Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

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242006

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Rev 12:1- 6 begins with.

This is speaking of the birth of the woman which would be Jacob Israel. It also speaks about the fall of Satan and the 1/3. The woman Israel, from Jacob to Joseph "both Josephs NT & OT " was about to give birth to Jesus.
The only place we find the sun moon and stars is in Josephs dream, Jacob surly interpreted it to mean he was the sun, Rachel was the moon and his 11 star brothers, This is the history from beginning to end, from Gen to Rev which we now read. I'll point out how the woman and stars are also the Apostles in the NT.

I don't share in your speculation that the sun, moon, and stars is a correlation to Jacob's dream. As I already proved to you [see my prior post], 12:3 sets forth a different time frame for Satan's one-world gov't than the one to come, as set forth in 13:1. Since Satan has not established a one-world gov't from Adam to present day, one can determine, by default deduction, that the one-world order of 12:3 actually took place in the prior [first] age of time -- long before the 6 days of creation in Gen. 1.

By describing the wonder in 12:3 with the adjective "another", a Bible student knows that the corresponding other wonder, in 12:1, takes place in the first age as well. Likewise, the corresponding events associated with each 'wonder', 12:2 and 12:4, are also first age events.

Accordingly, the Bible student can dismiss your position, without further consideration, as you don't have 12:1-4 placed in the first age.

From Rev 7-12 we see a closer look. he zooms in from here

Jesus caught up to His throne, the woman flees the war breaks out. We see the result of the battle and the announcement is. Now note that this is in heaven not the victory on earth. Those that did not love themselves unto death is surly speaking of all of Johns fellow disciples.

See 12:6 in the KJV -- it is prefaced with the word "And", and not "Then". The war in heaven, 12:7, is future.

Next comes the warning to the earth Woe the dragon has come down to you. See my previous post about the accuser that was his name after the fist fall, and BTW I din't believe that any Angel cast Satan out like lightning. I think it happened in a moment, in the blink of an eye, a flash of light and the Father evicted him from his first home. Read the verses of the prophets for yourself.

I don't understand what point you are making. Satan is currently in heaven as the accuser.

Now read the next "paragraph"

and compare it to this, verse 5 and 6

I did compare and you are still making no sense to me. Satan is in heaven now and will persecute the woman when he is cast out. Perhaps, you need to explain your position better.

It recaps everything above with yet a closer view of the pursuit. Jacobs 11 sons now become the 11 disciples less John. they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.
Summery verse 1-6 history of Israel threw Jesus accention to the prosecution of the of the woman
verse 7-12 the war at the broke out when, her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
verse 13-17 the pursuit of the woman fails, the dragon now turns his attention on her children. woman = Israel the nation / Children = offspring, who keep the commandments of

I believe that I have already proven, and shown you, your errors. 1-4 is the first age. Since you have that time frame wrong, you, naturally, will mess up the rest.

Its not the temple complete, its the order to rebuilt. I have already given you the information read back or finish reading what I have written.

“ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem

Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[sup][c][/sup] shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

O.K. -- where is your proof that it took 483 years to restore and build Jerusalem?? Obviously, you have no proof. The Bible timeline that I use [unverified] places the command being given in 454 B.C. Whether it was forced [back dated from the crucifixion date] or there is independent proof, I contend that it is not relevant. One needs to resolve why the division of the 69 weeks into a 7 week period and a 62 week period. I contend that the 7 weeks were to rebuild Jerusalem and the 62 weeks represents the time from the completion of the rebuilding to the crucifixion.

It is not a gap it is simply a statement setting up the next verse as I have also shown you in Rev. on paragraph sets up the next. Verse 26 states that after that 62nd week yes, but that includes all time from the end of the 69th "as I call it", to eternity. Two statements are made, the Messiah will be cut off and the temple destroyed. The destroyed temple falls outside the last week, that's why its stated the way it is. And just as in Rev, Danial 26 sets the stage for the close up view in verse 27 of the 70th week, which Jesus fulfilled. The outline is in verse 24 [sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks[sup][a][/sup] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,

The 1 week, the 70th is marked separate "NOT CUT " because it is entirely about Christ, from His baptism to His sitting in heaven.
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Then when Stephen stands this marks the end of the 70th week and we soon see the call to Paul and the Gentiles. And I am sorry I don't have a notarized copy of the dates to provide. 69 weeks to the Messiah the 70th week is the Messiahs, not the AC. I dont know how much more scripture I have to reference. I have already given the 7 70s that Peter and Jesus spoke of. I have already pointed you or veteran to the 1 ch of Mark. Where Jesus says the time has been fulfilled. The 69 weeks were up welcome the week of the Messiah. Mark 1:15. The kingdom of God.

Go back and read my prior post again. I proved to you there has to be a gap, irrespective of whether one believes that 70 A.D. or the future return of Christ represents the end of the 70 weeks. It is a historical fact that Jerusalem, and the temple, was destroyed in the year 70 A.D. So, if you contend that the 70th week immediately followed the 69th week without a gap, the burden of proof falls on you to demonstrate that Christ was crucified in year 63 A.D. Of course, most every scholar places the date of Christ's crucifixion between 29 - 33 A.D. If so, there has to be a gap in time between the 69th and 70th week, irrespective on when one believes the 70th week takes place.

I am not going to address your 7 and 10 crowned dragon. It certainly cant help in making Rev ch 12 clear. Read it for what it is a history that reaches 1260 days = years forward from the pursuit of the woman. And there are two being persuaded the woman and her offspring. And yes the next verse 13 is a description of the beast not the dragon but the dragon has picked up some kingdoms along the way, just as Danial saw the future kingdoms, in more than one vision.

Not surprising that you won't address it -- it proves your entire theory to be fatally flawed.

Like I said in this post above. 26 just says after the 7+62 that includes the immediate 70th week, and time into eternity.
27 clearly defines its self as the week.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week
Get that it does not include the temple destruction
Messiah comes and He confirms the covenant the last week

If so, what happened in year 36 - 40 AD to conclude the 70th week??
 

bud02

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Maybe it is just best to agree to the fact that we don't understand one another.
I admit I should have paid better attention in English class. But I dont know how to present it any differently. I have never had such a time, It's not you their are others here that just can,t seem to grasp the picture of Danial that I present.

You did use the term Bible student. Is that in reference to The Bible Students group today, founded by Charles Taze Russell in the mid to late 1800s?

Just the same I have spent a considerable amount of time posting the information, its sad that some don't understand. Not in context of agreeing with me but to just understand my interpretation. Which is not mine to begin with it was taught by the reformers. I really never thought it that difficult. I don't have a problem understanding strange "to me" doctrine. And can I say the age before Gen 2 is a complete mystery to me. I have read shadows of it in very cultist writings, but there just isn't enough scripture for me to dive in.

One thing for certain the Lord continues to revel. Just searching for replies from scripture has lead to more scripture revelation for myself. Praise the Lord. Sometimes it not so much as what I take from reading others, but simply confirming my own convictions. Thats why I insist on scriptural evidence, I have provided plenty on this subject. By the way the SDA will interpret Danial 9and Rev 12 the same way. I am not a seventh day, I have only been in one seventh day church one time. I don't accept Ellen Whites writings as prophetic, and they like many other get all wound up with types of works. But they do IMO have a firm grasp on Danial 9 the same as the reformers.

My own study and background in the traditional teaching as its known as now, "rapture and futurism". It never made sense from the very beginning when I first started learning the word. I always believed in Jesus but in 79 He lead me to now start learning more. I was 21 then. Futurism - today sounds just the same as it did then, a buch of jumping around and veg implications. Besides the fact that the more I learned the more contrary to scripture futurism became. Gods word is like a mosaic picture the more you know the more beautiful the picture becomes, some times you just have to step back and admire Gods wonderment to the world. Anyone who walks in the Spirit knows exactly what Im talking about. The strenght and power at times in my life felt as though Hes right in me, If I opened my mouth the very stars could be called down, have you ever been there?
 

242006

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Maybe it is just best to agree to the fact that we don't understand one another.
I admit I should have paid better attention in English class. But I dont know how to present it any differently. I have never had such a time, It's not you their are others here that just can,t seem to grasp the picture of Danial that I present.

I can't speak for the others; but, I can certainly speak for myself. Your picture of Daniel is not biblical, as you are trying to force an interpretation on the scriptures that does not exist. The 69th week ended with the crucifixion of Christ. There is a gap in time between the 69th and 70th week. You do not accept this Truth. So, you deny all proof that gets in the way of your fantasy.

You did use the term Bible student. Is that in reference to The Bible Students group today, founded by Charles Taze Russell in the mid to late 1800s?

No -- the term 'Bible student' means exactly what it states -- someone that studies the Bible.

Just the same I have spent a considerable amount of time posting the information, its sad that some don't understand. Not in context of agreeing with me but to just understand my interpretation. Which is not mine to begin with it was taught by the reformers. I really never thought it that difficult. I don't have a problem understanding strange "to me" doctrine. And can I say the age before Gen 2 is a complete mystery to me. I have read shadows of it in very cultist writings, but there just isn't enough scripture for me to dive in.

Well, I don't read all of your posts to others and have focused on the posts that you have written in reply to my posts. Hence, if there was pertinent information which you posted to someone else, I easily could have missed it. When I have commented in misunderstanding regarding aspects of your retort to my posts, it is because you have not connected the dots. I have no problem with your strange beliefs -- just as long as I can understand your position. Once I understand, I can show you where it runs afoul of scripture.

Regarding the age before Gen. 1:2, see 2 Pet. 3 for starters. One of the major reasons that some Truth has been hidden can be attributed to the Roman Catholic Church, who, in early church history, were opposed by Gnostics. Hence, any Truths that were mainstay Gnostic beliefs were, thereby, summarily rejected by RCC religious hacks.

My own study and background in the traditional teaching as its known as now, "rapture and futurism". It never made sense from the very beginning when I first started learning the word. I always believed in Jesus but in 79 He lead me to now start learning more. I was 21 then. Futurism - today sounds just the same as it did then, a buch of jumping around and veg implications. Besides the fact that the more I learned the more contrary to scripture futurism became. Gods word is like a mosaic picture the more you know the more beautiful the picture becomes, some times you just have to step back and admire Gods wonderment to the world. Anyone who walks in the Spirit knows exactly what Im talking about. The strenght and power at times in my life felt as though Hes right in me, If I opened my mouth the very stars could be called down, have you ever been there?

Well, if someone is indoctrinated in false doctrine, it is much more difficult for them to learn the Truth then someone that has not been indoctrinated at all. I have had the benefit of not having set foot in a church for a sermon in over 34 years. So, I am able to be a true Bible student -- free from indoctrination.

The question that I have for all those that are 'filled with the spirit' is -- which spirit?? See 1 Tim. 4:1.
 

Surf Rider

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I can't speak for the others; but, I can certainly speak for myself. Your picture of Daniel is not biblical, as you are trying to force an interpretation on the scriptures that does not exist. The 69th week ended with the crucifixion of Christ. There is a gap in time between the 69th and 70th week. You do not accept this Truth. So, you deny all proof that gets in the way of your fantasy.



No -- the term 'Bible student' means exactly what it states -- someone that studies the Bible.



Well, I don't read all of your posts to others and have focused on the posts that you have written in reply to my posts. Hence, if there was pertinent information which you posted to someone else, I easily could have missed it. When I have commented in misunderstanding regarding aspects of your retort to my posts, it is because you have not connected the dots. I have no problem with your strange beliefs -- just as long as I can understand your position. Once I understand, I can show you where it runs afoul of scripture.

Regarding the age before Gen. 1:2, see 2 Pet. 3 for starters. One of the major reasons that some Truth has been hidden can be attributed to the Roman Catholic Church, who, in early church history, were opposed by Gnostics. Hence, any Truths that were mainstay Gnostic beliefs were, thereby, summarily rejected by RCC religious hacks.



Well, if someone is indoctrinated in false doctrine, it is much more difficult for them to learn the Truth then someone that has not been indoctrinated at all. I have had the benefit of not having set foot in a church for a sermon in over 34 years. So, I am able to be a true Bible student -- free from indoctrination.

The question that I have for all those that are 'filled with the spirit' is -- which spirit?? See 1 Tim. 4:1.

I love you, Watchman.

I, too, haven't been to church for years -- it so grieves the Spirit in me that I just can't stand it. So, my wife and kids haven't been to church for years either. And we sure have a blast in the word every day. What a blessing to have kids that find even Leviticus so interesting, that they ask why we have to stop after just a chapter or two! That is God's doing. The fruit falls close to the tree, they say. If the parents have a passionate love and walk with God, the kids will see it and follow in their footsteps. I have been so blessed to have left the church.
 

Surf Rider

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by the way.....

Isn't Daniel 9 info from the angel an explanation of a previous vision that Daniel had? It states that right in that passage, so I believe that to be true. So just what vision was it an explanation for? When that is understood, then take the vision and see if any parts of it have already come to pass, and when, by who (if applicable) and what events/people match anything already documented in history. How much of it is documented to have already taken place? In fact, so much of it was so incredibly accurate, that the disbelievers and hier critics state that that vision was written by somebody other than Daniel after the historical events took place, or that Daniel actually wrote it after those events took place.

It would seem that if even the disbelievers see that that vision took place so incredibly accruately and detailed, perhaps when we read the angel's further details about the spiritual truths/events that coincide with the obvious historicity of the events/people/choronology of the vision, we would have much of our current lies and misconceptions tossed into the trash bin of ignorance and blindness, never again to plague us or hinder us in understanding the prophecy.

Just a silly little concept, isn't it?
 

veteran

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Eloquent speech is never a substitute for God's Truth in His Word. Appears some simpy haven't really done their homework in God's Word on the time when Satan was first judged.

Ezek 28:13-18
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(KJV)

In verse 18 God Himself said He will destroy that cherub by bringing a fire in the midst of him, even bringing him to ashes upon the earth. Since when is that not God's judgment having been declared upon that cherub? Is there some Scripture that reverses God's judgment on that cherub here that we don't know of? This Ezekiel 28 Scripture was written quite a long time before the Book of John. Did Apostle John not know about this Ezekiel 28 Scripture? I'm sure he did know.

Just WHEN did God make that decision to literally destroy that cherub (Satan) by a fire burning in his midst, and turning him to ashes upon the earth?


Isa 30:31-33
31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will He fight with it.
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; He hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
(KJV)

God used the Assyrian as symbolic title for Satan in Ezekiel 31, since we're told there the Assyrian was once in God's Garden of Eden. That's who this "Tophet" has been ordained for "of old". How is that not about Satan already having been judged AND sentenced to perish, even as Tophet has been "ordained of old" for him? That Tophet is a symbolic metaphor for the future "lake of fire" event of Rev.20.

The Ezekiel 28:18 verse about his destruction by fire is still MORE revealing...

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Satan is to be burned to ashes UPON THE EARTH. Where else is that written? In Rev.20:9-10 at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign when Satan comes upon the "camp of the saints" that is upon the earth.


So when our Lord Jesus said in the Book of John that the prince of this world (Satan) is judged, that was about Christ's defeating him upon His cross, which sealed God's judgment of Ezek.28:18 and Isaiah 30:33.


The John verses below have more meaning than the idea that Satan was cast out at Christ's crucifixion.

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(KJV)

That idea of judgment is about this world being condemned. Yet Christ's literal judgment of this world is still to come, and will happen at His return. That's what His cup of wrath and devouring fire is about. That Greek word for "now" (nun) can also mean soon or 'hereafter' (Strong's no. 3568).

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

Was our Lord Jesus specific there that the prince of this world "cometh" right then at His crucifixion? Not necessarily, because of what John later said after Christ's crucifixion...

I Jn 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(KJV)

In Apostle Paul's day the Antichrist had not yet come, for Paul forewarned of that false one's coming in the end of days just prior to Christ's coming and our gathering, and showed that's also the time when that false one would be revealed (2 Thess.2). That still hasn't come to pass yet today. The early Church fathers also still looked to the future about that coming of the Antichrist.

So where was John pulling from when he said they had already heard that the antichrist shall come?

He was referring to our Lord's Olivet discourse when Christ Jesus warned of a specific false messiah that would come doing great signs and wonders to deceive. That is also what Christ was showing in John 14:30, AND in John 12:31 about the prince of this world (Satan, the "dragon") being cast down to this earth in the end of the days for the tribulation time.


WHAT PRETERISTS ARE NOT REVEALING ON THIS THREAD:

Full Preterism holds the false doctrine that our Lord Jesus' second coming happenned at some time already in the past, some believing even back to the days of Christ's Apostles. They treat our Lord Jesus' second coming not as a literal bodily return, like how He ascended to Heaven per Acts 1, but as a spiritual or symbolic type coming only, in spirit.

That false doctrine then leads its believers to accept the idea that they themselves have the duty to create Christ's Kingdom upon this earth now, without Christ's direct bodily presence here with us, but only with His spiritual Presence with us by The Holy Spirit. In other words, that is the false doctrine of a Utopia now, which of course goes totally against God's Word on how His Kingdom is to manifest upon this earth literally at His future bodily return to this earth. Because there's so much direct Bible evidence against those Preterist doctrines, Preterists are not earnest in wanting to readily expose that belief, but want time to impress upon the Christian their milder forms of vain doctrines first, like the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 already being fulfilled.

The DIVIDING LINE is clear:
Either the Christian believes Christ's second coming is still future, and is a bodily coming to this earth in the same manner as He ascended into Heaven per Acts 1, or not. The Full Preterism doctrine is of the "or nots."

This is why Full Preterism must try to establish the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as the completion time of Daniel's final symbolic 70th week, and is also why they look for 'the Antichrist' fulfillment in all the familiar places, to try and prove it's all history, and all past. It's also why they must look to the identity of the false one of 2 Thess.2 as pointing to the idea of 'many antichrists', even to whole peoples as that singular false one Paul warned must first come prior to Christ's return.

One will discover many Churches today, and even military Chaplains, that hold to various forms of that Full Preterist doctrine, and they will mostly deny that the end of this present world is soon to come in our near future. Instead, they actually believe they can create a perfect world today, even if it means appeasement policies of treating all religions as equal paths to God.

This is also why they choose to interpret prophetic adverbs like "near", "at hand", or "last days", to mean a time back in Christ's Apostle's days, and not towards a yet future time to us still. This is also why they put ANYONE that believes Christ's second coming as still future into a category they call FUTURIST, regardless if one is post-trib, pre-trib, pre-wrath, etc.

The Preterist doctrine, especially Full Preterism, because of treating so much Bible prophecy as being past history, and believing falseness that Christ's second coming is a spiritual event instead of a literal event with His bodily return, it is a doctrine neatly aligned with the New World Order globalists today. It serves the globalist's goals for Christian religion within their "one world government", "one world socialist" concept. It doesn't matter that many in that false doctrine have yet to discover its real purpose and the false prophets behind it, for in our near future our Lord Jesus Christ will reveal it to them in His direct Presence on this earth when He returns.
 

bud02

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I guess we for the most part have one thing in common, non of us attend the modern traditional church. I listen to radio ministries.
And no I am not substituting a bit of personal reflection as a post it is what it is.

I still stand by my conviction and might add that no one here has added any scriptural evidence to support their gap theory or you AC theory for 9 27.
Just the simple fact that I believe it speaks of Jesus and all of you it is AC. Please lets here you interpretation regarding the gap and AC>
Like I said before I have provide plenty already, you all have flatly denied any of it as true. So now lay your cards on the table.
And watchman I asure you for what it is worth in person or on a board I am born again. Like I said lets here about Gabriels prophesy about AC, start with his outline in 24. Where is the AC? I believe hes in your head.:unsure:.............................:)

I'll read over your post more closely after work
 

242006

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I love you, Watchman.

I, too, haven't been to church for years -- it so grieves the Spirit in me that I just can't stand it. So, my wife and kids haven't been to church for years either. And we sure have a blast in the word every day. What a blessing to have kids that find even Leviticus so interesting, that they ask why we have to stop after just a chapter or two! That is God's doing. The fruit falls close to the tree, they say. If the parents have a passionate love and walk with God, the kids will see it and follow in their footsteps. I have been so blessed to have left the church.

Thank you so much for your personal witness. I get criticized plenty by church-going people, who don't know squat about the Word. Being free from denominational indoctrination has been a real blessing for me, and my family, as well. If people would simply love the Word, and allow it to guide them, we would not have so much divisive hatred within the community referring to themselves as 'Christians'.

People, having bought into and financially supported denominational indoctrination, are faced with a real dilemma when being shown the Truth of the Word. They either have to do the ostrich and stick their heads in the sand in order to avoid hearing or seeing Truth or accept the Truth and be ostracized within their respective church communities. A vast majority choose the former at the disdain of the latter.
 

242006

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by the way.....

Isn't Daniel 9 info from the angel an explanation of a previous vision that Daniel had? It states that right in that passage, so I believe that to be true. So just what vision was it an explanation for? When that is understood, then take the vision and see if any parts of it have already come to pass, and when, by who (if applicable) and what events/people match anything already documented in history. How much of it is documented to have already taken place? In fact, so much of it was so incredibly accurate, that the disbelievers and hier critics state that that vision was written by somebody other than Daniel after the historical events took place, or that Daniel actually wrote it after those events took place.

You raise another point that makes me be suspicious of the Preterist/Historicist view. Daniel 9 is not the only revelation which God gave. In the book of Daniel, there are 5 separate revelations [chapters 7, 8, 9, 11, and 12]. It appears to me that all of them address 'the endtime'. Now, if the vision of Dan. 9 has already concluded, such vision would be inconsistent with the other 4 revelations in the book. That does not mean that Dan. 9 cannot be a different scenario than the other 4 revelations; however, I have yet to see the Preterist/Historicist address this issue. Perhaps, they think the other 4 revelations have also concluded.

I see nothing in the Dan. 7 and 8 visions which would require further clarification by a Dan. 9 vision. There is commonality in the 7 and 8 visions with respect to the endtime. There is commonality in the Dan. 8 and 9 visions with endtime 'cleansing' of the sanctuary. However, if you look at Dan. 9:20, 22, you can see the specificity with respect to the Dan. 9 vision. Though Daniel was a Jew, he was praying for remittance of sin for all of Israel, and also praying for the temple mount. So, Gabriel's revelation is not just addressing the single tribe of Judah, but, the remaining 11 tribes of Israel as well.

I think that a major point overlooked by the Preterist/Historicist is the finality associated with the Dan. 9 vision. I find the English rendering of "determined", in 9:24, to be a weak translation as the word means 'decreed', with the etymology of being 'cut off''. Hence, one can conclude that the vision speaks to the end of the Israelites and the temple mount. Well, all 12 tribes of ancient Israel are alive and well today, and the temple mount still, in part, exists today. If the Preterist/Historicist view was correct, there would be no Jews, and the other 11 tribes, alive today. Whereas, the Preterist/Historicist will point to the 70 A.D. Roman destruction of the temple as evidence that the Dan. 9 vision had concluded, they do not also claim that all Jews, and the other 11 tribes, were also destroyed. The existence of Jews and the other 11 tribes really, IMO, renders the Preterist/Historicist view fatal.

It would seem that if even the disbelievers see that that vision took place so incredibly accruately and detailed, perhaps when we read the angel's further details about the spiritual truths/events that coincide with the obvious historicity of the events/people/choronology of the vision, we would have much of our current lies and misconceptions tossed into the trash bin of ignorance and blindness, never again to plague us or hinder us in understanding the prophecy.

Just a silly little concept, isn't it?

Well, I, for one, cannot explain why people glum onto such false doctrine and work so hard at trying to justify it. If they would step back and use the brain God gave them, they would see there are gaping holes in the Preterist/Historicist logic and reasoning.
 

242006

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I guess we for the most part have one thing in common, non of us attend the modern traditional church. I listen to radio ministries.
And no I am not substituting a bit of personal reflection as a post it is what it is.

Everyone has something in common.

I still stand by my conviction and might add that no one here has added any scriptural evidence to support their gap theory or you AC theory for 9 27.

You have the right to have wrong convictions. Just because you choose to remain ignorant of the proof, does not mean that the proof was not provided.

Just the simple fact that I believe it speaks of Jesus and all of you it is AC. Please lets here you interpretation regarding the gap and AC>

Yeah...I would have to agree with the others. If you think that 9:27 speaks of Jesus, you are very confused.

Like I said before I have provide plenty already, you all have flatly denied any of it as true. So now lay your cards on the table.

I am sorry -- I have yet to understand your position. Perhaps, you can state the year in which the vision was completed. Are you in agreement with the Preterists that the vision ended in 70 AD with the Roman destruction of the temple?? If so, do you have proof that the command to rebulid Jerusalem and the temple was given 490 years earlier [421 BC]?? Do you have proof that all 12 tribes of Israel were fully destroyed at that time [70 AD]too??
And watchman I asure you for what it is worth in person or on a board I am born again.

That explains why you struggle so much with proper interpretation of scripture. For, if you did understand scripture, you would never make the claim that you are "born again". There is no such thing as a 'born again Christian' in Christianity.

Like I said lets here about Gabriels prophesy about AC, start with his outline in 24. Where is the AC? I believe hes in your head.:unsure:.............................:)

I'll read over your post more closely after work

I already informed you that Satan, de facto, is currently in heaven as the accuser.
 

Surf Rider

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People, having bought into and financially supported denominational indoctrination, are faced with a real dilemma when being shown the Truth of the Word. They either have to do the ostrich and stick their heads in the sand in order to avoid hearing or seeing Truth or accept the Truth and be ostracized within their respective church communities. A vast majority choose the former at the disdain of the latter.

Kind of like "Still, however, even out of the rulers, many did believe on Him. But because of the Pharisees they did not confess, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God." (John 12:42,43)

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." (Mat. 10:37,38)


The heart of man cannot be hidden.

Take the time to go through the visions and ascertain which the angel was sent to expound upon. It took me a while. Some it might be quick for.
 

bud02

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I am sorry -- I have yet to understand your position. Perhaps, you can state the year in which the vision was completed. Are you in agreement with the Preterists that the vision ended in 70 AD with the Roman destruction of the temple?? If so, do you have proof that the command to rebulid Jerusalem and the temple was given 490 years earlier [421 BC]?? Do you have proof that all 12 tribes of Israel were fully destroyed at that time [70 AD]too??

The 70 weeks ended 7 years after Jesus received Johns baptismal, at that time He was anointed and became the Messiah.
John 1:[sup]41[/sup] He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ).
John 4: [sup]25[/sup] The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
[sup]26[/sup] Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.

You can see we have it from Andrew, and Jesus using the word Messiah. This is long before His entry into Jerusalem and the cross. This narrows down the prophesy .
[sup]
25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,

There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Here are the three decreases and of course Satan has blurred the evidence. But we really dont need it we just need to know when Jesus became the Messiah. I have added this as additional evidence, a date that fits Danial 9-25.
Choice 1: (words of Cyrus)
Any of those among you who are of his people -- may their God be with them! -- are now permitted to go up to Jerusalem in Judah, and rebuild the house of the LORD, the God of Israel (Ezra 1:3).

Choice 2: (words of Artaxerxes to Ezra) 457 BC
I decree that any of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom who freely offers to go to Jerusalem may go with you. For you are sent by the king and his seven counselors to make inquiries about Judah and Jerusalem according to the law of your God, which is in your hand, and also to convey the silver and gold that the king and his counselors have freely offered to the God of Israel (Ezra 7:13-15).

Choice 3: (narrative) 444 BC
The words of Nehemiah son of Hacaliah. In the month of Chislev, in the twentieth year, while I was in Susa the capital, one of my brothers, Hanani, came with certain men from Judah; and I asked them about the Jews that survived, those who had escaped the captivity, and about Jerusalem. They replied, "The survivors there in the province who escaped captivity are in great trouble and shame; the wall of Jerusalem is broken down, and its gates have been destroyed by fire." ... In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was served him, I carried the wine and gave it to the king. Now, I had never been sad in his presence before. So the king said to me, "Why is your face sad, since you are not sick? This can only be sadness of the heart." Then I was very much afraid. I said to the king, "May the king live forever! Why should my face not be sad, when the city, the place of my ancestors' graves, lies waste, and its gates have been destroyed by fire?" Then the king said to me, "What do you request?" So I prayed to the God of heaven. Then I said to the king, "If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor with you, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my ancestors' graves, so that I may rebuild it." (Nehemiah 1:1-3, 2:1-5)

Now your camp the futurist use #3 444 BC, If you use a 360 day year you end up with the date when Jesus entered Jerusalem, If you use a solar year you end up at the cross. Hers a link supporting 444 BC the problem like I said is Jesus became Messiah at His baptism. http://www.anchorcro...y_daniel9.shtml

Besides that there was mush fuss over the Jews rebuilding Jerusalem from the surrounding kings. and you can see in #3 that the gate was burned and wall broken. Indicating that they had been built already in 457, the surrounding kings used several different methods to delay or halt the construction threw many years. Not to mention the fact that Messiah "in Hebrew Anointed one" was Messiah for 3.5 years before His entry into Jerusalem and the cross. This date is just to late.

#2 Is the fit it is 457 BC with the solar year with 7+62 weeks we get 27 AD. Right as near as anyone can tell when the Messiah would come. Now this is right at the end of the 7+62 weeks, read Dan 9-25 above. Points to consider when did Jesus become Messiah, I believe its clear from scripture that was at Johns baptism. We can figure that out without a date. The next point is, is there a gap?

Gabriel said 70 weeks are determined the word determined is from 2852 chathak khaw-thak' a primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree:--determine. So now you have this piece of time cut off. Picture a log and you cut of 70 inches. Now as we see Gabriel never uses that word again but he details or marks the log at 7+62. He starts at the point about the command to rebuild Jerusalem "one end of the log" Until Messiah the Prince, so we have the log marked at 7+62 until Messiah. Its the exact time given to the Jews when to expect the Messiah. But as I said the starting point has been obscured throwout History with all the fuss by neighboring kings, resisting and restarts it may not have been clear to the Jews. But looking back we can see just when Jesus became the Messiah, and yes there is a date that corresponds. That leaves 7 years for the Messiah. Just picture it, you have a log and Gabriel puts his tape measure at one end "the command to rebuild" and measures out 7+62 weeks and marks it until Messiah. Note that he only made one mark he did not say cut off until Messiah. He said until Messiah.

Next verse
[sup]26[/sup] “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Heres the confusion "After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off".
Notice in verse 25 Gabriel says From the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, 7+62
Then in this next verse he just says from this one point I marked on the log 7+ 62, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; Do you understand that in one verse he say until Messiah at the same point in time "the same mark on the log" he says AFTER the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; Now that can be anytime after Jesus baptism. It could be a day a year or thousands of years. All he said is AFTER it cant be at this point the Messiah comes. And in the next verse he says the Messiah is cut off at the same mark. He says that some time after this mark he will be cut off. We will see later that it is the center of the last 7 inches or years of time. Its open ended for now and needs to be for the next statement. The next statement falls outside the last week. beyond the end of the log. The destruction of Jerusalem. Lets look at the opening outline he gives. the things that need to happen.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

So far we have the restoration of the temple and Jerusalem. The time of the Messiah, The Messiah shall be cut off but we don't know when yet. And the destruction the city and the sanctuary.
what yet needs to be filled in on this log of time is the last week. Yet to be completed is everything in verse 24. And Gabriel has said nothing about the last week itself until this point verse 27. he has only use the 7+62 week mark. But right below is the last week. not cut off. Remember what he said, Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Last verse

[sup]27[/sup] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

He the "Messiah" shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Middle of the week 3.5 years from His baptism He was crucified. Now we know what verse 26 means, And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; He died for our sins. now we know just when Messiah was cut off in the middle of the last week.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Jesus said I leave your house desolate. but this verse says, "one who makes desolate" well Jesus declared it desolate it was void of the Shicona glory of God The veil was torn at His death. But Gabriel already told us who would do the job of destroying it in verse 26. And the verse finishes.
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Now you can see we are beyond the end of the log again.
Lets recap where we are now, we left off with.

So far we have the restoration of the temple and Jerusalem. The time of the Messiah, The Messiah shall be cut off but we don't know when yet. And the destruction the city and the sanctuary.
what yet needs to be filled in on this log of time is the last week. Yet to be completed is everything in verse 24. And Gabriel has said nothing obout the last week up until this point he has only use the 7+62 week mark.

Highlighted is the 3 events that were left before we looked at the last verse.
So far we have seen the Messiah being cut off. Died on the cross. we have only accounted for 3.5 years of the 7 year piece of log.
And if you don't think Jesus completed verse 24 during His life you need to rediscover the NT.
For this lets look back at the beginning.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


Of the seventy weeks determined for your people "Jews" and for your holy city "Jerusalem"

That leaves 3.5 weeks for the Jews, Jesus has already declared the temple desolate, its of no value to the new covenant and its destruction is already determined somewhere after the 62 weeks. The underlined part has all be fulfilled. The Most Holy is Jesus. And if you what to debate the Most Holy as a place I'll have to go to Rev 12 where Satin was bared from accusing those in Christ. Lets just say Jesus anointed the Most Holy in Heaven after the cross.

I have already given plenty of scripture to support the fact that Jesus came for the House of Israel. But the last 3.5 years was given to the Jews alone. The gift of salvation was theirs and theirs alone threw Jesus.
We first see Stephen stoned and his witness was look
Acts 7:[sup]56[/sup] and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
I believe this marked the end of the 70 week the end of the 3.5 years. that we have left for your people and your holy city.

Next comes Paul come on the scene, with a purpose because the 2852 chathak khaw-thak' a primitive root; properly, to cut off.
piece of time had been fulfilled.
Acts 9:[sup]15[/sup] But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
Confirmation that the time was over.

Next we see Peter
Acts 10: [sup]44[/sup] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. [sup]45[/sup] And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

The special grace that was offered to the Jews alone was completed. This doesn't mean the are locked out of salvation, it simply means that Jesus is now everyone salvation fulling the unconditional promise to Abraham. For threw you all nations of the earth will be blessed.

[sup]21[/sup] Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
[sup]22[/sup] Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. [sup]23[/sup] Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

[sup]Jesus said [/sup] seventy times seven.

Is Jesus quoting Danial? thats for you to decide I can't make it any more clear than I did in this post. If you want more SCRIPTURAL evidence to support it read my previous post.

Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

In fact I have provided at least 12 points in scripture that indicate 9-27 is Jesus.
How many can you provide for a gap?
 

Surf Rider

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regarding the vision that the angel came to give clarification on:
(Dan 2:28) But there is a God in Heaven who reveals secrets and makes known to King Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed are these.

(Dan 2:29) As for you, O king, your thoughts came on your bed, what should happen after this. And He who reveals secrets makes known to you what shall happen.

(Dan 2:30) But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living man, but so that the meaning might be known to the king, and that you might know the thoughts of your heart.

(Dan 2:31) You, O king, were seeing. And, behold! A great image! That great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before you. And its form was dreadful.

(Dan 2:32) This image's head was of fine gold; his breast and his arms were of silver; his belly and his thighs were of bronze;

(Dan 2:33) his legs were of iron; his feet were part of iron and part of clay.

(Dan 2:34) You watched until a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image upon its feet which were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.

(Dan 2:35) Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were broken to pieces together. And they became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors. And the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

(Dan 2:36) This is the dream. And we will tell its meaning before the king.

(Dan 2:37) You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of Heaven has given you a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

(Dan 2:38) And wherever the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens live, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all. You are this head of gold.

(Dan 2:39) And after you shall arise another kingdom lower than you, and another third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

(Dan 2:40) And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron. Since iron crushes and smashes all things; and as the iron that shatters all these, it will crush and shatter.

(Dan 2:41) And as to that which you saw: the feet and toes, part of potters' clay and part of iron; the kingdom shall be divided. But there shall be in it the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.

(Dan 2:42) And as the toes of the feet were part of iron and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.

(Dan 2:43) And as you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mix themselves with the seed of men. But they shall not cling to one another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

(Dan 2:44) And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

(Dan 2:45) Because you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it crushes the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall occur after this. And the dream is certain, and its meaning is sure.

Now that stuff fits what Christ did, quite perfectly. As it says elsewere, (Luk 17:20) And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation.

(Luk 17:21) Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.

And this all fits in perfectly with this: (Dan 9:24) Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

God's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

Now when we look at the vision that had the detail of people, kingdoms, etc., (Selucids, etc.), we see that it is in essence a "zoom-in" on a specific era within the first vision of the king, regarding the image of different metals. This is nothing new to scripture. God did this with Abraham and the various covenants with him, and then "zooms in" in detail for spiritual truth that is of most critical importance, which is simbient with the physical events. Confusion abounds in that with Abraham also, just as in this scenario in Daniel. One such most popular confusion is that the Israelites spent 400 years in slavery. That's a numerical impossibility. Paul, in Galatians, even states that the Israelites received the coventant of Moses 430 years after the extant promise to Abraham. Impossible to have 400 years of slavery with that statement alone. Also, just do the genealogical years given, and we have a max of about 184 years of slavery possible, with 400 years being a mathematical impossibility by the genealogies.

So again, when looking at NT scriptures, and the various ones of pertinence in Daniel and the other prophets, we see that we must keep these things straight, and that "zoom-ins" are common to scripture. In fact, that is done right of the bat in Genesis regarding the creation account, else we must conclude that there were three creations!

Just a little bit of understanding goes a long way to clarifying much ado about nothing, I think.

So there's a little bit as a jump-start for looking afresh at the scriptures regarding the 70 weeks.
 

242006

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Kind of like "Still, however, even out of the rulers, many did believe on Him. But because of the Pharisees they did not confess, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God." (John 12:42,43)

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." (Mat. 10:37,38)


The heart of man cannot be hidden.

Take the time to go through the visions and ascertain which the angel was sent to expound upon. It took me a while. Some it might be quick for.

Well said -- straight from the Word of God. Thank you!
 

bud02

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The reason I am so motivated by Danial 9-24 / 27 is its similar to Mathew 16:18 for Catholics. When you debate catholics with scripture and they come to an impasse they can't resolve they go for tradition, that can not be supported in scripture. When you show them that this to is warned about in the bible they go for Mt 16-18. This gives the Catholic church it authority. In a nut shell that no scripture can be interpreted by no one except the catholic priest. They have the power to bind and loss anything they desire including salvation. Mt 16:18 is the foundation of the RCC.

Danial 9:27 is similar whether you guys realize it or not anyone that works off of the 7 year tribulation, the secret rapture of the church to avoid the seals and bowls judgments. The need for a temple or third temple. The Jews being tricked by Satan. The 70th week still future. Any kind of special reservations for Jews, outside of the salvation that was handed down from the NT. We are still waiting for God to bring salvation to the Jews. All of these concepts hing on Danial 9- 24/ 27. Now that covers about 80% of all Christians in the US. Surprisingly enough most have never sat down and studied Danial 27 the all just agree that 9-27 is the anti christ and there is a gap without ever looking closely at it. It doesn't matter what denomination you are nobody really pays attention to it because they all agree. Instead they are all over the page with trying to the pieces together scripture standing on a false pretense that 27 is AC and not JC.

Watchman this is just wrong. In the first place I have never and will never say the second coming has happened. It is well known that preterisum and futurism were both dreamed up by the RCC in the late 1600's to take the RCC out of the spot light. Im a historicist. If you look you can still see just what its talking about. It looks like you may have C/P something and added your own dialog. For instance this statement.
that they themselves have the duty to create Christ's Kingdom upon this earth now,
Just ask a catholic where Christ kingdom is.

WHAT PRETERISTS ARE NOT REVEALING ON THIS THREAD:

Full Preterism holds the false doctrine that our Lord Jesus' second coming happenned at some time already in the past, some believing even back to the days of Christ's Apostles. They treat our Lord Jesus' second coming not as a literal bodily return, like how He ascended to Heaven per Acts 1, but as a spiritual or symbolic type coming only, in spirit.

That false doctrine then leads its believers to accept the idea that they themselves have the duty to create Christ's Kingdom upon this earth now, without Christ's direct bodily presence here with us, but only with His spiritual Presence with us by The Holy Spirit. In other words, that is the false doctrine of a Utopia now, which of course goes totally against God's Word on how His Kingdom is to manifest upon this earth literally at His future bodily return to this earth. Because there's so much direct Bible evidence against those Preterist doctrines, Preterists are not earnest in wanting to readily expose that belief, but want time to impress upon the Christian their milder forms of vain doctrines first, like the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 already being fulfilled.

If you are right then that makes every one of the reformers a false teacher I could list dozens, I'm in good company. If my interpretation of Dan 27 is wrong then the Catholic church was right in saying the reformers are all heretics. Mathew Henry published his work in 1706, his commentary echos the reformers interpretations. Heres what he said about Danial

Matthew Henry's well-known six-volume Exposition of the Old and New Testaments (1708–1710) or Complete Commentary, originally published in 1706



Thus Christ is the Lord our righteousness, for he is made of God to us righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. By faith we apply this to ourselves and plead it with God, and our faith is imputed to us for righteousness, Rom. 4:3, 5. This is an everlasting righteousness, for Christ, who is our righteousness, and the prince of our peace, is the everlasting Father. It was from everlasting in the counsels of it and will be to everlasting in the consequences of it. The application of it was from the beginning, for Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; and it will be to the end, for he is able to save to the uttermost. It is of everlasting virtue (Heb. 10:12); it is the rock that follows us to Canaan. [3.] He came to seal up the vision and prophecy, all the prophetical visions of the Old Testament, which had reference to the Messiah. He sealed them up, that is, he accomplished them, answered to them to a tittle; all things that were written in the law, the prophets, and the psalms, concerning the Messiah, were fulfilled in him. Thus he confirmed the truth of them as well as his own mission. He sealed them up, that is, he put an end to that method of God’s discovering his mind and will, and took another course by completing the scripture-canon in the New Testament, which is the more sure word of prophecy than that by vision, 2 Pt. 1:19; Heb. 1:1. [4.] He came to anoint the most holy, that is, himself, the Holy One, who was anointed (that is, appointed to his work and qualified for it) by the Holy Ghost, that oil of gladness which he received without measure, above his fellows; or to to anoint the gospel-church, his spiritual temple, or holy place,sanctify and cleanse it, and appropriate it to himself (Eph. 5:26), or to consecrate for us a new and living way into the holiest, by his own blood (Heb. 10:20), as the sanctuary was anointed, Ex. 30:25, etc. He is called Messiah (v. 25, 26), which signifies Christ-Anointed (Jn. 1:41), because he received the unction both for himself and for all that are his. [5.] In order to all this the Messiah must be cut off, must die a violent death, and so be cut off from the land of the living, as was foretold, Isa. 53:8. Hence, when Paul preaches the death of Christ, he says that he preached nothing but what the prophet said should come, Acts 26:22, 23. And thus it behoved Christ to suffer. He must be cut off, but not for himself —not for any sin of his own, but, as Caiaphas prophesied, he must die for the people, in our stead and for our good,—not for any advantage of his own (the glory he purchased for himself was no more than the glory he had before, Jn. 17:4, 5); no; it was to atone for our sins, and to purchase life for us, that he was cut off. [6.] He must confirm the covenant with many. He shall introduce a new covenant between God and man, a covenant of grace, since it had become impossible for us to be saved by a covenant of innocence. This covenant he shall confirm by his doctrine and miracles, by his death and resurrection, by the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper, which are the seals of the New Testament, assuring us that God is willing to accept us upon gospel-terms. His death made his testament of force, and enabled us to claim what is bequeathed by it. He confirmed it to the many, to the common people; the poor were evangelized, when the rulers and Pharisees believed not on him. Or, he confirmed it with many, with the Gentile world. The New Testament was not (like the Old) confined to the Jewish church, but was committed to all nations. Christ gave his life a ransom for many.cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. By offering himself a sacrifice once for all he shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices, shall supercede them and set them aside; when the substance comes the shadows shall be done away. [7.] He must He causes all the peace-offerings to cease when he has made peace by the blood of his cross, and by it confirmed the covenant of peace and reconciliation. By the preaching of his gospel to the world, with which the apostles were entrusted, he took men off from expecting remission by the blood of bulls and goats, and so caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The apostle in his epistle to the Hebrews shows what a better priesthood, altar, and sacrifice, we have now than they had under the law, as a reason why we should hold fast our profession. (3.) Concerning the final destruction of Jerusalem, and of the Jewish church and nation; and this follows immediately upon the cutting off of the Messiah, not only because it was the just punishment of those that put him to death, which was the sin that filled up the measure of their iniquity and brought ruin upon them, but because, as things were, it was necessary to the perfecting of one of the great intentions of his death. He died to take away the ceremonial law, quite to abolish that law of commandments, and to vacate the obligation of it. But the Jews would not be persuaded to quit it; still they kept it up with more zeal than ever; they would hear no talk of parting with it; they stoned Stephen (the first Christian martyr) for saying that Jesus should change the customs which Moses delivered them (Acts 6:14); so that there was no way to abolish the Mosaic economy but by destroying the temple, and the holy city, and the Levitical priesthood, and that whole nation which so incurably doted on them. This was effectually done in less than forty years after the death of Christ, and it was a desolation that could never be repaired to this day. And this is it which is here largely foretold, that the Jews who returned out of captivity might not be overmuch lifted up with the rebuilding of their city and temple, because in process of time they would be finally destroyed, and not as now for seventy years only, but might rather rejoice in hope of the coming of the Messiah, and the setting up of his spiritual kingdom in the world, which should never be destroyed. Now, [1.] It is here foretold that the people of the prince that shall come shall be the instruments of this destruction, that is, the Roman armies, belonging to a monarchy yet to come (Christ is the prince that shall come, and they are employed by him in this service; they are his armies, Mt. 22:7), or the Gentiles (who, though now strangers, shall become the people of the Messiah) shall destroy the Jews. [2.] That the destruction shall be by war, and the end of that war shall be this desolation determined. The wars of the Jews with the Romans were by their own obstinacy made very long and very bloody, and they issued at length in the utter extirpation of that people. [3.] That the city and sanctuary shall in a particular manner be destroyed and laid quite waste. Titus the Roman general would fain have saved the temple, but his soldiers were so enraged against the Jews that he could not restrain them from burning it to the ground, that this prophecy might be fulfilled. [4.] That all the resistance that shall be made to this destruction shall be in vain: The end of it shall be with a flood. It shall be a deluge of destruction, like that which swept away the old world, and which there will be no making head against. [5.] That hereby the sacrifice and oblation shall be made to cease. And it must needs cease when the family of the priests was so extirpated, and the genealogies of it were so confounded, that (they say) there is no man in the world that can prove himself of the seed of Aaron. [6.] that there shall be an overspreading of abominations, a general corruption of the Jewish nation and an abounding of iniquity among them, for which it shall be made desolate, 1 Th. 2:16. Or it is rather to be understood of the armies of the Romans, which were abominable to the Jews (they could not endure them), which overspread the nation, and by which it was made desolate; for these are the words which Christ refers to, Mt. 24:15, When you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, stand in the holy place, then let those who shall be in Judea flee, which is explained Lu. 21:20, When you shall see Jerusalem encompassed with armies then flee. [7.] That the desolation shall be total and final: He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, that is, he shall make it completely desolate. It is a desolation determined, and it will be accomplished to the utmost. And when it is made desolate, it should seem, there is something more determined that is to be poured upon the desolate (v. 27), and what should that be but the spirit of slumber (Rom. 11:8, 25) , that blindness which has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in? And then all Israel shall be saved.
 

Surf Rider

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in the kingdom of heaven right now
A previous post mentioned 360 day years, or a solar year. We have those who speak of a lunar year. Intersting. We see throughout the cultures past, that they often used the lunar, but it was obvious to be errant, and significantly so, thus they constantly adjusted. If they didn't adjust all the time, they'd soon have their fall in spring, and summer in winter. Crazy. We need to give them at least a modicum of common sense. As it turns out, over the years, it would be quite accurate. Some systems had regular adjustment schedules. Many didn't. And most often, it was the priest, or the spiritual authority, that did the manipulating by adding days whenever it was seen to be necessary. And they had to deal with early or late springs, early or late falls, etc.. Yet they lived off of the land, and so they had common sense to the degree that over the years, their adjustments fit rather well, actually. They had to, or everone would be celebrating harvest things in the spring when the planting was happening. It didn't take rocket science. So the argument that is often posited of things such as different year lengths, over that large a time span, is foolish indeed. If we had as much common sense as they did, we wouldn't have so many dates hypothesized.

And we understand by reading records, that the Romans started having their emperors do the adjusting. And then they fluctuated on that, even. And some other cultures tried similarly. All interesting stuff. But in the end, it didn't matter who did it for the nation, it was common sense that it had to be done, and so they did it. And they did it all the time, so that their seasons kept in close sinchronism with the physical, actual seasons of the earth. They had to: their lives were simbiently tied into it. In our vast "expertise" and in our modern world of being so separated from the earth and living off of it and in tune with it, we can easily have the propensity to make most egregious assumptions based upon said ignorance of the very basics of life on this planet.

Seems rather simple and obvious to me. But I'm the odd duck out here, obviously.
 

242006

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The 70 weeks ended 7 years after Jesus received Johns baptismal, at that time He was anointed and became the Messiah.

John 1:[sup]41[/sup] He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ).
John 4: [sup]25[/sup] The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
[sup]26[/sup] Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.

You can see we have it from Andrew, and Jesus using the word Messiah. This is long before His entry into Jerusalem and the cross. This narrows down the prophesy .
[sup]
25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,

There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Here are the three decreases and of course Satan has blurred the evidence. But we really dont need it we just need to know when Jesus became the Messiah. I have added this as additional evidence, a date that fits Danial 9-25.


Now your camp the futurist use #3 444 BC, If you use a 360 day year you end up with the date when Jesus entered Jerusalem, If you use a solar year you end up at the cross. Hers a link supporting 444 BC the problem like I said is Jesus became Messiah at His baptism. http://www.anchorcro...y_daniel9.shtml

Besides that there was mush fuss over the Jews rebuilding Jerusalem from the surrounding kings. and you can see in #3 that the gate was burned and wall broken. Indicating that they had been built already in 457, the surrounding kings used several different methods to delay or halt the construction threw many years. Not to mention the fact that Messiah "in Hebrew Anointed one" was Messiah for 3.5 years before His entry into Jerusalem and the cross. This date is just to late.

#2 Is the fit it is 457 BC with the solar year with 7+62 weeks we get 27 AD. Right as near as anyone can tell when the Messiah would come. Now this is right at the end of the 7+62 weeks, read Dan 9-25 above. Points to consider when did Jesus become Messiah, I believe its clear from scripture that was at Johns baptism. We can figure that out without a date. The next point is, is there a gap?

Gabriel said 70 weeks are determined the word determined is from 2852 chathak khaw-thak' a primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree:--determine. So now you have this piece of time cut off. Picture a log and you cut of 70 inches. Now as we see Gabriel never uses that word again but he details or marks the log at 7+62. He starts at the point about the command to rebuild Jerusalem "one end of the log" Until Messiah the Prince, so we have the log marked at 7+62 until Messiah. Its the exact time given to the Jews when to expect the Messiah. But as I said the starting point has been obscured throwout History with all the fuss by neighboring kings, resisting and restarts it may not have been clear to the Jews. But looking back we can see just when Jesus became the Messiah, and yes there is a date that corresponds. That leaves 7 years for the Messiah. Just picture it, you have a log and Gabriel puts his tape measure at one end "the command to rebuild" and measures out 7+62 weeks and marks it until Messiah. Note that he only made one mark he did not say cut off until Messiah. He said until Messiah.

Next verse
[sup]26[/sup] “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Heres the confusion "After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off".
Notice in verse 25 Gabriel says From the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, 7+62
Then in this next verse he just says from this one point I marked on the log 7+ 62, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; Do you understand that in one verse he say until Messiah at the same point in time "the same mark on the log" he says AFTER the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; Now that can be anytime after Jesus baptism. It could be a day a year or thousands of years. All he said is AFTER it cant be at this point the Messiah comes. And in the next verse he says the Messiah is cut off at the same mark. He says that some time after this mark he will be cut off. We will see later that it is the center of the last 7 inches or years of time. Its open ended for now and needs to be for the next statement. The next statement falls outside the last week. beyond the end of the log. The destruction of Jerusalem. Lets look at the opening outline he gives. the things that need to happen.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

So far we have the restoration of the temple and Jerusalem. The time of the Messiah, The Messiah shall be cut off but we don't know when yet. And the destruction the city and the sanctuary.
what yet needs to be filled in on this log of time is the last week. Yet to be completed is everything in verse 24. And Gabriel has said nothing about the last week itself until this point verse 27. he has only use the 7+62 week mark. But right below is the last week. not cut off. Remember what he said, Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Last verse

[sup]27[/sup] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

He the "Messiah" shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Middle of the week 3.5 years from His baptism He was crucified. Now we know what verse 26 means, And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; He died for our sins. now we know just when Messiah was cut off in the middle of the last week.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Jesus said I leave your house desolate. but this verse says, "one who makes desolate" well Jesus declared it desolate it was void of the Shicona glory of God The veil was torn at His death. But Gabriel already told us who would do the job of destroying it in verse 26. And the verse finishes.
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Now you can see we are beyond the end of the log again.
Lets recap where we are now, we left off with.

So far we have the restoration of the temple and Jerusalem. The time of the Messiah, The Messiah shall be cut off but we don't know when yet. And the destruction the city and the sanctuary.
what yet needs to be filled in on this log of time is the last week. Yet to be completed is everything in verse 24. And Gabriel has said nothing obout the last week up until this point he has only use the 7+62 week mark.

Highlighted is the 3 events that were left before we looked at the last verse.
So far we have seen the Messiah being cut off. Died on the cross. we have only accounted for 3.5 years of the 7 year piece of log.
And if you don't think Jesus completed verse 24 during His life you need to rediscover the NT.
For this lets look back at the beginning.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


Of the seventy weeks determined for your people "Jews" and for your holy city "Jerusalem"

That leaves 3.5 weeks for the Jews, Jesus has already declared the temple desolate, its of no value to the new covenant and its destruction is already determined somewhere after the 62 weeks. The underlined part has all be fulfilled. The Most Holy is Jesus. And if you what to debate the Most Holy as a place I'll have to go to Rev 12 where Satin was bared from accusing those in Christ. Lets just say Jesus anointed the Most Holy in Heaven after the cross.

I have already given plenty of scripture to support the fact that Jesus came for the House of Israel. But the last 3.5 years was given to the Jews alone. The gift of salvation was theirs and theirs alone threw Jesus.
We first see Stephen stoned and his witness was look
Acts 7:[sup]56[/sup] and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
I believe this marked the end of the 70 week the end of the 3.5 years. that we have left for your people and your holy city.

Next comes Paul come on the scene, with a purpose because the 2852 chathak khaw-thak' a primitive root; properly, to cut off.
piece of time had been fulfilled.
Acts 9:[sup]15[/sup] But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
Confirmation that the time was over.

Next we see Peter
Acts 10: [sup]44[/sup] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. [sup]45[/sup] And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

The special grace that was offered to the Jews alone was completed. This doesn't mean the are locked out of salvation, it simply means that Jesus is now everyone salvation fulling the unconditional promise to Abraham. For threw you all nations of the earth will be blessed.

[sup]21[/sup] Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
[sup]22[/sup] Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. [sup]23[/sup] Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

[sup]Jesus said [/sup]seventy times seven.

Is Jesus quoting Danial? thats for you to decide I can't make it any more clear than I did in this post. If you want more SCRIPTURAL evidence to support it read my previous post.

Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

In fact I have provided at least 12 points in scripture that indicate 9-27 is Jesus.
How many can you provide for a gap?

Thank you for taking the time to lay out your position.
 

242006

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To Watchman_2 Surf Rider & Veteran

The reason I am so motivated by Danial 9-24 / 27 is its similar to Mathew 16:18 for Catholics. When you debate catholics with scripture and they come to an impasse they can't resolve they go for tradition, that can not be supported in scripture. When you show them that this to is warned about in the bible they go for Mt 16-18. This gives the Catholic church it authority. In a nut shell that no scripture can be interpreted by no one except the catholic priest. They have the power to bind and loss anything they desire including salvation. Mt 16:18 is the foundation of the RCC.

Danial 9:27 is similar whether you guys realize it or not anyone that works off of the 7 year tribulation, the secret rapture of the church to avoid the seals and bowls judgments. The need for a temple or third temple. The Jews being tricked by Satan. The 70th week still future. Any kind of special reservations for Jews, outside of the salvation that was handed down from the NT. We are still waiting for God to bring salvation to the Jews. All of these concepts hing on Danial 9- 24/ 27. Now that covers about 80% of all Christians in the US. Surprisingly enough most have never sat down and studied Danial 27 the all just agree that 9-27 is the anti christ and there is a gap without ever looking closely at it. It doesn't matter what denomination you are nobody really pays attention to it because they all agree. Instead they are all over the page with trying to the pieces together scripture standing on a false pretense that 27 is AC and not JC.

Watchman this is just wrong. In the first place I have never and will never say the second coming has happened. It is well known that preterisum and futurism were both dreamed up by the RCC in the late 1600's to take the RCC out of the spot light. Im a historicist. If you look you can still see just what its talking about. It looks like you may have C/P something and added your own dialog. For instance this statement.

Whereas, I concur with you regarding Catholics, I certainly disagree with your analysis of Dan. 9. It appears that your prejudice is clouding your judgment
 

242006

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In fact I have provided at least 12 points in scripture that indicate 9-27 is Jesus.
How many can you provide for a gap?

Actually, you have provided nothing. You are just like Rapturists in that you make a presumptive interpretation and, then, provide unrelated scripture, which is not directly on point with the scripture from which you made your presumptive interpretation, and then try to force correlation. Then, you attempt to say that you have provided proof.

So, let's start over again with the basics -- the Word itself.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;



Therein lies your first set of errors in understanding the two subjects. It is not the "Jews", for the Jews are only one of twelve tribes of Israel. The people involved in the vision are all of Israel. In addition, it is not the temple, per se, which is at issue, but is the entire temple mount area.

Gabriel confirms the same -

Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

There is no doubt that the words from Gabriel to Daniel are at the command from God.

Now, the 10 northern tribes had been conquered over 200 years before Judea's captivity in Babylon and Persia. Since these 10 northern tribes were long gone and never to return to Jerusalem to-date, one already logically concludes that the decree thereon Israel is an endtime prophecy.

Since you don't have the subject correct, you can see how the rest of your theory is fatally flawed.




 

bud02

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Actually, you have provided nothing. You are just like Rapturists in that you make a presumptive interpretation and, then, provide unrelated scripture, which is not directly on point with the scripture from which you made your presumptive interpretation, and then try to force correlation. Then, you attempt to say that you have provided proof.

So, let's start over again with the basics -- the Word itself.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;



Therein lies your first set of errors in understanding the two subjects. It is not the "Jews", for the Jews are only one of twelve tribes of Israel. The people involved in the vision are all of Israel. In addition, it is not the temple, per se, which is at issue, but is the entire temple mount area.

Gabriel confirms the same -

Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

There is no doubt that the words from Gabriel to Daniel are at the command from God.

Now, the 10 northern tribes had been conquered over 200 years before Judea's captivity in Babylon and Persia. Since these 10 northern tribes were long gone and never to return to Jerusalem to-date, one already logically concludes that the decree thereon Israel is an endtime prophecy.

Since you don't have the subject correct, you can see how the rest of your theory is fatally flawed.
for simplicity I use "Jew" I am aware of your point, it is impossible for me or you to profess all the details of understanding on a subject in a single post Is you had read them all you would have already seen that I have and do you the term house of Israel. Can I just say your statement is straining at nats and swallowing camels.
Others that my read this with less back ground will certainly know the term Jew, today it is a word that has become rather broad in both its use and meaning.

A previous post mentioned 360 day years, or a solar year. We have those who speak of a lunar year. Intersting. We see throughout the cultures past, that they often used the lunar, but it was obvious to be errant, and significantly so, thus they constantly adjusted. If they didn't adjust all the time, they'd soon have their fall in spring, and summer in winter. Crazy. We need to give them at least a modicum of common sense. As it turns out, over the years, it would be quite accurate. Some systems had regular adjustment schedules. Many didn't. And most often, it was the priest, or the spiritual authority, that did the manipulating by adding days whenever it was seen to be necessary. And they had to deal with early or late springs, early or late falls, etc.. Yet they lived off of the land, and so they had common sense to the degree that over the years, their adjustments fit rather well, actually. They had to, or everone would be celebrating harvest things in the spring when the planting was happening. It didn't take rocket science. So the argument that is often posited of things such as different year lengths, over that large a time span, is foolish indeed. If we had as much common sense as they did, we wouldn't have so many dates hypothesized.

And we understand by reading records, that the Romans started having their emperors do the adjusting. And then they fluctuated on that, even. And some other cultures tried similarly. All interesting stuff. But in the end, it didn't matter who did it for the nation, it was common sense that it had to be done, and so they did it. And they did it all the time, so that their seasons kept in close sinchronism with the physical, actual seasons of the earth. They had to: their lives were simbiently tied into it. In our vast "expertise" and in our modern world of being so separated from the earth and living off of it and in tune with it, we can easily have the propensity to make most egregious assumptions based upon said ignorance of the very basics of life on this planet.

Seems rather simple and obvious to me. But I'm the odd duck out here, obviously.

Like I said you really dont need the time, what you really need to determine is when Jesus received the tile, Messiah.
I replace the 360 day year statement vs solar year with a link to a site that supports futurism, follow the link and scroll down a bit you can read about it. From 457 with straight day = solar year you end up at 27 AD no fancy math just simple addition.