Do you pray in tongues?

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Heart2Soul

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The Book of Romans And James Do Not Apply To Anyone Living Today?

Your Statement And Belief Is Heretical In My Opinion, And Is Against Historical Christian Orthodoxy, I'll Bow Out Of Further Discussion With You In This Thread.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I am back and here is what is truth and what the Holy Spirit put upon my heart to share.....
First of all you imply that the scriptures tell a tale of a time when Jesus walked on the earth teaching and preaching, healing and delivering, raising up disciples to continue His message.....to all the world....He gave them instructions and He gave them a promise that after He was gone He would send another, the Holy Spirit.....the comforter....the Power of God....
So...that does that apply to all of us today?
Second...the Bible is the living word and is active.....Matthew 24:14 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account

If it is alive then how can it not apply to us today....for if it only applies to those of that time then it is not a living word but a historical document of the lives of the apostles during Jesus time.....

The doctrine you teach is a false doctrine....it is a false teaching.....I declare this to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear that the spirit of anti-Christ is rising up and infiltrating every possible level of faith a Christian was given by the Father....(for to each is given a measure of faith).....
I will pray for you....I pray the Spirit of Truth to come upon you and that your eyes will be opened to see and your ears to hear what the Spirit of the Lord has to say and that He will guide you into all truth and into the knowledge and understanding of His Truth, His Hidden Wisdom......to increase you in His Word and that He will give you revelation knowledge of it that is hidden from the world....In Jesus Name.
 

Heart2Soul

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You hold to your denominational doctrines right? Tell me that Jesus told you these scriptures were ceased, done away with, not for today.

Tell me that God the Father told you. Tell me that the Holy Spirit told you.

Can you do this? Do you hear from God? Did Jesus not say that His sheep know His voice? If He were not going to speak there would be no need to know His voice.

When did Jesus tell you that this word regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit and gifts such as speaking in tongues and others were not for now? What were His words?

Surely you know. Or was it your teacher or doctor of divinity, or tradition of the denomination to which you are a signed member.

Tell me friend. What does Jesus say to you? How exactly did He explain that His gifts were indeed recalled. That the scripture

Romans 11:29 KJVS
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Had been revoked? WHAT WERE HIS WORDS? Surely surely you wouldn't accept the words of a mere man that God has put a time limit upon His Holy gifts.

What has Jesus the christ said to you regarding this? Why would He tell you one thing and tens, hundreds of thousands that His word as written, was still true?

Who do we believe? God and His word or you and your MAN MADE DENOMINATION? How is it you follow man's teachings and not God's? What does God say to you?

Those such as you hold to the creation more than the creator. The creation of denominations that honor themselves and tradition more than the savior.

Shall I be shushed by a false teacher spouting that God has gone back on his word? God forbid.
Ummm did you quote the wrong person because I am on your side...lol! I am a Holy Spirit filled woman of God who is obedient to yield myself as a vessel for Him to operate what ever gift He is wanting to manifest at that moment...so Praise God....I am so thankful for the Power of the Holy Spirit in my life! I am thankful for my heavenly Father who loves even enough to chasten me for my own good and still grant His Mercy and Grace upon me when I repent and seek His forgiveness...who encourages me through His Word....Who gave me the greatest gift of all....salvation through my Lord and Saviour Jesus! I am thankful for my Lord and Saviour who laid down His life willingly to save mine from hell....I tell you what.....this is one Powerful Team I have on my side!
 

Truth7t7

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I am back and here is what is truth and what the Holy Spirit put upon my heart to share.....
First of all you imply that the scriptures tell a tale of a time when Jesus walked on the earth teaching and preaching, healing and delivering, raising up disciples to continue His message.....to all the world....He gave them instructions and He gave them a promise that after He was gone He would send another, the Holy Spirit.....the comforter....the Power of God....
So...that does that apply to all of us today?
Second...the Bible is the living word and is active.....Matthew 24:14 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account

If it is alive then how can it not apply to us today....for if it only applies to those of that time then it is not a living word but a historical document of the lives of the apostles during Jesus time.....

The doctrine you teach is a false doctrine....it is a false teaching.....I declare this to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear that the spirit of anti-Christ is rising up and infiltrating every possible level of faith a Christian was given by the Father....(for to each is given a measure of faith).....
I will pray for you....I pray the Spirit of Truth to come upon you and that your eyes will be opened to see and your ears to hear what the Spirit of the Lord has to say and that He will guide you into all truth and into the knowledge and understanding of His Truth, His Hidden Wisdom......to increase you in His Word and that He will give you revelation knowledge of it that is hidden from the world....In Jesus Name.
Appears you replying to the wrong poster, because your claims made are false and don't apply to Truth7t7
 

Ac28

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What is your denomination? Domination I should say. You take the genuine and throw it aside because you see falsity in everything. What sins do you convict of?
I think of every mainstream denominational church on the planet as a demoninational church. They are basically Jewish synagogues teaching doctrine given only to Israel to unsuspecting Gentile sheep. I know of no exceptions. Since the preachers don't rightly divide God's word, they know no more than their flock.They are the reason that maybe only 1 Christian out of 100 has even a vague idea of what the New Testament is really about, and that 1% had to learn it on their own.
 
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Frank Lee

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The emptiness of what I hear from churches frightens me. Thank God He came and got me outside of church walls. Ezekiel 34th chapter is my testimony. I was a sheep not sought after until Jesus had mercy on my wretched soul.

So many steeped in denominationalism and don't read the word for themselves. They quote me scripture but become silent when asked when was it Jesus spoke to them and what did He say when He told them the gifts of the spirit had been recalled.
 
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Truth7t7

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I think of every mainstream denominational church on the planet as a demoninational church. They are basically Jewish synagogues teaching doctrine given only to Israel to unsuspecting Gentile sheep. I know of no exceptions. Since the preachers don't rightly divide God's word, they know no more than their flock.They are the reason that maybe only 1 Christian out of 100 has even a vague idea of what the New Testament is really about, and that 1% had to learn it on their own.
Sounds like truth, something that is kept silent in the buildings called Church.

I believe we have witnessed the "Great Apostasy" before our eyes, because it wasn't the same 40 years ago when I got saved.

1% I agree, 2% would be a gross exaggeation.
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Yes brother, I know. But you are transposing one text unto another, and changing the immediate context based entirely on assumption.

So Phillip had baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 8:16), but they were not yet saved? Why would he baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ if they did not yet believe? You are now contradicting your own arguments I think. You are saying that they believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ, yet they were not yet saved?!

"But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized." (Acts 8:12).

What does this verse say?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What important information are you overlooking in Acts 8th chapter?

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

So when Luke testified this earlier:

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

That is different from believing in Him. They were receiving the Word of God in believing the things Philip had preached about, but that is different than believing in His name in believing in Him. They were believing in the things regarding His name, but not in Him personally yet as you can tell that even Simon's heart was not quite right yet in coming to the Lord as Simon and the people were just following Philip in fanfare over the miracles by Philip.

No one is saved yet until they believed in Him personally before receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost. There are people who believe about Jesus Christ and have heard the Good News in the world today, but have not "come" to Him to "believe" in Him to be saved yet. Those people in Acts 8th chapter were in fanfare mode in coming to Philip to behold miracles in wonderment. Even Simon had to have his sights lifted higher to come to the Lord, thinking he could buy the power from Peter & John to give the Holy Ghost.

You cannot use this reference as proof that a believer can receive the Holy Ghost more than once when it is written that they had not received the promise at their salvation yet. And Romans 8:9 testifies that they were not saved yet until they had received the promise which is by coming to Jesus Christ personally to believe Him rather than just following Philip around to behold the miracles thus just believing in the "things" Philip was talking about.
 

Hidden In Him

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Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning... the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

That is different from believing in Him.

What was Phillip preaching concerning the name of Jesus Christ if his preaching focused on something other than believing in Him?
They were receiving the Word of God in believing the things Philip had preached about, but that is different than believing in His name in believing in Him.

How does one believe in His name without actually believing in Him?
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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What was Phillip preaching concerning the name of Jesus Christ if his preaching focused on something other than believing in Him?

How does one believe in His name without actually believing in Him?

The questions are irrelevant in regards to scripture. Romans 8:9 testify that none of the Samaritans in Acts 8th chapter are His until they had received the promise at their salvation.

The fact that Acts 8th chapter testified that they had not received the promise of the Holy Ghost signifies that they were not exactly believing in Him, but in the things about Him as if they had not come to Him to believe in Him yet. Did not Simon "believed" also in the things Philip had preached about and yet what? Simon had thought he could buy that power to give the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands? But Simon believed in Him? No. Simon believed in the things about Him, but he was being a fan in following Philip as he beheld the miracles along with the rest of the "fans" of Philip.

You have to ask why Luke did not simply say that they had believed in Jesus Christ if that is what had really happened. Why did Luke only reported that they believed in the "things" about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

So once again, you are attempting to use that reference as proof that a believer can receive the Holy Ghost again apart from salvation when Luke testified that they had not received the Holy Ghost at all yet. That also should be proof that they were not coming to & believing in Him yet, but they were open to hearing more about the things Philip preached about to believe in Him, but Peter & John had to come down because the potential believers had their focus on Philip; not Jesus. That is why Luke "bothered" to give the background on the people in how the fanfare of the infamous Simon switched to the now famous & wonderful Philip. They were hearing... but not listening when they were just fans of the miracles seemingly happening by Philip... rather than by Jesus Christ.
 

Hidden In Him

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The questions are irrelevant in regards to scripture.

LoL. The questions were in reference to scripture. You're saying questions regarding scripture are irrelevant to scripture? Why are we having a discussion about scripture if all questions in regard to scripture are irrelevant? :confused:
 

JesusIsFaithful

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LoL. The questions were in reference to scripture. You're saying questions regarding scripture are irrelevant to scripture? Why are we having a discussion about scripture if all questions in regard to scripture are irrelevant? :confused:

Because you are ignoring the direct answers that the other scripture has provided. They were not saved yet because the Holy Ghost had not fallen on any of them. Your inability to see why is on Him to help you see by how they were believing in the things about Him, but not necessarily in Him yet.
 

Hidden In Him

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Your inability to see why is on Him to help you see by how they were believing in the things about Him, but not necessarily in Him yet.

You never answered my question about why Phillip would be baptizing them in Jesus' name if they were not true believers yet. I don't know of anyone anywhere who baptizes people who are not true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I find it hard to believe they would have been doing so in New Testament times either.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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You never answered my question about why Phillip would be baptizing them in Jesus' name if they were not true believers yet. I don't know of anyone anywhere who baptizes people who are not true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I find it hard to believe they would have been doing so in New Testament times either.

If anything, that reference in Acts does prove that water baptism doesn't save since they had not received the Holy Spirit yet.

Indeed, Gentile believers had received the Holy Ghost before water baptism and even before they came forward or confessed that they had believed in Him. Remember?

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Thanks to the Lord, it is obvious to me that it is possible for people to go through the motions of being water baptized but yet have not come to & believed in Jesus Christ when they are just following Philip because they want to see more miracles done by him.

So the problem is how they were believing, but only Jesus can help you see that.

They never had the Holy Ghost at their water baptism. That was reported. Therefore they were not saved yet when their hearts was not right with the Lord when they were following Philip to see more miracles by him rather than come to & believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. Simon's former heart is proof of how the rest of the people were "following" Philip.
 

Hidden In Him

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If anything, that reference in Acts does prove that water baptism doesn't save since they had not received the Holy Spirit yet.

Separate issue. I agree that it doesn't save, but I think Phillip was baptizing true believers. If not, he was really messing up, and probably would have been corrected for it when the apostles showed up.
Indeed, Gentile believers had received the Holy Ghost before water baptism and even before they came forward or confessed that they had believed in Him. Remember?

Yes, but again, that's a separate issue. Would that we all receive the grace Cornelius' house received that day, LoL. But most do not.
Thanks to the Lord, it is obvious to me that it is possible for people to go through the motions of being water baptized but yet have not come to & believed in Jesus Christ when they are just following Philip because they want to see more miracles done by him.

Oopsie. See, you tend to make these assumptions that can't clearly be backed up by the text. I regard Phillip to have been a truly anointed servant of God. As such, he would have known not to baptize people who merely wanted to keep being amazed by miracles. He would have chastised them, lest they make him out to be a magician like Simon.
Simon's former heart is proof of how the rest of the people were "following" Philip.

Another jump. Listen, I understand what you are trying to do with the passage, and I'm not telling you it doesn't have a logic and a consistency to it. I'm simply telling you the foundation of it is presumption. Unless the text actually says these things, you're committing a theological no, no. You have to take the text as is, and trust that the Spirit would be specifying these about Phillip especially if they were true. Your position makes him out to be a little on the spiritually dim side, like he should have had no business evangelizing anyone to begin with if he was that irresponsible in what he was doing.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Separate issue. I agree that it doesn't save, but I think Phillip was baptizing true believers. If not, he was really messing up, and probably would have been corrected for it when the apostles showed up.

You think he was baptizing true believers? And yet the Holy Spirit had not fallen on any of them yet. Hmmm.....

Yes, but again, that's a separate issue. Would that we all receive the grace Cornelius' house received that day, LoL. But most do not.

Just another example of what Jesus was saying that no one can know when a person is born again, but He did signify that by coming to & believing in Him is how one is born again in John 3rd chapter.

So again, it has to deal with how they were believing in the "things" about Him, but obviously, they had not come to Him yet to believe IN Him. Why would Peter & John come down after hearing that they were receiving the Word of God unless they were in the process of coming to & believing in Him and thus not saved yet?

Oopsie. See, you tend to make these assumptions that can't clearly be backed up by the text. I regard Phillip to have been a truly anointed servant of God. As such, he would have known not to baptize people who merely wanted to keep being amazed by miracles. He would have chastised them, lest they make him out to be a magician like Simon.

Then you explain why they had not received the Holy Ghost at all when they were water baptized. It is not an assumption when His words clearly states the promise for all those that come to & believed in Him in receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ at their salvation.

You cannot say they were saved when Acts reported that they had not received the Holy Spirit yet.

Another jump. Listen, I understand what you are trying to do with the passage, and I'm not telling you it doesn't have a logic and a consistency to it. I'm simply telling you the foundation of it is presumption. Unless the text actually says these things, you're committing a theological no, no. You have to take the text as is, and trust that the Spirit would be specifying these about Phillip especially if they were true. Your position makes him out to be a little on the spiritually dim side, like he should have had no business evangelizing anyone to begin with if he was that irresponsible in what he was doing.

Philip was not irresponsible since God was ministering, but God saw that their hearts were not right with Him so that He had to send Peter & John down. Simon is proof of that.

You have to ask Him at that throne of grace why Peter & John had to be sent down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost unless they too understood that they were being fans of Philip because of all the miracles and having trouble seeing that it was Jesus Christ doing the actual miracles.

That was why Luke gave the background about Simon in how his infamy among the people was shifted to the fanfare of this wonderful "Philip". They had blamed Simon for the afflictions of the people and they gave the credit to Philip for the miracles... as Simon did too when Simon gave the credit of giving the Holy Ghost to Peter & John that Simon had thought he could buy that power to do that too.

God has provided enough information for you to discern, but you just keep seeing it as proof text for receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation "again" when it is not. The scripture states clearly that the Holy Spirit had not fallen on any of them and the reason for why Peter & John had to be sent down is something only the Lord can help you see.

So take time out and pray normally to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace without tongues and expect an answer. I'll be praying for you too.
 

Hidden In Him

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Why would Peter & John come down after hearing that they were receiving the Word of God unless they were in the process of coming to & believing in Him and thus not saved yet?

To baptize them in the Holy Spirit, which is what the text says they did.
Then you explain why they had not received the Holy Ghost at all when they were water baptized.

Because Phillip was not equipped to baptize in the Holy Spirit. He was only equipped to baptize in water.
You cannot say they were saved when Acts reported that they had not received the Holy Spirit yet.

If they were baptized in the name of Christ then they were baptized into His death. How can someone be baptized into His death and not be saved? Coming up out of the water symbolized arising in newness of life. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the reality of what that symbolizes, but the symbolism is still in effect and still holds. Salvation is by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, and joining with Him in it by faith.
Philip was not irresponsible since God was ministering, but God saw that their hearts were not right with Him so that He had to send Peter & John down. Simon is proof of that.

LoL. Simon doesn't prove zip. :) All Simon proves is how messed up he was before the apostles got there, and how messed up he stayed after their arrival. You are so tied into this interpretation that I can tell we 'd better hang it up soon. It's gonna go nowhere.
You have to ask Him at that throne of grace why Peter & John had to be sent down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost

No. I have to ask at the throne of grace if I should still be involved in this conversation, LoL. And I'm about to...

And He just said, "Nope!" LoL.

God bless you JesusIsFaithful. Good site name, btw. Good talking to you, and hope we get a chance again sometime.
Blessings,
Your friend, Hidden
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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To baptize them in the Holy Spirit, which is what the text says they did.

Right. So they had not received the Holy Ghost when they were water baptized and thus not saved yet.

Because Phillip was not equipped to baptize in the Holy Spirit. He was only equipped to baptize in water.

Think about what you had just posted. It is akin to Simon thinking Peter & John had power to baptize believers in the Holy Ghost. No one has power to do that except God the Father & Jesus Christ.

By the way, the Lord led Philip by the Spirit to minister to the Ethiopian eunuch and he got saved after he was water baptized. Do consider that.

If they were baptized in the name of Christ then they were baptized into His death. How can someone be baptized into His death and not be saved? Coming up out of the water symbolized arising in newness of life. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the reality of what that symbolizes, but the symbolism is still in effect and still holds. Salvation is by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, and joining with Him in it by faith.

You are referring water baptism as the baptism into His death? I refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit as being baptized into His death. Remember, the Gentiles believers were not water baptized when they had received the promise of the Holy Ghost and so how can they be baptized in the Holy Ghost unless that baptism includes being baptized into His death.

LoL. Simon doesn't prove zip. :) All Simon proves is how messed up he was before the apostles got there, and how messed up he stayed after their arrival. You are so tied into this interpretation that I can tell we 'd better hang it up soon. It's gonna go nowhere.

No. I have to ask at the throne of grace if I should still be involved in this conversation, LoL. And I'm about to...

And He just said, "Nope!" LoL.

God bless you JesusIsFaithful. Good site name, btw. Good talking to you, and hope we get a chance again sometime.
Blessings,
Your friend, Hidden

You are hardly having a conversation with me when you are using that text as proof without realizing what you are trying to prove by it.

Are you trying to prove that not every believer gets the Holy Ghost at their salvation when Romans 8:9 says they do?

Or are you trying to prove that believers are to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues when 1 Corinthians 14:22 says that tongues are not to serve as a sign towards believers that they had received the Holy Ghost personally just so they know that they had?

Or are you trying to prove that believers are not saved until they seek to receive the Holy Spirit by that sign of tongues that you pray by when again 1 Corinthians 14:22 clearly states that tongues are not to serve as a sign toward that believer that they are saved at that moment?

Do explain your use of the text in what you are trying to prove for referring to it in regards to tongues, the Holy Spirit, and salvation.
 

Hidden In Him

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Btw, JIF, while I don't know that I have time to maintain this conversation right now, I can at least address one thing that I think you were hinting at: Does a man need to be born of the Spirit? Yes, he does. But my personal opinion is that this takes place when the word of God becomes planted within him and begins to grow. As Jesus said, "My words are Spirit, and they are life." When Cornelius and his house received Peter into their home, the first thing they received was the preaching of the word. In their case, this was followed immediately with the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but in other cases like we had been discussing here, the baptism was not immediate. The moment of birth to me is not when the baptism takes place but when the word is received within good soil and begins to germinate. He is the Word, and to receive the word is to receive Him.

The reason for all the confusion is that they are not really supposed to be separate events. They are supposed to happen together as happened with Cornelius' household. But when they do take place as separate incidents, the new birth takes place through acceptance of the word, not the baptism. I belonged to the Lord Jesus Christ for many months before I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and I was no more born again after I did. I just experienced a greater empowerment of the Spirit than before (i.e. "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you."), and it ends up being like an increase in the growth of the word since the Holy Spirit is sent as our Teacher (John 16:13).

My apologies that I can't keep up with this right now, but maybe I can return to it later.

God bless you, brother.
HiH