Hi,This thread is interesting.I have some questions if someone has the time please.How can you tell whether your worldviewGod is doing evil to make you love him or if its your worldviewSatan doing it as part of his activities ? Which was responsible for 9-11 for example ?Also is it possible for Satan to do good . . . just to spite your worldviewGod ??
Does evil exist?
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As Creator, God's will is sovereign. As Creator of heaven and earth, He OWNS all things. In Lev. 25:23 the law says that “the land shall not be sold permanently,” because God OWNS it by right of creation. Yet each tribe and family in Israel had certainly been given authority over their portion of God's land. There is no contradiction or exclusiveness in establishing God's sovereignty AND man's authority.When God created the Garden, He included a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He did not put a fence around it. In effect, He “dug a pit,” and did not cover it. As a result, the “ox,” fell into the pit. Who is liable? God is liable, according to His own law. But, you say, Adam was fully liable, for he fell of his own free will. Whether Adam had a free will or not is beside the point. The fact is that God owned Adam by right of creation. Furthermore, He allowed it to happen—in essence, by digging a pit without covering it.. Others say the devil did it, because he tempted Eve. Alright, who created the devil? We cannot shift the blame so easily, because a Creator owns and is responsible for that which He creates, regardless of what the creature does. Certainly, God could have prevented the devil from tempting Eve. The devil's freedom to tempt Eve was not due to his ability to outrun God or because he was too powerful for God to subject to divine judgment. He was not even smart enough to take God by surprise—though some people actually teach this! Ultimately, our view must be determined by God's own decision and judgment. Thus, we find Him being “ slain from the foundation of the world ” (Rev. 13:8). He actually took responsibility upon Himself for the actions of His creation. Yet this did not obligate Him to take SOLE responsibility, for He had given man authority, and that authority made them accountable as well. Hence, we see God judging man according to his works (Rev. 20:12, 13). Judgment itself proves man's authority and the fact that he trespassed outside of his lawful boundaries by his will. Man does have a will, but to use the term "free will" is usually inaccurate, because most people use the term dualistically to limit God's sovereign will over man's will. Logabe
In Lev. 25:23 we see that man's land could not be sold permanently. He had the authority to sell it only until the year of Jubilee. The Jubilee placed a limit upon man's use of God's land. Man is made of the dust of the ground (LAND) (Gen. 2:7), and so our bodies are part of His “land.” We have been given authority over our "land," even as Israel was given authority over their inheritance. But God still retains sovereignty. Thus, while we may “sell ourselves” into sin (or to “the devil,” if you prefer), we do not have the authority to do so in perpetuity. Our “land” must always return to God—not because of the will of man, but because of the sovereign will of the ultimate Land Owner, who is God Himself. No man can incur a debt to sin that is so overwhelming that the Law of Jubilee cannot conquer it in the end by grace alone. God's will always trumps man's will in the end. It is done by grace. Meanwhile, however, God is teaching man the proper use of will through the experience of evil, for without such experiences and “choices,” there is no way for him to learn, mature, and become a son of God. In the realm of man's choices, man must learn the laws of God to know good and evil, right and wrong, sin and righteousness. The soul naturally interprets good and evil as opposing one another. Yet as the soul submits to the spirit, it yields to a higher understanding that includes the purpose of all things and sees history as a singular plan of God that is very good. It gives up its pursuit of power over the spirit and, instead, submits its limited understanding, will, and authority, to the greater understanding, will, and sovereignty of the spirit. As the soul gives up its own illusion of “free will,” which is really just the pursuit of power in disguise, it begins to find TRUE freedom of will by submitting to the sovereign will of God functioning through one's spirit. In putting on the mind of Christ and the power of Love, the soul is set free of bondage to its own limited perspective. In its place it adopts the an understanding of the Love of God proceeding from the spirit. The soul becomes a love-slave to the spirit. And in the bonds of Love, the soul's will finds true freedom. Not many arrive at this place during their allotted life time. But God is bringing forth a first fruits company of sons for whose manifestation all creation groans (Rom. 8:22). They are called as sons to do the works of their Father and through the proper use of their will and authority, they will show all others by example the path by which they may all become the sons of God. When that last enemy (the second death) is destroyed, God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:26-28). Logabe
Yet the Bible shows that God has always held man liable for sin as well. On what legal ground? Because man has God-given authority in the earth (Gen. 1:26). Thus, in the law, if a man goes on a journey and entrusts his property to a neighbor for safe keeping, and if that property is destroyed or damaged, the neighbor can be held liable (Ex. 22:7-13). Liability in such cases is shared between the owner and the responsible neighbor, depending on the situation. If the property were stolen without the neighbor being negligent or complicit in the theft, the owner bore the full liability for the theft. If, on the other hand, the neighbor was negligent or complicit in the theft, then he was held liable. God always holds himself liable according to His level of sovereignty based upon His ownership. But He also holds man liable according to the level of each man's authority. This makes it possible for God to judge man lawfully, and we see the judgments of God throughout history. Yet His judgments are restrained (not everlasting), because God holds Himself liable for imposing mortality upon mankind, on which they sinned. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve sinned, and God held them liable for that sin, according to their level of authority. But at the same time, God held Himself ultimately liable on His level of sovereignty based upon ownership. Hence, He came to earth to die for the sin of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 says, 2 And He Himself is the Propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. There is no contradiction or double jeopardy in this. Both God and man are held liable, each on their own level. Christians tend to remove all liability from God in order to keep Him from being tainted by Adam's sin. But this is done at the expense of His sovereignty, and it ignores the simple fact that God created all things. Such “solutions” proceed from our dualistic reasonings, where we argue about whether God is sovereign or man has “free will.” There is no such biblical phrase as “free will.” Let us stay with the biblical term “authority,” which keeps us from straying into dualistic arguments that only make God's will and man's will mutually exclusive. Logabe
Logabe, you write much but say very little. Let me try to explain how you haven't answered the question, "Why is there evil?"
You're absolutely right. God planted the tree there, not only knowing that Adam and Eve could eat from it, but knowing that they would. Perhaps Adam may also be liable, but the question remains, "Why would God put the tree there in the first place?" Why would God set them up for the fall?logabe;59884]There is no contradiction or exclusiveness in establishing God said:
This right here is circular. You are saying' date=' man is responsible, and therefore can rightfully be judged, and then you say that judgment proves that man is reponsible. But at any rate, we'll let that one go, since it is not really part of the main argument. See how nice I am? [img']style_emoticons//tongue.gif[/img]logabe;59884]Certainly said:
This is a blind assertion. Now you are saying that God must use evil in order to teach us. How do you support this? Do parents have to use evil to teach their children to become responsible adults? Of course not. Certainly, sometimes punishment is needed, but this is inherently different than "evil". What lesson does a hurricane teach us? What teaching purpose is there to fatal diseases? These seem to be inflicted on us not for our learning experiences, but rather out of cruelty. If "the rain falls on both the wicked and the righteous", then how do we learn from this which to do? Punishment must be used to punish wrongdoing. If you punish both, it loses its effect.No, in the real world, good deeds are not always rewarded, and bad deeds are not always punished. This gives no indication of teaching by God.logabe;59885]In Lev. 25:23 we see that man said:
logabe;59885]In the realm of man said:
Has this thread become confusing to anyone else? or is it just me? ((( univac))) thanks again for sharing your story..
ray3:
ray3:(Lookin'4wardtoHeaven;59911)
Has this thread become confusing to anyone else? or is it just me? ((( univac))) thanks again for sharing your story..ray3:
In a way, yes. In a way, no. Yes because, there is and will have situation where nonChristians are just trying to confuse one's Faith because they won't understand what He is saying. No, because, as long you know what you are talking about, you are fine.
Has this thread become confusing to anyone else? or is it just me? ((( univac))) thanks again for sharing your story..
ray3:In a way, yes. In a way, no. Yes because, there is and will have situation where nonChristians are just trying to confuse one's Faith because they won't understand what He is saying. No, because, as long you know what you are talking about, you are fine.
(Lookin'4wardtoHeaven;59911)
Has this thread become confusing to anyone else? or is it just me? ((( univac))) thanks again for sharing your story..ray3:
Haha yes, I think it has. Although I've been following it (and participating in it) from the beginning.For those of you at home keeping score, here's a recap:A Christian posts a reply about how the problem of evil can be resolved. Then I point out flaws in their argumentation, and ask questions of them that never get answered. Then another Christian posts another reply with a completely different theology, but one that still doesn't resolve the problem of evil. I point out flaws in their argumentation, and ask questions of them that also never get answered. Then the original one comes back and says essentially the same thing they said before. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.That's my take on this topic anyway
(Jordan;59913)
In a way, yes. In a way, no. Yes because, there is and will have situation where nonChristians are just trying to confuse one's Faith because they won't understand what He is saying. No, because, as long you know what you are talking about, you are fine.
I am a firm believer that Truth cannot be contradictory. I am under the impression that Christianity - and especially the concept of God - contains inherent contradictions that cannot be resolved. I am not trying to confuse your faith, but rather I am questioning it to see if there is a resolution. If you are able to provide one, great! But as far as I've seen, this hasn't been the case.As for whether I understand what God is saying or not, well, please keep in mind that up until quite recently I was a Christian. A strong, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled Christian. I grew up in a private Baptist elementary school, and went to a private (non-denominational, but also essentially Baptist) Christian high school. I know my Bible very well, and I know all the "Christian answers" to the tough questions. It's just that once you pull the circular logic out, they don't work anymore. But at any rate...I tell you that to say that my arguments are not because I don't "understand" - unless you are using understand in some sort of unconventional use of the word...
Has this thread become confusing to anyone else? or is it just me? ((( univac))) thanks again for sharing your story..
ray3:Haha yes, I think it has. Although I've been following it (and participating in it) from the beginning.For those of you at home keeping score, here's a recap:A Christian posts a reply about how the problem of evil can be resolved. Then I point out flaws in their argumentation, and ask questions of them that never get answered. Then another Christian posts another reply with a completely different theology, but one that still doesn't resolve the problem of evil. I point out flaws in their argumentation, and ask questions of them that also never get answered. Then the original one comes back and says essentially the same thing they said before. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.That's my take on this topic anyway
In a way, yes. In a way, no. Yes because, there is and will have situation where nonChristians are just trying to confuse one's Faith because they won't understand what He is saying. No, because, as long you know what you are talking about, you are fine.
I am a firm believer that Truth cannot be contradictory. I am under the impression that Christianity - and especially the concept of God - contains inherent contradictions that cannot be resolved. I am not trying to confuse your faith, but rather I am questioning it to see if there is a resolution. If you are able to provide one, great! But as far as I've seen, this hasn't been the case.As for whether I understand what God is saying or not, well, please keep in mind that up until quite recently I was a Christian. A strong, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled Christian. I grew up in a private Baptist elementary school, and went to a private (non-denominational, but also essentially Baptist) Christian high school. I know my Bible very well, and I know all the "Christian answers" to the tough questions. It's just that once you pull the circular logic out, they don't work anymore. But at any rate...I tell you that to say that my arguments are not because I don't "understand" - unless you are using understand in some sort of unconventional use of the word...
(jeffhughes;59919)
(Jordan;59913)
In a way, yes. In a way, no. Yes because, there is and will have situation where nonChristians are just trying to confuse one's Faith because they won't understand what He is saying. No, because, as long you know what you are talking about, you are fine.
I am a firm believer that Truth cannot be contradictory. I am under the impression that Christianity - and especially the concept of God - contains inherent contradictions that cannot be resolved. I am not trying to confuse your faith, but rather I am questioning it to see if there is a resolution. If you are able to provide one, great! But as far as I've seen, this hasn't been the case.As for whether I understand what God is saying or not, well, please keep in mind that up until quite recently I was a Christian. A strong, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled Christian. I grew up in a private Baptist elementary school, and went to a private (non-denominational, but also essentially Baptist) Christian high school. I know my Bible very well, and I know all the "Christian answers" to the tough questions. It's just that once you pull the circular logic out, they don't work anymore. But at any rate...I tell you that to say that my arguments are not because I don't "understand" - unless you are using understand in some sort of unconventional use of the word...Yea, well, today's Christianity is a religion like every other religion in this world. And according to the quote I make in my signature...my faith is nothing but Truth. And my faith is not a circle, but a straight line. You're right though, Truth can't be contradictory.If we understand what Christ is actually saying, then would be no arguments. But since people don't, for lack of asking God for wisdom, they will rely on their own understanding or their denominations / religion instead of God.If I believe that Christ can't lie, then I have absolutely zero problems with God telling the full Truth and Christ being God. And since it was God that bringeth the full Truth, I have no problem with the bible itself with no denominations as Truth... At the same time translators are flawed as human are, for which is the reason we look at the original language and not our (English) language itself.
(Jordan;59913)
In a way, yes. In a way, no. Yes because, there is and will have situation where nonChristians are just trying to confuse one's Faith because they won't understand what He is saying. No, because, as long you know what you are talking about, you are fine.
I am a firm believer that Truth cannot be contradictory. I am under the impression that Christianity - and especially the concept of God - contains inherent contradictions that cannot be resolved. I am not trying to confuse your faith, but rather I am questioning it to see if there is a resolution. If you are able to provide one, great! But as far as I've seen, this hasn't been the case.As for whether I understand what God is saying or not, well, please keep in mind that up until quite recently I was a Christian. A strong, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled Christian. I grew up in a private Baptist elementary school, and went to a private (non-denominational, but also essentially Baptist) Christian high school. I know my Bible very well, and I know all the "Christian answers" to the tough questions. It's just that once you pull the circular logic out, they don't work anymore. But at any rate...I tell you that to say that my arguments are not because I don't "understand" - unless you are using understand in some sort of unconventional use of the word...Yea, well, today's Christianity is a religion like every other religion in this world. And according to the quote I make in my signature...my faith is nothing but Truth. And my faith is not a circle, but a straight line. You're right though, Truth can't be contradictory.If we understand what Christ is actually saying, then would be no arguments. But since people don't, for lack of asking God for wisdom, they will rely on their own understanding or their denominations / religion instead of God.If I believe that Christ can't lie, then I have absolutely zero problems with God telling the full Truth and Christ being God. And since it was God that bringeth the full Truth, I have no problem with the bible itself with no denominations as Truth... At the same time translators are flawed as human are, for which is the reason we look at the original language and not our (English) language itself.
(Jordan;59921)
Yea, well, today's Christianity is a religion like every other religion in this world. And according to the quote I make in my signature...my faith is nothing but Truth. And my faith is not a circle, but a straight line. You're right though, Truth can't be contradictory.
I disagree with your statement that your faith is not a circle. But as your faith is not directly the topic of this discussion, I will leave that be. At least you recognize that truth must be coherent.(Jordan;59921)
If we understand what Christ is actually saying, then would be no arguments. But since people don't, for lack of asking God for wisdom, they will rely on their own understanding or their denominations / religion instead of God.
I highly doubt that. There are many, many Christians in this world who, at the very least, try their hardest to understand Christ's words, and they often ask God for wisdom, etc. They do all the right things, do all the things God tells them to do, and yet they wind up in hundreds, if not thousands of different denominations. Sure, there are denominations that have got it obviously wrong. Sure, there are people within each denomination that are not really reading the Bible correctly, or not asking for wisdom. But to make a blanket statement like this is unjustified. If people trying their best and doing what they're supposed to do to understand Christ cannot understand him in the same way, then the conclusion that should be drawn is that he is not able to be understood, or that his words are contradictory. It's not that the people aren't trying hard enough. Otherwise there'd be at least a little more consensus on the matter.(Jordan;59921)
If I believe that Christ can't lie, then I have absolutely zero problems with God telling the full Truth and Christ being God.
Haha. Your faith is a straight line, you say? So you make an assertion that Christ can't lie, then from there you conclude that since Christ told the truth and God tells the truth, therefore Christ is God.P1. Jesus tells the truth.P2. God tells the truth.C. Therefore, Jesus is God.I'd like to see your evidence for both of those premises before putting any trust in the conclusion. You're merely asserting here. Not to mention that, at least with most Christians, their proof for P1 is because Jesus is God, and their proof for P2 is because God can't lie. The whole web of circular reasoning is enough to make a man physically ill.(Jordan;59921)
And since it was God that bringeth the full Truth, I have no problem with the bible itself with no denominations as Truth... At the same time translators are flawed as human are, for which is the reason we look at the original language and not our (English) language itself.
I had a reply to this, but I decided it would stray further off topic. So let's return.I'll put forth a question. I'd like to hear some answers. Why did God not destroy Satan right after he rebelled? And since he did not, how do you justify calling him "loving", when this single act that he did not do could have prevented all the suffering, death, misery, and sin throughout the whole course of human history?
Yea, well, today's Christianity is a religion like every other religion in this world. And according to the quote I make in my signature...my faith is nothing but Truth. And my faith is not a circle, but a straight line. You're right though, Truth can't be contradictory.
I disagree with your statement that your faith is not a circle. But as your faith is not directly the topic of this discussion, I will leave that be. At least you recognize that truth must be coherent.(Jordan;59921)
If we understand what Christ is actually saying, then would be no arguments. But since people don't, for lack of asking God for wisdom, they will rely on their own understanding or their denominations / religion instead of God.
I highly doubt that. There are many, many Christians in this world who, at the very least, try their hardest to understand Christ's words, and they often ask God for wisdom, etc. They do all the right things, do all the things God tells them to do, and yet they wind up in hundreds, if not thousands of different denominations. Sure, there are denominations that have got it obviously wrong. Sure, there are people within each denomination that are not really reading the Bible correctly, or not asking for wisdom. But to make a blanket statement like this is unjustified. If people trying their best and doing what they're supposed to do to understand Christ cannot understand him in the same way, then the conclusion that should be drawn is that he is not able to be understood, or that his words are contradictory. It's not that the people aren't trying hard enough. Otherwise there'd be at least a little more consensus on the matter.(Jordan;59921)
If I believe that Christ can't lie, then I have absolutely zero problems with God telling the full Truth and Christ being God.
Haha. Your faith is a straight line, you say? So you make an assertion that Christ can't lie, then from there you conclude that since Christ told the truth and God tells the truth, therefore Christ is God.P1. Jesus tells the truth.P2. God tells the truth.C. Therefore, Jesus is God.I'd like to see your evidence for both of those premises before putting any trust in the conclusion. You're merely asserting here. Not to mention that, at least with most Christians, their proof for P1 is because Jesus is God, and their proof for P2 is because God can't lie. The whole web of circular reasoning is enough to make a man physically ill.(Jordan;59921)
And since it was God that bringeth the full Truth, I have no problem with the bible itself with no denominations as Truth... At the same time translators are flawed as human are, for which is the reason we look at the original language and not our (English) language itself.
I had a reply to this, but I decided it would stray further off topic. So let's return.I'll put forth a question. I'd like to hear some answers. Why did God not destroy Satan right after he rebelled? And since he did not, how do you justify calling him "loving", when this single act that he did not do could have prevented all the suffering, death, misery, and sin throughout the whole course of human history?
(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
Yea, well, today's Christianity is a religion like every other religion in this world. And according to the quote I make in my signature...my faith is nothing but Truth. And my faith is not a circle, but a straight line. You're right though, Truth can't be contradictory.
I disagree with your statement that your faith is not a circle. But as your faith is not directly the topic of this discussion, I will leave that be. At least you recognize that truth must be coherent.Of course, my faith is not directly to the topic. And obviously there will be people disagreeing anyway. So thanks.(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
If we understand what Christ is actually saying, then would be no arguments. But since people don't, for lack of asking God for wisdom, they will rely on their own understanding or their denominations / religion instead of God.
I highly doubt that. There are many, many Christians in this world who, at the very least, try their hardest to understand Christ's words, and they often ask God for wisdom, etc. They do all the right things, do all the things God tells them to do, and yet they wind up in hundreds, if not thousands of different denominations. Sure, there are denominations that have got it obviously wrong. Sure, there are people within each denomination that are not really reading the Bible correctly, or not asking for wisdom. But to make a blanket statement like this is unjustified. If people trying their best and doing what they're supposed to do to understand Christ cannot understand him in the same way, then the conclusion that should be drawn is that he is not able to be understood, or that his words are contradictory. It's not that the people aren't trying hard enough. Otherwise there'd be at least a little more consensus on the matter.Not exactly making a blanket statement. When I say religions and / or denominations... I don't mean to say every single person in a religion / denomination ... I meant the "leader" who started a religion / denomination an extremely high % of creating it flawed to begin with. When if people follows the leader of men, they are being in danger of their very soul. God's Words has no religion, also has no denominations. (Matthew 7:13-14) (Matthew 15:14)(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
If I believe that Christ can't lie, then I have absolutely zero problems with God telling the full Truth and Christ being God.
Haha. Your faith is a straight line, you say? So you make an assertion that Christ can't lie, then from there you conclude that since Christ told the truth and God tells the truth, therefore Christ is God.P1. Jesus tells the truth.P2. God tells the truth.C. Therefore, Jesus is God.I'd like to see your evidence for both of those premises before putting any trust in the conclusion. You're merely asserting here. Not to mention that, at least with most Christians, their proof for P1 is because Jesus is God, and their proof for P2 is because God can't lie. The whole web of circular reasoning is enough to make a man physically ill.John 1:1John 10:30John 14:8-9(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
And since it was God that bringeth the full Truth, I have no problem with the bible itself with no denominations as Truth... At the same time translators are flawed as human are, for which is the reason we look at the original language and not our (English) language itself.
I had a reply to this, but I decided it would stray further off topic. So let's return.I'll put forth a question. I'd like to hear some answers. Why did God not destroy Satan right after he rebelled? And since he did not, how do you justify calling him "loving", when this single act that he did not do could have prevented all the suffering, death, misery, and sin throughout the whole course of human history?Love and Free Will. I already answered this question. If you can't understand that God wants us to make a choice to be with Him or Satan... then there is nothing I can help you with. Wisdom does not come from me for I am a man. Wisdom cometh from God only.And you are looking at men's perspective of things. Men's perspective of understanding.
(Jordan;59921)
Yea, well, today's Christianity is a religion like every other religion in this world. And according to the quote I make in my signature...my faith is nothing but Truth. And my faith is not a circle, but a straight line. You're right though, Truth can't be contradictory.
I disagree with your statement that your faith is not a circle. But as your faith is not directly the topic of this discussion, I will leave that be. At least you recognize that truth must be coherent.Of course, my faith is not directly to the topic. And obviously there will be people disagreeing anyway. So thanks.(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
If we understand what Christ is actually saying, then would be no arguments. But since people don't, for lack of asking God for wisdom, they will rely on their own understanding or their denominations / religion instead of God.
I highly doubt that. There are many, many Christians in this world who, at the very least, try their hardest to understand Christ's words, and they often ask God for wisdom, etc. They do all the right things, do all the things God tells them to do, and yet they wind up in hundreds, if not thousands of different denominations. Sure, there are denominations that have got it obviously wrong. Sure, there are people within each denomination that are not really reading the Bible correctly, or not asking for wisdom. But to make a blanket statement like this is unjustified. If people trying their best and doing what they're supposed to do to understand Christ cannot understand him in the same way, then the conclusion that should be drawn is that he is not able to be understood, or that his words are contradictory. It's not that the people aren't trying hard enough. Otherwise there'd be at least a little more consensus on the matter.Not exactly making a blanket statement. When I say religions and / or denominations... I don't mean to say every single person in a religion / denomination ... I meant the "leader" who started a religion / denomination an extremely high % of creating it flawed to begin with. When if people follows the leader of men, they are being in danger of their very soul. God's Words has no religion, also has no denominations. (Matthew 7:13-14) (Matthew 15:14)(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
If I believe that Christ can't lie, then I have absolutely zero problems with God telling the full Truth and Christ being God.
Haha. Your faith is a straight line, you say? So you make an assertion that Christ can't lie, then from there you conclude that since Christ told the truth and God tells the truth, therefore Christ is God.P1. Jesus tells the truth.P2. God tells the truth.C. Therefore, Jesus is God.I'd like to see your evidence for both of those premises before putting any trust in the conclusion. You're merely asserting here. Not to mention that, at least with most Christians, their proof for P1 is because Jesus is God, and their proof for P2 is because God can't lie. The whole web of circular reasoning is enough to make a man physically ill.John 1:1John 10:30John 14:8-9(jeffhughes;59959)
(Jordan;59921)
And since it was God that bringeth the full Truth, I have no problem with the bible itself with no denominations as Truth... At the same time translators are flawed as human are, for which is the reason we look at the original language and not our (English) language itself.
I had a reply to this, but I decided it would stray further off topic. So let's return.I'll put forth a question. I'd like to hear some answers. Why did God not destroy Satan right after he rebelled? And since he did not, how do you justify calling him "loving", when this single act that he did not do could have prevented all the suffering, death, misery, and sin throughout the whole course of human history?Love and Free Will. I already answered this question. If you can't understand that God wants us to make a choice to be with Him or Satan... then there is nothing I can help you with. Wisdom does not come from me for I am a man. Wisdom cometh from God only.And you are looking at men's perspective of things. Men's perspective of understanding.
Rebellious man does not believe that there is a God who will judge his actions and hold him accountable for his oppression. All men have gods. Even an “atheist” is one who worships himself as a god, for he recognizes no higher authority than himself and his own well-being. Psalm 10:6-13, 6 He says to himself, “I shall not be moved; throughout all generations I shall not be in adversity.” 7 His mouth is full of curses and deceit and oppression; under his tongue is mischief and wickedness. 8 He sits in the lurking places of the villages; in the hiding places he kills the innocent; his eyes stealthily watch for the unfortunate. 9 He lurks in a hiding place as a lion in his lair; he lurks to catch the afflicted; he catches the afflicted when he draws him into his net. 10 He crouches, he bows down, and the unfortunate fall by his mighty ones. 11 He says to himself, “God has forgotten; He has hidden his face; He will never see it...” 13 He has said to himself, “Thou wilt not require it.” Some of this is quoted in the third chapter of Romans to describe the rebellious heart of man—“ both Jews and Greeks ” (Rom. 3:14). This is the attitude of the rebellious ones who see themselves as gods and others as their servants to be used for personal gain. They look at history and see that God does not appear to hold evil rulers accountable for their actions, and they conclude that the patience of God—if He exists at all—will continue for ever. But the psalmist concludes in verse 16 with the hope of every believer, 16 The Lord is king forever and ever [for the eon and further—CV]; nations have perished from His land. 17 O Lord, Thou hast heard the desire of the humble; Thou wilt strengthen their heart, Thou wilt incline Thine ear 18 to vindicate the orphan and the oppressed, that man who is of the earth may cause terror no more. The “man who is of the earth” is the primary theme of Psalms 9-15. Nimrod was the first great nation builder who demonstrated this type of earthly character. Though corruption itself began earlier, Nimrod was the first to organize the rebellion against God and seize power from His anointed ones (Noah and Shem). Shem then left Mesopotamia and built the city of Salem (Peace), that is, Jerusalem. He was the priest of the Most High God (El Elyon), a king-priest, for in those days, the offices of prophet, priest, and king were united. It was only later and because of corruption in the priesthood that these offices were separated and given to different people. When men rule by fear, rather than by love, they are men of oppression and terror. Such was the precedent that Nimrod set forth, and that precedent has been followed by nearly all leaders since that time—some worse than others. A key verse describing Nimrod and hunters like him is Psalm 10:9, 9 He lurks in a hiding place as a lion in his lair; he lurks to catch the afflicted; he catches the afflicted when he draws him into his net. This reminds us of Gen. 10:9, “like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.” In later years, Esau was also “a skillful hunter, a man of the field” (Gen. 25:27). This does not only refer to hunting animals, but people as well. The book of Jasher affirms this in Jasher 7:33 tells us, 33 Therefore it became current in those days, when a man ushered forth those that he had trained up for battle, he would say to them, like God did to Nimrod, who was a mighty hunter in the earth, and who succeeded in the battles that prevailed against his brethren, that he delivered them from the hands of their enemies, so may God strengthen us and deliver us this day. Both Nimrod and Esau were hunters, and they used that skill to hunt the souls of men. Jesus said that “ the field is the world ” (Matt. 13:38). Thus, Esau—“ a man of the field ”—was a man of the world, rather than a man of God. He and his descendants were bloodthirsty (Ez. 35:6), for they hunted the souls of men. To show that Christ will one day overthrow these oppressors and rule the earth in “ for the Eon and further,” Psalm 10:16 says in various translations, 16 The Lord is King for ever and ever (KJV and NASB). 16 Yahweh is King for the eon and further (C.V.). 16 The Lord shall reign in the eon [aiona], even in the eon of the eons [aiona tou aionos] (Septuagint). Psalm 10:16 is quoted loosely in Rev. 11:15, 15 The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever (NASB). Christ's New Jerusalem will replace Nimrod's Mystery Babylon, even as it replaced the old Jerusalem (“Hagar,” Gal. 4:25; Heb. 12:22). The New Temple (“our body,” 1 Cor. 3:16) will replace the Tower of Babel, even as it replaced the temple in old Jerusalem. Christ and His body of overcomers replace the usurpers and will be given dominion to fulfill Gen. 1:26-28. They will inherit the earth “in the eon of the eons,” that is, the greatest of the eons. That great eon, or age, is defined in Rev. 20:6 as a thousand years in length, and it is treated as a Sabbath Millennium. Jeff, I know you are a very good guy and I do not want to judge you but please understand that I am trying to help you understand we are all in this together. This is the way God planned it and we as men have to accept it. If we don't, we will struggle. Do I think God could have done it better,YES...but He didn't Jeff so "GET IN THE GAME" and comprehend the facts, " HE DIDN'T DO IT OUR WAY " so we have to change our ways and submit to the way God has done it.I Love You Jeff,Logabe
(Jordan;59966)
Not exactly making a blanket statement. When I say religions and / or denominations... I don't mean to say every single person in a religion / denomination ... I meant the "leader" who started a religion / denomination an extremely high % of creating it flawed to begin with. When if people follows the leader of men, they are being in danger of their very soul. God's Words has no religion, also has no denominations. (Matthew 7:13-14) (Matthew 15:14)
Okay sure, but since most people nowadays can read the Bible for themselves, they can see the whole bit about "asking for wisdom", etc. They've been able to read this for themselves, more or less, since the invention of the printing press. So even if they are in a denomination, each denomination necessarily tells their followers to ask for wisdom straight from God. Do you not think that God would not give them such contradictory wisdom? You can say that some people don't ask for it, and some people don't listen to it, and some people don't understand it, but when you're talking about the billions of people that are Christianity, such a statement cannot be applied to any large percentage of this population. There are enough devout Christians out there that would be asking for this wisdom that there should be at least a little more consensus on some of these important issues that divide denominations.(Jordan;59966)
John 1:1John 10:30John 14:8-9
And without assuming already that these words are inspired (and therefore that God is telling the truth), how do you know that these verses are, in fact, the truth? Circular reasoning, yet again.(Jordan;59966)
Love and Free Will. I already answered this question. If you can't understand that God wants us to make a choice to be with Him or Satan... then there is nothing I can help you with. Wisdom does not come from me for I am a man. Wisdom cometh from God only.
And yet the choice, for Adam and Eve, would still be there if he left the tree of knowledge of good and evil there, but with no Satan to influence them. He could have posted a big sign on the tree telling them exactly what the consequences would be, so that they would be aware of what would happen. If they still chose to eat from it, at least they would be making an informed decision. As God planned it, he allowed a known liar to be the only influence on them, other than a big "Don't do it" from him. It's like putting a jar of cookies in front of a child and saying, "don't eat these." It's an invitation. He set them up. How is this love?(Jordan;59966)
And you are looking at men's perspective of things. Men's perspective of understanding.
I'm using the Bible, which is what you would say is God's revelation to man. That's about as close to God's reasoning and perspective as we're ever going to get. Therefore, I am not using man's perspective. I'm using God's, and it's still coming out as unloving and unjust.On to logabe,(logabe;59972)
Rebellious man does not believe that there is a God who will judge his actions and hold him accountable for his oppression. All men have gods. Even an “atheist” is one who worships himself as a god, for he recognizes no higher authority than himself and his own well-being.
Sadly, I've said those same words to many an atheist. But think about it: Okay sure, perhaps atheists "worship" themselves as a "god". But these are not their standard definitions. We have to reinterpret the words in order to make them fit, because atheists - by definition - do not believe in the standard definition of a god. But then, if you want to reinterpret the word "god" to mean "anything that you hold as the highest authority", then it completely waters down the definition. What's the use in using the word then? Might as well just talk about the "highest authority". Let's leave the definition of God as the standard one - omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent. That way we know what we're arguing about.Anyway, I've cut out most of the rest of your post because you say in three hundred words what you could say in just a few: "God promised he'll make things right again." But of course, this assumes that the Bible is the word of God, and all that sort of fun stuff, so I suppose we're back at square one. How do we know that God actually said that? And how do we know that he actually was telling the truth? After all, from what I've seen of his actions - namely, none - I'm not holding my breath waiting for him to start now.(logabe;59972)
Jeff, I know you are a very good guy and I do not want to judge you but please understand that I am trying to help you understand we are all in this together. This is the way God planned it and we as men have to accept it. If we don't, we will struggle. Do I think God could have done it better,YES...but He didn't Jeff so "GET IN THE GAME" and comprehend the facts, " HE DIDN'T DO IT OUR WAY " so we have to change our ways and submit to the way God has done it.
Thank you for not giving up on my soul. But I'm still waiting on the evidence of how we know this is actually God's plan. You even say yourself that you think God could have done it better. So how do you reconcile that an all-powerful God somehow chose the imperfect plan? How do you really rationalize that to yourself, other than just shrugging your shoulders and saying, "oh well!" Doesn't it worry you that the apparent Supreme Ruler of the universe chose the non-optimal path for mankind? I mean seriously, if God is God, we'd expect him to choose the best solution. But anyone with the mental capacity to dial a phone number can think up a better way to do things - we know what we would have done if we had those powers. And yet, somehow we are supposed to just accept it? Isn't it more logical to accept that perhaps the universe is being run by someone who's completely incompetent? I mean, I'm sorry that that comes across as harsh, but you said it yourself that "I think God could have done it better." Does that not say something to you?
Not exactly making a blanket statement. When I say religions and / or denominations... I don't mean to say every single person in a religion / denomination ... I meant the "leader" who started a religion / denomination an extremely high % of creating it flawed to begin with. When if people follows the leader of men, they are being in danger of their very soul. God's Words has no religion, also has no denominations. (Matthew 7:13-14) (Matthew 15:14)
Okay sure, but since most people nowadays can read the Bible for themselves, they can see the whole bit about "asking for wisdom", etc. They've been able to read this for themselves, more or less, since the invention of the printing press. So even if they are in a denomination, each denomination necessarily tells their followers to ask for wisdom straight from God. Do you not think that God would not give them such contradictory wisdom? You can say that some people don't ask for it, and some people don't listen to it, and some people don't understand it, but when you're talking about the billions of people that are Christianity, such a statement cannot be applied to any large percentage of this population. There are enough devout Christians out there that would be asking for this wisdom that there should be at least a little more consensus on some of these important issues that divide denominations.(Jordan;59966)
John 1:1John 10:30John 14:8-9
And without assuming already that these words are inspired (and therefore that God is telling the truth), how do you know that these verses are, in fact, the truth? Circular reasoning, yet again.(Jordan;59966)
Love and Free Will. I already answered this question. If you can't understand that God wants us to make a choice to be with Him or Satan... then there is nothing I can help you with. Wisdom does not come from me for I am a man. Wisdom cometh from God only.
And yet the choice, for Adam and Eve, would still be there if he left the tree of knowledge of good and evil there, but with no Satan to influence them. He could have posted a big sign on the tree telling them exactly what the consequences would be, so that they would be aware of what would happen. If they still chose to eat from it, at least they would be making an informed decision. As God planned it, he allowed a known liar to be the only influence on them, other than a big "Don't do it" from him. It's like putting a jar of cookies in front of a child and saying, "don't eat these." It's an invitation. He set them up. How is this love?(Jordan;59966)
And you are looking at men's perspective of things. Men's perspective of understanding.
I'm using the Bible, which is what you would say is God's revelation to man. That's about as close to God's reasoning and perspective as we're ever going to get. Therefore, I am not using man's perspective. I'm using God's, and it's still coming out as unloving and unjust.On to logabe,(logabe;59972)
Rebellious man does not believe that there is a God who will judge his actions and hold him accountable for his oppression. All men have gods. Even an “atheist” is one who worships himself as a god, for he recognizes no higher authority than himself and his own well-being.
Sadly, I've said those same words to many an atheist. But think about it: Okay sure, perhaps atheists "worship" themselves as a "god". But these are not their standard definitions. We have to reinterpret the words in order to make them fit, because atheists - by definition - do not believe in the standard definition of a god. But then, if you want to reinterpret the word "god" to mean "anything that you hold as the highest authority", then it completely waters down the definition. What's the use in using the word then? Might as well just talk about the "highest authority". Let's leave the definition of God as the standard one - omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent. That way we know what we're arguing about.Anyway, I've cut out most of the rest of your post because you say in three hundred words what you could say in just a few: "God promised he'll make things right again." But of course, this assumes that the Bible is the word of God, and all that sort of fun stuff, so I suppose we're back at square one. How do we know that God actually said that? And how do we know that he actually was telling the truth? After all, from what I've seen of his actions - namely, none - I'm not holding my breath waiting for him to start now.(logabe;59972)
Jeff, I know you are a very good guy and I do not want to judge you but please understand that I am trying to help you understand we are all in this together. This is the way God planned it and we as men have to accept it. If we don't, we will struggle. Do I think God could have done it better,YES...but He didn't Jeff so "GET IN THE GAME" and comprehend the facts, " HE DIDN'T DO IT OUR WAY " so we have to change our ways and submit to the way God has done it.
Thank you for not giving up on my soul. But I'm still waiting on the evidence of how we know this is actually God's plan. You even say yourself that you think God could have done it better. So how do you reconcile that an all-powerful God somehow chose the imperfect plan? How do you really rationalize that to yourself, other than just shrugging your shoulders and saying, "oh well!" Doesn't it worry you that the apparent Supreme Ruler of the universe chose the non-optimal path for mankind? I mean seriously, if God is God, we'd expect him to choose the best solution. But anyone with the mental capacity to dial a phone number can think up a better way to do things - we know what we would have done if we had those powers. And yet, somehow we are supposed to just accept it? Isn't it more logical to accept that perhaps the universe is being run by someone who's completely incompetent? I mean, I'm sorry that that comes across as harsh, but you said it yourself that "I think God could have done it better." Does that not say something to you?
Jeff, I didn’t say God had an imperfect Plan…you did.Let me keep it short for you, I said “according to mythinking”…without being influenced by the Holy Ghost,I could have thought of a better plan but I know that myplan would be to take the high road and prosper in myflesh and not my spirit. Now, I can see what His Purpose is, and it is PERFECT.In my limited thinking, “without the Holy Ghost”, I would establish an imperfect plan where I would have learnednothing in the Spirit. I exposed you to Nimrod hoping you could see evil being organized by man through his (man’s) dominion. God gaveman authority and man abused the authority by using it forEVIL purposes. Evil is happening daily in governments thatare abusing the dominion that God has given them.The question is…will God stop the EVIL dominion that manhas organized for thousands of years? YES, YES, and moreYESES. God placed man in vanity (EVIL) not willing, no freewill in that, but He also subjected that same “ in HOPE.Jeff, do you believe in HOPE? Hope is also in God’s Plan andthank God it is. (Rom. 8:24-25) 24 For we are saved by HOPE: butHOPE that is seen is not HOPE: for what a man seeth, why does he yetHOPE for. 25 But if we HOPE forthat we see not, then do we withpatience wait for it.What a Great Plan!I use to be mad @ God but when He began to show me the mysteries of His Kingdom, I was astounded by thedepth of His riches both the wisdom and knowledge ofGod! How unsearchable are His judgments, and HIS WAYSpast finding out!I have a question, when God completely destroys EVIL andno longer needs it in the universe, how will we think of Him then? I’ll take a stab @ it…(Rev. 5:13)And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.That’s pretty much everybody Jeff, let’s start HOPINGthat this temporary injustice will be destroyed by thePower of the Christ sooner rather than later, because we all know what is going to happen when He does.(Ps. 90:3)3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, return, ye children of men.What a Plan. Yes God exposed us to EVIL for thepurpose of learning and experiencing Him in away that we could have never experienced withoutEVIL.Evil was totally abolished in him who "knew no sin," as the prophet says, "neither was any guile found in his mouth" (Is. 53:9). Along with sin was abolished in him also the death which follows from it (for death has no other origin that sin). So the abolition of evil and the dissolution of death began withhim. From this there followed a kind of sequentially ordered pattern.Now when every evil authority and rule has been abolished from among us and no passion dominates our nature any longer,it follows inevitably that with no other master over us everything will be subjected to the power which is over all. Subjection to God is total separation from evil.And this is the ultimate goal of our HOPE, that nothing should be left in opposition to the good, but that the divine life should permeate everything and abolish death from every being, the sin, from which as we have already said, death secured its hold over men, having already been destroyed.God will take the guile out of our mouth. We will speak theTruth in Love when God has completed His Plan.Logabe
(logabe;60080)
Jeff, I didn’t say God had an imperfect Plan…you did.Let me keep it short for you, I said “according to mythinking”…without being influenced by the Holy Ghost,I could have thought of a better plan but I know that myplan would be to take the high road and prosper in myflesh and not my spirit.
I am not sure whether I misunderstood your earlier post, or whether you have just switched to a different "plan". I was not talking about God's "plan" for your life specifically. I can handle that perhaps God knows what's best for us in our lives, etc. But I'm talking about God's "master plan" - the big, all-encompassing plan that involves God dealing with evil. I understood your earlier post as saying that you could think of a better way for God to have dealt with evil. If this was incorrect, then I apologize, but either way, I can think of a better plan. It involves destroying Satan immediately - or not creating him at all.Think about it - the entire course of human history, including all the misery and suffering that has transpired during that time, was all put forth because God saw Satan rebel against him and said, "Well let's see how this plays out." In other words, he didn't do anything to help us. Just gave Adam and Eve some cryptic promise to send someone at some point to step on a snake. Here's the translation of that: "Yeah, you screwed up, and I'm going to punish you, and your children, and your children's children, and your children's children's children, etc. for it. Then, several thousand years later, I'm gonna actually get off my butt and do something about it, which involves killing a completely innocent human being - and my only Son - so that I can fix the problem that I should have fixed yesterday before the whole snake-and-apple thing. Yeah. You know, I could have just done that, but I was getting my nails done. So I'll leave it for a few thousand years. Good luck. Have a hurricane or two."If this God you serve is incompetent/unloving/weak enough to let the entire population of humanity throughout all of human history suffer just because he didn't get off his lazy butt and destroy Satan, then why the heck should I trust him, or have hope, that he'll actually follow through with it someday in the future? I don't care whether we get pink unicorns and unlimited gumdrops in heaven - that doesn't make up for the fact that he put us through hell to get there for absolutely no good reason.(logabe;60080)
I exposed you to Nimrod hoping you could see evil being organized by man through his (man’s) dominion. God gaveman authority and man abused the authority by using it forEVIL purposes. Evil is happening daily in governments thatare abusing the dominion that God has given them.
But earlier you said that God "dug a pit but did not cover it." In other words, it's a set-up. He set us up to "abuse our authority." That doesn't sound very loving.(logabe;60080)
The question is…will God stop the EVIL dominion that man has organized for thousands of years? YES, YES, and moreYESES. God placed man in vanity (EVIL) not willing, no freewill in that, but He also subjected that same “ in HOPE.
Again, why should I put hope in the God that set me up to do evil, not leaving me any choice in the matter? And why couldn't we just skip the whole "hoping" business and do it now? Or six thousand years ago? You're trying to justify why God hasn't done anything yet by saying, "Just wait for it!" To go back to my analogy so far back now, it's like trying to justify the mother who sits around doing nothing while her child yells out for her help to save him from death. She goes and does her hair and watches TV while his life slowly ebbs away. Would you honestly try to justify that mother's actions? Would you trust her to save you, then, if you needed help? I don't think so.(logabe;60080)
That’s pretty much everybody Jeff, let’s start HOPINGthat this temporary injustice will be destroyed by thePower of the Christ sooner rather than later, because we all know what is going to happen when He does.
Well maybe if he actually got around to doing it, then we wouldn't need to hope so much. What's he waiting for? Y3K?(logabe;60080)
What a Plan. Yes God exposed us to EVIL for thepurpose of learning and experiencing Him in away that we could have never experienced withoutEVIL.
The only different experience that evil allows us to have of God is that of an absentee father. I don't count this as a wonderful learning experience.I wish you would stop trying to justify the actions of a God you know has no ample justification. You spit in the face of every human being that has ever suffered in this world by telling them that the evil they went through was somehow necessary, even while insisting that there is an all-loving God up there with the power and the will to have done something about it all along. Your position has no justification. There is no way to justify the idea that an all-loving God allows his own children to suffer and die while he stands back and does nothing. Free will, oxen and pits, abused authority - none of these answers hold any water when you realize that God has done nothing to help those whom he supposedly loves. This is not love in any sense of the word, and I want nothing to do with it. I will take the real love and the real compassion of another human being over the distant, wishful thinking of an imaginary being.
Jeff, I didn’t say God had an imperfect Plan…you did.Let me keep it short for you, I said “according to mythinking”…without being influenced by the Holy Ghost,I could have thought of a better plan but I know that myplan would be to take the high road and prosper in myflesh and not my spirit.
I am not sure whether I misunderstood your earlier post, or whether you have just switched to a different "plan". I was not talking about God's "plan" for your life specifically. I can handle that perhaps God knows what's best for us in our lives, etc. But I'm talking about God's "master plan" - the big, all-encompassing plan that involves God dealing with evil. I understood your earlier post as saying that you could think of a better way for God to have dealt with evil. If this was incorrect, then I apologize, but either way, I can think of a better plan. It involves destroying Satan immediately - or not creating him at all.Think about it - the entire course of human history, including all the misery and suffering that has transpired during that time, was all put forth because God saw Satan rebel against him and said, "Well let's see how this plays out." In other words, he didn't do anything to help us. Just gave Adam and Eve some cryptic promise to send someone at some point to step on a snake. Here's the translation of that: "Yeah, you screwed up, and I'm going to punish you, and your children, and your children's children, and your children's children's children, etc. for it. Then, several thousand years later, I'm gonna actually get off my butt and do something about it, which involves killing a completely innocent human being - and my only Son - so that I can fix the problem that I should have fixed yesterday before the whole snake-and-apple thing. Yeah. You know, I could have just done that, but I was getting my nails done. So I'll leave it for a few thousand years. Good luck. Have a hurricane or two."If this God you serve is incompetent/unloving/weak enough to let the entire population of humanity throughout all of human history suffer just because he didn't get off his lazy butt and destroy Satan, then why the heck should I trust him, or have hope, that he'll actually follow through with it someday in the future? I don't care whether we get pink unicorns and unlimited gumdrops in heaven - that doesn't make up for the fact that he put us through hell to get there for absolutely no good reason.(logabe;60080)
I exposed you to Nimrod hoping you could see evil being organized by man through his (man’s) dominion. God gaveman authority and man abused the authority by using it forEVIL purposes. Evil is happening daily in governments thatare abusing the dominion that God has given them.
But earlier you said that God "dug a pit but did not cover it." In other words, it's a set-up. He set us up to "abuse our authority." That doesn't sound very loving.(logabe;60080)
The question is…will God stop the EVIL dominion that man has organized for thousands of years? YES, YES, and moreYESES. God placed man in vanity (EVIL) not willing, no freewill in that, but He also subjected that same “ in HOPE.
Again, why should I put hope in the God that set me up to do evil, not leaving me any choice in the matter? And why couldn't we just skip the whole "hoping" business and do it now? Or six thousand years ago? You're trying to justify why God hasn't done anything yet by saying, "Just wait for it!" To go back to my analogy so far back now, it's like trying to justify the mother who sits around doing nothing while her child yells out for her help to save him from death. She goes and does her hair and watches TV while his life slowly ebbs away. Would you honestly try to justify that mother's actions? Would you trust her to save you, then, if you needed help? I don't think so.(logabe;60080)
That’s pretty much everybody Jeff, let’s start HOPINGthat this temporary injustice will be destroyed by thePower of the Christ sooner rather than later, because we all know what is going to happen when He does.
Well maybe if he actually got around to doing it, then we wouldn't need to hope so much. What's he waiting for? Y3K?(logabe;60080)
What a Plan. Yes God exposed us to EVIL for thepurpose of learning and experiencing Him in away that we could have never experienced withoutEVIL.
The only different experience that evil allows us to have of God is that of an absentee father. I don't count this as a wonderful learning experience.I wish you would stop trying to justify the actions of a God you know has no ample justification. You spit in the face of every human being that has ever suffered in this world by telling them that the evil they went through was somehow necessary, even while insisting that there is an all-loving God up there with the power and the will to have done something about it all along. Your position has no justification. There is no way to justify the idea that an all-loving God allows his own children to suffer and die while he stands back and does nothing. Free will, oxen and pits, abused authority - none of these answers hold any water when you realize that God has done nothing to help those whom he supposedly loves. This is not love in any sense of the word, and I want nothing to do with it. I will take the real love and the real compassion of another human being over the distant, wishful thinking of an imaginary being.
God gave the angels freewill, satan thought he could take over. God kicked him out of heaven. God created earth and gave Adam dominion (the lease) over the earth, told him to name all the animals ect.... God gave Adam freewill, Adam gave the dominion he was trusted with over to satan when Adam chose to sin against God.Therefor evil spread throughout the land, because satan was the one who held the lease to the earth. God sent His son Jesus to destroy the works of satan. 'Cursed is any man who hangs on a tree' Jesus broke the curse and took the lease back away from satan, and gave it back to us. We now have dominion over the earth again and with the baptizm of the Holy Spirit, we also have authority over satan and his powers. However, God has also given us freewill, and we can chose to us it, or allow satan to continue to deceive us into believing he still has the lease. Evil continues because righteouse men do nothing. We are to busy crying to God, blaming God, and acting like we are defeated. Instead of binding satan, and using the authority and dominion that we have to destory the works of satan, like Jesus did. When will we learn and believe who we are in Christ. P.S Your right, God can be a different person or thing in everybodies life. That is why the Bible says we would be called by His name. CHRISTians. That is why the name JESUS CHRIST upsets so many people. If we just said God, nobody would care. It's when we pray, and speak the name JESUS CHRIST, that offens people. On talk shows, they tell you that you cant use the name 'Jesus', when your talking about your faith. I would do nothing but talk about how much Jesus loves them, I would say the name Jesus as often as I could. No, they wouldn't air it on national TV, but, everyone in the audience there, and all the staff would hear about Jesus.THE END IS SOOOO CLOSE, WE NEED TO BE DOING THE WORKS OF JESUS. LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL. WE NEED TO START DOING MORE THEN JUST TELLING THEM ABOUT JESUS, BUT, DOING THE THINGS JESUS DID. CASTING OUT DEMONS, LAYING HANDS ON THE SICK, AND TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO DO THESE THINGS AS WELL. Have you ever said 'If I could go back now and do that over again, if I only knew then what I know now, I would have done that better." Well, I pray that we are not saying that on JUDGMENT DAY, when we are standing before our Heavenly Father. We need to be doing these things NOW. Do them afraid, if your not sure your doing them right, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior will correct us. Therefor we have to be open to correction. TIME IS RUNNING OUT, TIME IS SO CLOSE. WE NEED TO FOCUS OUR ATTENTION ON THOSE WHO ARE HUNGRY FOR THE TRUTH AND NOT JUST DEBATORS, TRYING TO PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT. THE JEWS ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THEIR MESSIAH. IF THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE ANYTHING JESUS SAID, THEN PEOPLE LIKE THAT WILL NEVER BELIEVE ANYTHING WE HAVE TO SAY. WE SHOULD BE HELPING THOSE WHO ARE REACHING OUT LOOKING FOR HELP, AND NOT JUST A GOOD DEBATE. THERE'S NO TIME FOR THAT CHILDISH BEHAVIOR NOW, WE NEED TO GET TO WORK FOR JESUS, AND GET BUSY.
(Sasha;60285)
God gave the angels freewill, satan thought he could take over. God kicked him out of heaven.
I find the argument of free will a very difficult one to reconcile with the Bible. After all, the stories in the Bible are filled to the brim with God apparently violating people's "free will". The whole notion of this free will is completely opposite to the idea that God has a sovereign plan, and a direction to human history. But let me ask you two questions hereo you believe that God has a plan that will, absolutely, be fulfilled?Do you believe that the "end of the world", i.e. judgment day, will involve destroying or otherwise torturing and disabling Satan?If your answer to both of these is yes, then you will agree with me that at some point, God will violate Satan's free will by destroying/judging him. In other words, Satan will not be free to do his thing forever. But if God is okay with doing this at some point, then why did he not do it thousands of years ago, before Satan went and screwed things up? And moreso, if God is planning to do this, then why didn't he just do it much earlier on?(Sasha;60285)
God gave Adam freewill, Adam gave the dominion he was trusted with over to satan when Adam chose to sin against God....God sent His son Jesus to destroy the works of satan. 'Cursed is any man who hangs on a tree' Jesus broke the curse and took the lease back away from satan, and gave it back to us. We now have dominion over the earth again and with the baptizm of the Holy Spirit, we also have authority over satan and his powers.
If this is the case, then Jesus violated our free will by taking back our "lease" and giving it to us. We gave it away - shouldn't he have respected our decision? Shouldn't he have let us do what we willed freely to do?(Sasha;60285)
However, God has also given us freewill, and we can chose to us it, or allow satan to continue to deceive us into believing he still has the lease.
Wouldn't the fact that we "choose" to let Satan deceive us kind of imply that we aren't actually deceived? If I allow you to lie to me, then it implies that I know that you are lying...but if I don't know that you're lying to me, then I didn't really have the choice in the first place? I wasn't working from an informed standpoint, at any rate. So how do we choose to let Satan deceive us, if we know that he is deceiving us?(Sasha;60285)
Evil continues because righteouse men do nothing. We are to busy crying to God, blaming God, and acting like we are defeated. Instead of binding satan, and using the authority and dominion that we have to destory the works of satan, like Jesus did.
I remember that earlier on in this discussion, I asked why you weren't busy healing orphans with AIDS over in Africa right now, and you said that God hadn't "called" you there. But let me ask you this - does the fact that you have this authority not give you a moral imperative to do this sort of thing? I am telling you that there are demons over in Africa that are ravaging their children and causing them horrible levels of suffering. You tell me that you have the power to stop it. Does this not give you a moral obligation to do something about it? Or to go down to the southern States and Central America every time there is a hurricane and rebuke it? In my opinion, it shouldn't matter whether God has called you somewhere or not. If you have the ability to stop human suffering, you should be using it.(Sasha;60285)
P.S Your right, God can be a different person or thing in everybodies life. That is why the Bible says we would be called by His name. CHRISTians. That is why the name JESUS CHRIST upsets so many people. If we just said God, nobody would care. It's when we pray, and speak the name JESUS CHRIST, that offens people. On talk shows, they tell you that you cant use the name 'Jesus', when your talking about your faith. I would do nothing but talk about how much Jesus loves them, I would say the name Jesus as often as I could. No, they wouldn't air it on national TV, but, everyone in the audience there, and all the staff would hear about Jesus.
The reason people don't want you talking about Jesus Christ on the air is because we live in a pluralistic society now, meaning that there are people of many different faiths. Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and those of any other religion start to get sick of hearing Christians trying to convert them all the time. "God" at least is a more common denominator, even if generally you're all talking about different gods. But talking about Jesus can get offensive, principally because you wouldn't want to keep hearing about Krishna loving you all the time, would you?(Sasha;60285)
THE END IS SOOOO CLOSE, WE NEED TO BE DOING THE WORKS OF JESUS. LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL. WE NEED TO START DOING MORE THEN JUST TELLING THEM ABOUT JESUS, BUT, DOING THE THINGS JESUS DID. CASTING OUT DEMONS, LAYING HANDS ON THE SICK, AND TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO DO THESE THINGS AS WELL.
Good. Get started. Go down to your local hospital and heal some people.
God gave the angels freewill, satan thought he could take over. God kicked him out of heaven.
I find the argument of free will a very difficult one to reconcile with the Bible. After all, the stories in the Bible are filled to the brim with God apparently violating people's "free will". The whole notion of this free will is completely opposite to the idea that God has a sovereign plan, and a direction to human history. But let me ask you two questions here
o you believe that God has a plan that will, absolutely, be fulfilled?Do you believe that the "end of the world", i.e. judgment day, will involve destroying or otherwise torturing and disabling Satan?If your answer to both of these is yes, then you will agree with me that at some point, God will violate Satan's free will by destroying/judging him. In other words, Satan will not be free to do his thing forever. But if God is okay with doing this at some point, then why did he not do it thousands of years ago, before Satan went and screwed things up? And moreso, if God is planning to do this, then why didn't he just do it much earlier on?(Sasha;60285)God gave Adam freewill, Adam gave the dominion he was trusted with over to satan when Adam chose to sin against God....God sent His son Jesus to destroy the works of satan. 'Cursed is any man who hangs on a tree' Jesus broke the curse and took the lease back away from satan, and gave it back to us. We now have dominion over the earth again and with the baptizm of the Holy Spirit, we also have authority over satan and his powers.
If this is the case, then Jesus violated our free will by taking back our "lease" and giving it to us. We gave it away - shouldn't he have respected our decision? Shouldn't he have let us do what we willed freely to do?(Sasha;60285)
However, God has also given us freewill, and we can chose to us it, or allow satan to continue to deceive us into believing he still has the lease.
Wouldn't the fact that we "choose" to let Satan deceive us kind of imply that we aren't actually deceived? If I allow you to lie to me, then it implies that I know that you are lying...but if I don't know that you're lying to me, then I didn't really have the choice in the first place? I wasn't working from an informed standpoint, at any rate. So how do we choose to let Satan deceive us, if we know that he is deceiving us?(Sasha;60285)
Evil continues because righteouse men do nothing. We are to busy crying to God, blaming God, and acting like we are defeated. Instead of binding satan, and using the authority and dominion that we have to destory the works of satan, like Jesus did.
I remember that earlier on in this discussion, I asked why you weren't busy healing orphans with AIDS over in Africa right now, and you said that God hadn't "called" you there. But let me ask you this - does the fact that you have this authority not give you a moral imperative to do this sort of thing? I am telling you that there are demons over in Africa that are ravaging their children and causing them horrible levels of suffering. You tell me that you have the power to stop it. Does this not give you a moral obligation to do something about it? Or to go down to the southern States and Central America every time there is a hurricane and rebuke it? In my opinion, it shouldn't matter whether God has called you somewhere or not. If you have the ability to stop human suffering, you should be using it.(Sasha;60285)
P.S Your right, God can be a different person or thing in everybodies life. That is why the Bible says we would be called by His name. CHRISTians. That is why the name JESUS CHRIST upsets so many people. If we just said God, nobody would care. It's when we pray, and speak the name JESUS CHRIST, that offens people. On talk shows, they tell you that you cant use the name 'Jesus', when your talking about your faith. I would do nothing but talk about how much Jesus loves them, I would say the name Jesus as often as I could. No, they wouldn't air it on national TV, but, everyone in the audience there, and all the staff would hear about Jesus.
The reason people don't want you talking about Jesus Christ on the air is because we live in a pluralistic society now, meaning that there are people of many different faiths. Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and those of any other religion start to get sick of hearing Christians trying to convert them all the time. "God" at least is a more common denominator, even if generally you're all talking about different gods. But talking about Jesus can get offensive, principally because you wouldn't want to keep hearing about Krishna loving you all the time, would you?(Sasha;60285)
THE END IS SOOOO CLOSE, WE NEED TO BE DOING THE WORKS OF JESUS. LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE ON THEIR WAY TO HELL. WE NEED TO START DOING MORE THEN JUST TELLING THEM ABOUT JESUS, BUT, DOING THE THINGS JESUS DID. CASTING OUT DEMONS, LAYING HANDS ON THE SICK, AND TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO DO THESE THINGS AS WELL.
Good. Get started. Go down to your local hospital and heal some people.
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