God "spiritualizes" EVERYTHING.

[ScottA]

Are you talking about spiritualizing the texts of the bible my friend? There are some verses that have to be read through that lens, but overall, the bible is to be read literally. There does have to be a balance. If you read every verse spiritually, everything is up for grabs. If you read every verse literally, the bible becomes wooden, rigid, stiff. But it needs to be read literally unless it is to be understood in a spiritual sense.

No...nothing is up for grabs, God is in control, and it is He who has made manifest the spiritual things on high that many would like to call reality when He has clearly stated that it is an image and a likeness giving the world a dim view of His actual reality. So, no, "reading literally" is of the world. He is not "balancing" light from darkness...He is dividing it. Thus, "rightly dividing the word of truth", is to divide the dark would-be reality of the world from the spiritual reality of God. But God is spirit. Spirit begets spirit. The would-be reality that we see manifest in the world and explained in scripture, begets only the darkness that it speaks of. In other words, we are not suppose to make a religion of the dark manifestations made visible in this fallen world, we are suppose to see and hear and discern both good and evil. For He has put before us both good and evil, and tells us to chose life.

 

[ScottA]

Of course God spiritualizes things, and it's at the heart of understanding what much of Jewish customs ultimately symbolized. But this does not mean that all literal things cease to exist, or that all literal interpretations of prophecy are no longer applicable.

Paul taught both a resurrection in Spirit and a resurrection in the flesh, did he not?

Btw, what's up with you lately? You seem to be starting fights with people before they've even responded yet. *scratching head*

It's a war, and would-be "christians" are aiding the enemy.

But, no, Paul did not teach "a resurrection in Spirit and a resurrection in the flesh." He taught that "what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be."

And, you have what you consider "literal" upside down and backwards. There is nothing literal in the world - it's all created - out of nothing, to which it will return, burned in the fires and wrath of all mighty God. God is spirit. That is the only literal reality.

 

[ScottA]

And this doen't mean to spiritualize as in explain away something real and effective by making it conceptual and ethereal. Everything in reality has a spiritual force behind it. And many times even those forces have other forces above them.....allowing them to be at work. We so often see things in such a shallow way. But there is more to a thing than the human eye can see.

The "spiritual force" is the reality. The "everything" of the world, is not.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But, no, Paul did not teach "a resurrection in Spirit and a resurrection in the flesh."

Which one don't you believe in; that our fleshly bodies will be resurrected?

And, you have what you consider "literal" upside down and backwards. There is nothing literal in the world - it's all created - out of nothing, to which it will return, burned in the fires and wrath of all mighty God. God is spirit. That is the only literal reality.

I'm judging by this sentence that you don't believe in the bodily resurrection then.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Do we need to review the v again? The world is not mentioned in there at all, and neither is the Spirit

Matthew 5:19 Lexicon: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

New International Version
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

New Living Translation
So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

English Standard Version
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Berean Study Bible
So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Berean Literal Bible
Whoever then shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach others the same, he will be called least in the kingdom of the

Are you okay?

 

[ScottA]

Is he? One day when he judges the world yes he will, untill then we have to deal with a physical as well as a spiritual reality.

Is spiritualising wrong? Only if it stresses the spiritual when it should be dealing with the physical.

You verbalize the same misunderstanding and error that the Pharisees and leaders in Israel had about the Sabbath, which prompted Jesus to correct them, saying "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, they had it backwards...and so do many as yourself.

When Christ said that "the flesh profits nothing", He gave us the actual value of the physical world, which He also told us to "give no thought" of. Saying also, to "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Which is a far cry from giving the physical world equal time and place.

But don't get me wrong, Jesus did eliminate the physical and tell us that it was not a factor. But He did clearly state the priorities between them, just as the scriptures tell us, which is that all is "vanity", meaning emptiness. But that does not mean the physical world does not have purpose...because it does - but it is not god. The purpose is prison, the dividing of good and evil, darkness and light, salvation, judgement, and the condemnation of wickedness. And we should know better, that when God said, "Let there be light", it was to (as Paul preached) to "expose the darkness." Thus, we should know better than to return to "the beggarly elements."

 

[ScottA]

Which one don't you believe in; that our fleshly bodies will be resurrected?


I'm judging by this sentence that you don't believe in the bodily resurrection then.

I already quoted the truth from Paul...which you seem to have skipped over or been blind to: There is no fleshly body resurrection.

Nothing in scripture tells us that the flesh will enter the kingdom of heaven - just the opposite.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You verbalize the same misunderstanding and error that the Pharisees and leaders in Israel had about the Sabbath, which prompted Jesus to correct them, saying "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, they had it backwards...and so do many as yourself.

When Christ said that "the flesh profits nothing", He gave us the actual value of the physical world, which He also told us to "give no thought" of. Saying also, to "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Which is a far cry from giving the physical world equal time and place.

But don't get me wrong, Jesus did eliminate the physical and tell us that it was not a factor. But He did clearly state the priorities between them, just as the scriptures tell us, which is that all is "vanity", meaning emptiness. But that does not mean the physical world does not have purpose...because it does - but it is not god. The purpose is prison, the dividing of good and evil, darkness and light, salvation, judgement, and the condemnation of wickedness. And we should know better, that when God said, "Let there be light", it was to (as Paul preached) to "expose the darkness." Thus, we should know better than to return to "the beggarly elements."

Scott, God's intent is to restore the earth to Paradise, as it was created in the beginning. That's why Paradise continued to exist, both in Sheol and then in Heaven, and will again in the New Heaven and New earth.

Your theology sounds a lot like Gnosticism.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I already quoted the truth from Paul...which you seem to have skipped over or been blind to: There is no fleshly body resurrection.

Ok, let me quote the entire passage:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Now, v.42 says "It" is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption. What is the "it" here if not the physical body?
V.53 says "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." What is the "corruptible" and the "mortal" here if not the physical body? And what is it that "puts on" immortality?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

It is not a word in the dictionary or in my vocabulary...so perhaps those who have taken it up as a weapon against the Spirit would like to give their definition.

I just know that it is the defense of many who speak against the fact that the words of Christ (meaning the scriptures) "are spirit", just as He said.

No, I want you to define it since you brought it up and stated it.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Jesus did eliminate the physical and tell us that it was not a factor. But He did clearly state the priorities between them, just as the scriptures tell us, which is that all is "vanity", meaning emptiness. But that does not mean the physical world does not have purpose...because it does - but it is not god.

I have not said or implied that the physical is 'god'.

We however are physical and what we do affects us. Some people find that doing things while worshipping helps their worship, so crossing onesself, raising hands, kneeling, standing are physical acts that help some people worship.
Holding a bible and following the words durring a bible reading is another physical method of taking part in a service.

Yes we are to worship in Spirit and in truth, but that is not an instruction to rmove everything physical out of Christian worship.

Worship is far more than a church service and most of the rest of Christian worship is all physical.
I'm talking about Christian service, do-gooding.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, God's intent is to restore the earth to Paradise, as it was created in the beginning. That's why Paradise continued to exist, both in Sheol and then in Heaven, and will again in the New Heaven and New earth.

Your theology sounds a lot like Gnosticism.

If you resort to 'isms and name calling, this is going nowhere.

You are not even hearing yourself. You "earth" and "new earth" and consider them the same. They are not. The elements of this world, including the flesh are to be burned with fire.

Why is it that you cannot transition from this "earth" which is a fallen refuge for the wicked for a time, and the promise of spiritual perfection with God and all that is "new?"

I am advocating for the "new"...but you debate me, when these things are not even debatable.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, let me quote the entire passage:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Now, v.42 says "It" is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption. What is the "it" here if not the physical body?
V.53 says "this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." What is the "corruptible" and the "mortal" here if not the physical body? And what is it that "puts on" immortality?

Not that body. 1 Corinthians 15:37

You quote, but do not see that it says there are two different bodies, one natural and one spiritual.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you resort to 'isms and name calling, this is going nowhere.

I'm not name calling. I'm simply telling you that it strikes me as similar to the early Gnostic beliefs.

You are not even hearing yourself. You "earth" and "new earth" and consider them the same. They are not. The elements of this world, including the flesh are to be burned with fire.

I don't doubt that the earth will be burned with fire, but this is yet again another case in point: Will the earth be renewed, or will God completely obliterate this one and create a new one? I believe He is going to renew this one in a glorified state, not obliterate and then replace it. So too will it be with the physical bodies of the redeemed.

 

[ScottA]

No, I want you to define it since you brought it up and stated it.

It is not my word. If I were to define it by its use, I would have to say that it is a weapon of Satan, a word against God, whom is spirit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not that body. 1 Corinthians 15:37

1 Corinthians 15:36. "How can it be quickened unless it dies..." Unless what dies? The physical body.

 

[ScottA]

I have not said or implied that the physical is 'god'.

We however are physical and what we do affects us. Some people find that doing things while worshipping helps their worship, so crossing onesself, raising hands, kneeling, standing are physical acts that help some people worship.
Holding a bible and following the words durring a bible reading is another physical method of taking part in a service.

Yes we are to worship in Spirit and in truth, but that is not an instruction to rmove everything physical out of Christian worship.

Worship is far more than a church service and most of the rest of Christian worship is all physical.
I'm talking about Christian service, do-gooding.

You are talking about doing good in the world, which we are indeed instructed to do. That is not the point I am making or addressing. That is all secondary to first seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness. God is spirit. So...if we are to put him first, it is not physical, not flesh, but spiritual.

And many have that so backward they have come to believe in "glorified fleshly bodies", the old earth being saved from eternal fire from God, and such. It's nonsense.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not name calling. I'm simply telling you that it strikes me as similar to the early Gnostic beliefs.


I don't doubt that the earth will be burned with fire, but this is yet again another case in point: Will the earth be renewed, or will God completely obliterate this one and create a new one? I believe He is going to renew this one in a glorified state, not obliterate and then replace it. So too will it be with the physical bodies of the redeemed.

Which is ironically contrary to the promise of redemption, and a disservice to God in the sharing of the gospel, our commission. "Behold, I make all things new." Remember?

 

[ScottA]

1 Corinthians 15:36. "How can it be quickened unless it dies..." Unless what dies? The physical body.

We're not going to get this unless you include the complete word from God. Let me skip to the end: “Behold, I make all things new.”

 

[marks]

I already quoted the truth from Paul...which you seem to have skipped over or been blind to: There is no fleshly body resurrection.

Nothing in scripture tells us that the flesh will enter the kingdom of heaven - just the opposite.

Thank you!

That's all I needed to hear. You deny the resurrection, so I suppose you likewise deny Jesus' physical resurrection.

And those who read the Bible for what it says know what that means.

Much love!
Mark