Gabriel’s message to Daniel is extremely relevant

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,760
2,420
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All I can say is your theory can be worked out with kingdoms. What kingdoms that can be worked out, is in the past. My point is it has been Satan pulling the strings and influencing the kingdoms. There is only one man revealed as a false prophet. If anything is going to be revealed in the 4th seal when 2 billion humans die, we are not told.

Jesus and the writers warned us not to look for humans calling themselves "Christ" and if they do, mark them as an antichrist and ignore them. With this in mind, looking for an Antichrist instead of a false prophet goes against Revelation and the rest of the NT.

If Satan tries to come back after the 4th seal and proclaim to be a "saviour", I doubt it will last long. Perhaps the majority of those killed will be Christians beheaded for their testimony. Did not Nero blame the Church for the economic collapse and have them killed even while Rome was being destroyed? If the war, famine, plague, and wild beast kill mostly Christians, there may not be too many left alive at the rapture. But until the 4th seal is opened and governments turn on each other, no one may be able to predict what happens. Personally a world wide revival of Repentance and turning to God is God’s Will and my prayer.

You're right that we're not supposed to waste time speculating on who the Antichrist will be and on when he will come. We're told to leave the "times and seasons" up to the Lord, and focus on our current responsibilities.

The purpose we are given this information about Antichrist and the False Prophet at all is because it explains to us that we have similar things happening to us now that we have to be advised how to deal with. We have to endure and to faithfully proclaim the message of the Kingdom without fear, and to expect difficult times.

Since nothing is clear yet about the future we are just engaging in speculation. Nothing wrong with that, but I personally need more explicit descriptions before I will take a stand on anything. I'm not at all sure there is just one man--it really sounds like two men to me, and none of them sound like they are Satan. But it's certainly not something to get distressed over. It's just speculation.

It is important, however, to know how to discern between truth and deception in our present time. The fake "good" is all around us, pretending to provide order and security through governments that are filled with corruption. This also is a "false Christ."

I agree that there will be relatively few real Christians left in the world towards the coming of Christ. However, I also think it's possible we might get one more revival in the world. It will inform the world one last time that God's Kingdom is coming, and they better get ready!
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,760
2,420
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If one option is false, how is that doing anyone a 'service'?
Stranger

There isn't a good and a bad in this for me. For many years I've entertained many different views. None of these views I held made me bad. They were just the best I had at the time. Every time I heard another view it gave me a new opportunity, to accept it or reject it, to modify or not. Each argument may add something new I hadn't considered. Sometimes I learn something while I'm in the process of arguing it. Nothing bad about that.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,760
2,420
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You're the one who twists the Heads and the Horns as though they were the DIADEMS. -- Newton used the phrase "doing VIOLENCE" to Scripture and it fits what you're contorted.

So YOU need to be FAIR to Scripture, and NOT BUTCHER the text or the fulfillments. -- Or go your own way, and follow your own imaginations. Your choice.
Bobby Jo

I did *not* twist the heads and the horns, confusing them with diadems. The 7 heads are 7 kings. The 10 horns are 10 kingdoms. The diadems indicate that these kingdoms have kings over them.

I'm not even saying I'm right. It's just that I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm just engaging in speculation. I guess that is cause for a civil war with you?
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Come back when you have something to offer. Of course that would mean you wouldn't be back for quite some time. But, I am hopeful.

Stranger

Dam (and yes I know how to spell). I was hoping you placed me on IGNORE, because of the saying: Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is forever. And it seems you're content being ignorant.

-- Specific Citation: YOU presume Daniel's prophecies are ancient, IN VIOLATION of both Scripture (Ref. Dan. 12:4 & 9) and History:

We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.

Sir Isaac Newton's DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE by Sir William Whitla, London, 1922, Chapt. X, p. 281​


... and per Montgomery:
The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217​

But what is ONE ignorant person among so many?!?
Bobby Jo
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... The 7 heads are 7 kings. ...
Specifically, which Kings?

... The 10 horns are 10 kingdoms. ...
Specifically which 10 Kingdoms?

... The diadems indicate that these kingdoms have kings over them. ...
Which of the SEVEN and/or TEN Kingdoms are you talking about?

I'm not even saying I'm right. It's just that I'm not "twisting" anything. I'm just engaging in speculation. I guess that is cause for a civil war with you?
Do you give medical advice as though you knew what you were talking about; or ANY OTHER ADVICE AS THOUGH YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?!? How stupid is that?

Scripture says we will be held ACCOUNTABLE for every idle word we speak, and you blather NONSENSE?!? -- STOP!

I'd most strongly advise you to LEARN what Scripture says, and what History fulfills, and then participate in a conversation.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. -- Author unknown


And YES, I am an ADAMANT DEFENDER of the TRUTH of Scripture, -- so STOP YOUR LIES about Scripture.
Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

RainAndIceCream

Active Member
May 26, 2020
223
166
43
I woke up like this
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, the Bible is quite verbal on the Antichrist: “Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he seats himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself that he is God.” This fulfills the prophecy concerning Antichrist in Daniel 11:36 and 37. This will take place in the midst of the last week, as prophesied in Daniel 9:27.
Hi, new to this site and this is my first thread so bear with me please.
How about if we consider this with regard to the question of Daniel's prophecy. (Orthodox Jewish Bible Version) Luke 17:24 "Hashem, the One having made HaOlam and all the things in it, this One being Adon HaShomayim vaHaAretz, does not dwell in temples made by human hands. [Isa 42:5 Dt 10:14; Isa 66:1; 1Kgs 8:27]
(NET Version same scripture:) 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone.

Perhaps we might consider we're looking in the wrong place as pertains to he that will seat himself in the temple of God. (with consideration to the above scripture)
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own" 1 Corinthians 6:19.

What if he that will seat himself is that which leads the faithful, who are temples of God, (1Corinthians 6:19). A man, some may say, the Pope.
Further, how would we really know if this old testament prophecy pertains to today? 2 Peter3:8 But beloved, do not let this one thing be hidden from you, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Are we working out the math with regard to 70 weeks to make it so? Or did this perhaps come to fulfillment some years ago? Remember God gave Moses after the Exodus a new calendar, or means to count time? Days are to be counted as years, years compiled in units of seven, i.e. 70 “sevens”. The Jubilee Calendar.
Exodus 12:1-3The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 “This month is to be your beginning of months; it will be your first month of the year. 3 Tell the whole community of Israel, ‘On the tenth day of this month they each must take a lamb for themselves according to their families—a lamb for each household.

Leviticus 25:2 “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘When you enter the land that I am giving you, the land must observe a Sabbath to the Lord. 3 Six years you may sow your field, and six years you may prune your vineyard and gather the produce, 4 but in the seventh year the land must have a Sabbath of complete rest—a Sabbath to the Lord. You must not sow your field or prune your vineyard. 5 You must not gather in the aftergrowth of your harvest and you must not pick the grapes of your unpruned vines; the land must have a year of complete rest. 6 You may have the Sabbath produce of the land to eat—you, your male servant, your female servant, your hired worker, the resident foreigner who stays with you, 7 your cattle, and the wild animals that are in your land—all its produce will be for you to eat.

God also warned Israel if they disobeyed this order:Leviticus 26:14.“14 “‘If, however, you do not obey me and keep all these commandments—"
32."I myself will make the land desolate and your enemies who live in it will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and unsheathe the sword after you, so your land will become desolate and your cities will become a waste.

34 “‘Then the land will make up for its Sabbaths all the days it lies desolate while you are in the land of your enemies; then the land will rest and make up its Sabbaths. 35 All the days of the desolation it will have the rest it did not have on your Sabbaths when you lived on it."
And after this, the land laid desolate without the Israelites living there, the Israelites entered into the period known as their "Babylonian Captivity". Where they remained for 70 years. Because they disobeyed God's order and violated 70 Sabbath years?

2 Chronicles 36:17 He brought against them the king of the Babylonians, who slaughtered their young men in their temple. He did not spare young men or women, or even the old and aging. God handed everyone over to him. 18 He carried away to Babylon all the items in God’s temple, whether large or small, as well as what was in the treasuries of the Lord’s temple and in the treasuries of the king and his officials. 19 They burned down God’s temple and tore down the wall of Jerusalem. They burned all its fortified buildings and destroyed all its valuable items. 20 He deported to Babylon all who escaped the sword. They served him and his sons until the Persian kingdom rose to power. 21 This took place to fulfill the Lord’s message spoken through Jeremiah and lasted until the land experienced its sabbatical years. All the time of its desolation the land rested in order to fulfill the seventy years.

Anyway, those are just my humble thoughts on the topic. Thank you for reading. :)
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... Are we working out the math with regard to 70 weeks to make it so? Or did this perhaps come to fulfillment some years ago? Remember God gave Moses after the Exodus a new calendar, or means to count time? Days are to be counted as years, years compiled in units of seven, i.e. 70 “sevens”. ...

The angel said the prophecies were sealed until we'd travel some 60 to 600 mph, and have instant knowledge at our keyboards (Dan. 12:4 & 9). So yeah, both of these aspects saw the start of fulfillment within some fifty years of the ink being put to paper (in approx. 480BC). Of course chronologists dispute this assertion, as well as Historians. But us "Christians" don't need either Scripture or History to diminish our Doctrines. We don't need no stink'in TRUTH.

And so the "weeks" are NOT "WEEKS".
The Seven and Sixty-Two are not one number.
The Anointed One is not Jesus.
And the SECOND Anointed One is not Jesus or a younger brother.
And there are no "moats" in Jerusalem, but there are irrigation ditches built in the early 1900's.
And the "destroyer" "SHALL COME" AFTER the seventy "weeks" (which are not "weeks").​

And if you need more, then consider:


New Bible Commentary: Revised.”

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.

[1] Guthrie & Motyer, p. 699
[2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035

So where we FIRMLY ATTEST TO THE DANIEL 9 FULFILLMENTS, -- nobody agrees on any ONE interpretation, because EVERY interpretation presented is FALSE.


Hope this helps! ;)
Bobby Jo
 

Stan B

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2019
1,967
983
113
81
Toronto
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone.

Perhaps we might consider we're looking in the wrong place as pertains to he that will seat himself in the temple of God. (with consideration to the above scripture)
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own" 1 Corinthians 6:19.

You have written many words, but I have no idea what you are talking about, nor the point you are attempting to make. What you have written has nothing whatsoever that has to do with building of the new Temple as laid out in Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dam (and yes I know how to spell). I was hoping you placed me on IGNORE, because of the saying: Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is forever. And it seems you're content being ignorant.

-- Specific Citation: YOU presume Daniel's prophecies are ancient, IN VIOLATION of both Scripture (Ref. Dan. 12:4 & 9) and History:

We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.

Sir Isaac Newton's DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE by Sir William Whitla, London, 1922, Chapt. X, p. 281​


... and per Montgomery:
The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217​

But what is ONE ignorant person among so many?!?
Bobby Jo

What do you mean (Dan. 12:4,9) prove Daniel's prophecies are not ancient? The prophecies were given during Daniel's life. They pertain to future days.

You should give the quote of Walvoord concerning this quote by Montgomery that Walvoord cited. (Same source and page number) He said, "In other words, Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all."

Stranger
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... They pertain to future days. ...

EXACTLY, -- and they're now HERE since the early 1900's. So why do you assign the Prophecy to ancient eras, including Jesus as the "anointed one"/"messiah"?

You should give the quote of Walvoord concerning this quote by Montgomery that Walvoord cited. (Same source and page number) He said, "In other words, Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all."

Actually, we need the FULL SPECTRUM of TRUTH, but it's usually too much to handle in one "serving" so I seldom present it in it's "entirety" (which still isn't "entire"):

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.


... And it's good to see that you have Walvoord's book, but I hope you follow his Scholars rather than Walvoord.
Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
EXACTLY, -- and they're now HERE since the early 1900's. So why do you assign the Prophecy to ancient eras, including Jesus as the "anointed one"/"messiah"?



Actually, we need the FULL SPECTRUM of TRUTH, but it's usually too much to handle in one "serving" so I seldom present it in it's "entirety" (which still isn't "entire"):
... And it's good to see that you have Walvoord's book, but I hope you follow his Scholars rather than Walvoord.
Bobby Jo

Your question makes no sense to me. The Prophecy is ancient as it was given in Daniels day. The prophecy pertains to future events.

You need to clarify what you are asking or saying.

Stranger
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your question makes no sense to me. The Prophecy is ancient as it was given in Daniels day. The prophecy pertains to future events.

You need to clarify what you are asking or saying.

Stranger

Hey Stranger,

Your reply makes little sense in that WE ALL KNOW that the TEXT is ancient (~500BC), but the PROPHECIES are MODERN. And so we should discover that they start at the early 1900's where WWI gave us the Balfour Declaration where the boundaries of a Jewish State were founded. Then they proceed from there.

Have you not read the Prophecies? Did you miss WWI?
Bobby Jo
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,760
2,420
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Correction: I have Scripture and History; and you have your imagination which butchers BOTH Scripture and History.

Bobby Jo

Stop being a "drama queen," brother! I'm not your enemy, unless, of course, you're not really a Christian? Why claim I'm "butchering" anything? We are just speculating on our thoughts about the book of Revelation. I'm not claiming I'm right. What on earth is wrong with giving an opinion on something that one is not sure about?
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... We are just speculating ...

GOD says we'll be held accountable for every idle word we speak. So if you don't know, then ask. Either GOD will tell you (via the Holy Spirit), or the Prophets and Teachers which GOD provided can answer your question.

But DON'T make unfounded POSTULATIONS which are FALSE.


Bobby Jo
 
Last edited:

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,760
2,420
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
GOD says we'll be held accountable for every idle word we speak. So if you don't know, then ask. Either GOD will tell you (via the Holy Spirit), or the Prophets and Teachers which GOD provided can answer your question.

But DON'T make unfounded POSTULATIONS which are FALSE.
Bobby Jo

The only "idle words" I'm hearing are from you, brother. You're filled with hatred, and I don't know why? You puff yourself up like cotton candy, and expect me to bow down to your irresistible "wisdom." Give me a break! ;)
 

Bobby Jo

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2019
8,041
3,778
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To All,

Why is it that so many topics evolve into name calling? Can't we address the facts as Scripture and History present without any suppositions, opinions, feelings, and conjecture?

Either an assertion can be substantiated as TRUE, and if it can't be substantiated then it's NOT true.


... and these people call themselves "Christians" ...
Bobby Jo
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,430
584
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To All,

Why is it that so many topics evolve into name calling? Can't we address the facts as Scripture and History present without any suppositions, opinions, feelings, and conjecture?

Either an assertion can be substantiated as TRUE, and if it can't be substantiated then it's NOT true.


... and these people call themselves "Christians" ...
Bobby Jo
If you separate from Christians, that hardly makes you an arbitrator of truth.

Stop correcting other posters, and perhaps you will notice less hostility. Even normal well adjusted educated humans, when backed into a corner with no recourse, will bite the hand of the irresponsible human backing them into a corner. Jesus said, "cursed are those, who cause others to stumble." Having a safe zone with all sitting equally in a discussion forum works just fine. Stay out of the corners, and stop backing others into a corner, if you actually want peace.

Human assertions cannot be defended. They only break down into fist fights. God’s assertions do not need to be defended, and they do offend. They will keep offending, until we are willing to change our own ways of thinking.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hey Stranger,

Your reply makes little sense in that WE ALL KNOW that the TEXT is ancient (~500BC), but the PROPHECIES are MODERN. And so we should discover that they start at the early 1900's where WWI gave us the Balfour Declaration where the boundaries of a Jewish State were founded. Then they proceed from there.

Have you not read the Prophecies? Did you miss WWI?
Bobby Jo

The prophecy of the 70 weeks is ancient. And, it is for a future day. It has been fulfilled up to the 69th week.

Because God is not working directly with Israel since Israel rejected Christ, time for Israel has stopped. The Church is being called out.

When the Church is full, and the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, the Church is taken out.

It is then that that the 70th week, also known as the Tribulation, will start. The 70th week has yet to start.

Stranger