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Does evil exist?

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by univac, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. Shornaal

    Shornaal New Member

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    (Sasha;59338)
    I will when I have a moment to do so, I've got more in my life then just CB. I will also give you scripture to confirm what I'm telling you about.Just for the record, it is not MY power, it is the same power Jesus had. Jesus himself said you will be endowed with power.
    Scripture does not prove anything as it's just a text. It's just as easy for me to write that I have superpowers and say God wrote it, that doesn't make it true.Scripture only provides circular logic: "God exists because he wrote the Bible which says God exists", this is not proof of anything.
     
  2. jeffhughes

    jeffhughes New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;59323)
    Why so much hate in your post? No, I was not implying that at all. You never had that power, neither do I. I believe but its still not good enough to move mountains. In that passage Jesus was talking to his disciples. Not even they had that much faith.
    Hate? No. Frustration? Maybe a little, yes. I get frustrated when people resort to rationalizations rather than answering my questions. But at any rate. I am not quite sure what you're saying here, then. In other gospels, this passage is not connected to the disciples - it's more general in nature:
    Mark 11:22-24 22And Jesus answered saying to them, "®Have faith in God. 23"(S)Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. 24"Therefore I say to you, (T)all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
    Unless "whoever" in this passage means "only the disciples", your argument doesn't hold. In the passage in Matthew, Jesus is talking about demon possession and then goes into moving mountains. In this one, Peter has just pointed out the withered fig tree and is amazed at Jesus' power. Then Jesus goes into this. So I don't think it can be said that he's only speaking to his disciples.(Alpha and Omega;59323)
    Take into consideration of how small a mustard seed is and you will see how little faith one needs. Obviously my faith or anyone else's is inadequate to move mountains.
    Umm...okay? Jesus was saying that it only takes a tiny amount of faith in order to move a mountain. Then you're saying that your faith is inadequate to do so? That completely contradicts what Jesus said, unless you are saying that absolutely every Christian's faith is so small that it's smaller than the proverbial mustard seed. But if that were the case, why wouldn't Jesus say, "You only need the faith of a coconut, one of the largest seeds, and you'll be able to move mountains." In other words, if everyone's faith is smaller than a mustard seed, then a mustard seed ends up being pretty big, doesn't it?(Alpha and Omega;59323)
    What I do not understand is how ME moving mountains or not makes Jesus a liar, not the son of God, or deluded? My faith just like the men who followed him is inadequate to do such things. This does not make Jesus a liar because of someones lack of faith.
    If everyone's faith is so pathetically small, then what Jesus said is a lie. Jesus said that all we need is to say it will be done and not doubt it. I have seen too many people place all their faith in this verse, as they prayed endlessly to be healed of a disease or sickness, and they are never healed. And what happens? The church comes along and says, "Well obviously you just didn't have enough faith." Man. Guilt like that is enough to make anyone doubt, especially when God says you can be healed if you ask, and then you ask and it doesn't happen. But I digress...(Sasha;59338)
    I will when I have a moment to do so, I've got more in my life then just CB. I will also give you scripture to confirm what I'm telling you about.
    Very well then. I look forward to hearing about it.(Sasha;59338)
    Just for the record, it is not MY power, it is the same power Jesus had. Jesus himself said you will be endowed with power.
    Yep, understood. Semantics, really. Jesus' power becomes your power, because it's in you. But I guess technically he still owns the copyright for it. Can use it and distribute it, but can't sell it for a profit, as Simon the sorcerer found out...
     
  3. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Jesus said, greater works shall you do. As Christians, we can do greater works than Jesus. Jeff, do you know anybody that has done 1% of what Jesus done when He was in His flesh. Hummm... must be for another age or Jesus was exaggerating. No one to my knowledge even comes close to what Jesus done. Does that make Jesus a liar? Of course not. Our understanding does not stop the plan of God. God allows us to lay hands on the sick, cast out devils, and many other things according to our maturity. Will you give a four year old child your keys to your car and tell them to go to the store and get some milk. No way. We still have sin in our members and if we did what Jesus done in this state, we couldn't handle it because we would have people coming from everywhere giving us money so they could be delivered or healed.We would be like kids in a candy store but when our bodies are changed, we will do greater works and His Words will come to pass. We are waiting for that day when we shall put on our full salvation ( Rom. 8:23 ). Jeff, just keep waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God ( Rom. 8:19 ) and when that happens you will see things you will not believe. The GOOD NEWS is things are fixing to change ( Hebrews 11:35 ). They were looking for one thing and that was a "BETTER RESURRECTON" when we as overcomers will do in that age more than what Jesus done because HE said so!Logabe
     
  4. jeffhughes

    jeffhughes New Member

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    Hmm. So now I have one person who is telling me that we have this power NOW and can rebuke the storm demons....and another person whom I think is telling me that we just don't have enough faith to exercise this power, though we have it...and yet another person telling me we DON'T in fact have this power, but will receive it at a later time. And yet all three are reasonable interpretations of the same text. Makes you wonder why God couldn't be clearer about this sort of thing. I'm sure that I'd be worried about my children standing up to a hurricane, only to lose miserably...But my question, ultimately, runs deeper than all of this. All this talk of mountain-moving has been tangential to the initial discussion of the problem of evil. My real question is, Why do these problems exist in the first place? Why are there metaphorical mountains to be moved, and why is there disease, disaster, and the like? If these problems did not exist, then perhaps we would not even need this supposed power at all. 'Tis quite the puzzle, it is, to figure out why God would give us power we can't seem to use, to solve the problems that he (ultimately) created, in order to help people that he wouldn't even need to lift a pinky finger to help. Yes sir, quite puzzling, indeed...
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I will just say that some will never understand the bible in His perspective, but rather worldly perspective. I'll just leave it at that.
     
  6. Sasha

    Sasha New Member

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    We should NEVER take other peoples thoughts and opinions as our own, this is why the word says to study to show yourself approved by God. YOU seek, YOU knock, and YOU will find. If you don't believe Gods word, then you certainly will not believe anything I have to say. But, you asked for examples, so, here are a couple.A bad storm was forming, dark clouds, strong winds, rain that turned into hail. My husband and I started praying in the spirit, so we would not respond out of emotions and allow fear to rise up. We then COMMANDED the hail to stop and the winds to die. IMMEDIATELY the hail stopped, and the wind calmed down. No, it did not stop blowing completely, but, seeing the result of God responding to our faith, made our faith grow even more. We also bound satan from damaging our property. We did all this in the name of JESUS CHRIST. Another time it was a tornado headed straight for the town we lived in. It had already blown through two other towns and people were killed, homes destroyed. A friend had called and woke us up, it was about 2 am, and she told us we needed to head for shelter immediately. She told us we only had about 7 minutes, before it would hit our side of town. Once again my husband and I started praying in the spirit and COMMANDE the tornado to dissipate. We reminded satan of who we are in Christ, and no weapon formed against us shall proper, no harm shall come near us. We bound satan from operating against us. Whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Once again we did this in the name of Jesus.We need only the faith the size of a mustard seed. Our faith must grow, just like a mustard seed grows into a tall, strong tree and the birds of the air nests in its branches. Luke 13:19Matthew 17:15-21 “I brought my son to your disciples, and they could not cure him.’ And Jesus answered and said, ‘O UNBELIEVING AND PERVERTED GENERATION, HOW LONG SHALL I BE WITH YOU? HOW LONG SHALL I PUT UP WITH YOU? BRING HIM HERE TO ME.’ The disciples had been sent out to pray, heal (with the power of the Holy Spirit), and cast out demons (with the power of the Holy Spirit). But, this one they could not, when they asked Jesus ‘Why?’ He told them, ‘Because of the littleness of your faith…” Can you believe that? They had enough faith to heal the sick, and cast out demons, and then Jesus said because the littleness of your faith!? Their faith needed to grow even more then where it was. Then Jesus told them that this kind of demon does not go out except by prayer and fasting. What is the purpose of prayer and fasting? It is to build up the spirit man, to put the carnal man down, (emotions, and trying to figure everything out with our carnal minds) and put our full focus on God. How do I know we walk in victory and not defeat? We walk with power and not fear? We are above the circumstance and not beneath it? How do I know God operates through us? Ephesians 6:12 “Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, powers, the world forces of this darkness, and the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”Romans 16:20 “And the God of peace will soon crush satan under your feet.” We are the body of Christ.Psalm 91:13 “You will tread upon the lion and cobra, The young lion and the serpent you will trample down.” GOD OPERATES THROUGH US, IF WE LET HIM.
     
  7. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

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    (Jordan;59361)
    I will just say that some will never understand the bible in His perspective, but rather worldly perspective. I'll just leave it at that.
    If it's really true that some people have no hope of ever understanding the bible correctly, then whose fault is that?
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Lunar;59410)
    (Jordan;59361)
    I will just say that some will never understand the bible in His perspective, but rather worldly perspective. I'll just leave it at that.
    If it's really true that some people have no hope of ever understanding the bible correctly, then whose fault is that?The main person? Satan, that Devil wants us dead. And it is also on free will... a person's choice... like Cain for example, he give all of his life dedicated to Satan.
     
  9. jeffhughes

    jeffhughes New Member

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    (Sasha;59363)
    We should NEVER take other peoples thoughts and opinions as our own, this is why the word says to study to show yourself approved by God. YOU seek, YOU knock, and YOU will find.
    Oh for sure, that is why I attempt to find the truth through logic and reason, rather than trusting the words of a 2000+ year old book. (Sasha;59363)
    If you don't believe Gods word, then you certainly will not believe anything I have to say. But, you asked for examples, so, here are a couple.
    I believe the words of others and of books when they are logically coherent and reasonable to believe. When their argumentation does not use circular logic or run them into contradictions, then I have no trouble believing it [​IMG]At any rate, thank you for your stories. They are very interesting. So I will now give my response to them - I'd appreciate you answering the questions. I ask them not to question the truth of your stories, but rather as a way to determine whether the best explanation for them is a supernatural one. I'm sure you see the importance of determining what is truly supernatural and what is just natural.(Sasha;59363)
    We then COMMANDED the hail to stop and the winds to die. IMMEDIATELY the hail stopped, and the wind calmed down. No, it did not stop blowing completely, but, seeing the result of God responding to our faith, made our faith grow even more. We also bound satan from damaging our property. We did all this in the name of JESUS CHRIST.
    Well, okay, let's see here. As for binding up Satan from damaging your property, I don't know whether that can be proven either way. The fact that you had no damage doesn't necessarily mean that he otherwise would have damaged things. But at any rate, let's deal with the storm thing. I have two questions in regard to this:1. You mentioned that the hail stopped, but that the wind didn't completely stop. I assume that means that the storm was still there, just that it stopped hailing. In other words, the dark clouds were likely still around, etc. Does this mean that there were separate demons controlling each part - like a hail demon, a wind demon, and a dark cloud demon, etc.? So you only stopped one, but not the other?2. Perhaps more importantly, I would like to ask how many times you have prayed in this way for other storms, and the storms have not stopped? Or not immediately? Have you prayed over a storm, and then ten minutes later, it stops, or an hour later it stops? The reason I ask this is that, for any event, as you increase the number of trials, it becomes more likely that it will happen for one of those trials. To give you an example, if I want to roll a six, and I roll the die once, I have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling it. But if I roll it ten times, it's much more likely that I will roll a six on one of those times. A hundred times, and it becomes more likely still. So if you pray for each storm to stop, and then on one of those occasions, it stops immediately as you say, then how do you account for the other times? I would be more likely to chalk up this particular experience to coincidence.(Sasha;59363)
    Once again my husband and I started praying in the spirit and COMMANDE the tornado to dissipate. We reminded satan of who we are in Christ, and no weapon formed against us shall proper, no harm shall come near us. We bound satan from operating against us. Whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Once again we did this in the name of Jesus.
    Tornados are, by nature, unpredictable. They often change course, or they will dissipate only to return somewhere else. If, by commanding the tornado to dissipate, it also completely stopped the entire storm, then that would be impressive. This, I fear, is nothing more than a fortunate circumstance. It is good to hear that you and your house did not suffer damage. But to return to the more basic question, why did God let this tornado occur in the first place?(Sasha;59363)
    GOD OPERATES THROUGH US, IF WE LET HIM.
    Your verses don't mean that much to me. It is one thing to "prove" through the Bible that God works through us. It's another thing to actually demonstrate it. But in these demonstrations, it is important to make sure to separate it from natural explanations, coincidences, and other possibilities.(Jordan;59413)
    The main person? Satan, that Devil wants us dead. And it is also on free will... a person's choice... like Cain for example, he give all of his life dedicated to Satan.
    Alright, so you say that it is Satan's fault that we don't properly understand Scripture. I assume he does this through deception. But then, how does the blame also lie on our free will? If we are deceived, then we do not choose based on reality. For example, if you go into a used car dealership, and the salesman tells you about a car, but knowingly deceives you by not mentioning certain things that are wrong with the car, then if you purchase the car, how was that your fault? You were operating based on his guidance, and he led you astray. Therefore, you were choosing based on the information you had at the time, although that information was incorrect. The fault is not yours, it is the salesman's. So if Satan has sold us a rotten bill of goods, then he should be the one punished, not us.
     
  10. univac

    univac New Member

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    We must take responsibility ourselves for our own actions while in the body, For we will be judged for our actions while in the body. If we choose our own thoughts over Gods then we are our own worst enemies. Satan only tempts us to do so through our feelings (amotion’s) but at the end of the day it is our choice for our destination.
     
  11. Sasha

    Sasha New Member

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  12. jeffhughes

    jeffhughes New Member

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    (univac;59480)
    We must take responsibility ourselves for our own actions while in the body, For we will be judged for our actions while in the body. If we choose our own thoughts over Gods then we are our own worst enemies. Satan only tempts us to do so through our feelings (amotion’s) but at the end of the day it is our choice for our destination.
    Perhaps if God made his thoughts a little clearer, then this problem could be avoided. Or perhaps if God had just destroyed Satan right away, then the problem would have been solved. Or maybe if God made Satan's voice sound exactly like it does in the movies - that deep, low growling voice that just reeks of demonic intention, then it would be easier for us to reject it. The fact that both "God's thoughts" and "Satan's temptations" sound very much like our own thoughts and inner voice makes it, at best, very difficult, if not impossible, to tell which is which. I don't see how this sort of thing is our fault - maybe if God spoke a little louder, or enunciated his words better, then we'd have a lot less sin and suffering in the world. But I guess that makes it God's fault, then, doesn't it, and we can't have that now, can we?(Sasha;59483)
    1 Corinthians 1:18-20 "For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, 'I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.' Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" All your logic and reasoning is foolishness to God.
    I find this very distasteful. Christians, at least all the ones I've ever been around, LOVE to tell everyone that their faith is a "reasonable faith." I mean, even William Lane Craig, one of the most prominent apologists out there, has a site called "Reasonable Faith." In other words, using man's reason, we can see that Christianity is the "best explanation." But as soon as someone comes along with a contradiction, problem, or difficulty, this verse, or another like it, is immediately thrown in - "Our reasoning is foolishness to God! Just have faith!"Let me give you the facts, according to Christianity. God created us - and he created us in his image. Therefore, since we have logic and reasoning skills, he has given them to us. He also wants us to use them, like the parable of the talents. He has given us the gift of reason, and he expects us to use it - for something, anyway. And what could be more important than finding out about our Creator himself? According to the Bible, nothing. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." God obviously places a pretty high priority on us finding out who he is and what he wants. And what is the only way to do this? Reason.But what about the Bible, you say? That still requires reason. We must reasonably interpret the words on the page, as all literature must be interpreted. We must reasonably apply it to our lives, and we must reasonably carry it out. To deny any of this is insanity. Reason is an inescapable part of life. We reason about everything from whether a chair will hold our weight, to whether cause and effect really applies, to what the meaning of life is. It is undeniable. Even by saying, "We must reject reason," you still put forth an argument. You are appealing to reason to advance an argument to reject reason.So to tell me that somehow we must blindly accept the truth of God's word without using reason, is simply absurd. Christians love to flip-flop between "our faith is a reasonable faith" and "we just need to have faith and trust God." Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It doesn't work that way. You may either use reason to evaluate the truth of your beliefs, or you may reject it altogether and live your life in an insane asylum, not knowing whether cause leads to effect or if the sun will rise the next morning. There is no middle ground.(Sasha;59483)
    1 Corinthians 2:4-5 "My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."Matt 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, least they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." I pray that you find what your looking for. I can not help you understand faith when you don't even believe in the one who created it. Spiritual matters are spiritual discerned, and your natural mind (brain) is not able to understand the things of God at this time.God Bless you.
    Thank you for completely ignoring my questions and the main thrust of my argument. You are obviously blinded to even simple inductive reasoning, even if such reasoning would support your faith. I was not trying to deny that your experiences were real, nor was I trying to prove they weren't. I merely asked questions and put forth alternate explanations. That's what all reasonable people do. But you are determined to be unreasonable. Very well. I don't know why I waste my time. You obviously don't feel the need to respect me enough to answer my questions.As for me, I believe I have found what I am looking for. I have found a coherent view of the world that doesn't attempt to deny the most basic observations of the world around me. I no longer see any evidence to show that a God exists, and I have realized that all the evidence I used to see was wishful thinking and better explained in other ways. I am still willing to believe in a God, if only he were to show himself in some way. I have prayed numerous times, in painful agony, for him to give me some scrap of unambiguous evidence - some way that I can at least have some hope to continue searching for him. And he has given me nothing. So either he does not care, or he does not exist. Either way, he is not a God I wish to serve any longer.If you have some way to show me that God is more than a mere fantasy, then I would be more than glad to hear it. The idea of a loving God up there is a very pleasant one. But as you are convinced that I must simply throw up my hands and "just believe", then you give me no fulfilling answers.Oh, and thank you for calling me swine. Much appreciated.
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Jeff, God is not going to put someone in Hell because of their ignorance. It's because people chose Satan over God.Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
     
  14. Shornaal

    Shornaal New Member

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    Jeff, God is not going to put someone in Hell because of their ignorance. It's because people chose Satan over God.[/COLOR][/B][/I]
    So atheists are free to go? Great!
     
  15. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (Shornaal;59524)
    So atheists are free to go? Great!
    Free to go into the millenium where they will be taught and then choose between God or satan at the end. No, it's not a free pass.
     
  16. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    God put us ALL in unbelief that He might have MERCY on ALL ( Rom. 11:32). Logabe
     
  17. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Jeff, God loves you. This is God's plan and He created the Serpent for a reason (Gen. 3:1). God knew man was going to sin because He is the one that put the tree and the serpent in the garden. Ultimately, that makes God responsible because He created us and the serpent and what you create you own. He had plans to put man in vanity and not willing on man's part. Did God come to you Jeff...and ask did you want to come into this vanity called world. No, He just put us here (Rom. 8:21). Read it, and accept it, and God will give you understanding by the Spirit of the Law and not the Letter of the Law.Logabe
     
  18. jeffhughes

    jeffhughes New Member

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    (Jordan;59517)
    Jeff, God is not going to put someone in Hell because of their ignorance. It's because people chose Satan over God.
    I'm unsure why you're bringing this up. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think anyone had brought up the topic of hell here. The discussion was about why there is evil and suffering in the world, and the whole deal about moving mountains. Anyways, thanks for the out-of-context verse that is clearly referring to Israel, and is clearly talking about the exile.(Shornaal;59524)
    So atheists are free to go? Great!
    Haha hooray! Yeah...I'm definitely not choosing Satan, since, well, I don't believe in him either.(logabe;59539)
    God put us ALL in unbelief that He might have MERCY on ALL ( Rom. 11:32). Logabe
    Wait wait...so you're saying that God intentionally made us not believe? Like hardening Pharoah's heart? Then if he had mercy on ALL, why are there still non-Christians? If everyone started at the same place, and he had mercy on all, then why are there still like three billion people on this planet that aren't Christian? This makes God out to be malicious...(logabe;59541)
    Jeff, God loves you. This is God's plan and He created the Serpent for a reason (Gen. 3:1). God knew man was going to sin because He is the one that put the tree and the serpent in the garden. Ultimately, that makes God responsible because He created us and the serpent and what you create you own. He had plans to put man in vanity and not willing on man's part. Did God come to you Jeff...and ask did you want to come into this vanity called world. No, He just put us here (Rom. 8:21). Read it, and accept it, and God will give you understanding by the Spirit of the Law and not the Letter of the Law.Logabe
    Again, this makes God into a malicious tyrant. This means God sent sin into the world on purpose - I guess to make himself look like a superhero? Well that's just vanity if I ever heard of it. Who causes unimaginable harm on others just to make themselves look good? Not to mention that, as you point out, he is doing this on unwilling participants - people who never had any choice in the matter. If what you say is true, then I would not wish to serve this God anyways. Anyone who intentionally causes harm to someone else for no good reason is vicious and cruel. If this is God's plan....it stinks.
     
  19. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Jeff, you couldn't screw the PLAN of GOD up if you wanted to. God will save you whether you want to be reconciled or not. You didn't sin in the beginning...Adam did and you're not going to have anything to do with you're salvation because that was also done outside without your permission by JESUS. Paul used Satan and when we all mature, we will use Satan ( evil) also ( 1st Timothy 1:20 ). Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. There's your evil, and Paul knew the mind and character of God, so he used Satan to correct them, just like God does. Don't miss that Jeff. God just turned evil into good. Want another one, ( 1st Cor. 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.Get that Jeff, because it will set you free. Paul turned him over to Satan to save him.I didn't say that, I just believe it because I think Paul was pretty sharp. Don't you think? Mediate upon these things and God will give you understanding by the Spirit.Logabe
     
  20. jeffhughes

    jeffhughes New Member

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    logabe,You say that I cannot screw up the plan of God. This means that God's plan is sovereign, and no matter what, everyone will do God's will. Correct? Therefore, everything that I do is in accordance, ultimately, with his will. Even my rejection of Christianity, then, was already foreseen and planned out by him, before I even existed. Why would this be part of God's plan?But more importantly, if God can do anything he wants to, and he has planned out everything that will happen, why, again, does evil exist? God could just as easily have accomplished everything without the need for evil or sin or suffering at all. Therefore, God knowingly included evil into the plan, despite the fact that he could have done without it. This denies the all-loving nature of God, for why would anyone intentionally add in evil and suffering when it was not necessary?
     
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