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I haven't "misrepresented" anything you've claimed about the Catholic view on salvation.You have done an amazing job of ignoring everything that I have said in this topic and completely misrepresenting what I did say about Catholicism. Whatever “you guys” you think I am a part of, you have made false accusations against a fellow Christian and your error will be exposed at the last day, when all things are made known.
You have done yourself and the Catholic Church no favors in your quest to turn sympathetic Brothers in Christ who disagree on points of theology into enemies.
I said and mean, because it is true, that YOUR definition of “saved” is not the Protestant definition of saved (and your Catechism only clarifies what you believe, it does not prove that is what the Bible teaches). If you wish to talk TO Protestants, then you will need to learn the definition of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification and use those terms. As long as you insist on calling all three works of God upon the believer “saved”, you will only continue to talk AT Protestants.
The Catholic Church rejects Pelagianism is ALL its forms - "semi" or otherwise.How is this different from the heresy of semi-Pelegianism?
Why has the Catholic Church rejected the teaching of Saint Augustine from when the Church first denounced this heresy?
Thanks for ignoring what I said - yet again.If salvation is in any way by our works, then we are in essence saving ourselves by what we do.
And, in saying that faith = belief + works, you are saying that works save us to a certain extent;
since we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
I haven't "misrepresented" anything you've claimed about the Catholic view on salvation.
And the "You guys" I'm referring to is the anti-Catholic chorus that includes you and several others here on this thread who have completely disregarded everything I've stated about the Catholic position only to hold onto you r moronic presuppositions about what Catholics "believe".
As for the false 16th century Protestant invention of "Eternal Security" - it is anti-Biblical as I have amply shown and not ONE of you has bothered to refute the Scriptural evidence (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
ALL of you have simply attacked me personally instead of addressing the evidence - which does NOT bolster your case . . .
Thanks for ignoring what I said - yet again.
It's blindingly-clear that either you didn't read what I wrote - or you're just a dishonest person.
Take your pick . . .
Now I know that I have not attacked you personally here...so I think that you are exaggerating.ALL of you have simply attacked me personally instead of addressing the evidence - which does NOT bolster your case . . .
or you're just a dishonest person.
My entire point about the works we do as an essential part of our faith are not really “ours” to begin with – so the whole argument about “works salvation” is completely moot. I explained that they were prepared FOR us BY God (Eph. 2:10).All of the verses that speak of losing one's salvation are intended to produce the fear of the LORD in a man's heart so that he will not depart from the Lord (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9).
Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
That eternal security for the one who has a heart faith unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) is a reality that can be seen if you will read and understand John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30.
No one can snatch the believer out of God's hand; and he shall never perish, and he has eternal life (John 10:27-30).
He has passed from death into everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24).
He has everlasting life (John 6:47).
If anyone has the fear of the LORD, he will never walk away (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9).
This is an airtight case for eternal security.
Verses that teach that a man can lose his salvation are intended to produce the fear of the LORD so that a man will fear well enough to walk within the boundaries of salvation.
As long as he walks within those boundaries, his salvation is unshakable. And the fear of the LORD will keep him walking within those boundaries.
It seems to me that you are ignoring what I am saying...because I addressed your statements.
Okay, to be fair – whereas, you and YOU alone didn’t attack me personally, you greatly distorted my position and completely ignored other things I said.Now I know that I have not attacked you personally here...so I think that you are exaggerating.
While you have attacked me personally...
Except I wasn't ignoring you (which was also evident)....And I didn’t attack YOU either.
I said that either you are ignoring what I have said OR you are being dishonest.
I'm certainly not one to ignore the biblical statements that seem to be against eternal security.My entire point about the works we do as an essential part of our faith are not really “ours” to begin with – so the whole argument about “works salvation” is completely moot. I explained that they were prepared FOR us BY God (Eph. 2:10).
Finally – you claimed that the verses of Scripture that you presented are an “airtight” case for Eternal Security. However – in the same breath, you make the CATHOLIC case against it by saying that a person’s salvation is secure – “as long as he walks within the boundaries” sent by God.
That’s PRECISELY what we’ve been saying for 2000 years.
Without our cooperation, with God’s grace - we cannot HOPE to be saved.
Cut and pasted from someone else's work??
WHAT are you talking about??
Apparetly - you haven't been reading and neither have some of your anti-Catholic friends here.
This is evidenced by the fact that you guys have completely perverted the Catholic position on salvation because it feeds your anti-Catholicism.
Let me know when you're ready to have an honest conversation - because so far, you have been completely dishonest . . .
That's very presumptuous of you to to think you would "know" my response to the question, "Are you saved" - and you're dead wrong, by the way.I dont dislike Catholics. And i note that if i talk about a Catholic lie that is related to their Doctrine, the Catholics feel that this is "Hating Catholics".
So, thats a sensitivity issue that is related to feeling persecuted.
This happens to you because you identify yourself MORE as a Catholic then you do as a Christian.
Let me prove it to you., and many here have this same issue, and you not Catholic.
= If you met me on the street and didnt know who i was and i stopped you and asked you...>"are you SAVED". And i tried to hand you a TRACT, ... You would take it to be polite, and then you would tell me....>"yes, im a Catholic".
But you see, i didnt ask you if you were a Catholic, or a charismatic, or a baptist, or a methodist..etc, etc, etc..... i asked you if you were SAVED.
So, the correct answer is. 1. ) Yes. or 2.) Im a Christian.
But your initial response is your FAITH.
You faith is all about being a Catholic.
Think about that..
The fact is, i have high admiration for many believers who were qualified by the CC to be "Saints".
If you read my "Saints" Thread, you'll note my admiration for many of them.
Also, the CC position on salvation is that the Water is necessary.
In God's theology, the BLOOD is necessary.
Those are NOT the same.
Not at ALL - go back and READ what I said.Except I wasn't ignoring you (which was also evident)....
So you were claiming that I was being dishonest.
Nonsense.I'm certainly not one to ignore the biblical statements that seem to be against eternal security.
But I'm also not going to ignore the biblical statements that are for the doctrine, either.
So, a balance must be reached in the realm of our understanding with sola scriptura in mind.
And I have never said that the Catholics are wrong on every issue.
If they can support their position with scripture, and also if there is no scripture that refutes their position, then they would definitely be right on whatever issue is being discussed.
Now in saying that I have made an airtight case for eternal security, I am keeping in mind that a person who is truly born again is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthianss 5:5). This indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption produces the fear of the LORD in the Christian's heart; which endures for ever (Psalms 19:9). The believer will not walk away from Jesus because of this fear (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).
If someone has a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow, faith, then they do not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit and do not have this fear of the LORD. Because they can fall away (Luke 8:13).
But if someone has a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14), their faith is unto everlasting life (John 6:47); which is life that can never come to an end.
One type of faith will result in falling away when tested (Luke 8:13); the other type of faith will stand the test (John 6:47).
If you can determine that you have the type of faith that will stand the test, then you can have absolute assurance that you will never lose your salvation; as long as it is accompanied by a fear of losing it if you were to cross certain boundaries.
It is the nature of your faith that keeps you. And in this, it is not that you are kept by staying within the boundaries; but that you are kept by a faith that fears going outside of them.
There is even fear in faith (Hebrews 11:7).
Jeremiah 32:38-40 shows us the balance between verses that say you can lose your salvation and verses that tell us plainly that such a thing is impossible.
Fact is, it is impossible for those with a certain kind of faith.
No, you haven't. For you to do that, you would have to actually quote the verses that you think so what you think they do so that they can be subjected to scrutiny; rather than just referencing them. The least you can do is reference them in such a manner that we might be able to scroll the mouse over them and see what they say more easily. You do know that if you type out the entire name of the book w/ the reference, the program will put that scripture in blue and we will be able to scroll the mouse over it and read the verse?Nonsense.
Scripture does NOT teach that there are "different" types of born again believers. It teaches that ALL born again believers can fall away back to their former condition by their OWN doing (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
.
You claim to have an "airtight" Scriptural case for Eternal security - but I shot well over a dozen Scriptural holes through that "airtight" case . . .
I believe that I have also answered all of the verses that you have mentioned in one fell swoop, here:Nonsense.
Scripture does NOT teach that there are "different" types of born again believers. It teaches that ALL born again believers can fall away back to their former condition by their OWN doing (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
.
You claim to have an "airtight" Scriptural case for Eternal security - but I shot well over a dozen Scriptural holes through that "airtight" case . . .
As for John 6:47, it says that he who "believes" has eternal life. Biblical belief is NOT simple intellectual assent - but surrender to God's will.No, you haven't. For you to do that, you would have to actually quote the verses that you think so what you think they do so that they can be subjected to scrutiny; rather than just referencing them. The least you can do is reference them in such a manner that we might be able to scroll the mouse over them and see what they say more easily. You do know that if you type out the entire name of the book w/ the reference, the program will put that scripture in blue and we will be able to scroll the mouse over it and read the verse?
And the Bible does indeed teach that there are different types of faith...otherwise there is a contradiction between John 6:47 and Luke 8:13.
Luke 8:13 is clearly about someone who has faith.As for John 6:47, it says that he who "believes" has eternal life. Biblical belief is NOT simple intellectual assent - but surrender to God's will.
It includes:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
As for Luke 8:13 - NOT every example is about BORN AGAIN believers.
As for posting the verses that refute Eternal Security - here are some of the ones I listed: