom Brokaw calls them the Greatest Generation.
Most secular sources as well as living testimony of folks who lived those days bear it out.
The USA was in immense and immediate danger from its enemies. Prayer and religious observance was part of the united effort to combat our enemies.
Historical references also indicate that during the darkest days of Hitler's invasion of Russia, Joseph Stalin allowed a limited amount of prayer to be offered on behalf of the Soviet Union.

When things go sour, men tend to call out to God or mommy or whoever they think can help them.
Religious observance WAS patriotism in that it was as much of a tool for victory as guns and bombs.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s.
The factors that affected my generation was the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy and Rev Martin Luther King.
The Viet Nam war was a BIG factor.
Government lies and cover ups about the assassantions, the war and the Nixon Watergate affair ultimately widened a credibility gap between what the government told us and what the American public believed.

The war against Communism was real, but our motives and methods were not.
I personally had the opportunity to spend an evening eating and drinking with Communist guerilla fighters in those days.
They were as much in the dark about our motives as we were.
Soldiers in the front lines are rarely afforded a look at the big picture, which is why our boys fight abroad today.
They know nothing and believe less about our governments' true motives in the middle east.

I also had the opportunity to meet and talk with men who had done God's work in Communist lands and had paid a terrible price for their devotion.
One in particular had suffered much torture at their hands.
This is first hand knowledge, not something I read in a book saw on TV or learned on the internet.

Communists hate Christians and Jews.
Communists kill, torture, and imprison those who do not accept their atheist agenda, including Christians who do nothing more severe than deliver Bibles to their brothers and sisters (I met a Bible smuggler once too - he had a lot of interesting stories to tell) .

There is a good reason why Communists have been vilified.
Their economic system is corrupt, they are immoral and their system is based upon lies and deception.
Those who promote the Communist agenda have believed a lie or are base liars themselves.

 

[TexUs]

Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.


That's really all it comes down to. We are to support our government as long as it doesn't violate Biblical principles- we see this in Romans 13. This does not also mean government is a tool for pushing the gospel... Did Christ do that on earth? No. He was the example of love to others... Using government to legislate homosexuality, abortion, etc is not the proper way to go about it. Note, I disagree with all of this, but I don't see forcing a belief is a method Christ used.

I had a conversation last week with a military person that professes to be a Christian yet regulated Christianity to a "personal" thing but patriotism is something you should do no matter what since you live in this nation.
THAT is putting country over God and is the definition of idolatry.




I do think the joining of America=Christianity is a negative thing for Christianity because America is so far off base it's not even funny.
I'll take a page from CS Lewis here.
The word "gentlemen" used to mean a guy with a coat of arms that owned land. THAT'S IT.
The thing is, a gentlemen was usually nice and polite, and eventually the term became corrupted into what we have today, a "nice guy". There was absolutely no need to create a new term for this because they already had the world "polite", but the word "gentlemen" was corrupted and now the original meaning is lost unless you know what I've just stated.

So it is with "Christianity". The term has been wholly corrupted and nobody [the world] really knows what it means anymore. The joining of America to Christianity has spurred this along as well.

 

[deprofundis]

I also had the opportunity to meet and talk with men who had done God's work in Communist lands and had paid a terrible price for their devotion.
One in particular had suffered much torture at their hands.
This is first hand knowledge, not something I read in a book saw on TV or learned on the internet.

Which "communist" lands? In many, religion was closely connected with communist movements, like Liberation Theology in South America, for instance. In others, sadly, this was the case, either because of the oppressive methods of the so-called communists suppressing anyone who might challenge their authority (for example, the Soviet Union) or because the Church was tragically conflated with the old sources of oppression (such as during the Spanish Civil War). Either way, this isn't universal to communist thought, and especially not to the people who practice it. Try not to let a few "bad seeds" make you judge a whole lot of people wrongfully.

Communists hate Christians and Jews.
Communists kill, torture, and imprison those who do not accept their atheist agenda, including Christians who do nothing more severe than deliver Bibles to their brothers and sisters (I met a Bible smuggler once too - he had a lot of interesting stories to tell) .

Please avoid generalizations like this. I don't believe in the exploitation of workers, making profit off the suffering of others, and I do believe in sharing and community with my brothers and sisters, each giving what s/he can in exchange for what s/he needs. I don't hate Christians or Jews, I am a Christian and I know and love many Jews.

There is a good reason why Communists have been vilified.
Their economic system is corrupt, they are immoral and their system is based upon lies and deception.
Those who promote the Communist agenda have believed a lie or are base liars themselves.

What is corrupt about rewarding those who work instead of those who are born wealthy? What is corrupt about not letting one's people starve and freeze in the streets? What is corrupt about asking everyone to give what they can, and doing one's best to make sure everyone has what they need? Sure, in practice, any system can and probably will be corrupt, since there's a lot of corrupt people in this world, but communism, at the heart of its philosophy, is a mostly fair and inherently kind-hearted system. On what "lies and deceptions" is the system based? How are all communists immoral?
I mean no offense, but I think perhaps you're the one who's believed some lies; it sounds like your view of communism was shaped by the propaganda of your time, and the widespread misunderstandings brought about by supposedly communist nations whose rulers lived essentially no more in accordance with communist principles than they were with Christian teachings.

 

[aspen]

Which "communist" lands? In many, religion was closely connected with communist movements, like Liberation Theology in South America, for instance. In others, sadly, this was the case, either because of the oppressive methods of the so-called communists suppressing anyone who might challenge their authority (for example, the Soviet Union) or because the Church was tragically conflated with the old sources of oppression (such as during the Spanish Civil War). Either way, this isn't universal to communist thought, and especially not to the people who practice it. Try not to let a few "bad seeds" make you judge a whole lot of people wrongfully.


Please avoid generalizations like this. I don't believe in the exploitation of workers, making profit off the suffering of others, and I do believe in sharing and community with my brothers and sisters, each giving what s/he can in exchange for what s/he needs. I don't hate Christians or Jews, I am a Christian and I know and love many Jews.


What is corrupt about rewarding those who work instead of those who are born wealthy? What is corrupt about not letting one's people starve and freeze in the streets? What is corrupt about asking everyone to give what they can, and doing one's best to make sure everyone has what they need? Sure, in practice, any system can and probably will be corrupt, since there's a lot of corrupt people in this world, but communism, at the heart of its philosophy, is a mostly fair and inherently kind-hearted system. On what "lies and deceptions" is the system based? How are all communists immoral?
I mean no offense, but I think perhaps you're the one who's believed some lies; it sounds like your view of communism was shaped by the propaganda of your time, and the widespread misunderstandings brought about by supposedly communist nations whose rulers lived essentially no more in accordance with communist principles than they were with Christian teachings.

I've seen good results from small groups that use communism. I mentioned before that Monasteries have been using it successfully for 1500 years.

 

[HammerStone]

A long time ago, the Christian and the American dream were intertwined. For a short while, this wasn't necessarily a bad thing in my view.

Anything that supplants God is not of God. That goes for any -ism that we could possibly name or not name. Patriotism can certainly take over Christianity; we see it all the time. It's nothing new under the sun.

With that said, the American Dream, aka Patriotism, has relatively quickly overtaken the Christ part. This left us with what we see today; those that hold on to the dream and then those that formed a counter-culture that arguably went even more wayward.

Communism specifically does not work, and history witnesses this time and time again. The problem I have with arguing that a small commune of monks or small village practices Communism is this does not show the systemic failure of Communism at the large level each and every time it has been implemented. Power always consolidates at one point, which is the tendency of arguably any government. Communism does seem to accelerate it, though. Communism has never been sustained because it's not possible. However, the major reason Christianity is indeed diametrically opposed to Communism is simple:

II Corinthians 6:24
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

The truth of the matter is that Communism appears to have traits of Christianity, but this is supplanted by the self interest of the commune or state. The believer is yoked right to the unbeliever. The state must be the most important thing in order for communism to work, religion does not matter and arguably the state has to assume the deity even more strongly than any ardent Patriotism in a Democratic or Capitalist society.

See Wikipedia, which makes the point well I think:

Pure communism, or the stage in history after socialism, refers to a classless, stateless society, one where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made in the best interests of the collective society with the interests of every member of society given equal weight in the practical decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life. Karl Marx, as well as some other communist philosophers, purposely never provided a detailed description as to how communism would function as a social system. In the Communist Manifesto, Marx lays out a 10-point plan advising the redistribution of land and production to begin the transition to communism.

There is no room for God in Communism.

 

[bud02]

A long time ago, the Christian and the American dream were intertwined. For a short while, this wasn't necessarily a bad thing in my view.

Anything that supplants God is not of God. That goes for any -ism that we could possibly name or not name. Patriotism can certainly take over Christianity; we see it all the time. It's nothing new under the sun.

With that said, the American Dream, aka Patriotism, has relatively quickly overtaken the Christ part. This left us with what we see today; those that hold on to the dream and then those that formed a counter-culture that arguably went even more wayward.

Communism specifically does not work, and history witnesses this time and time again. The problem I have with arguing that a small commune of monks or small village practices Communism is this does not show the systemic failure of Communism at the large level each and every time it has been implemented. Power always consolidates at one point, which is the tendency of arguably any government. Communism does seem to accelerate it, though. Communism has never been sustained because it's not possible. However, the major reason Christianity is indeed diametrically opposed to Communism is simple:

II Corinthians 6:24
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

The truth of the matter is that Communism appears to have traits of Christianity, but this is supplanted by the self interest of the commune or state. The believer is yoked right to the unbeliever. The state must be the most important thing in order for communism to work, religion does not matter and arguably the state has to assume the deity even more strongly than any ardent Patriotism in a Democratic or Capitalist society.

See Wikipedia, which makes the point well I think:



There is no room for God in Communism.

I like the 2 Corinthians quote.
In freedom we leave room for God to cause it to rain on both the rightest and unrighteous. Mt 5:45 Hosea 10:12-13

That's really all it comes down to. We are to support our government as long as it doesn't violate Biblical principles- we see this in Romans 13. This does not also mean government is a tool for pushing the gospel... Did Christ do that on earth? No. He was the example of love to others... Using government to legislate homosexuality, abortion, etc is not the proper way to go about it. Note, I disagree with all of this, but I don't see forcing a belief is a method Christ used.

Don't you think there's more to it than biblical principles? The Jews did the same. We need leaders that know the Lord and make decisions based on that relationship. We have at the wheel of this country blind guides, white washed tombs, have for a number of years now.

 

[TexUs]

Don't you think there's more to it than biblical principles? The Jews did the same. We need leaders that know the Lord and make decisions based on that relationship. We have at the wheel of this country blind guides, white washed tombs, have for a number of years now.

I'm big on the Sovereignty of God. I know that the clowns in office right now were put there by God for whatever his good long-term purpose is (to wake us up???).

Should we strive to elect Christian leaders? Yes. Absolutely.
Should our world view drive our politics? Yes.

We can like it or not but Nazi Germany was put there by God. What was the long term goal on that? Maybe we don't know, but some speculation might be it ushered in the rise of the USA as a power to bring evangelism to the world stage. I'm not God, I can only speculate.



I can apply my Biblical principles to our government. Is funding abortions wrong? Yes. Is spending exorbitant amounts of money wrong? Yes. etc, etc, etc.

 

[deprofundis]

Communism specifically does not work, and history witnesses this time and time again. The problem I have with arguing that a small commune of monks or small village practices Communism is this does not show the systemic failure of Communism at the large level each and every time it has been implemented. Power always consolidates at one point, which is the tendency of arguably any government. Communism does seem to accelerate it, though. Communism has never been sustained because it's not possible. However, the major reason Christianity is indeed diametrically opposed to Communism is simple:

Again, if you're referencing most large "communist" nations, you're referring to State Capitalism. Most times attempts at true communism have failed it is because they have been overrun by conquest from outside forces, although, as you say, it is true most of those are in small communities, and in larger groups, there are more wicked men who would abuse the system, any system, for their own gain.

The truth of the matter is that Communism appears to have traits of Christianity, but this is supplanted by the self interest of the commune or state. The believer is yoked right to the unbeliever. The state must be the most important thing in order for communism to work, religion does not matter and arguably the state has to assume the deity even more strongly than any ardent Patriotism in a Democratic or Capitalist society.

I think that's a false dichotomy, in a lot of ways. Firstly, in any state, there is immense self-interest towards the state, and I don't see how this is any more or less true in any statist system. The basis of the system is the survival of the state. Further, in capitalist systems, personal self-interest and corporate self-interest are encouraged, with society telling one not only to yoke oneself to the unbeliever, but to essentially become one oneself. Finally, the only way one is "yoked" to an unbeliever is to care for him or her, to provide necessary food, shelter, etc., which is in accordance with Christ's teachings.
In any case, to return to the point of statism, Capitalism requires a state significantly more than communism does, as it is capitalism which necessitates the reification of the Social into the Societal by requiring a regulatory third party. Communism doesn't need a state, and, in fact, specifically needs not to have one (as is stated in the quote you cite below), meaning there is no false idol of nation-state to be worshipped before God. The introduction to Anderson's Imagined Communities demonstrates how the nation, as an imaginary construct, is becoming a secular replacement for religion in society, as icons like the "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" are given a secular version of supernatural significance. The Nation is becoming a false idol that replaces God in the eyes of many.

See Wikipedia, which makes the point well I think:
. . .
There is no room for God in Communism.

I think you somewhat misinterpret the quote. I don't really see why making political/economic decisions so that they benefit one's community, and everyone in one's community, as opposed to one's personal interests, leaves no room for God. It doesn't mean to value the community over God, and, in fact, if love is the extent of the law, isn't love for one's community, at no benefit to oneself, a fine way to honor the Lord? Finally, I don't see how the opposite, making decisions for personal gain, leaves any more room for God. If you asked me whether selfishness and greed, the core values of pure capitalism, were more Godly than community and fairness, I know my decision would be easy to make. Simply put, making a profit will always involve some kind of deception or taking advantage of another, and I see a lot less room for God in a system based around that than I do in one based around sharing and helping one another. Any idea taken too far can be idolatry, and can take the place of the Lord in the eyes of fanatics, but a communist, or communist-esque philosophy, inspired by and to glorify God, seems to me one of the most just and Godly systems around.

 

[HammerStone]

Again, if you're referencing most large "communist" nations, you're referring to State Capitalism. Most times attempts at true communism have failed it is because they have been overrun by conquest from outside forces, although, as you say, it is true most of those are in small communities, and in larger groups, there are more wicked men who would abuse the system, any system, for their own gain.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I do agree about the numbers part of the equation, but I am also a man of the persuasion that sometimes what can sound like a great theory doesn't work in practice. I think "true communism" hasn't manifested because its not possible. When you're dealing with that many people, someone is going to manipulate the system. The system has a strong preponderance towards centralized power, which makes it right for the taking when man is in control.

Ironically I do find some common ground with your next quote. I think the tomb of the unknown soldier is an excellent point. Where is the line between patriotism and idolatry? I think that's a difficult question and one that would be answered differently by each person you ask. It's a "know-it-when-you-see-it" call. However, that is a creeping part of man experienced from the beginning. Like Ecclesiastes says, there's nothing new under the sun and that includes "idol creep." Anything can become an idol. We no longer (for the most part) run around worshiping little stone/wood statues, but the average American certainly borders on worshiping some form of material possession. We might not pray to it, but we'll pray about it more than anything or we'll be so reluctant to let it go. (I'll stand condemned at the front of that line.)

Jumping back to my though, let me place aside the state word for a moment; let's just use the root of the term itself. The focus of Communism is most certainly on the commune. To me that is an intense focus on a central entity. I look at it this way. With the communal system, the ultimate goal is to provide resources for the commune which are then dispersed to the participants. It sounds good to label what's discussed in the Bible as Communism, but it's Christism. The focus is Christ. Needs don't matter and those needs won't always be met by nice people. I'm not trying to argue that heaven is a democracy or that democracy/capitalism is the heavenly form of government. (I frankly believe it's the best we possess in a "Paineian" sense.) If anything, the heavenly court is quite the absolute dictatorship or monarchy.

With that said, I'm most satisfied with Capitalism because I'm not yoked to the nonbeliever. I'm not regulated to do this is the name of the community. Even with the evil (that will be in this world regardless of government type), if I have the willpower to resist the advances of the world, then I can be a believer. Communism forces the medley of beliefs to evaporate essentially because you're dealing with a commune that must meed the needs of a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Baha'ism, etc. It forces integration and some time of national religion must emerge otherwise you have fractures right under the surface.

Any system with God at the head would be a perfect system. In theory a monarchy would be awesome with a family like Noah's or perhaps an absolute dictatorship with an Elijah or Paul at the helm. The problem is our fallibility and therefore I'm going to go with the system that permits the most freedom.

 

[aspen]

A long time ago, the Christian and the American dream were intertwined. For a short while, this wasn't necessarily a bad thing in my view.

Anything that supplants God is not of God. That goes for any -ism that we could possibly name or not name. Patriotism can certainly take over Christianity; we see it all the time. It's nothing new under the sun.

With that said, the American Dream, aka Patriotism, has relatively quickly overtaken the Christ part. This left us with what we see today; those that hold on to the dream and then those that formed a counter-culture that arguably went even more wayward.

Communism specifically does not work, and history witnesses this time and time again. The problem I have with arguing that a small commune of monks or small village practices Communism is this does not show the systemic failure of Communism at the large level each and every time it has been implemented. Power always consolidates at one point, which is the tendency of arguably any government. Communism does seem to accelerate it, though. Communism has never been sustained because it's not possible. However, the major reason Christianity is indeed diametrically opposed to Communism is simple:



The truth of the matter is that Communism appears to have traits of Christianity, but this is supplanted by the self interest of the commune or state. The believer is yoked right to the unbeliever. The state must be the most important thing in order for communism to work, religion does not matter and arguably the state has to assume the deity even more strongly than any ardent Patriotism in a Democratic or Capitalist society.

See Wikipedia, which makes the point well I think:



There is no room for God in Communism.

I agree that the human condition does not allow for Communism on a large scale, but it does on a small scale. I guess the sad part for me is that capitalism is so pessimistic - the basis for this economic system is to allow people to follow their sinful natural as far as we can charge them to engage in it. Our Republic form of government and it's reliance on the super delegate system is tremendously dissatisfying - especially when you live in the wrong neighborhood. For example, I attended a democratic caucus during the Hilary / Obama / Edwards / Richardson primary. I was living in a rich neighborhood so only 5 people showed up to my table - we debated and chose Obama. The minute we decided to take the final vote an elderly couple sat down at the table and informed us that they were not going to vote for any black man, especially a lying muslim. Therefore, our table voted for Hilary Clinton based on ignorance and racism. Unfortunately, our votes simply do not count when crackpots and redistricting are introduced to the voting system.

So it is hard for me to criticize other forms of government when the system I have participated in for the last twenty years has let me down.

 

[deprofundis]

With that said, I'm most satisfied with Capitalism because I'm not yoked to the nonbeliever. I'm not regulated to do this is the name of the community. Even with the evil (that will be in this world regardless of government type), if I have the willpower to resist the advances of the world, then I can be a believer. Communism forces the medley of beliefs to evaporate essentially because you're dealing with a commune that must meed the needs of a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Baha'ism, etc. It forces integration and some time of national religion must emerge otherwise you have fractures right under the surface.

I don't see how communism denies spirituality of any sort, on conflates those of multiple sorts. A commune must meet the physical needs of each type of person, which are (save a few differences/dietary restrictions) essentially identical. The spiritual needs are personal and can be personal.
You are yoked to the unbeliever in any nation-state, however, insofar as you are in communism, by socio-economic factors. The quote to which you refer, though, in the Greek, uses the phrase "unequally (or unevenly) yoked," which is actually part of why I believe communism to be one of the systems in which people may best connect to Christ. In Capitalism, one is yoked to the unbeliever without any choice through socio-economic forces, and that relationship is unequal and often includes either the believer or unbeliever exploited by the other. In communism, the yoking must necessarily be equal and even for it to be truly communist.

Any system with God at the head would be a perfect system. In theory a monarchy would be awesome with a family like Noah's or perhaps an absolute dictatorship with an Elijah or Paul at the helm. The problem is our fallibility and therefore I'm going to go with the system that permits the most freedom.

In general, I agree, but I advocate communism for the same reason. When one cannot control the means of production, one can be and essentially is forced into a kind of slavery by those who do. Communism places no limit on political freedom (despite its false incarnations' actions), and gives every member of society (not just the rich) greater economic freedom.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't see how communism denies spirituality of any sort, on conflates those of multiple sorts. A commune must meet the physical needs of each type of person, which are (save a few differences/dietary restrictions) essentially identical. The spiritual needs are personal and can be personal.

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not"
- Jeremiah 5:21

Communism IS a denial of spirituality.

I KNOW people who have suffered for their spirituality at the hands of the Communists, IN PRISON.
You may have convinced yourself of a lie, but there are those who have suffered for their faith and I know them.
They bear the scars of their torment and their testimony tells the truth that the words posted here stink of lies and death.

A basic tenant of Communism, or so we have been informed, is class struggle.
The Bible says something similar; that the world and the spirit are fatally opposed to one another.
Communism is of the world. Christianity is of the spirit.

Anyone who claims Communism can partner with true spiritual faith is either a fool or a liar.

 

[deprofundis]

I KNOW people who have suffered for their spirituality at the hands of the Communists, IN PRISON.
You may have convinced yourself of a lie, but there are those who have suffered for their faith and I know them.
They bear the scars of their torment and their testimony tells the truth that the words posted here stink of lies and death.

You mentioned this before, and I asked you where it had occurred, to which you provided no answer. At the hands of which "communists" did they suffer? The Soviet Union? They weren't communists, they were state capitalists. The PRC? State capitalists. Secondly, just because some "communists" persecute the faithful doesn't mean that all communists do. The "Christians" behind the Spanish Inquisition tortured, imprisoned, and killed Christians for their faith, as have other "Christian" groups throughout history. It makes no sense to claim that any belief or ideology which has been (mis)used for evil can never be used for anything else.

A basic tenant of Communism, or so we have been informed, is class struggle.
The Bible says something similar; that the world and the spirit are fatally opposed to one another.
Communism is of the world. Christianity is of the spirit.

Capitalist democracy, monarchism, and all the other alternatives are no less "of the world" than communism is. I don't really see what you mean by this.

 

[[email protected]]

You mentioned this before, and I asked you where it had occurred, to which you provided no answer. At the hands of which "communists" did they suffer? The Soviet Union? They weren't communists, they were state capitalists. The PRC? State capitalists. Secondly, just because some "communists" persecute the faithful doesn't mean that all communists do. The "Christians" behind the Spanish Inquisition tortured, imprisoned, and killed Christians for their faith, as have other "Christian" groups throughout history. It makes no sense to claim that any belief or ideology which has been (mis)used for evil can never be used for anything else.

I don't have to reveal to you or any other Communist any of my personal knowledge regarding Communist torture and imprisonment.
People's lives are at stake and that goes beyond some conversation on the Internet.
It is obvious to the most casual observer that you are NOT concerned about that - only that your agenda is advanced.

Such things DO HAPPEN and it is a matter of historical fact.
That I KNOW people who suffered is a matter of personal fact and testimony.
That Communists and Communist sympathizers tend to suppress the truth is also a fact.

I served my country back in the day when we fought openly against Communism.
I suffered a permanent disability during my service, so I have no sympathy or regard for your offensive support for Reds.
That's all the personal info you're going to get.....as though any FACTS would matter to you.

You do yourself a disservice if you believe their lies.

Capitalist democracy, monarchism, and all the other alternatives are no less "of the world" than communism is. I don't really see what you mean by this.

Capitalists do not torture people for their religious beliefs.
They do not arrest people and put them in gulags for the sake of the gospel.

NOT SO WITH COMMUNISTS.
Murder, lies, thievery and imprisonment are the core expression of Communism; all types and all brands.
Once in power, the kidd gloves are removed and the world sees what they are made of.

I repeat. Anybody who believes Communist lies is either a fool or a liar themselves if not a traitorous dog altogether.

 

[deprofundis]

Such things DO HAPPEN and it is a matter of historical fact.
That I KNOW people who suffered is a matter of personal fact and testimony.
That Communists and Communist sympathizers tend to suppress the truth is also a fact.

Sure, but it's also a matter of historical fact that Christians have made other Christians suffer for their faith and beliefs. Does this mean that faith in Christ is evil and all who follow Him torture and murder Christians? Of course it doesn't, that would be ridiculous conclusion to draw. It means that evil people can take any idea, pervert it, and use it as an excuse to do evil things. The "communists" you mention guilty of these tortures and murders are wicked people who use sharing, equality, and other good, noble ideas as excuses for their evil acts. That doesn't make sharing evil, that doesn't make treating workers fairly evil. It makes evil people and evil deeds evil.

Capitalists do not torture people for their religious beliefs.
They do not arrest people and put them in gulags for the sake of the gospel.

What about fascist Italy, capitalist puritan states who executed "heretics" of different denominations, and capitalist states in the middle east and Balkans today? Tyranny and despotism can arise anywhere along the economic spectrum.

The rest of what you said is essentially just personal insults. If you could please refrain from this in the future, I'm here to have debates and discussions about ideas, not be verbally abused.

 

[[email protected]]

I think you somewhat misinterpret the quote.

Facts, testimony and historical references do not have any relevance to those whose purpose is to SUPPRESS the truth.

Lack of evidence isn't the issue here, its the suppression of it that is.

Suppression of the truth is the hallmark of Communism, which is why many Christians and Jews ultimately wind up in Communist prisons.

It's also why certain individuals cloak their arguments in lies and deception.

The rest of what you said is essentially just personal insults. If you could please refrain from this in the future, I'm here to have debates and discussions about ideas, not be verbally abused.

My intent is not to insult but to reveal lies and treachery.

The intent I discover is not a free exchange of ideas, but an effort to subvert them, suppress them and to twist the truth.

The revelation of a lie is not an insult to anyone - except he who tries to hide behind it and who attempts to use it to rob another man of his liberty.

 

[deprofundis]

The only person who has suppressed any facts here is you; I asked questions, you refused to answer them; I brought counter-examples, you ignored them. It's unfair to say I'm suppressing facts when I haven't denied or ignored any of the facts you've brought up (even the ones you've refused to back up), and brought up my own, which you have refused to address.

Also, I think you may have your terminology confused; helping one another and fair treatment of workers are the hallmarks of communism. Suppression of information is a hallmark of tyranny.

 

[[email protected]]

The only person who has suppressed any facts here is you; I asked questions, you refused to answer them; I brought counter-examples, you ignored them.

Asked and answered.
What you really want is my acceptance of your POV and you're not going to get it.

If you have a point to make, do it.

A bit of advice here.
In an educated democratic country the truth is generally more persuasive than lies and innuendo.

It's unfair to say I'm suppressing facts when I haven't denied or ignored any of the facts you've brought up (even the ones you've refused to back up), and brought up my own, which you have refused to address.

Not denied or ignored any facts I've presented?
Then why are you still whining about it?

Not fair to Communism? Too bad. Eat it.

Also, I think you may have your terminology confused; helping one another and fair treatment of workers are the hallmarks of communism. Suppression of information is a hallmark of tyranny.

I believe I wrote that already. In case you didn't get it I'm repeating.

Communism=tryanny

Cases in point are constant and consistant attacks against capitalism, democracy, Christianity and the statements made in fact and personal testimony.
Your refusal to admit to the truth of anything I've written is another example.

If you like Communism so much, move to China or Cuba.
It is neither wanted or needed here.