Critical thinking and education is linked to loss of faith

[Riven]

I started a thread this morning with the thought in mind that you did see at least some evidence for the possible existence of God. It’s titled “Why Cold-Case Skills Can Help You Examine Christianity”. You strike me as a highly intelligent person; one who might very well embrace taking a forensic statement analysis approach toward examining the Gospels. The thread is located in the Inter-Faith Discussion forum. My hope is that you will take a few minutes (less than 10) to take a look at a couple of short clips.

I'll take a look.

You haven’t entirely ruled out that it is also evidence of someone.

No, not entirely.

Jesus has been resurrected from the dead.

How do you know? Furthermore, how do we know it isn't a fictitious story written after Jesus died on the cross?

I’ve seen him in some television commercials but they didn’t suggest that he is the creator of the heavens and the earth.

Agreed.

 

[Matthias]

I'll take a look.


No, not entirely.


How do you know? Furthermore, how do we know it isn't a fictitious story written after Jesus died on the cross?


Agreed.

I have more evidence that he’s alive than I have evidence that you are, and I believe you are.

 

[DuckieLady]

I'll take a look.


No, not entirely.


How do you know? Furthermore, how do we know it isn't a fictitious story written after Jesus died on the cross?


Agreed.

By the testimonies of the people who not only saw it happened, but those who were martyred for His cause. Do you think all of these Jews made up a fictional story for entertainment so that they could be murdered for fun?

People do not risk the lives of themselves and their families for kicks. It's because they witnessed it happen.

 

[Riven]

By the testimonies of the people who not only saw it happened, but those who were martyred for His cause. Do you think all of these Jews made up a fictional story for entertainment so that they could be murdered for fun?

No. I think they truly believed it. Such that they were willing to die for it. It still doesn't mean what they believed was the truth.

People do not risk the lives of themselves and their families for kicks. It's because they witnessed it happen.

Should we ignore the Muslims that routinely kill themselves in order to be martyrs? Or Christian snake handlers that get bitten, refuse treatment, and die? Many people die for their beliefs.

 

[DuckieLady]

No. I think they truly believed it. Such that they were willing to die for it. It still doesn't mean what they believed was the truth.


Should we ignore the Muslims that routinely kill themselves in order to be martyrs? Or Christian snake handlers that get bitten, refuse treatment, and die? Many people die for their beliefs.

I think you should study Biblical archeology. Just a suggestion. You might enjoy it.

Also, snake handlers are sinning. "Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God."

 

[DuckieLady]

No. I think they truly believed it. Such that they were willing to die for it. It still doesn't mean what they believed was the truth.


Should we ignore the Muslims that routinely kill themselves in order to be martyrs? Or Christian snake handlers that get bitten, refuse treatment, and die? Many people die for their beliefs.

Just to add to my previous comment, I think you're just looking for answers.

In that case, you could be your own detective and look for answers, or you can look for people who already did like Wallace.

https://coldcasechristianity.com/j-warner-wallace-christian-apologist-and-author/

But I feel like judging based off your responses that someone else's judgment will not be enough for you, because you are more a person who wants to seek deeper yourself.

So, do that. What is the harm? All you will do is learn.

 

[Riven]

I think you should study Biblical archeology. Just a suggestion. You might enjoy it.

Also, snake handlers are sinning. "Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God."

Why archeology?

 

[Grailhunter]

Generally, the more religious one is, the less educated they are. Those who happen to be both educated and religious such as theologians, are largely disingenuous and intellectually dishonest-victims of cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics. They can easily apply their critical thinking skills to all other forms of magical thinking and religious beliefs separate from their own, but fail to apply the same reasoning to their own beliefs. Now of course religious zealots will mention the commonly over-used and stale argument of the Catholic Church being behind most of the world’s scientific advancements and education, but that in itself is a form of post hoc fallacy. Deconstructing is by no means easy, but this lady has done it here after many years of being a Christian:

You could not be more wrong. You do not have to be stupid to have faith. The uneducated get such a chip on their shoulders and get so intimidated and they react with insults and there in no reason for it. Christianity is one of the simplest religions. It does not take a college degree to understand the path to salvation or the basics. And the more you know the more unshakable is your faith. Look at the 1st century Christians, most could not read or write and no Bibles, yet thousands saved.

 

[DuckieLady]

Why archeology?

Because you are looking for answers in that can be seen or are tangible.

Now, faith is a spiritual thing. It cannot be seen. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Notice Jesus said, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

But I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions. I think it is wisdom to seek out and find answers or look for things.

Who will stop you from finding out?

 

[ProDeo]

The evolution believing atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman.
-- Kent Hovind

 

[Riven]

Because you are looking for answers in that can be seen or are tangible.

Now, faith is a spiritual thing. It cannot be seen. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Notice Jesus said, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

But I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions. I think it is wisdom to seek out and find answers or look for things.

Who will stop you from finding out?

I was educated in the public school system. My real first exposure to Christianity was when I was already in high school.

This education is far removed from what the bible teaches. The scientific method is built on the study of evidence. I can't just shut that part of my brain off like a light switch and rewire it to accept taking things on faith.

The only logical answer to your question would be myself. I am the obstacle.

 

[DuckieLady]

I was educated in the public school system. My real first exposure to Christianity was when I was already in high school.

This education is far removed from what the bible teaches. The scientific method is built on the study of evidence. I can't just shut that part of my brain off like a light switch and rewire it to accept taking things on faith.

The only logical answer to your question would be myself. I am the obstacle.

Well you're right, YOU can't shut it off- in your own human nature. That's understandable. The Bible even says so.
Notice in Corinthians it's the "natural man."

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So what your prayer should be is ask God to help you understand by His spirit. Then study. It is not about what the natural man can do.

 

[Riven]

Well you're right, YOU can't shut it off- in your own human nature. That's understandable. The Bible even says so.
Notice in Corinthians it's the "natural man."

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So what your prayer should be is ask God to help you understand by His spirit. Then study. It is not about what the natural man can do.

But how does the natural man not see asking God for help also as foolishness? It's all connected. When I do pray, I don't feel like anyone hears me.

 

[ProDeo]

How do you know? Furthermore, how do we know it isn't a fictitious story written after Jesus died on the cross?

There is evidence, first from the Bible itself.

1Cor 15:4 that he [Jesus] was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Cor 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. [Jesus 12 disciples]
1Cor 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

Unless the author was lying of course.

Secondly the stories from the 12 disciples (those mentioned in 15:5), all 12 have seen the risen Jesus, they started to pronounce the Gospel message to the world and 11 of them died a cruel martyr death for their faith. Now imagine these 12 people were cheaters, pronouncing Christ while knowing the resurrection was a lie and then when push comes to shove are willing to give their live for a lie??? Think about it, only mad men would do that, in a extreme case maybe one or two, but not eleven. Those 11 had seen the risen Jesus, they KNEW.

This in contrast (as for an example), the 19 Muslim terrorists attack on 9/11, they believed the Quran and were willing to die. But believing is not the same as knowing. Jesus 12 disciples KNEW.

 

[ProDeo]

No. Because Bigfoot doesn't exist. Even if he did exist, he can't simultaneously exist outside of the universe and within it.

See, I find it more comforting to say I don't know. Because I truly don't. The atheist who says they know there is no God, is just as religious as the Christian that says he knows there is one.

Riven: The atheist who says they know there is no God, is just as religious

That's a good one.

Every educated person can't 100% atheist, there is always a small part that remains agnostic, just ask Dawkins.

 

[ProDeo]

There is no such thing as scientist. In reality they are detectives, they can only discover what has already been created. Scientist do not create anything; they can combine elements that already exist

Science is the study how God created.

 

[MatthewG]

Burt Ehrman, moved away from being a professed Christian. At some point or another.

 

[DuckieLady]

But how does the natural man not see asking God for help also as foolishness? It's all connected. When I do pray, I don't feel like anyone hears me.

Ask while feeling like a fool. That's faith. Your job isn't to be the listener as much as the speaker, so you don't necessarily need to feel anything. It's just an act of faith that you will receive what you're asking for.

Repeating this: Your job is not to be the listener.

 

[Riven]

Ask while feeling like a fool. That's faith. Your job isn't to be the listener as much as the speaker, so you don't necessarily need to feel anything. It's just an act of faith that you will receive what you're asking for.

Repeating this: Your job is not to be the listener.

For something touted as a very deep and personal relationship, this sounds very one sided. So we are to pray, to sound like fools to those around us, to ourselves even, and hope that someone is listening?

Plus, if God's will is going to be done regardless, I fail to see how my prayers are going to change his mind. I never understood how Christians reconcile the fact that everyone's choices are known to God in advance, and how you're supposedly going to be judged by the choices you make here on earth.

Doesn't it follow that, before I was even born, God knew whether or not I would be a believer or a heathen? If I can't change God's divine plan for my life, how do I have free will? I doubt that I can make a choice here on earth that God has not already foreseen. Therefore, I can't make a choice that contradicts God's perfect knowledge.

There are Christians that believe we are destined for heaven or hell before we are even born. Pre-destination, I believe it is called. The logic follows, even if it makes God look like a monster. Of course, it then calls into question why Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross. What was the point if we can't choose our own path?

There are so many questions like this. I used to think about this stuff in my high school chapel while the pastors gave their sermons each week.

 

[DuckieLady]

For something touted as a very deep and personal relationship, this sounds very one sided. So we are to pray, to sound like fools to those around us, to ourselves even, and hope that someone is listening?

Plus, if God's will is going to be done regardless, I fail to see how my prayers are going to change his mind. I never understood how Christians reconcile the fact that everyone's choices are known to God in advance, and how you're supposedly going to be judged by the choices you make here on earth.

Doesn't it follow that, before I was even born, God knew whether or not I would be a believer or a heathen? If I can't change God's divine plan for my life, how do I have free will? I doubt that I can make a choice here on earth that God has not already foreseen. Therefore, I can't make a choice that contradicts God's perfect knowledge.

There are Christians that believe we are destined for heaven or hell before we are even born. Pre-destination, I believe it is called. The logic follows, even if it makes God look like a monster. Of course, it then calls into question why Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross. What was the point if we can't choose our own path?

There are so many questions like this. I used to think about this stuff in my high school chapel while the pastors gave their sermons each week.

A lot of Christians end up being able to hear the Holy Spirit, that is one way of how it is a back and forth relationship. You can also feel the Holy Spirit.

In school, I had to learn the balance beam. I was a little kid, but looking down is terrifying and you don't really trust the beam or the person holding your hand, you have no idea what is going to happen and your biggest thought is "I am going to fall."

But if you fall, someone is there to catch you. If you don't, congratulations, you made it.

Eventually, you can walk the balance beam on your own. Just takes practice and time.

Do things without knowing the answer and the answer may catch you off guard.