GEN 1:1-2 SPEAKS MORE THAN CREATION!

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Paul Christensen

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You better go back and re-read some of that literal text which you so admire, as you have erred in your assertion that from Adam to Abraham was 4000 years. The Scriptures inform us that is was 1656 years from the creation of Adam to the flood and that it was another 427 years until God made his covenant with Abraham a total of 2083 years.

I would suggest you take a look at, The True Bible Chronology for further clarification on this matter.



We never said that our belief is based on scientific evidence, its based on the scriptures, this is simply you once again jumping to hasty conclusions an assuming erroneously the thoughts of others. You really should stick to what you believe and not try to assume what others believe.



If you had taken the time to read what was stated in our blog (which evidently you did not as is exemplified here) you would have noted that we discussed the same issue of Carbon dating and how unreliable it is.

As for my faith, my foundation is Christ, and it is sure, God's word is the final authority on all matters of faith, not man's and certainly not the delusional babblings of young earth creationist.
You know, you would be more credible with me if you tended away from the personal "you" comments. Better to stick with kicking the ball instead of the player. You need to see the exchanges grailhunter and I are having. We absolutely disagree on the issues, and yet he remains respectful and his eye on the ball (the issues) and not on me. I have challenged him concerning his personal salvation, and he has respectfully sidestepped and kept to an objective stance, not being defensive at all, or deciding to attack me for believing what I do. I think some on this forum could learn from him.

The point I made was the genealogy shows a young earth rather than an earth that is millions of years old. That's what the Bible tells me. My religious foundation is firmly based on the literal text of the Bible and so my comments are going to come from that perspective. I respect the authority of the Bible and put what God literally says before what man says, and evaluate what man says by the authority of what God says instead of the other way around.
 

Harvest 1874

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I would suggest that you go back and check your logic before you make claims that are not reliant on the Biblical scriptures to support your claims.

I can justify all of what I have posted above from the scriptures. Can you.

Shalom

You must be using a different bible than the rest of us because my bible is pretty clear on the matter.

We know that from the Creation of Adam to the end of the flood was a total of 1656 years, this is easy to prove. The next period from the flood to the covenant with Abraham, at the Death of Terah, his Father is also very simple and straight forward and comes directly from the scriptures.

"Shem--begat Arphaxad...... 2 years after the flood." Gen 11:10

"Arphaxad lived.................. 35 years and begat Salah." Gen 11:12

"Salah lived......................... 30 years and begat Eber." Gen 11:14

"Eber lived........................... 34 years and begat Peleg." Gen 11:16

"Peleg lived..........................30 years and begat Reu." Gen 11:18

"Reu lived.............................32 years and begat Serug." Gen 11:20

"Serug lived..........................30 years and begat Nahor." Gen 11:22

"Nahor lived......................... 29 years and begat Terah." Gen 11:24

"The days of Terah were... 205 years and he died." Gen 11:32

Giving us a total of 427 years.

It's not rocket science, my friend just simple math.
 

Harvest 1874

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By my calculations I can determine the following: -

The flood lasted for 1 year
Arachshad was born 2 years later
Shelah when Arachshad was 35 years old
Eber when Shelah was 30 years old
Peleg when Eber was 34 years old
Reu when Peleg was 30 years old
Serug when Rue was 32 years old
Nahor when Serug was 30 years old
Terah when Nahor was 29 years old
Abram (Abraham) when Terah was 70 years old

So summing all of these we arrive at the date when Abraham was born: -

1656 + (1 + 2 + 35 + 30 + 34 + 30 + 32 + 30 + 29 + 70 = 293 ) = 1949 years after the creation of Adam.

Abraham was not born when Terah was 70 years old, but when he was 130 years old.

The birth of Abraham is clouded by the generic family history in Gen 11:26. While Terah obviously began his family at age 70, Abram (later Abraham) was not the first born. Since Abraham is a key link in The True Bible Chronology and in the promises, it is necessary to go beyond the generic information in Gen 11:26.

Terah was 130 years old when Abraham was born. To confirm this, the Lord has graciously let the first Christian martyr, Stephen, summarize Jewish history. In Acts 7:4 we find it clearly taught that Abraham moved from Haran to the promised land upon the death of his father, Terah. Gen 11:32 informs us that Terah died at the age of 205.

Gen 12:4
states that at this time Abraham was 75 years old, and was born therefore when his father was 130.

In Gen 11:26 Haran is apparently the first born of the three brothers. His son was Lot, a companion of Abraham. Nahor’s grand-daughter was Rebekah, the wife of Abraham’s son, Isaac (Gen 24:67).
 

Jay Ross

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You must be using a different bible than the rest of us because my bible is pretty clear on the matter.

No, I am not. I just do not favour one section of the scriptures over another like you have, where you have favoured your wrong understanding of Acts 7:4 over Genesis 11:26. Terah was 70 years old when Abraham was born. This is confirmed in Genesis 22:22-24 when Abraham is told about his family back in Haran that his brother has also children. The reason for learning these details at this time, 60 years after leaving Haran is significant, two years before Sahar dies. Why would Nahor have sent any message to his brother Abraham at this time unless to inform Abraham that their father, Terah, had died. While the messengers were tell of the death of his father, Abraham would have also learnt details about Nahor's family. A few years after Sahar died, Abraham sends his chief steward to Haran to find a wife from among his family members who were living in Haran.

Because of your wrong understanding and interpretation of Acts 7:4 you have discounted God's words in Genesis 11:26 in favour of your flawed understanding and interpretation of Acts 7:4 where the term "father" does not necessarily point to a person's biological father but to a person in his lineage from whom he descended. From the Genesis 11 account, the only patriarch who died during the time that Abraham live in Haran was Noah. Stephen was correctly stating that after the death of Abraham's father, Noah, that Abraham left Haran, around 16 years later. Even Jesus and the religious leaders at that time used the term "father" to refer to the patriarchs within their lineage a number of descendant generation previously. However, you have ignored this practice and have adopted the scholarship of people like Bishop Ussher and his flawed chronology of the OT.

We know that from the Creation of Adam to the end of the flood was a total of 1656 years, this is easy to prove. The next period from the flood to the covenant with Abraham, at the Death of Terah, his Father is also very simple and straight forward and comes directly from the scriptures.

"Shem--begat Arphaxad...... 2 years after the flood." Gen 11:10

"Arphaxad lived.................. 35 years and begat Salah." Gen 11:12

"Salah lived......................... 30 years and begat Eber." Gen 11:14

"Eber lived........................... 34 years and begat Peleg." Gen 11:16

"Peleg lived..........................30 years and begat Reu." Gen 11:18

"Reu lived.............................32 years and begat Serug." Gen 11:20

"Serug lived..........................30 years and begat Nahor." Gen 11:22

"Nahor lived......................... 29 years and begat Terah." Gen 11:24

"The days of Terah were... 205 years and he died." Gen 11:32

Giving us a total of 427 years.

It's not rocket science, my friend just simple math.

In the above your rocket science has two mistakes in it. The first is that you precisely state the scriptures of Genesis 11:10, that Arphaxad was born two years after the flood which began in the 600 years of Noah's life, but you then ignored the following verse Genesis 8:13, which tells us that the flood was over in the 601st year of Noah's life. This means that your statement that the flood was over before it started is in error. This means that Arphaxad was born in the 3rd year after the flood started if we add in the one year for the flood.

The second error is that from the silence of the OT account, you have now chosen to put more credence in the Genesis 12:1 and assumed that Abraham left Haran shortly after God had had entered into a covenant with Abraham in Haran, whereas, Stephen tells us God had entered into a covenantal relationship with Abraham while he was still in Ur of the Chaldean's. Abraham probably spent some 25 years in Haran acquiring flocks and servants for his household before he set out to leave Haran, and had left Ur shortly after God had spoken to him while he was still in Ur.

This is not rocket science as you have put it, but rocket science relies on accurate facts and you have demonstrated twice in the above calculations that the Biblical facts can be manipulated to suit the story that you want to tell by cherry picking the scriptures to suit the story that you are telling.

I would suggest to you that the error in your above claims in your story is of the order of 60 years from the Biblical record given.

Shalom
 
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101G

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not trying to get into your conversation, but this is very intresting. Jay are you sure that it was speaking of Noah and not Terah, if so please give scripture to the fact.

because there can be only one other possibility.

PICJAG.
 

Jay Ross

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not trying to get into your conversation, but this is very interesting. Jay are you sure that it was speaking of Noah and not Terah, if so please give scripture to the fact.

because there can be only one other possibility.

PICJAG.
You will have to create your own database from Genesis 5, 11:1-12:6 and it should look something like this.

In the snip from my spreadsheet I have highlighted the years in which Noah died and the years that Abraham arrived at and left Haran.

upload_2020-3-29_9-50-37.png

The age I have used for when Abraham arrived in Haran, I determined from the Book of Jasher, as the Bible is silent on this point, and is a best guess on my part based on what is recorded in that book, but it is reasonably within acceptable tolerance of acceptability for this event to occur.

Hope that this helps.

Shalom
 
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101G

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You will have to create your own database from Genesis 5, 11:1-12:6 and it should look something like this.

In the snip from my spreadsheet I have highlighted the years in which Noah died and the years that Abraham arrived at and left Haran.

View attachment 8917

The age I have used for when Abraham arrived in Haran, I determined from the Book of Jasher, as the Bible is silent on this point, and is a best guess on my part based on what is recorded in that book, but it is reasonably within acceptable tolerance of acceptability for this event to occur.

Hope that this helps.

Shalom
Thanks for the reply, but the chart is not helping, not saying that you're wrong, but consider this,
How Old was Terah when Abraham was Born? How Old was Terah when Abraham was Born?

read that and get back to me and let me know what you think. because in acts Acts 7:4 our brother Stephen clearly stated "his" father as in Terah. for if he was speaking of a Patriarch lineage it would have been shem instead of Noah. but let me know what you think.

PICJAG.
 

Jay Ross

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Thanks for the reply, but the chart is not helping, not saying that you're wrong, but consider this,
How Old was Terah when Abraham was Born? How Old was Terah when Abraham was Born?

read that and get back to me and let me know what you think. because in acts Acts 7:4 our brother Stephen clearly stated "his" father as in Terah. for if he was speaking of a Patriarch lineage it would have been shem instead of Noah. but let me know what you think.

PICJAG.

Read as far as the basis for his POV and stopped. It is a pile of cow dropped pads, it is rather runny and covers much truth before it hardens and people can handle the cow pad.

It is up to you whether or not you accept all of the scriptures as being true. The issue that we have to solve for ourselves is how is this so when there apparently seems to be a contradiction between one section of the bible from another section of the bible. It was not until I began to construct my own chronological timeline of the Book of Genesis. I had to resolve how both Stephen in Acts could be just as correct as the Genesis 11:26 account. Now consistency must apply as to how we use the data in Genesis 8 and 11, and not manipulate the data to fit our understanding of when certain events take place.

Take for example the story of the Tower of Babel and Nimrod and how the Story of Abraham interplay with each other. Or do we push the story of the Tower of babel and Nimrod to a point in history that even places it before the Flood and so has no possibly bearing on the story of Abraham.

The choice is yours to make.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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Thanks for the reply, but the chart is not helping, not saying that you're wrong, but consider this

Now doing what you could have done with the raw data provided, and to make it easier for you to see I have provided the following snip from my spreadsheet.

upload_2020-3-30_10-40-46.png

It seems pretty clear to me who Stephen was referring to this list of possible fathers with respect to Abraham: -

Noah, Shem, Arachshad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah

Now because you have accepted a very narrow understanding, of what Stephen was saying in Acts 7, you are saying the first occurrence of patéra, in Matthew 3 :9 cannot be true either, because you are claiming that the same word in Acts 3:4 has the meaning of immediate father, whereas Christ used the same word to call Abraham the father of the Jews in his day. Now the context in Acts 3:4 is not clear and a knowledge of the chronology of the Patriarchs is required to solve who the person was that Stephen was referring to.

Now if we go to the Abrahamic Covenant then we know that God told Abraham to get out of his father's house, but if Terah had already died, before Abraham left Haran, then technically, Terah no longer had possession of a "house" as it would have automatically passed to one of his sons, probably Nohar, Abraham's brother and as such Abraham could not have got out of his father's house. So for Abraham to leave his father's house, Abraham had to leave Haran before Terah died for God's command to Abraham to be fulfilled, i.e. "Get out of your father's house."

The link that you had provided to another web site provided no counter arguments to the above arguments that Stephen was referring to Abraham's Father, Noah. The author had not considered other possibilities, but kept to what he had read or been taught previously.

For me, keeping both Genesis 11:46 in tension with Acts 7:4 is very important and to abandon that both were true has lead many into grave error, in our understanding of the scriptures.

Shalom
 

101G

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Now if we go to the Abrahamic Covenant then we know that God told Abraham to get out of his father's house, but if Terah had already died, before Abraham left Haran, then technically, Terah no longer had possession of a "house" as it would have automatically passed to one of his sons, probably Nohar, Abraham's brother and as such Abraham could not have got out of his father's house. So for Abraham to leave his father's house, Abraham had to leave Haran before Terah died for God's command to Abraham to be fulfilled, i.e. "Get out of your father's house."
Genesis 24:7 "The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence".

read Gills commentary on that verse.

but our brother Stephen makes it clear, Acts 7:2 "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Acts 7:3 "And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
Acts 7:4 "Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

so Abraham call was before he dwelt in Charran/Haran. Genesis 11:31 "And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there".

Nehemiah 9:7 "Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

there is alway one verse that intrigue me many a years ago, about Haran, Joshua 24:2 "And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods". what's missing here? Terah son Haran. why?

PICJAG.
 

Jay Ross

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Genesis 24:7 "The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence".

read Gills commentary on that verse.

but our brother Stephen makes it clear, Acts 7:2 "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Acts 7:3 "And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
Acts 7:4 "Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

so Abraham call was before he dwelt in Charran/Haran. Genesis 11:31 "And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there".

Nehemiah 9:7 "Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

there is alway one verse that intrigue me many a years ago, about Haran, Joshua 24:2 "And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods". what's missing here? Terah son Haran. why?

PICJAG.

I understand your confusion and your lack of understanding, as you have built your precepts upon other's precepts and the outcome of that folly is that you will fall over backwards and be caught in the snare.

You suggested that I read Gill's commentary on Gen 24:7 and his words condemned him as a person who had no understanding of the passage or the reason why God entered into a solemn covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15:17-21.

The Jewish leadership in Jesus' day believed that their Messiah would restore to them the "Promised Land" but the "Promised Land" had already been forsaken by that time by their continual idolatrous activity. They believed that the land was promised for an indefinite everlasting period of time, whereas, it was promised for a period of time which was just over their horizon of understanding and its duration was limited by the finite period of time that it was being given for and the purpose that the Promised Land was being given.

In Genesis 24:7, Abraham states very clearly that God had promised to Give Abraham and his descendants the whole earth as their inheritance and Daniel 7:27 clearly indicates what their inheritance would be all of the earth "under the whole heaven."

Now since your understanding of God's promises to Abraham is flawed, your foundation of biblical understanding has been built on sand and has no firm foundation.

You went on to mention Joshua 24:2 and wondered why Joshua only mentions Terah and Nahor annd you went on to ask why Haran was missing or not mentioned. You perhaps have forgotten this verse,

Genesis 11:28: - And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans.​

which suggest to us that he had returned to Ur to see his father, but that while he was in Ur he died unexpectedly. We are not told how he died in the Bible, but the Book of Jasher does provide a probable cause for his death.

The bible then goes on to tell of the journey to Haran when it recorded the following: -

Genesis 11:31: - And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there.​

where no record of Nahor travelling with Terah, is made, but we learn in later scripture that Nahor also settled in Haran.

Why did Terah leave Ur quickly? The Bible is silent on the reason for leaving Ur but possibly, one of the reasons was to ensure Lot's inheritance of his father's, estate, after his death, otherwise, as the practice was, the estate of haran would have become the possession of Haran's cheif steward.

Again the Book of Jasher provides another explanation as to why Terah left Ur rapidly. Nimrod was wanting to kill Terah and Abraham.

From the silence of the scripture, we can assume that Haran left Ur a number of years earlier during the time of the initial scattering of the people to all parts of the earth, after the building of the Tower of Babel was interrupted by God and built for himself a city which became know as Haran.

Some years later he returns with his son Lot and daughter Milcah to see his father. After Haran's death, Nahor takes Haran's daughter, Milcah as his wife. In Genesis 22: 20-24 we are again introduced to Nahor and Milcah.

It seems to me that you have never asked the question as to "Why is that so?" but have leaned on the babbling of other people to generate what you post.

As such you have accepted what others have written with respect to Acts 7:4 and not questioned as to "Why is that so?" to resolve why both Genesis 12:1 and Acts 7:4 are both true, and accepted an explanation that discredits the truth of Genesis 12:1

You love to forcibly push your understanding of the scriptures on others without the necessities of actually being a learned teacher on the subject matter as you have demonstrated above with your musings.
 
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101G

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@Jay Ross, THAT'S THE WEAKEST EXCUSE I HAVE EVER HEARD. and your excuse in the Joshua 24:2 question you said this, Genesis 11:28: - And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans". well at that time all, of them was dead. and that was not in the context of what Joshua was speaking of.
but by examining your answers, it tell me you have no clue as to what Abraham did. nor his kin people. so when people cannot give a decent answer, and they states that they are the only one right, it's best to leave them be. so J I have to leave you with Revelation 22:11.

Good day.

PICJAG.
 

Jay Ross

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@Jay Ross, THAT'S THE WEAKEST EXCUSE I HAVE EVER HEARD. and your excuse in the Joshua 24:2 question you said this, Genesis 11:28: - And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans". well at that time all, of them was dead. and that was not in the context of what Joshua was speaking of.
but by examining your answers, it tell me you have no clue as to what Abraham did. nor his kin people. so when people cannot give a decent answer, and they states that they are the only one right, it's best to leave them be. so J I have to leave you with Revelation 22:11.

Good day.

PICJAG.

In your rebuttal, you have not stated, "Why it is so?" that my argument for the reason that Joshua 24:2 only mentions Terah, Abraham and Nahor is the weakest excuse that you have heard. You then go on to state, "well at that time all, of them was dead. and that was not the context of what Joshus was speaking of."

Now, I was writing of the time that Terah was living in Ur and as to possibly why Haran was not mentioned in Joshua's monologue with respect to idol worship of the fathers including Terah. Haran had lived in the city of Haran, probably named after him, for possibly 20-30 years before he returned. As such, Haran was not a key person, in the overall story of Abraham and God's Salvation plan for mankind and so not not need to be mentioned by Joshua.

Now both Terah and Nahor also worshipped Idols while they lived in Ur, as well as others of the patriarchs from the time of Noah.

Now to which of the Patriarchs Joshua was referring to, as idol worshippers, he was silent on who they were, except for Terah, Abraham's father.

You also bolster your argument by claiming that I "have no clue as to what Abraham did, nor his kin people," without providing any evidence to support your accusation of my so called ignorance.

As for stating that I had stated I am "the only one right", is another claim of yours that is not found in my post, but you have made this claim to again bolster your reasons as to why I am wrong.

Yes I agree with the sentiment found in Rev 22:11 where it states: -

Revelation 22:11: - He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."​

I am just wondering whether you thought that I was unjust, filthy, righteous or holy and whether you meant to use this verse as a curse or a blessing? Why is that so?
 

Harvest 1874

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No, I am not. I just do not favour one section of the scriptures over another like you have, where you have favoured your wrong understanding of Acts 7:4 over Genesis 11:26. Terah was 70 years old when Abraham was born. This is confirmed in Genesis 22:22-24 when Abraham is told about his family back in Haran that his brother has also children. The reason for learning these details at this time, 60 years after leaving Haran is significant, two years before Sahar dies. Why would Nahor have sent any message to his brother Abraham at this time unless to inform Abraham that their father, Terah, had died. Why the messengers, where tell of the death of his father, Abraham would have also learnt details about Nahor's family. A few years after Sahar died, Abraham sends his chief steward to Haran to find a wife from among his family members who were living in Haran.

Because of your wrong understanding and interpretation of Acts 7:4 you have discounted God's words in Genesis 11:26 in favour of your flawed understanding and interpretation of Acts 7:4 where the term "father" does not necessarily point to a person's biological father but to a person in his lineage from whom he descended. From the Genesis 11 account, the only patriarch who died during the time that Abraham live in Haran was Noah. Stephen was correctly stating that after the death of Abraham's father, Noah, that Abraham left Haran, around 16 years later. Even Jesus and the religious leaders at that time used the term "father" to refer to the patriarchs within their lineage a number of descendant generation previously. However, you have ignored this practice and have adopted the scholarship of people like Bishop Ussher and his flawed chronology of the OT.



In the above your rocket science has two mistakes in it. The first is that you precisely state the scriptures of Genesis 11:10, that Arphaxad was born two years after the flood which began in the 600 years of Noah's life, but you then ignored the following verse Genesis 8:13, which tells us that the flood was over in the 601st year of Noah's life. This means that your statement that the flood was over before it started is in error. This means that Arphaxad was born in the 3rd year after the flood started if we add in the one year for the flood.

The second error is that from the silence of the OT account, you have now chosen to put more credence in the Genesis 12:1 and assumed that Abraham left Haran shortly after God had had entered into a covenant with Abraham in Haran, whereas, Stephen tells us God had entered into a covenantal relationship with Abraham while he was still in Ur of the Chaldean's. Abraham probably spent some 25 years in Haran acquiring flocks and servants for his household before he set out to leave Haran, and had left Ur shortly after he God had spoken to him while he was still in Ur.

This is not rocket science as you have put it, but rocket science relies on accurate facts and you have demonstrated twice in the above calculations that the Biblical facts can be manipulated to suit the story that you want to tell by cherry picking the scriptures to suit the story that you are telling.

I would suggest to you that the error in your above claims in your story is of the order of 80-90 years from the Biblical record given.

Shalom

We have already had this discussion on the chronology before and it was apparent then you preferred to stick with your errors thus I see no reason to go through it all over again.
 

Jay Ross

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We have already had this discussion on the chronology before and it was apparent then you preferred to stick with your errors thus I see no reason to go through it all over again.

What I call an error you call a truth and what I call a truth you call an error.

Who is right will not be determined on this forum, by our piers, but by God/Christ at the time of our judgement. I am secure in what is my understanding of the story of Abraham and the sign posts of when he finally left his father's household when he was 75 years of age.

You belong to a group called the Bible Students, but I prefer to belong to God and to believe what He has actually had recorded. It is how we arrive at our conclusions that forged our differences in our understanding of the scriptures and who we believe.

Shalom
 

Davy

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So, we do know the earth itself is billions of years old. Good, now it is not much of a stretch to believe human bones are older than just a few thousand years.

When it makes sense, it is generally correct.

I don't think there is any real proof of human bones being any older than around 14,000 years old. Some evolution scientists have claimed human remains over 30,000 years ago, but some of those scientists have admitted not knowing how to really operate the equipment for carbon dating, etc. Can't really trust all that.

For me, I see Genesis 1:1 & 1:2 in the same way, but I believe the world before was an angelic existence on earth, not a pre-Adamite flesh one. Perfect human arch fossilized footprints have been found inside dinosaur footprints, both dated to the same time, but no human remains that far back. Reason I think that is, is because it was not a human flesh existence back then, but an angelic existence on earth. A problem many have with understanding this is because of all the Hollywood propaganda about angels as spirits and such, portraying them as ghosts. Per God's Word, angels are able to eat and drink our food, so they must have some kind of substance to them, and that would be able to make foot impressions in soft mud, which is what the fossils with dinosaurs kind of show.
 
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n2thelight

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foot.jpg


A Footprint in Time. . .


This footprint was formed in this rock according to geologists approximately 50 million years ago. The arch on this "foot" showed no signs of being broken down. It was a perfect foot, there were no signs of "wear and tear", like "human" feet tend to show!


This is not the only footprint found in stone. At Dinosaur State Park, in Glenrose, Texas, there are actual "human–type" footprints that have been discovered, which walked across real dinosaur tracks. More "human–type" footprints have also been located along with dinosaur tracks at the Thayers Museum, at Dinosaur Flats in Canyon Lake, Texas.


Dinosaurs became extinct about 65 million years ago, according to scientists. If our Father created all soul, (the sons of God, or angels) in that first world age in which the dinosaurs roamed the earth, and these angels had a "mass" to them, isn't it possible that this footprint was an "angel's" footprint, one of those "sons of God", which sang for joy, as mentioned in book of Job 38:7?
FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
Our FATHER'S WORD states in Genesis 1:26 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: He was speaking to the "Elohim", which in the Hebrew means "God and the angels", or, the "sons of God". If mankind was created in the image of God and the angels, then that means we look like them, and our bodies are similar to theirs. Although we are made of flesh, our physical "appearance" would be much the same as that of the angels... including the footprints they might have left behind in the first world age. If we evolved from an "ape", which the "theory of evolution", suggests, why were human–type footprints preserved in stone which dates to be millions of years old?


In Genesis 6:4, it speaks of when the sons of God, (which were the angels) came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. These angels were able to impregnate human women. There would have to be some kind of substance to them, in order for this to even be possible.


Also, did you know that angels have food in heaven? It is called manna. Men can survive on angels' food and angels have partaken of men's food. This proves there must be a mass to these "sons of God". This manna, is what God fed the children of Israel when they were lost in the wilderness for almost forty years, which is mentioned in the book of Psalms: Psalm 78:23-25 23Though He had commanded the clouds from above, And opened the doors of heaven, 24And had rained down manna upon them to eat, And had given them of the corn of heaven. 25Man did eat angels' food: He sent them meat to the full.
 

Timtofly

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I understand your confusion and your lack of understanding, as you have built your precepts upon other's precepts and the outcome of that folly is that you will fall over backwards and be caught in the snare.

You suggested that I read Gill's commentary on Gen 24:7 and his words condemned him as a person who had no understanding of the passage or the reason why God entered into a solemn covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15:17-21.

The Jewish leadership in Jesus' day believed that their Messiah would restore to them the "Promised Land" but the "Promised Land" had already been forsaken by that time by their continual idolatrous activity. They believed that the land was promised for an indefinite everlasting period of time, whereas, it was promised for a period of time which was just over their horizon of understanding and its duration was limited by the finite period of time that it was being given for and the purpose that the Promised Land was being given.

In Genesis 24:7, Abraham states very clearly that God had promised to Give Abraham and his descendants the whole earth as their inheritance and Daniel 7:27 clearly indicates what their inheritance would be all of the earth "under the whole heaven."

Now since your understanding of God's promises to Abraham is flawed, your foundation of biblical understanding has been built on sand and has no firm foundation.

You went on to mention Joshua 24:2 and wondered why Joshua only mentions Terah and Nahor annd you went on to ask why Haran was missing or not mentioned. You perhaps have forgotten this verse,

Genesis 11:28: - And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans.​

which suggest to us that he had returned to Ur to see his father, but that while he was in Ur he died unexpectedly. We are not told how he died in the Bible, but the Book of Jasher does provide a probable cause for his death.

The bible then goes on to tell of the journey to Haran when it recorded the following: -

Genesis 11:31: - And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there.​

where no record of Nahor travelling with Terah, is made, but we learn in later scripture that Nahor also settled in Haran.

Why did Terah leave Ur quickly? The Bible is silent on the reason for leaving Ur but possibly, one of the reasons was to ensure Lot's inheritance of his father's, estate, after his death, otherwise, as the practice was, the estate of haran would have become the possession of Haran's cheif steward.

Again the Book of Jasher provides another explanation as to why Terah left Ur rapidly. Nimrod was wanting to kill Terah and Abraham.

From the silence of the scripture, we can assume that Haran left Ur a number of years earlier during the time of the initial scattering of the people to all parts of the earth, after the building of the Tower of Babel was interrupted by God and built for himself a city which became know as Haran.

Some years later he returns with his son Lot and daughter Milcah to see his father. After Haran's death, Nahor takes Haran's daughter, Milcah as his wife. In Genesis 22: 20-24 we are again introduced to Nahor and Milcah.

It seems to me that you have never asked the question as to "Why is that so?" but have leaned on the babbling of other people to generate what you post.

As such you have accepted what others have written with respect to Acts 7:4 and not questioned as to "Why is that so?" to resolve why both Genesis 12:1 and Acts 7:4 are both true, and accepted an explanation that discredits the truth of Genesis 12:1

You love to forcibly push your understanding of the scriptures on others without the necessities of actually being a learned teacher on the subject matter as you have demonstrated above with your musings.
Have you ever compared Abraham and the historical account of the king Hammurabi?

And Marduk with Nimrod?
 

Joseph77

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Have you ever compared Abraham and the historical account of the king Hammurabi?

And Marduk with Nimrod?
Abraham seems 7 inches taller.

:)


Those pagan (unbliblical ) stories are often made up or changed , for purposes related to deceiving nations.
 

Jay Ross

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Have you ever compared Abraham and the historical account of the king Hammurabi?

And Marduk with Nimrod?

A little more information is required as to the source of this event reference so that i can identify the actual question that you are asking.