Does God Create Evil or Not?

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APAK

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"
  • The Sadducees maintained that God does not commit evil, and although most people will intuitively agree with the Sadducees, the issue is deceptively tricky. Saying that God does not commit evil is the same as stating that there is someone or something else responsible for all the evil in the world. This intuitive bi-polar reality model is pagan (Zoroastrian, to be precise) and also dictates the intuitive truth that darkness is the opposite of light.

  • The Bible sports a mono-polar reality model, which insists that God is the doer of all the doings. This is easily explained by noting that darkness is not the opposite of light but the absence of it — light comes from the sun but darkness has no source, and when light enters a dark room, no opposing substance is pushed away or replaced. What may be perceived as evil on a societal level is quite the same as physical pain on an individual level.

  • It's essentially an instrument that is required to plot a course towards a pain-free and evil-free human existence. Hence the tree of knowledge of good and evil could exist in the middle of a perfect paradise (Genesis 2:9), the Lord could send an evil spirit to Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) and declare through Isaiah that He is the One and Only, who creates light as well as darkness and good as well as evil (Isaiah 45:7)."
  • The amazing name Sadducees: meaning and etymology

bbyrd009...

Man, is this a deep subject….

God never creates or created evil, in the truest sense.

In the heavens, God’s presence permeates everywhere. There is no place for evil to exist.

This world and universe began with the absence of God’s presence. It was completely the opposite of goodness. It was all darkness, all evil.

God then made his presence known in selective areas of this universe and this world. Evil existed where God was not.

Take the following scripture passage:

(Isa 45:5) I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,

(Isa 45:6) that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

(Isa 45:7) I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. (ALL ESV)

No one knows God, his ways and why he does things, although God chose to make his presence known to selective people, from Adam to the latest and newest true believer in Christ. From the start is was sufficient that the people knew that it was he that caused the rising and setting of the sun. Light to darkness (that already existed).

In this world, God causes goodness and its effect is the presence of darkness. He does not create the darkness.

Verse 7 seems to indicate that God created both the light and darkness. Or that he created both well-being and chaos. Upon closer examination, we see that God’s presence of goodness in specific areas will always produce ‘adjacent’ to it, evil, where God’s presence is absent. We see this type of ‘common law’ throughout scripture.

As with goodness, evil is also spiritual knowledge and consciousness or presence.

It is impossible for either the good and evil (physical and spiritual) to cohabitant and exist forever. It will eventually die, as with this earth and universe and with evil mankind.

Now God did not create the ‘tree’ of ‘good and evil.’ It was first created as a ‘tree of goodness,’ with total dependence on God. Then God allowed independence of consciousness to exist, separate from the presence of God. The power given by God was overwhelming and the ‘tree’ eventually became the spiritual presence and consciousness of a ‘fallen’ being, it had the knowledge of evil. God then created a lower form of existence and created man for this same purpose, to ‘fall’ and then ‘rise up.’ It initially went down the same way, death.

God always knew that his presence must always dwell within his creation; he cannot allow self-reliance with the power of goodness become independent. And scripture tells of the plan of restoration to that perfect state once more.

Does God know evil or have the knowledge of evil? It is impossible. By his very existence and spiritual presence of goodness, he cannot know evil even though it is present in this world. He only knows what he is. And this is another reason why God cannot produce evil.

The only people today with the knowledge and spirits of good and evil are the true believers in Christ. Others that are ‘lost’ only have the knowledge and spirit of evil.

Once a believer is restored in their new bodies they will only possess the spirit and knowledge of goodness and receive the energy of the spiritual tree of life.

One the basis of man, he is basically good. God says otherwise, he is (born) evil.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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bbyrd009

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Oh okay, got your drift.

I was basically addressing agreement with the Saddusees, with my own expression of words thereafter, which I believe is generally in agreement with your words; so didn't see the need to continue.

God Bless,
Taken
hmm, yet i disagree with the Sadducees there. interesting.
 

APAK

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i'm due for a nap and will come back to your post here, but this jumps out at me
Maybe I can answer it before you wake up.

God’s goodness has the effect of presenting the darkness in this world because God’s goodness is only 'partially' revealed. He will never present his entire presence in this world although we can 'see' his presence in many things and people. I believe it is not in his plan.

And that is why God’s partial presence will not dispel the darkness completely. Therefore, as it is said, God allows evil or darkness to exist in this world.

Did I hit a target?

Bless you,

APAK
 
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Taken

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God never creates or created evil, in the truest sense.

Not sure what you mean by "truest sense".

God created EVIL. Isa 54.
God revealed EVIL through KNOWLEDGE.

Spirits, Created Holy, who fell from their holiness, Reveal their Knowledge of Evil through their "MOUTH" and "ACTS".

Men; procreated by mans seed, and made into their GOOD FORMED BODY, by the hand of God, ARE BORN, ie revealed IN the World; IN SIN, and NOT GOOD.

Men: reveal their Knowledge of Evil,
Through their MOUTH and "ACTS".

God does not reveal He provided a PROVISION FOR holy celestrials who become unholy to BECOME restored to holy.

God does reveal He provided a PROVISION FOR MEN, born in sin, not good....TO BE restored to GOOD, and MADE Wholly (body, soul, spirit), holy.

This world and universe began with the absence of God’s presence. It was completely the opposite of goodness. It was all darkness, all evil.

God created darkness. Isa 54

Before this world existed, there was no "this" world. IN the midst of darkeness. God, began creating "this" World, With Gods Spirit, (power) and Gods Word.

And when God created this world, He pronounced Light at certain times; God called day; and He left some darkness; God called night.

God then made his presence known in selective areas of this universe and this world.

Pretty much you saying the same thing.

Evil existed where God was not.

I differ with you here.
God created Darkness. I don't believe Darkness BEGAN as evil, sin, wicked.

I believe God IS Light...and creates for His pleasure.
I believe celestial spirits were created "holy", and their holiness makes them APPEAR as LIGHT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE Gods REFLECTION OF LIGHT.

Further - it appears to me; Gods holy celestial beings, were to be helpers, assistor, servants to God, to HELP mankind LEARN HOW TO, exist IN Darkness, (as the world had darkness remaining on it)....BUT YET for man to become shining within the darkness; BY ALSO Receiving the REFLECTION of Gods Light.

WELL...SOME celestial beings, deflected from their PURPOSE, and actually SERVE themselves in influencing men in HOW TO AVOID becoming IN Gods Reflective LIGHT.; by encouraging, cunningness, craftiness, corruption.....and MANY men fall for it.

(Isa 45:5) I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,

(Isa 45:6) that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

(Isa 45:7) I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. (ALL ESV)

Agree.
Lord God Almighty IS ONE GOD.
There is no other besides Him.
Not all KNOW Him
Yes, He routinely reveals Darkness, and His Light routinely overcoming the Darkness.
Yes, He forms the light.
Yes, He created darkness.
Yes, He created Evil.
Yes, He created Good.
Yes, Evil is Adversity to Good.

Yes, MANKIND has exposure to BOTH,
What IS GOOD and What is EVIL.

Yes, MANKIND, can learn the KNOWLEDGE of BOTH, and choose which "thing" good or evil he chooses to gravitate toward.

No one knows God, his ways and why he does things,

Disagree.
Agree that was APPLICABLE to many OT men.
Disagree that IS Applicable to a FEW NT men, and a men present TODAY.

Point being; MEN WHO SEEK GOD...CAN KNOW HIM...and CAN KNOW HIS WAYS, HIS WISDOM, HIS UNDERSTANDING, of why and how He does things in the fashion He chose.

In this world, God causes goodness and its effect is the presence of darkness. He does not create the darkness.

Disagree. God DID create Darkness.
Holy angels that FELL into unholiness...and men who reject Gods reflection of light...
MAINTAIN and KEEP the DARKNESS in effect.

Holy angels and men coming INTO Gods reflective LIGHT, are the Servants of God, WHO are overcoming the Darkness...precisely WITH them having the Reflective LIGHT of God.

Verse 7 seems to indicate that God created both the light and darkness. Or that he created both well-being and chaos. Upon closer examination, we see that God’s presence of goodness in specific areas will always produce ‘adjacent’ to it, evil, where God’s presence is absent. We see this type of ‘common law’ throughout scripture.

Agree.
Throughout Scripture WHO and HOW darkness is being maintained and overcome;
IS a prevalent revealing.

It is impossible for either the good and evil (physical and spiritual) to cohabitant and exist forever. It will eventually die, as with this earth and universe and with evil mankind.

Agree, it is impossible; precisely Because God has already Spoken;

Isa 42:16
...I will make darkness light...

Now God did not create the ‘tree’ of ‘good and evil.’ It was first created as a ‘tree of goodness,’

In the midst of the Garden God planted...
Was the Tree of Good and Evil KNOWLEDGE
And
Was the Tree of Life.

The TREE of LIFE, is always present in the midst of PARADISE. Where Paradise IS, moves from place to place...and the TREE of LIFE is always in the midst of where PARADISE is.

Paradise; The TREE of LIFE
WAS in Gods Garden.
WAS in the comfort side of Hell.
IS in Heaven.
SHALL BE in Gods Kingdom ON Earth.

And scripture tells of the plan of restoration to that perfect state once more.

Disagree in part.
This world was NEVER perfect, it was Very good.
Mankind was NEVER perfect, he was Very Good.

God Restores "souls". (Ie Life from God)

But the body of man, and the spirit of man (ie the natural things of man).. God does not restore.....God CHANGES AND MAKES THEM perfectly holy.

Does God know evil or have the knowledge of evil? It is impossible.

Disagree. God knows ALL things.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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bbyrd009

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Your post # 39



I agree; God DOES NOT COMMIT EVIL.

God Bless,
Taken
  • The Sadducees maintained that God does not commit evil, and although most people will intuitively agree with the Sadducees, the issue is deceptively tricky. Saying that God does not commit evil is the same as stating that there is someone or something else responsible for all the evil in the world. This intuitive bi-polar reality model is pagan (Zoroastrian, to be precise) and also dictates the intuitive truth that darkness is the opposite of light.
  • The Bible sports a mono-polar reality model, which insists that God is the doer of all the doings. This is easily explained by noting that darkness is not the opposite of light but the absence of it
 

Taken

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  • The Sadducees maintained that God does not commit evil,

  • ThAT I agree with.


  • and although most people will intuitively agree with the Sadducees,


  • I don't know what most people will agree with.

  • [*] the issue is deceptively tricky.
Agree the issue may be difficult to understand ..... but I do not believe it is deceptive.

  • Saying that God does not commit evil is the same as stating that there is someone or something else responsible for all the evil in the world.


  • Well, I would be Agree, THERE IS something OTHER than God that COMMITS EVIL in the World.

  • This intuitive bi-polar reality model is pagan (Zoroastrian, to be precise) and also dictates the intuitive truth that darkness is the opposite of light.
Disagree. God IS LIGHT He has no opposite.
God created Evil. Our Knowing what IS Evil is through KNOWLEDGE.

God Knows Good and Evil. Knowing does not mean Committing.
  • The Bible sports a mono-polar reality model, which insists that God is the doer of all the doings.
    This is easily explained by noting that darkness is not the opposite of light but the absence of it

Agree darkness is not the opposite of Light.

God Bless,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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YIKES!!! You should get a TRUE teacher.

BOL - you are in contention with the LORD,
and are challenging the LORD, not me.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.

Isa 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!

Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it,
What makes thou?
And I've already schooled yo on the contextual and the linguistic reality of this passage.

I can't "make" you believe the truth.
We can only hope that the scales will fall from your eyes at some point.
 

Taken

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And I've already schooled yo on the contextual and the linguistic reality of this passage.

Patting yourself on the back AS IF you being a self-appointed teacher somehow makes you believe you are "schooling" others with what you were "taught"....apparently finds you at a disadvantage....since you have failed to recognize YOUR TEACHINGS are not being ACCEPTED!

I can't "make" you believe the truth.

I have NO requirement to believe "YOUR TRUTH", nor do I.

We can only hope that the scales will fall from your eyes at some point.

Funny. I already have the Lord's TRUTH, and it conflicts with "your truth".
Perhaps you should be concerned with your own eye scales.
 

BreadOfLife

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Patting yourself on the back AS IF you being a self-appointed teacher somehow makes you believe you are "schooling" others with what you were "taught"....apparently finds you at a disadvantage....since you have failed to recognize YOUR TEACHINGS are not being ACCEPTED!
The fact that you don't accept the truth is not an indictment on ME - but on YOU.
I have NO requirement to believe "YOUR TRUTH", nor do I.

Funny. I already have the Lord's TRUTH, and it conflicts with "your truth".
Perhaps you should be concerned with your own eye scales.
Thank you for pointing our your moral relativism (look it up).

There is no "my" truth or "your" truth or the "Lord's" truth.
There is only TRUTH.
 

Taken

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The fact that you don't accept the truth is not an indictment on ME - but on YOU.

Thank you for pointing our your moral relativism (look it up).

There is no "my" truth or "your" truth or the "Lord's" truth.
There is only TRUTH.

Poor thing ~ awe.

You can't even comprehend the difference between "your Mindful truth", being rejected;
And Gods "Spiritual Truth", being Accepted.

"Moral relativism"...LOL...just more of your psychobabble from philosophies of men, and THEIR TRUTHS, you push.

You would do well to pay more attention to the Word of God; HIS TRUTH; that notifies you the Mind of man is against God and to AVOID philosophies of men.
 

BreadOfLife

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Poor thing ~ awe.

You can't even comprehend the difference between "your Mindful truth", being rejected;
And Gods "Spiritual Truth", being Accepted.

"Moral relativism"...LOL...just more of your psychobabble from philosophies of men, and THEIR TRUTHS, you push.

You would do well to pay more attention to the Word of God; HIS TRUTH; that notifies you the Mind of man is against God and to AVOID philosophies of men.
And once again you're fumbling with the idea that there can be multiple "truths".
This is the tragedy of Protestantism - and this is why somebody like YOU goes around claiming that God created evil - and goes on creating it.

In your rebellion, you refuse to accept the linguistic and contextual realities of Isaiah 45:7 and that it is speaking of calamity and adversity - and NOT moral evil.
 

Taken

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Philosophy -
The study of THEORETICAL basis of a particular branch of knowledge.

Philosopher -
One who practices philosophy.

Scripture -
The carnal mind is against God.
Rom 8:7

Scripture -
Warning against being SPOILED by philosophy
Col 2:8

Gee, what happens when A man attempts to COMBINE the Lord's EXPRESS Truth, with a mans MINDFUL philosophical theoretical truth?....

A man begins calling a philosophical theoretical truth and Gods Truth one and the same.

He further attempts to USE his Philosophical theories, conjured up in a mans mind, AS a WAY to Explain the understanding of Gods Truth.

Colossal Fail!! And easily REJECTED, by one WHO supersedes philosophical "theoretical truths", with Gods Express Truth.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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And once again you're fumbling with the idea that there can be multiple "truths".
This is the tragedy of Protestantism - and this is why somebody like YOU goes around claiming that God created evil - and goes on creating it.

In your rebellion, you refuse to accept the linguistic and contextual realities of Isaiah 45:7 and that it is speaking of calamity and adversity - and NOT moral evil.

No fumbling - Undertanding what you can not.

Why do you keep telling me "not moral evil"?
You are the one who brought that up, I didn't.
If you require to convince yourself of something.....get a mirror and bring up whatever you want then preach to yourself, what you mindfully bring up and say up is not true.

Because you telling me what you think, and then disagree with it.....is revealing a weird process of how your mind operates....
You can look up in the Medical Journals what that "condition" you exhibit, is labeled.

Isa 47:5
Says the Lord created Evil.

It is not a big mystery God created ALL things.

Things that are GOOD and pleasing to Him.
Things that are NOT GOOD and adverse in His Pleasure.

And IFY, pretending carnally minded philosophical theories are Gods Truths, are not revealed as pleasing to Him. :eek:
 

BreadOfLife

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No fumbling - Undertanding what you can not.

Why do you keep telling me "not moral evil"?
You are the one who brought that up, I didn't.
If you require to convince yourself of something.....get a mirror and bring up whatever you want then preach to yourself, what you mindfully bring up and say up is not true.

Because you telling me what you think, and then disagree with it.....is revealing a weird process of how your mind operates....
You can look up in the Medical Journals what that "condition" you exhibit, is labeled.

Isa 47:5
Says the Lord created Evil.

It is not a big mystery God created ALL things.

Things that are GOOD and pleasing to Him.
Things that are NOT GOOD and adverse in His Pleasure.

And IFY, pretending carnally minded philosophical theories are Gods Truths, are not revealed as pleasing to Him. :eek:
First of all - Isaiah 47:5 says NO such thing. I believe you are referring to Isaiah 45:7 - and even then, it doesn't say what YOU want it to say.
It doesn't say that God created evil. God cannot be the Author of moral evil.

Although there are a few translations that render this word as "evil" - MOST translations state that He created "calamity" or "disaster".
YOUR
problem is that you think the Bible was written in English - it wasn't. You lack the linguistic knowledge of this passage to be able to understand it.

As I showed you - you also lack the contextual understanding of this passage. He said that He creates Light and Darkness - which are complete opposites.
He ALSO says that He creates Peace (prosperity, success). The opposite if Peace is NOT evil. It is disaster, calamity, etc.

Look - instead of simply wallowing in ignorance - open your mind to the Scriptures.
Your mind and your heart.
 

Taken

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if you insist that truth is deterministic but decline to state an absolute truth, then you are being a hypocrite imo

I don't have a problem with "absolute truth".

I was pretty clear, but will expound.

God KNOWS ALL THINGS. He speaks and reveals the TRUTH. His has no need to use logic and guess if something MIGHT be so.

Men do not KNOW all things.
And ALL MEN do not KNOW the exact same things.

Thus what a man concluds is his own absolute Truth, may WIDLELY differ from another mans Truth, and even may differ from Gods Truth.

BOL purports HIS TRUTH is supreme, and everyone who does not agree with him is a liar, dishonest, stupid, etc.

I don't find him hypocritical, but rather ignorant.

If you find me hypocritical, that's your opinion, and doesn't waver my understanding.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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First of all - Isaiah 47:5 says NO such thing. I believe you are referring to Isaiah 45:7 - and even then, it doesn't say what YOU want it to say.
It doesn't say that God created evil. God cannot be the Author of moral evil.

Although there are a few translations that render this word as "evil" - MOST translations state that He created "calamity" or "disaster".
YOUR
problem is that you think the Bible was written in English - it wasn't. You lack the linguistic knowledge of this passage to be able to understand it.

As I showed you - you also lack the contextual understanding of this passage. He said that He creates Light and Darkness - which are complete opposites.
He ALSO says that He creates Peace (prosperity, success). The opposite if Peace is NOT evil. It is disaster, calamity, etc.

Look - instead of simply wallowing in ignorance - open your mind to the Scriptures.
Your mind and your heart.

I have already provided Scriptural reference.

ISAIAH 45: 7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and CREATE EVIL:
I the LORD do all these things.

I could care less if YOU use a different Bible;
I could care less WHAT YOUR explanation is of Gods Word.

Your blathering off calling people dishonest;
Implying what you say in your blathering is what other people have said when they didn't;
Purporting you are THEE teacher;
And on and on...

I have ZERO interst in ANYTHING YOU have to say and find your tactics daunting.

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