Do we sow Peace?

[Heart2Soul]

I value your input and I am in no way saying I’m right and you are wrong. I hear what you are saying Stranger. I’ve struggled with these verses. All I’m giving is an opinion maybe it is wrong. But consider for discussion sake...is the word not progressive foward? If bread is not given to dogs and it (or we) stop there we miss that “the dogs eat crumbs from the masters table”.

He said He would bring a sword to divide houses and they (those houses) would fall. It is a good thing but not His House but the enemies that is to fall. His remains built on Peace. Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Progression of the Word forward in Him saying “tonight many will be offended because of Me” to “He who is blessed IS NOT offended in Me”. A sword to divide. Progression foward if we choose not to stay at a house divided falls to “gather in MY name” and with YOU (those that hear His voice and are called of the Father) I leave Peace. How did they go from offended to not? John 20:21-22
[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. [22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them , and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

To scatter or to gather? We gather in His name in that we are blessed and are not offended in Him. We either scatter or gather. What of Jesus saying He who is against me scatters but He Who gather is for Me? Both have purpose in God’s fulfillment of the Word.

Again just an opinion. How do you see it?

Good post and IMO.....the Sword that Jesus is referring to is the Word....(God's word is powerful dividing asunder bone and marrow....etc)…..so Jesus indeed did not come to send peace but to destroy the curse of sin and death with the sword of truth. Then there is the next verse.....I do not believe this to mean Jesus is dividing families....IMO I believe the variance is where one finds the Truth and walks in it (Him) and the other doesn't.
Lastly, IMO....it is prophesied that He will turn the hearts back to each other in the last days.....Luke 1:17 (NIV) And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

 

[Stranger]

Good post and IMO.....the Sword that Jesus is referring to is the Word....(God's word is powerful dividing asunder bone and marrow....etc)…..so Jesus indeed did not come to send peace but to destroy the curse of sin and death with the sword of truth. Then there is the next verse.....I do not believe this to mean Jesus is dividing families....IMO I believe the variance is where one finds the Truth and walks in it (Him) and the other doesn't.
Lastly, IMO....it is prophesied that He will turn the hearts back to each other in the last days.....Luke 1:17 (NIV) And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

You don't believe Jesus is dividing families? A man against his father? The daughter against her mother? Daughter in law against her mother in law? A mans foes shall be they of his own household? (Matt. 10:35-36)

And Jesus said, (Matt. 10:34) "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

You reject the clear statements from Christ.

Stranger

 

[Heart2Soul]

You don't believe Jesus is dividing families? A man against his father? The daughter against her mother? Daughter in law against her mother in law? A mans foes shall be they of his own household? (Matt. 10:35-36)

And Jesus said, (Matt. 10:34) "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

You reject the clear statements from Christ.

Stranger

I believe there is a much deeper knowledge of what He is saying here and that it has to do with the strife between believers and non-believers. We are seeing it today in our very own society. Jesus knew when the Word (sword) was spoken in truth it would expose the hypocrisy of religious leaders as He did with the Pharisees and Sadducees. This truth would cause an uprising against Him and the Truth He spoke because they did not want to repent and accept what He taught as the truth. The Word of God is a powerful sword...
God's Word is Living and Active
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…
So when His Word exposes the intents of the heart it does not bring peace to those who hears it.
Isn't it odd that preachers kids (not saying all of them) who grow up constantly being taught and hearing the Word preached become rebels to living for Christ.
I don't reject anything Jesus teaches....I just don't believe Jesus would intend to deliberately go out and divide families...that is what Satan purposes to do. I just see a generation today that has moved farther and farther away from Christianity and this is where the variance comes from.

 

[Stranger]

I believe there is a much deeper knowledge of what He is saying here and that it has to do with the strife between believers and non-believers. We are seeing it today in our very own society. Jesus knew when the Word (sword) was spoken in truth it would expose the hypocrisy of religious leaders as He did with the Pharisees and Sadducees. This truth would cause an uprising against Him and the Truth He spoke because they did not want to repent and accept what He taught as the truth. The Word of God is a powerful sword...
God's Word is Living and Active
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…
So when His Word exposes the intents of the heart it does not bring peace to those who hears it.
Isn't it odd that preachers kids (not saying all of them) who grow up constantly being taught and hearing the Word preached become rebels to living for Christ.
I don't reject anything Jesus teaches....I just don't believe Jesus would intend to deliberately go out and divide families...that is what Satan purposes to do. I just see a generation today that has moved farther and farther away from Christianity and this is where the variance comes from.

Jesus divides period. And He is clear in (Matt. 10:34-36) that this division will include families also.

God divides. Jesus divides. Unity is only based on Jesus Christ. It is not based on unity for the sake of unity. That is satan's goal.

Did Adam and Eve love Cain? Of course they did. Was that a family divided? You bet.

Stranger

 

[Heart2Soul]

God divides. Jesus divides. Unity is only based on Jesus Christ.

isn't this a contrary statement? God divides, Jesus divides.....unity is based on Jesus? Sounds like He is working against himself here.

 

[Stranger]

isn't this a contrary statement? God divides, Jesus divides.....unity is based on Jesus? Sounds like He is working against himself here.

I don't think so. The only way that I think this can be seen as contrary is if you believe God plans to save everyone. But, not everyone will come to Him, and because not everyone are His, then there will always be the division described in (Matt. 10:34-36).

You see it played out everywhere. Even in our country. Christians are slowly becoming the 'evil people'. Why, because the atheistic liberal left hates Jesus Christ. Our own political divisions can be traced back to Jesus Christ.

Our country was great when we were Christian. The atheistic liberal left, (democratic party), will not allow that again. Jesus Christ divides.

Stranger

 

[Heart2Soul]

Okay...now I understand where you are coming from. Yes Jesus is dividing...separatng the wheat from the tares.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why did Jesus stop in the middle of a verse?...in the middle of a sentence?

Stranger

Because vengeance was coming...but so was comfort for those that mourn. mourn what? Is there any greater to mourn then the death of an only Son?
Jeremiah 6:26
[26] O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us. —but see it doesn’t end there because a Son is received :ashes turn to beauty, tears of sorrow turns to joy...

Matthew 23:31-36
[31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

[33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [34] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

“Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What is vengeance? That is akin to Pilate asking, 'What is truth'?

You know what vengeance is. I know what vengeance is. So does everyone else. You are going to great lengths to redefine a word you dislike associated with God and Christ. Funny, the world despises this word concerning our God also. They mock Christians who worship the God of vengeance.

You want to know what vengeance is? Reread (Is. 63:1-6)

Stranger

I was talking to my daughter last night and she asked, “does it really matter what happens in the end?” And I had to really consider this, and yes...it matters. I grew up being told so much of who God is which honestly, doesn’t line up with the word. So I asked my daughter if some stranger came up and told her they saw her father involved in a shooting at a mall...would she believe it. Of course her answer was “No. I wouldn’t believe it.” I asked why? “because I know my Father.”

I don’t think we know the same Father. Does it bother me? Yes. Since who you say God is, is the same as what I’ve been told my whole life. Which makes me question who is my Father.

 

[Stranger]

Because vengeance was coming...but so was comfort for those that mourn. mourn what? Is there any greater to mourn then the death of an only Son?
Jeremiah 6:26
[26] O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us. —but see it doesn’t end there because a Son is received :ashes turn to beauty, tears of sorrow turns to joy...

Matthew 23:31-36
[31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

[33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [34] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

“Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.”

Yes, vengeance was coming. It was yet future. (Is. 61:2) "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn. "

Christ's first coming, 'to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD' involved His full ministry all the way to the Cross. (Is. 49:8) "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages."

But the Cross is not the 'day of vengeance. And the Cross is not the comfort described in (Is. 61:2). Those that mourn are specifically those believing Israelites, but also to any believers living during the Tribulation. They mourn for the troubles they constantly are subjected to and they mourn to see the kingdom of God come and righteousness permeate the earth. Their comfort comes with the coming of Christ the second time. The day of vengeance is in His heart and He shall bring comfort to His redeemed. (Is. 63:4)

This day of vengeance is spelled out explicitly in (Is. 63:1-6). It is not the Cross. The comfort to those that mourn is not the Cross. It is the destruction of the enemies of God.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, vengeance was coming. It was yet future. (Is. 61:2) "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn. "

Christ's first coming, 'to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD' involved His full ministry all the way to the Cross. (Is. 49:8) "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages."

But the Cross is not the 'day of vengeance. And the Cross is not the comfort described in (Is. 61:2). Those that mourn are specifically those believing Israelites, but also to any believers living during the Tribulation. They mourn for the troubles they constantly are subjected to and they mourn to see the kingdom of God come and righteousness permeate the earth. Their comfort comes with the coming of Christ the second time. The day of vengeance is in His heart and He shall bring comfort to His redeemed. (Is. 63:4)

This day of vengeance is spelled out explicitly in (Is. 63:1-6). It is not the Cross. The comfort to those that mourn is not the Cross. It is the destruction of the enemies of God.

Stranger

Matthew 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Then it is not true.


John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[farouk]

I was talking to my daughter last night and she asked, “does it really matter what happens in the end?” And I had to really consider this, and yes...it matters. I grew up being told so much of who God is which honestly, doesn’t line up with the word. So I asked my daughter if some stranger came up and told her they saw her father involved in a shooting at a mall...would she believe it. Of course her answer was “No. I wouldn’t believe it.” I asked why? “because I know my Father.”

I don’t think we know the same Father. Does it bother me? Yes. Since who you say God is, is the same as what I’ve been told my whole life. Which makes me question who is my Father.

I think the crying 'Abba, Father' as in Romans 8 makes clear the filial relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus, with the Spirit indwelling.

 

[Stranger]

I was talking to my daughter last night and she asked, “does it really matter what happens in the end?” And I had to really consider this, and yes...it matters. I grew up being told so much of who God is which honestly, doesn’t line up with the word. So I asked my daughter if some stranger came up and told her they saw her father involved in a shooting at a mall...would she believe it. Of course her answer was “No. I wouldn’t believe it.” I asked why? “because I know my Father.”

I don’t think we know the same Father. Does it bother me? Yes. Since who you say God is, is the same as what I’ve been told my whole life. Which makes me question who is my Father.

As a believer in Christ we have the same Father. We disagree in some areas which are important but they do not negate our salvation in Christ.

But our doctrine is important. And nothing I have said is contrary to Scripture. I know you don't want God to be like that, but that is what Scripture is saying. Even in the New Testament Paul says of the Second Coming of Christ, (2 Thess. 1:7-9) "And to you who are troubled rest with us,when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,and from the glory of his power;"

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Matthew 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Then it is not true.


John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

What is not true? The verses you give here are true. What is not true?

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think the crying 'Abba, Father' as in Romans 8 makes clear the filial relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus, with the Spirit indwelling.

Romans 8:4-7
[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

What is the righteousness of the law? There again is life and peace.

Ephesians 2:16-17
[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Micah 4:3
[3] And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[Stranger]

I don’t think we know the same Father. Does it bother me? Yes. Since who you say God is, is the same as what I’ve been told my whole life. Which makes me question who is my Father.

My Father is God, Who sent His Son to die a horrible death on the Cross. And that was not a reaction from God. That was always the plan of God. "Christ slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)

Isn't this your Father also?

Why would God come up with a plan like that? Is that the way you would have done it? Though God did it another way then you would have done it, do you reject the God who did this?

In other words, if you can't accept the vengeance of Christ against the enemies of God then why doesn't Christ's crucifixion cause you to question Who your Father is?

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

My Father is God, Who sent His Son to die a horrible death on the Cross. And that was not a reaction from God. That was always the plan of God. "Christ slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)

Isn't this your Father also?

Why would God come up with a plan like that? Is that the way you would have done it? Though God did it another way then you would have done it, do you reject the God who did this?

In other words, if you can't accept the vengeance of Christ against the enemies of God then why doesn't Christ's crucifixion cause you to question Who your Father is?

Stranger

No. It is not the way I would have done it. God sent His Son (God in the flesh) to put an end to man’s constant battle to be good enough. It makes no sense to me. It makes no sense why all this, the temporal with its suffering and loss... the only explanation is to fully display love. He is a love like this world has never known. Perfect. I struggle to see Him destroying His enemies since He sent His only begotten Son to not destory but to save the world. You asked and I could give you scripture but you would argue it, And that (the argument) makes no sense to me. To anyone who has freely received mercy ...if someone tells you they see a small glimmer of a way God may save all...why wouldn’t someone—anyone—be eager to say “I hope so.”? Why would we not search the scriptures for others to have what we have been given while we were yet sinners?

I was moving right along in my denial with a testimony that I was Christian but I didn’t know God at all. It was superficial faith. I thought I had faith but it was a lie. I rarely thought of God. We had no relationship. Then some people came into my life like a whirlwind and they destroyed everything I once was and held dear. One in particular was attached to our life...a young man. It would be too long of a post to tell you how he impacted and harmed my life so much so that I was on my knees every day pleading with God for help. Through this young man’s lack of mercy, I saw mercy (God) for the first time. The young man died at the age of thirty. There wasn’t much about this young man’s life to remember except a son he left behind. This young man never knew love or mercy. he did a lot of things to harm a lot of people but I know this young man did them in ignorance and unbelief. God never revealed himself to him but me instead. I saw a lot of cruel things he did and for a long time I called him a tormentor...but he was the one tormented. His son asked me the other day how a person can be saved and if any “bad” people could ever go to Heaven. Do you want me to tell him that his tormentor(his father)...a young man who was also tormented as a child which is where he learned it, will never receive mercy? he didn’t mention his father but I assumed that was why he asked. What I told his son was how I had received mercy from some very horrible things I had done in my life and when I “get to Heaven” that in return, when God asked about the “bad” people that hurt me ...I will plead for God to have mercy on them...as God had mercy on me. I get to say they had works. They taught me patience, longsuffering, forgiveness, and mercy. No. I don’t believe for a second God is going to torment forever the very ones He sent into my life to break my pride and to bring me to God. I did nothing special to deserve mercy. They (those sent of God to destory the lie of my life) did God’s will and His work by giving me the opportunity to see mercy and to receive grace. We can look in the scriptures for, as you say, hope in their future destruction. God came in the flesh to put away death and destruction that we might have life. You can sniff out torment real easy in the scriptures if that is our aim...but if we are looking for mercy that is in the Word too. Depends on what our hope is. For those that harmed us to get what is coming to them? If so, then we all deserve it. Instead Jesus cried “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” He warned, forgive and you will be forgiven. He warned, have mercy and you will receive mercy. We say we love Him and then do the opposite of what we have been shown.

 

[Stranger]

VictoryinJesus

Indeed, though it makes no sense to you, and you would have done it differently, you recognize that it is true. And what I am saying is that you need to come to that conclusion concerning Christ coming in vengeance and judgement against His enemies, as Scripture says. Your opposition to it is simply based on Christ's first coming. And you want to ignore everything else. The truth is, at Christ first coming, you see a Christ that hid Himself as to Who He was. Yet that is the only Christ you want.

I'm not sure what you mean by your denial and that you were not a Christian at all. We don't need to understand much to turn to God and Christ to be saved.

As to your experience with the man you describe, it is certainly terrible. As to answering anyone's question about whether one went to Heaven or Hell we have to trust God and what He has told us. We are not the ones that send one anywhere. And no where have I discarded mercy and forgiveness. There is mercy and forgiveness but there is also truth and righteousness. It is not I that ignore one side, it is you.

There is mercy and forgiveness, and truth and righteousness in One Person, Jesus Christ. Outside of Him it is not found. This is what I tell people if they asked me if a certain one went to Heaven or Hell. I tell them that is God's decision. What I do know is that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ.

Stranger

 

[Waiting on him]

VictoryinJesus

Indeed, though it makes no sense to you, and you would have done it differently, you recognize that it is true. And what I am saying is that you need to come to that conclusion concerning Christ coming in vengeance and judgement against His enemies, as Scripture says. Your opposition to it is simply based on Christ's first coming. And you want to ignore everything else. The truth is, at Christ first coming, you see a Christ that hid Himself as to Who He was. Yet that is the only Christ you want.

I'm not sure what you mean by your denial and that you were not a Christian at all. We don't need to understand much to turn to God and Christ to be saved.

As to your experience with the man you describe, it is certainly terrible. As to answering anyone's question about whether one went to Heaven or Hell we have to trust God and what He has told us. We are not the ones that send one anywhere. And no where have I discarded mercy and forgiveness. There is mercy and forgiveness but there is also truth and righteousness. It is not I that ignore one side, it is you.

There is mercy and forgiveness, and truth and righteousness in One Person, Jesus Christ. Outside of Him it is not found. This is what I tell people if they asked me if a certain one went to Heaven or Hell. I tell them that is God's decision. What I do know is that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ.

Stranger

Christ didn’t hide himself, he shows us fully who he is.

 

[bbyrd009]

God sent His Son (God in the flesh) to put an end to man’s constant battle to be good enough.

He did? Can you Quote this perspective? Ty