Confidence In The Flesh?

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Godssrvr

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It wasn't lying, stealing, drunkenness, coveting, taking the Lords name in vain, or any other such sins of the flesh that Paul had to repent of to be saved, he had to repent of his self righteous thinking! We cannot repent "of sins" to be saved because it's the same as being justified by the law, and God said that can't happen. Scripture teaches we are justified by faith alone (Romans 3:19-28).

If your confidence is in the flesh, thinking you repent "of your sins" of the flesh in order to justify yourself before God, you're either a deceived Christian, or still lost and have not "repented" towards faith in Christ. Paul thought himself to be righteous because he was following the law. This is exactly what the repent "of sins" gospel teaches, and exactly opposite of the testimony Paul gave of himself in coming to Christ. He didn't need to be more righteous, but needed to deny that he had any righteousness!

In the passage below, the apostle Paul recognizes it is his self righteousness that separates Him from God. He had to "change his mind" (repent) of the things he thought were gain to Him in the eyes of God. His trust needed to be in Christ rather than his own obedience to the law. He counted all gain as loss in order to "win Christ".

This recognition also allows us to "know Him". I believe in verse 10 Paul is teaching this continued understanding of receiving God's righteousness by faith is what allows him to experience Christ in his mortal life, "being made conformable unto His death". This repentance, or "change of mind", is what we need to continue in as we allow ourselves to be "transformed" by the renewing of our mind (Romans 12:1-2). We will always have sin in our flesh, and we will always need to remember we are justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, in order to allow Christ to live through us. Can we do that and at the same time teach people they need to repent "of sin" to be justified?

Please read and study the scripture, it's where God shows His truth rather than man's. I believe if you keep in mind "repent" in the Greek text means "a change of mind or thought" you will see in order to be justified before God, we have to change how we think about where we place our faith, not about a change of behavior, because God says it isn't possible for us to change for justification. Also see Romans 10:1-4.

Philippians 3:2-10

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 

bbyrd009

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we are contemplating this on another thread, the Stoic one, and it is kind of funny that Paul records no reference to fasting at all, i guess? hmm

sorry if that seems apropos of nothing lol, fasting is referring to a "fleshly discipline" here
 

bbyrd009

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Scripture teaches we are justified by faith alone
this strikes me as faith turned into belief, no action left in the verb, just believe hard enough and God will do the rest type stuff, wadr
no cost to be counted, no cross to be picked up, no following required, etc
 

Godssrvr

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this strikes me as faith turned into belief, no action left in the verb, just believe hard enough and God will do the rest type stuff

That is exactly what Paul is teaching in this passage in Philippians. Also in many other passages in his epistles. Justification has always been by faith alone. In this particular passage he is specifically using himself and "circumcision" or any other form of law keeping as an example to show there can be "no confidence in the flesh". All of our dependence for justification must be on Christ. This is not to say that we shouldn't allow Christ to live through us as we live in submission to Him, but it can't be depended on for "justification of life" (Romans 5:15-19).
 
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Godssrvr

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Other passages which support having "no confidence in the flesh".........

Romans 4:1-6
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 10:1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
 

Helen

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this strikes me as faith turned into belief, no action left in the verb, just believe hard enough and God will do the rest type stuff, wadr
no cost to be counted, no cross to be picked up, no following required, etc

I would love to pull your hair!! lol
Why do you always have to separate faith and action. o_O
Why do you always insist that if we do or have the one, it means that we don't have the other??????
As many times as you say this...I will keep saying , true believers have BOTH! Not either/or.

Just saying....and saying again. ;)
 

Godssrvr

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What "action" does anyone need to witness in a professing Christian for them to be justified before God? God is the "just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:26). If one thinks they must see action, aren't they making themselves the justifier? The "action" required to be justified before God is to believe on His Son. Period! To add to that is to add to the Word of God.
 

Windmillcharge

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What "action" does anyone need to witness in a professing Christian for them to be justified before God? God is the "just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:26). If one thinks they must see action, aren't they making themselves the justifier? The "action" required to be justified before God is to believe on His Son. Period! To add to that is to add to the Word of God.

The action is what Jesus commanded.
If we Love him, we will obey him.
What did he command, that we should love others as he loves us.
 

Godssrvr

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The action is what Jesus commanded.

If you consider the scripture in the OP, you will recognize how Paul was keeping commands, but that wasn't what saved him. It was only his trust in Christ. He had to lose all "confidence in the flesh" in order to "win Christ". Salvation and service cannot be combined else you create a false gospel. We're not justified by showing love. Showing love is a righteous act on our part which is impossible for us until we have first received the Holy Spirit, and then only if we "walk in the Spirit". (Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:10, Galatians 5:16-22).

The truth of the Word teaches faith alone for justification, and I have already quoted many passages to support that fact. One of the most important rules for understanding scripture is to let clear scripture trump unclear. God said we are justified by faith, without works. He made it pretty clear for us. Until we have been justified by faith, we don't have the capability of any righteousness. After we're saved, our righteousness comes through the "new man" which is a new creation "in Christ". We can do nothing in our flesh, or without Him.

John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 3:24-28
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 

bbyrd009

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well, i guess it depends upon one's definition of "faith," and i doubt we will resolve this ever-popular argument today.
But i will say that it would be nice to hear some treatment of pick up your cross and follow Me, or Don't be deceived, little children... by the "only believe" crowd; i can't get one to even acknowledge the vv
 

bbyrd009

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Why do you always have to separate faith and action.
bc i know this
he had to repent of his self righteous thinking! We cannot repent "of sins" to be saved
is an oversimplification at best, and likely unsupportable at all at worst.

i separate faith and action bc faith and action have been separated by the op iow
 

bbyrd009

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now don't get me wrong, it can be harder to do nothing than to do something, but that is not what i am reading about here, is it.
This is just another abdication-of-responsibility thread imo, it should be obvious that technically speaking one does not have to do anything, even get out of bed in the morning, so what. Your works will still be judged regardless, and saying "gee, i didn't realize that _______ was true" will not be a sufficient excuse when it becomes obvious that you don't like it--whatever it is--done to you.


this is strictly a White Jesus, WASP perspective imo, even if it proceeds from a valid point.
or, half of the argument is missing, the practical half, to put it another way

obviously if you are engaged in some work, some deed, and i come and ask you what you are doing,
"i am somewhere a'workin' for my Lord" will always be a bulletproof answer, yes
doesn't make it true.

The Christians Saul murdered do not care about his justifications, see; they still have a complaint against Saul
Saul did not live in a vacuum, iow, that he has the luxury of contemplating his actions from his perspective only; ppl died
imo a moderating principle is being warped into an extreme here wadr
 

Helen

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bc i know this
is an oversimplification at best, and likely unsupportable at all at worst.

Okay...but for a moment lets forget "the thread"...
Do you agree or disagree with his statement you quoted to me...ie.
< We cannot repent "of sins" to be saved >

See I do agree. Any person any where can sit and list off his sins one by one.
( if he can remember them all!!) That will not save him.
What saves us is SEEING....what God's love meant when He sent us Himself in Jesus Christ. Agree?
So man first SEES it. Then he BELIEVES it. = Faith.
Then that causes a heartfelt brokenness within...we KNOW that we do not measure up, and never can. We SEE the Love...and we repent of our own ways and our own life...and we ask for this wonderful love and mercy to be ours.
God floods us with His love...we get up off our knees SAVED.

So, not just one action of man confessing sins..but the Action of Jesus love revealed on the cross.

So...his quote above is correct > We cannot repent "of sins" to be saved..<
It is a part of the whole, but it is not the whole work of salvation...if so..
Salvation would be 'of man', not of God!!!!o_O
 

bbyrd009

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Okay...but for a moment lets forget "the thread"...
Do you agree or disagree with his statement you quoted to me...ie.
< We cannot repent "of sins" to be saved >

See I do agree. Any person any where can sit and list off his sins one by one.
( if he can remember them all!!) That will not save him.
well, that is confession, not rebound? And confession is made unto salvation, so i dunno.
imo you can rebound from sin and be saved, and confession is the beginning.
But it should also be noted that ppl might confess to all kinds of things that are not sin, too
 

bbyrd009

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What saves us is SEEING....what God's love meant when He sent us Himself in Jesus Christ. Agree?
no, seeing it does not save anyone imo. Unless they are moved by it anyway
So man first SEES it. Then he BELIEVES it. = Faith.
Then that causes a heartfelt brokenness within...
or a public declaration acceptable to peers, yes. Or usually something in between, i guess
 

bbyrd009

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we KNOW that we do not measure up, and never can.
be perfect, as I am perfect would seem to argue here; i suggest that being in Christ is the way to measure up, which i'm sure you agree, but notice that you do not get like a visible halo or anything when you are in Christ, right, the concept remains arbitrary, absent any witnesses? i can witness that you are measuring up right now! In ten minutes, who knows? I can also testify that you are not measuring up right now, if you are neglecting puppies, say, or whatever, children in need, to reply to me. Seems to me that i am called to do the first one, and avoid the second one for the most part; the opposite of what i normally do, iow.
 
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