Eternal Security

[Ferris Bueller]

I find that conflicts some see are eliminated with a better understanding, and no need to change words.

What words did I change in the passage?

All I did was point out to you that the passage only applies to believing people. Not fake believers, not former believers, but presently believing people. Fake and former believes are not 'risen with him' that the passage should somehow apply to them. I didn't change any words. I'm simply pointing out that which you surely agree with me about—only present tense believing people are risen with him.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The problem is, how do you make such a plainly stated verse sound as if it's saying something else.

Hopefully now, if you've been reading my posts in order, you can see that I'm not saying it's saying something else than what it plainly says. I'm saying it only applies to people who believe, not to people who have stopped believing. Unbelievers are not 'risen with him'. So the passage does not apply to them. It either never applied to them if you're Calvinist in your theology, or it ceases to apply to them if you're not Calvinist in your theology. But either way it does not apply to them. The passage remains 100% true as written. It simply doesn't apply to those who do not continue to believe.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are inserting conditions which do not appear in this passage

I'm not inserting anything. 'Risen with him' appears right in the passage. The promise is conditioned on being risen with him.

...and that significantly alter the meaning of the passage.

The condition is there right in the passage, and so it is not an addition that alters the meaning of the passage. I didn't even redefine it. 'Risen in him' all by itself, for those who know scripture, explicitly defines who it applies to. Fake believers and former believers are not risen with him. Surely you know that the person who does not believe is not risen with him, right? Unbelievers do not have eternal life in them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The verse says this applies if a person is raised with Christ. That's the condition. So anyone who is raised with Christ, now, will appear with Him, then.

...if you keep believing and so remain risen with him.

A simply stated condition, with a simple outcome, that's all there is to this particular prophecy. It's given for those raised with Him, and it will be fulfilled as All Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled.

That is right. Which is exactly why the Bible tells us to keep holding fast to the word in faith:

"...since we have a great high priest...Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. " Hebrews 4:14

"Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
​

The promises are sure. The ministry of Christ is sure. So keep believing! That's what the Bible says.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You've responded that it won't actually be fulfulled for those who are raised with Christ

Lol, no. I did not say that.
People who never believed or who have stopped believing are not raised with Christ. Those are the people for whom the promise/prophecy won't be fulfilled.

, but rather, only if they continue to fulfill a condition you seem to feel the need to put there.

The condition 'risen in Christ' is right there in the passage.
We know from the rest of scripture that means a present tense believer. Not someone who has never believed or who has stopped believing. Unbelievers do not have eternal life in them. The promise is not for them. That's why we should keep believing just as the Bible tells us to do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I believe that we don't need to make these kinds of, what are to me aggregious changes to the text, to reach harmony in our understandings.

What changes did I make to the text (Colossians 3:1-4)? Be specific, please.

But first we have to be willing to deal with the words as written.

What words have I not dealt with as written? Be specific, please.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Those who believe in “eternal security” have believed man’s word over God’s word.

Precious friend, no, as a matter of Biblical Fact, some of us have
believed ALL Of God's Plain And Clear Scriptures Of His Sound Doctrine!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

 

[amigo de christo]

It is simple.
But it's also not the last word on the subject.
You remain in Him if you continue to believe.
But who cares since we both agree that you have to continue to believe in order to appear with him when he returns.

The person who needs to be set straight is the person who thinks they can stop believing and they will still have the promise of appearing with him when he returns.

and yet not a ONE of them will correct that man . I have waited and watched and watched and waiting and yet NONE of them
correct that highly dangerous man who is preaching a dire blasphemy .

 

[Bob Estey]

According to this passage . . .

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Is there anyone who has been "raised with Christ", being "dead", who will NOT appear with Christ in glory?

Much love!

When we repent of our sin, our troubles fade away. When we turn back to sin, our troubles return.

 

[MatthewG]

Consider the Parable in Matthew 13.

There were people who heard the word but had it snatched up by the birds of the air, and Satan took away what they had. In the context.

You have some who heard the word and received it with gladness but the sun scorched the sprouted seed up. Because of the persecution of the word they fell away.

Then you have some who heard the word but the deceitful was of riches choked them out.

Then you have those which the seed fell on being good soul and produced a lot of fruit.

Eternal security doesn’t exist, guess it’s why the Bible suggest to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Eternal security doesn’t exist

It does exist, but just not the way Once Saved Always Saved says it exists.

 

[MatthewG]

Should it not say that in the Bible then?

Willingly participating in faith and walking by the spirit is a willful participation in which one finds security in God as their salvation looking unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

Would that more efficient to say? Do you think @Ferris Bueller ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Willingly participating in faith and walking by the spirit is a willful participation in which one finds security in God as their salvation looking unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

Would that more efficient to say? Do you think @Ferris Bueller ?

I think that is the more accurate understanding of 'eternal security'.
The security of salvation is in the all sufficient and never ending ministry and sacrifice of Jesus (as opposed to the ministry of the Levites and their sacrifices). That's what makes salvation secure. And which is why we are exhorted to hold on in faith to such a secure and everlasting High Priest and Sacrifice:

"...since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14

"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
​

So, eternal security does exist. Just not the way OSAS says it exists. There is nothing more secure than the ministry of Christ. That's why we should hold fast to it.

 

[Taken]

...if you keep believing and so remain risen with him.


That is right. Which is exactly why the Bible tells us to keep holding fast to the word in faith:

"...since we have a great high priest...Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. " Hebrews 4:14

"Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
​

The promises are sure. The ministry of Christ is sure. So keep believing! That's what the Bible says.

Sure the Promises of God ARE SURE.
The difference IS:
"WHOSE POWER" is in "CONTROL"?
* Remember: The OLD Covenant...
For a man who believes...God is "with" the man.
For a mans whose beliefs wavered....God is "not with" the man.
^ THAT has not changed.
* Remember: The NEW Covenant...
For a man who "heartfully believes and heartfully Confesses Belief"...the Lord Gods is "with" that man...
BECAUSE OF CONVERSION..."
THE Conversion IS; (in part) the Lord Gods Spirit entering "IN" the man, to "KEEP" the man IN Faith Forever, BY Gods POWER.

Condition (1)
IF....one keeps believing.
IF....one holds fast.
IF.......THEN....His promise "WILL BE" fulfilled

Condition (2)
IF....one becomes Converted.
IF.......THEN.....His promise "IS" fulfilled.

Condition (1)
...leaves the "possibility" of the man "falling away".
...is Dependent on the "power of the man" to endure and remain steady in his "faith in God".....TO the end of his bodily life.

Condition (2)
...leaves "no possibility" of the man "falling away".
...is Dependent on the "INTERNAL power of God" to KEEP the man in "faith in the Lord God Almighty".

Greater is He that is IN than he that is in the world.

Nothing can separate a Converted man from being "WITH" the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

Consider the Parable in Matthew 13.

There were people who heard the word but had it snatched up by the birds of the air, and Satan took away what they had. In the context.

You have some who heard the word and received it with gladness but the sun scorched the sprouted seed up. Because of the persecution of the word they fell away.

Then you have some who heard the word but the deceitful was of riches choked them out.

Then you have those which the seed fell on being good soul and produced a lot of fruit.

Eternal security doesn’t exist, guess it’s why the Bible suggest to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.

@MatthewG The word 'salvation' there in Philippians 2 has the sense of 'deliverance', in the context.

As regards eternal security for the true believer, it is clear from passages such as Romans 8.38-39.

 

[marks]

You're ignoring the whole counsel of scripture.

Why must it always come to this???

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why must it always come to this???

You tell me, lol!

 

[marks]

You tell me, lol!

It was your choice. I can't answer for you. I didn't teach you to talk that way.

 

[marks]

They mean what they say.

In that case, we are agreed then. Those who have been raised with Jesus will then in fact appear with Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No need to pack a bunch of extra baggage onto this passage.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

It's true as stated. And if you understand other passages which you feel are related to this one, if you have a correct understanding, you won't find the need to deny the clear and plain truth of this one.

But if you don't you may feel the need to change the meaning of this, again, simple and clear passage.

Not being able to accept that passage is true as stated is a sign of misunderstanding.

At least it is to me. I guess others feel freer in this regard.

Much love!