Conflating Jesus' Second Coming with the Scorched Earth is not possible

[Spiritual Israelite]

She had Blasphemous names on her, she had a cup full of abominations and filthiness. Now look back at Dan. 5, John got this from Dan. 5, where the Mene, Mene, Tekel handwriting on the wall stated Babylon had fallen. Here John is saying False Religion will finally be Judged !! But God uses the Beast and his 10 horns (Europe) to kill her off (judge her). In their world there is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jupiter or Zeus worship, only a desire for Beast Worship now exists, thus the Harlot is thrown overboard, or judged in Rev. 17. Meanwhile, when Jesus returns he will judge Beast Worshipers himself. Now does this chapter in Daniel make more sense? It was a double prophecy of sorts. John used it for Rev. 17s Harlotry.

Dan. 5:2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein. 3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. 4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.

5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.

Daniel is sent for and interprets:

Dan. 5:24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. 25 And this is the writing that was written, Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

Notice another revelation here, there are NO CROWNS on this Scarlet Colored Beast (Apollyon) and that is because its a different Beast from the Red Dragon of Rev. 12 who has CROWNS on the 7 Heads because as Satan told Jesus in Luke 4, all of these kingdoms are mine to give you, if you will just bow down and worship me. Then in Rev. 13 the Little Horn/Man Beast/A.C. has CROWNS on the 10 horns (Europe) because he rules over them. Apollyon has NO CROWNS because he is not a human king, nor is he over Satan on this earth in the spirit realm, however he is an 8th in that he is a king over the Bottomless Pit and he is of the 7 in that Satan appointed him over the Mediterranean Sea Region, thus he was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia (he was the one who resisted Michael in Dan. 10 for 21 days), Greece and Rome, then God placed him in the Bottomless Pit for the duration of the Church Age, he will be released at the 1st Woe and will thus be over the Anti-Christ, thus he will have been OF THE SEVEN.............but he is also an 8th King. (God loves His riddles). He is a King over the bottomless pit only.

So, we now know that the Harlot of Rev. 17 is FALSE RELIGION. So, who is Babylon in Rev. 18? Well, they go hand in hand until the Last Beast kills her off, so Babylon is the Government side of this two headed coin which God sees as a defilement. They worshiped not God, nor do they abide by God's rules nor laws !! We can see who God calls Babylon the Great in Rev. 16:19, at the 7th Vial. It's EASY PEASY when we know it, because we see it, because God via the Holy Spirit has been allowed to TEACH US !!

Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided(Jerusalem/Earthquake/2nd Coming) into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So, Jesus lands on Mt. Zion, wipes out the wicked, and God calls them Babylon the Great, well who were they? BOOM, the 6th Vial tells us, TRUST ME, it says the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD are gathered to fight the Almighty God. But why? BABEL, means confused, so who fights against their own loving Creator? Men who have been duped by Satan, of course. Thus God sees Babylon the Great as Satan's Dark Kingdom on this earth where he confuses mankind into following his ways over God's ways !! It is that simple, that is why when Babylon Falls, Satan is locked up in the pit for 1000 years.

Now lets interpret Rev. 18, Babylon getting judged is this whole evil and confused world being judged by God over a 42 month period of time. We can see this in verse 2, Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) has become a habitation of devils. Well, who is cast down to earth for 1260 days to chase the Woman (Israel) in Rev. 12? Satan and his Demons !! Who is released from the Bottomless Pit at the 1st Woe? Apollyon and his Demon hordes, now see why Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD? In verse 4 where God tells His people to come out of her that she does not partake in Babylon's sin, nor RECEIVE of her PLAGUES, we can now see, this is God telling Israel to flee Judea, into the Petra/Bozrah area where God will protect her Himself for 1260 days, where no plagues will harm her !! Its just happening in real time in Rev. 7, where the 144,000 is CODE for 3.5-5 million Jews who repents just before the DOTL as Zech. 13:8-9 and 14:1 shows us, as does Malachi 4:5-6. They then flee Judea when they see the AoD. So, they repent at the 1335, see the AoD at the 1290 and flee, then Jerusalem gets conquered at the 1260.

The Rest of Rev. 18 is prose about this evil world getting judged over a 42 month period of time. In verse 8 we see she gets judged in ONE DAY then in verse 10 we see she gets judged in ONE HOUR, well both are CODE for 1260 days. The Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) lasts for 1260 days. Then in Rev. 17:12 we see the 10 kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR and we know the Beast rules for 1260 days or 42 months, see how the bible will interpret itself if we let it? Now watch how God says the Bridegroom nor Bride can be found in Babylon anymore (in the wicked world getting judged).

Rev. 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee(Church, we are the Light of the world); and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. {{ They loved money more than God. }}

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev. 17 is ALL FALSE RELIGION being Judged. (The Harlot)

Rev. 18 is this Wicked and Confused (Babel) world being Judged. (Babylon the Great)

It is easy peasy when we let God teach us, when we try tom force interpretations, or listen to men, it is not easy peasy. I understand every chapter in the book of Revelation, and the exact Chronological Order that it is in. Rev. 1 is Jesus in all his Glory (the things you have seen) Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age (the things WHICH ARE). Everything after Rev. 3 beginning with Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER or after the Church Age period.

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seals. Rev. 6 is Jesus opening the Seals, which are just Prophetic Utterings of the coming Trumpet Judgments. Rev. 7 is the 3.5-5 million Jews who repent at the 1335, fleeing at the 1290, which happens just before the DOTL (1260 events). Rev. 8 starts the Wrath of God via an Asteroid (I see it as Apophis). Rev. 9 is the 5th and 6th Trumpets which are Woes number 1 and 2. Then we must skip to Rev. 16 (15 and 16 actually go together, we can see this by reading Rev. 8, the Trumps are readied, then blown in the same chapter. Here, they divided 15 and 16 but the Vials are readied in Heaven in Rev. 15, then poured out on earth in Rev. 16, IMHO, it should not be divided since Rev. 8 was not divided) where God's Wrath continues with the 7th Trump, which brings the 3rd Woe, which is the 7 Vials. This ENDS God's Wrath, Jesus shows up in Rev. 16:19 to defeat Babylon the Great !! Every other chapter is a Parenthetical Citation chapter, save 20, 21 and 22 which are real time chapters.

CONTINUED.........

You lost me on this one. At least we agree on one thing, but I don't even know where to start on this one. Yikes. If this is all so "easy peasy" then why are you not able to explain it more succintly? I find what you posted here to be very convoluted and not "easy peasy" at all.

 

[robert derrick]

Of course. Who doesn't know this?

Those who make the return of the Lord to smite the nations, and rule them not smitten, into nothing but symbol, because symbols are in it.

That would include you.

Right, but it does mean the method by which He will destroy His enemies at that time is described symbolically. It is described literally in other passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12.

The destruction of Gog and Magog, with the scorching of the earth, is revealed in 2 Peter 3.

Not the slaughter of the kings gathered with the beast at Armageddon, which includes all the fowls of the earth called to eat their flesh.

I suppose that may be true, but the fact is that I take a number of passages more literally than you do. For example, when I read a passage like 2 Thess 1:7-10 I believe it is talking about Jesus destroying literally all of those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel when He returns. But, that isn't how Premils like yourself interpret the passage.

I don't know if I have already responded to you in this, or if it was another.

But Paul only speaks of those that trouble the saints, and obey God.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.

There never has, is not now, nor will be at His return, all men, women, and children on earth.

There will be plenty of naturally neighborly sheep unsmitten, that will be ushered into the glorious kingdom of Christ on earth.

Them that trouble God's people, are His enemies that purposely make war with Him and them.

Not all unbelievers are also disobedient to God in all things. After all, His second commandant is to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Anyone thinking no unbeliever can have anything to do with loving a neighbor, is a Pharisee that ceremonially cleanses himself after making contact with a 'heathen'.

I also take Jesus very literally in a passage like John 5:28-29 when He says a singular time or event is coming when literally all of the dead will be resurrected. You don't interpret it that way since you have some people resurrected at one time and others being resurrected at another time (and maybe others at yet another time if you're pre-trib).

Exactly true. There will be the first bodily resurrection of the saints, and then the rest of the dead after a thousand years.

And there is also the Resurrection of Jesus Christ already past.

That makes 3 separate bodily resurrections of the dead in time.

Yeah, I guess you did, but it doesn't make any sense. My takeaway from what you said is that it's always obvious as to what is symbolic and what isn't, but that is simply not true. My approach is that I establish the foundation of my doctrine on clear, straightforward scripture and then I interpret scripture in highly symbolic books like Revelation accordingly. I'm not going to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts other more clear scripture the way I believe Premils do.

I.e. you pick and choose according to your concluded interpretation.

It is always obvious what is symbol, allegory, and parable or not, and the Scripture itself shows it.

Ruling with a rod of iron is not the same as ruling in the way you're thinking about.

Then you don't believe the Lord Himself can rule over natural people, so that they are blessed on earth, and even come to His throne to be instructed in how to walk in His paths.

I've said it before to others: you preach a very low opinion of the Lord's ability to personally rule over natural men on earth, because you have a highly prejudiced teaching against it ever happening.

Have you ever read Psalm 2:7-9? It talks about Him BREAKING/DESTROYING His enemies with a rod of iron. In Revelation 19:15-18 the description of Him ruling with a rod of iron is accompanied by descriptions of Him destroying His enemies.

Correct. He will destroy His enemies first without mercy, and then He will rule and shepherd the natural sheep remaining, with a rod of iron.

That will be righteous judgment without respect of persons and clear good law to follow.

Why do you not take these things into account?

You don't think I do, because you're not clearly reading what I'm saying. It's that prejudiced teaching of your's at work.

Few people are able to really read and understanding what others are saying that differ from us, without misshaping it to make it look ridiculous or obviously false.

Few people are willing to be corrected, if even them they have not agreed with, shows the sense of something they have not believed before.

Where is anything like this described in Psalm 2:7-9 or Revelation 19:15-18?

Those only speak of the slaughter. Other prophecies speak of the good peace and blessings of His reign on earth.

You know them yourself, but you do some thing or another with them to reject them, as being literally on this earth after His return.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, no kidding. Yet, I don't believe you have done anything to refute my beliefs.

I know you don't nor will.

Remember, I'm not looking for you to be corrected by me. I only respond to anything new, and use it for the Scriptural exercise of refuting it.

Unless of course I agree with something, then I'll say so. And if I am corrected, then all the better to perfect the doctrine.

So, you believe "the rest of the dead" includes believers? Clearly, the ones who Jesus said will "rise to live" in John 5:28-29 are believers.

They will be judged to be in the Lamb's book of life or not.

If none of them are, then God is exercising a wasted time of futility. I don't believe the teaching, that God takes time to judge, just to go through 'the process'.

Daniel 12:2 speaks of many, not all, that will be raised from the dead to be judged unto shame or everlasting life. That will be the rest of the dead, after the first bodily resurrection of all saints, that began with righteous Abel, and ends with the last ones remaining alive on earth at His return.

There will be two bodily resurrections after that of Jesus', which first will be all saints, and then will be both the wicked since Cain, and the righteous during His reign on earth.

He was not just referring to them. He referred generally to those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel.

Specifically of them that trouble the people of God and make war with them and the Lord Himself.

Not all unbelievers are warring God haters.

It is you who rejects the scripture as written. And you are not taking other scripture into consideration which teaches that Jesus will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, such as Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Yes, those at Armageddon from among all nations, and then a thousand years later with all of Gog and Magog from all quarters of the earth.

Nope. It will be all who don't believe the gospel. No exceptions. Do you see Jesus making any exceptions here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Once again, I don't know if I have responded to this with you, or just with others, You stop short of the whole prophecy:

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The nature of the flood's unexpectedness like a thief in the night, and it beiung over all the earth like lightning is prophesied, not the extent of death by it.

The exceptions are obviously those after His return like a lightning flood, that will then be executed and taken away from the earth or left on earth to live in His kingdom and rule.

That will be the judgment of the natural sheep and goats.

Your end of life on earth after His return to earth, is plainly false.

Jesus indicated that just as all unbelievers without exception were killed by the flood in Noah's day, "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". You are not interpreting scripture with scripture. You are interpreting 2 Thess 1:7-10 in such a way that contradicts passages like this one and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Once again false. The nature of the flood is the same in expectedness, and swiftness, and over all the earth. Not in extent of death and destruction.

Is He going to do so twice? How do you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

This prophecy is confirmed by Rev 20:7-9. Not before.

Peter indicated that, in keeping with the promise of Christ's second coming, the heavens and the earth will be burned up and renewed, resulting in the new heavens and new earth that we are looking forward to. So, that will happen on the day Christ returns. How could it happen again 1,000+ years later?

1. Peter does not speak of Christ's second coming, nor even of Christ coming, but of the day of the Lord, that is still to come, which first came with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

2. The last day of the Lord will not be that of Jesus coming to earth the first and second time, but will be with He and His saints departing the earth, before the fire of God coming down to destroy Gog and Magog and burning the whole earth.

The Lord Jesus Christ is not the fire of God coming down from heaven. The last day of the Lord will be with that burning fire for all the earth.

The day of the Lord is prophesied for three different times, with three different purpose, and two bodily resurrections are prophesied for two different purposes.

The first is for the saints to rule with Him over the earth, and the second is to be rid of all the wicked, and to bring the righteous during His kingdom on earth, into the new heaven and earth.

 

[ewq1938]

And there is also the Resurrection of Jesus Christ already past.

That makes 3 separate bodily resurrections of the dead in time.

There are other examples of resurrections such as Lazarus. However, in Rev 20, there are two groups of teh dead resurrectine. The saints before the thousand years and the rest of the dead which are the unsaved at the GWTJ who all are sent to the LOF.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those who make the return of the Lord to smite the nations, and rule them not smitten, into nothing but symbol, because symbols are in it.

That would include you.

What are you talking about? It describes real destruction in a symbolic way. Is that somehow a problem for you? You want to believe in a literal sword coming out of Christ's mouth, which is completely ludicrous? I do not claim that it's all just symbolic and not portraying anything real. It's describing a real event with symbolic terms. Stop misrepresenting my view.

The destruction of Gog and Magog, with the scorching of the earth, is revealed in 2 Peter 3.

Not the slaughter of the kings gathered with the beast at Armageddon, which includes all the fowls of the earth called to eat their flesh.

You are missing the symbolism there. Yes, the destruction is real, but not the way it's described. There will not be birds literally eating flesh at that time any more than Christ will be literally slaying people with a sword coming out of His mouth, which is a completely ridiculous thing to believe. The literal description of the destruction is found in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12. And 2 Thess 1:7-10 says that He will be coming "in flaming fire" while taking vengeance on His enemies.

I don't know if I have already responded to you in this, or if it was another.

But Paul only speaks of those that trouble the saints, and obey God.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.

Yes, he does mention them specifically, but that does not mean he was saying that they are the only ones Jesus will be taking vengeance on when He returns. That is not what Paul said. He said that Jesus will be taking vengeance on all those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel, so he expanded that beyond just those who give trouble to the saints.

There never has, is not now, nor will be at His return, all men, women, and children on earth.

What does this mean?

There will be plenty of naturally neighborly sheep unsmitten, that will be ushered into the glorious kingdom of Christ on earth.

Where is this taught in scripture? You are making things up. Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me". So, from His perspective all people are either with Him or against Him. You are trying to create a third group that is not taught anywhere in scripture. Also, scripture says mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50), yet you believe the sheep are mortals who will inherit the kingdom of God, which contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Them that trouble God's people, are His enemies that purposely make war with Him and them.

Again, Jesus said that anyone who is not with Him is against Him. So, He had a different definition for His enemies than you do. We should go by how Jesus looks at things and not by how we want things to be because of doctrinal bias.

Not all unbelievers are also disobedient to God in all things. After all, His second commandant is to love our neighbors as ourselves.

So what? They are still unbelievers who Jesus considers to be against Him and are headed for hell if they don't repent.

Anyone thinking no unbeliever can have anything to do with loving a neighbor, is a Pharisee that ceremonially cleanses himself after making contact with a 'heathen'.

Who is saying anything like this? No one. But, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus considers unbelievers to be against Him since they are not with Him.

Exactly true. There will be the first bodily resurrection of the saints, and then the rest of the dead after a thousand years.

And there is also the Resurrection of Jesus Christ already past.

First bodily resurrection of the saints? There's only going to be one bodily resurrection event of the saints. A first implies a second. The first was Christ's resurrection. Then next in order is those who are His at His coming, as Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:22-23. This is, of course, only in relation to Christ and His people and unbelievers are not referenced there.

That makes 3 separate bodily resurrections of the dead in time.

I don't care if you want to see the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked as two separate resurrections, but Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28-29 indicate that they will be resurrected at generally the same time, even if not at the same moment. They certainly don't teach that they will be resurrected a long time apart.

I.e. you pick and choose according to your concluded interpretation.

It is always obvious what is symbol, allegory, and parable or not, and the Scripture itself shows it.

That's what you say, but you can't even recognize that Revelation 19:11-21 is describing the destruction that will occur when Christ returns symbolically. So, it isn't as obvious as you think.

Then you don't believe the Lord Himself can rule over natural people, so that they are blessed on earth, and even come to His throne to be instructed in how to walk in His paths.

Don't ever tell me that I don't believe the Lord can do something. He can do anything. But, scripture does not teach that He will "rule over natural people" on the earth. It has nothing to do with what I believe He can do, it has to do with what scripture teaches He will do.

I've said it before to others: you preach a very low opinion of the Lord's ability to personally rule over natural men on earth, because you have a highly prejudiced teaching against it ever happening.

Nonsense. The Lord can do anything He wants at any time, so it has nothing to do with that. By talking nonsense like this, you are diverting attention away from the fact that you can't back up your beliefs with scripture.

Correct. He will destroy His enemies first without mercy, and then He will rule and shepherd the natural sheep remaining, with a rod of iron.

Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. 8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Does this seem like a description of Him shepherding natural sheep to you? Him BREAKING them with a rod of iron and dashing them to pieces like pottery makes you think of shepherding sheep, does it?

 

[robert derrick]

The new earth will be this earth renewed. The new earth will be real. I'm not symbolizing anything regarding that. You are just not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

This earth will not be resurrected anew.

It will flee with this heaven from the face and sight of God forever.

For something to be described symbolically doesn't mean it isn't real. Good grief. Everyone knows this...except you?

If Scripture describes something symbolically, then it is a symbolic description of something else, and is not real itself.

When men make something symbolic out of Scripture, that is not written as such, it is to make a symbolic myth out of Scripture

The King's kingdom on earth is spiritually now with only them that believe and obey Him. It will also be over all the earth with His resurrected saints.

To the say the former is only symbol of the latter, is to make Scripture of the former symbolic myth only.

Scripture teaches that when He returns He will deliver the kingdom to the Father. They will reign together forever on the new earth (this earth renewed), not on this earth as we know it.

The church will be recieved unto Himself. The kingdom will be delivered to the Father after He has subdued all things unto Himself on earth.

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

We don't yet see all the world put into subjection of His rule on earth, but we see Jesus in our own lives putting us in subjection to Him.

He reigns now over His flesh and bones on earth, and He will reign then over all flesh and bones on earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

When He comes into our hearts now, and when He comes to earth again, and then at the end of His reign, after subduing all the earth, He hands over all His kingdom of heaven and earth to the Father.

His kingdom reign on earth, will be an example of the One that perfectly reigned over His own life, can do so also over the lives of others.

This is not true. But, my understanding of the "earthly tomorrow" is very different from yours.

Denying it at all is not different, but denying it.

The perplexing thing is why not believe both? Just because you see the spiritual millennium now, doesn't mean you have to blind yourself to the physical millennium later.

I still haven't figured that one out yet.

Unless of course you think it's somehow really special to see the spiritual significance of Scripture now, so that you must do away with it's physical import.

 

[robert derrick]

There are other examples of resurrections such as Lazarus. However, in Rev 20, there are two groups of teh dead resurrectine. The saints before the thousand years and the rest of the dead which are the unsaved at the GWTJ who all are sent to the LOF.

Lazarus was not a body resurrection with immortality.

Neither was the man whose bones touched the bones of Elisha.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They will be judged to be in the Lamb's book of life or not.

If none of them are, then God is exercising a wasted time of futility. I don't believe the teaching, that God takes time to judge, just to go through 'the process'.

Daniel 12:2 speaks of many, not all, that will be raised from the dead to be judged unto shame or everlasting life. That will be the rest of the dead, after the first bodily resurrection of all saints, that began with righteous Abel, and ends with the last ones remaining alive on earth at His return.

There will be two bodily resurrections after that of Jesus', which first will be all saints, and then will be both the wicked since Cain, and the righteous during His reign on earth.

Are you incapable of giving a straight answer? I asked "So, you believe "the rest of the dead" includes believers?". Yes or no?

Then I said "Clearly, the ones who Jesus said will "rise to live" in John 5:28-29 are believers.". Do you agree with that?

Once again, I don't know if I have responded to this with you, or just with others, You stop short of the whole prophecy:

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The nature of the flood's unexpectedness like a thief in the night, and it beiung over all the earth like lightning is prophesied, not the extent of death by it.

Have you never read 2 Peter 3:3-13? That too indicates that the extent of the destruction at that time will be global just like it was in the flood.

The exceptions are obviously those after His return like a lightning flood, that will then be executed and taken away from the earth or left on earth to live in His kingdom and rule.

Left on earth to live in His kingdom? That's not possible. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that mortal flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God, but you say they will. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught

That will be the judgment of the natural sheep and goats.

Your end of life on earth after His return to earth, is plainly false.

It's plainly true as can most clearly be seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

1. Peter does not speak of Christ's second coming, nor even of Christ coming, but of the day of the Lord, that is still to come, which first came with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

Your attention to detail is severely lacking. If you start reading in 2 Peter 3:3 and go through at least verse 13 you should see that Peter associated the day of the Lord with the day of His second coming. First, he pointed out that there are scoffers in the last days asking "where is the promise of His coming" and then Peter goes on to describe what will happen to those scoffers and other unbelievers by talking about how the heavens and earth will be burned up when He comes. We know that will happen when He comes because in verse 13 Peter indicates that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in direct fulfillment of the promise of His second coming.

How do you interpret the following passage?

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Do you not believe that this is talking about something that will happen on the day Christ returns?

2. The last day of the Lord will not be that of Jesus coming to earth the first and second time, but will be with He and His saints departing the earth, before the fire of God coming down to destroy Gog and Magog and burning the whole earth.

The Lord Jesus Christ is not the fire of God coming down from heaven. The last day of the Lord will be with that burning fire for all the earth.

The day of the Lord is prophesied for three different times, with three different purpose, and two bodily resurrections are prophesied for two different purposes.

The first is for the saints to rule with Him over the earth, and the second is to be rid of all the wicked, and to bring the righteous during His kingdom on earth, into the new heaven and earth.

You are all over the place here. This is just a convoluted mess that no one can make any sense of.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This earth will not be resurrected anew.

It will flee with this heaven from the face and sight of God forever.

So, when scripture says that the meek shall inherit the earth, you think they will only inherit the earth temporarily? That doesn't seem like anything great to look forward to if that's the case.

If Scripture describes something symbolically, then it is a symbolic description of something else, and is not real itself.

What in the world does this mean?

When men make something symbolic out of Scripture, that is not written as such, it is to make a symbolic myth out of Scripture

I agree. I'm glad I'm not doing that. Real things are sometimes described symbolically in scripture. Revelation 19:11-21 is one example of that.

The King's kingdom on earth is spiritually now with only them that believe and obey Him. It will also be over all the earth with His resurrected saints.

Right. And unbelievers will not be in it. And there will be no sin and death there as He will rid the earth of sin and death forever when He comes.

To the say the former is only symbol of the latter, is to make Scripture of the former symbolic myth only.

LOL. Do you even know what you're saying when you say things like this?

The church will be recieved unto Himself. The kingdom will be delivered to the Father after He has subdued all things unto Himself on earth.

Right, and He will do that when He returns and takes vengeance on all of His enemies just as scripture teaches.

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

We don't yet see all the world put into subjection of His rule on earth, but we see Jesus in our own lives putting us in subjection to Him.

You are not reading that text very carefully. Notice that it says "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet" and "he left nothing that is not put under him". Did you miss that part? That means all things RIGHT NOW are "in subjection under his feet" and are "put under him". When it says "not yet all things" are "put under him" that just means that there are things that don't yet exist that are not yet under Him. But, right now, all things that currently exist are under Him. That's what the text says and that is what other scripture like Ephesians 1:19-23 indicate as well.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

He reigns now over His flesh and bones on earth, and He will reign then over all flesh and bones on earth.

Nope. You continue to ignore the fact that Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that mortal flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. You should accept what Paul taught.

Denying it at all is not different, but denying it.

The perplexing thing is why not believe both? Just because you see the spiritual millennium now, doesn't mean you have to blind yourself to the physical millennium later.

How can I believe that the thousand years are happening both now and after Christ returns? That's ludicrous and impossible. No one believes that. I believe in a physical kingdom in the future but it will be the eternal new earth and will be free of sin and death.

I still haven't figured that one out yet.

Unless of course you think it's somehow really special to see the spiritual significance of Scripture now, so that you must do away with it's physical import.

I have never denied the future physical manifestation of the kingdom. My understanding of that is very different from yours, though.

 

[robert derrick]

The earth will be perfected and inhabited by the glorified redeemed (including Abraham and Job).

The new earth will be new and inhabited by such.

The old earth will flee away from sight of God, after Jesus rules it for a thousand years, with Abraham, Job, and all the resurrected saints at His return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The new earth will be new and inhabited by such.

The old earth will flee away from sight of God, after Jesus rules it for a thousand years, with Abraham, Job, and all the resurrected saints at His return.

That is symbolic text. Unless you think the earth will literally flee away somehow? Scripture says it will be burned up and made new. Scripture promises that the meek shall inherit the earth and that wouldn't be much of a promise if they only inherit it for a temporary period of time.

 

[robert derrick]

Where do you get that?

2 Peter and Jude.

The flames of hell are dark chains with torment for spiritual beings of angels and men, for being forever separated from God.

With the burned earth and stars, they will flee from His sight, forever wandering in the blackness of dark torment unto themselves.

The flames and fire have no light, and the torment is not of flesh and blood, but of knowing to be separated from the life and fellowship of Christ forever.

It is the eternal torment of mind and spirit and soul. It is worse than any amount of physical pain.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

And we're all supposed to somehow know about all that when you say it's "easy peasy"? It would be better for you to just not say things like that because it does not give the impression that you are someone who has studied this much, even though you have (as most of us here have, yet there is still a lot of disagreement).

Well, it is easy for me, but not for others, I agree there. Basically I have seen no one who understands the 1335, 1290 and 1260, I explained it last night and it got lost in the shuffle or deleted, so I never try to rewrite things the same night, when I am frustrated something got deleted. Basically, a lot of what I write centers around the 1335, 1290 and 1260, IMHO, that is the most important prophetic scriptures to understand, once someone gets what those three numbers mean, they can understand all of end time prophecy. As I was doing my Exegesis on Dan. 11 & 12 God gave that to me, and He also gave me a guy named Jason (real name Yeshua) who solves for us who the future False Prophet will be, or I should say what his office will be, a Jewish High Priest.

As per my manner of speech, I am a country boy from central Alabama, I use those kinds of words at times. The point is when we quit trying so hard and rely on God, it gets much easier to understand.

Couple things to point out here. One is that we all believe God has showed us things in scripture. You are coming across here as if you are the only one who believes that and the only one who God has actually shown things to. Not so. So, you can tell me God showed you this and that all you want, but I believe He has shown me things as well and they don't agree with what you think He has shown you. So, at least one of us is mistaken (if not both) in our belief that God has shown us the truth about these things we're talking about.

Anyway, the other thing is that the harlot and Babylon are clearly the same. You seem to be saying otherwise here? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion when it's very obvious that the terms "harlot" and "Babylon" are clearly used to describe the same entity.

That is not how I work, as I told you I have been called specifically unto Prophecy for 37 plus years. I did not go around for 30 years saying, this is this and this is this, etc. etc. because I do not go down that road. I however to understand the small still voice of the holy spirit and I was told a lot about, no, no, no, NO, NO, NO. this doesn't add up Ron. But not given a whole lot of understandings of these other things until about 7 years ago. And I have been studying, praying for these things as I sat in my house a lot, and debated these things. So, God always rewards those who seek His face in earnest.


The Harlot = All False Religion. Babylon = False Governance. The Harlot rides the Beast. The A.C. and his kings kill off the Harlot, so they can't be the same things, you just always thought they were, as I did for 30 years, but in Rev. 16:19 God tells us who Babylon is, He says He gave the wine-press of His wrath to Babylon the Great. Well, the 6th Vial tells us who came to Armageddon, the Kings of the Whole World. It is two different entities, the Harlot rides the Beast.

Many people think things are true when they are not. For instance God has never shown anyone that the Rapture is anything but Pre Trib. The key is being able to add up all the different passages.

I actually pretty much agree with you on this, amazingly enough. I don't see the harlot Babylon as being Jerusalem or Rome as many people do, either. You seemed to be saying before that the harlot and Babylon were different entities, but maybe not? You're not as easy to follow as you probably think you are.

The Harlot ASSOSCIATED with Babylon. You know what John use here? A picture of a real Harlot. The Harlots would stand in the city centers with their names on their foreheads to instruct their clientele who they were. So, John said MYSTERY......Then hangs three name tags on the Harlot which clue us in on who she is. One clue is Babylon the Great, and Mother of Harlots, the last is Abominations of the Earth.

Believe me, I know its not easy, but it is to me. Its like a 10,000 piece puzzle I have done before. Or a curvy race track I have already driven. The Harlot and Babylon are two different entities, one is False Religion, the other is basically Governance without God. All of these Gov. centers had false religion, the Harlot rides the Beast.

I will have to go back to the 1335, 1290 and 1260 some other time, not feeling great tonight tbh.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You lost me on this one. At least we agree on one thing, but I don't even know where to start on this one. Yikes. If this is all so "easy peasy" then why are you not able to explain it more succintly? I find what you posted here to be very convoluted and not "easy peasy" at all.

Its not going to be east for you or others per se. It is fir me because I already understand it. But you and others also have those road blocks of men's traditions to overcome, I don't.

My explanation of the Chronological Order of Revelation is very easy to follow.

 

[WPM]

2 Peter and Jude.

The flames of hell are dark chains with torment for spiritual beings of angels and men, for being forever separated from God.

With the burned earth and stars, they will flee from His sight, forever wandering in the blackness of dark torment unto themselves.

The flames and fire have no light, and the torment is not of flesh and blood, but of knowing to be separated from the life and fellowship of Christ forever.

It is the eternal torment of mind and spirit and soul. It is worse than any amount of physical pain.

Where in 2 Peter and Jude does it say that the earth "will remain with all sinning angels and men, in the blackness of darkness forever"? This sounds like another invention of yours. Who needs Scripture when you have such a liberal approach to truth?

 

[robert derrick]

That is symbolic text.

This is why there is no honest debate with symbolizers making myth of any Scripture they want.

Unless you think the earth will literally flee away somehow? Scripture says it will be burned up and made new.

This is why such symbolizers say things that no Scripture ever does. They fail to at least make difference between what is written in Scripture and what is only in their own minds.

Scripture says the old earth will flee from the face of God, and you reject it as nonsense. No Scripture says the old earth is ever made new, nor made the new earth, and you preach it as true.

Scripture promises that the meek shall inherit the earth and that wouldn't be much of a promise if they only inherit it for a temporary period of time.

That's your opinion, because you have no respect for this earth, that has become the kingdom of the Lord's rule on earth.

Which is not surprising, since you do away with His kingdom rule over this earth, as nothing but symbolic myth. And you instead preach your own mind for teaching of Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Anyway, the other thing is that the harlot and Babylon are clearly the same. You seem to be saying otherwise here? I don't know how you can come to that conclusion when it's very obvious that the terms "harlot" and "Babylon" are clearly used to describe the same entity.

Then the harlot and the beast including the ten kings are all the same, with no distinction between harlot and the beast she is on?

Then the beast cannot destroy the harlot. It would be like a person destroying their heart, and then expecting to keep going without a heart. Symbolically that would work, but what is your literal point? Humans stopped thinking with their heart, and lost all humanity in Revelation 17? Armageddon is not necessary to just cut out one's heart.

I am still not sure why the point is rejected, that the harlot represents man's religion, while the beast represents man's politics.

Historically martyrs were produced because of a religious ideology, not necessarily a political agenda. People don't get into heaven because they have a political difference of opinion. Believers are martyred, because they refuse to accept man's doctrine and instead hold to the Word of God. Literally it was the heretics who killed believers, not the other way around. No follower of Christ killed a heretic. They were told to stop having fellowship with them. I think in online lingo that is called the ignore list. But to admit to defeating other posters, is typically a heretical point of view killing a Scriptural view.

The normal progression of error always gets to a point where politics eventually wipes out religion, and replaces faith with ideology. Because Satan knows faith in God starts at the individual level, and if he can take away individuals and replace them with community, then people can trust government and not their relationship with God. Eventually Satan will replace even false religion with a total lack of religion.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The beast doesn't reign at the same time as Christ, but it is not incapacitated while He reigns, either. Do you understand that the beast existed before John wrote the book of Revelation, was in the abyss/bottomless pit at the time it was written, and will ascend from it in the future (Revelation 17:8)

Let me get this straight.
Christ dies and rises and when he ascends, he is reigning.
Now that he left, the Gospel is in its purest form at least for the next 100 years. That same hundred years and whatever after, Satan is sealed.

So you're telling, all the persecution the early church had: the prison, the beatings, floggings, decapitations, crucifying, fed to animals, tarred and burned alive was during the time Satan is sealed? The distortion of the Gospel afterwards, the heresies and such as well. Because Satan was not sealed before Christ ascended, while Satan roamed, the early Christians didn't have any problems; not till he was sealed according to you. Satan free, no problem. Satan sealed, problem. It isn't logical. Satan wasn't involved in Nazi Germany? Satan wasnt involved with LGBTQIA? Satan wasnt involved with distorting God's word? Satan wasnt involved with Muslim's killing Christians?

1 Peter 5 says the devil is still prowling around seeking who he can devour. That doesnt sound like someone in prison. I know if I am locked up, I cant prowl around devouring people in the world.

Let me go back to that verse in Rev 20.

those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

After Christ ascended, he was reigning according to you. When did the beast and its image and its mark show up? When did the man of sin show up? By saying Christ reigns now, you are making the beast of the sea, the image of the 1st beast, the mark of the first beast and the beast of the earth all prior to Christ ascension even though Revelation wasnt written till about 96AD and it was concerning John's future.
If "these did not worship the beast or its image or its mark", and youre saying this event is symbolic, youre implying this event which is most of the prophecy of Revelation finished at the cross. Who was the man of sin? Who was the false prophet?

If John was told that 7 heads of the dragon existed and 5 were fallen and 1 is in John's time...how is Satan sealed at 96AD if 1 "is" and the other has yet to come? That is a 60+ year difference from Christ ascending to John receiving Revelation and the dragon still roams with 2 heads that still wear 2 crowns. Think about that!

 

[Truth7t7]

And so there will be no promise of God kept to give the land that Abraham walked on, to Abraham himself.

Job will not see His Redeemer and God stand on this earth as he prophesied.

And there will be none of them of the nations smitten by the Lord, that Scripture says He will.

One promised unkept by God and two prophesied of Scripture made false.

Denying the words of Scripture are to be believed as written, doesn't require living in denial, since I'm I'm sure you still agree the sky is blue and the grass is green.

Yes you're living in denial, scripture has been clearly presented to you that shows Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You want to erase this biblical truth in maintaining your false beliefs and teachings of a Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus "False"!

The Eternal Kingdom is seen in Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 regarding the division of land for inheritance in the "New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem"

"The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth"

Ezekiel 47:12-14KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
13 Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Ezekiel 48:29-35KJV
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God.
30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

"The Eternal New Jerusalem"

Revelation 21:10-14KJV
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

The earth will be perfected and inhabited by the glorified redeemed (including Abraham and Job).

This earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire in judgement, the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, will be a completely New Creation

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.