God's Personal Name & New World Translation

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yup, I use this a lot, remember, they don't believe in Yeshua, so your point is moot.

No actually it isn't, but you believe what you want.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yup, I use this a lot, remember, they don't believe in Yeshua, so your point is moot.

Actually it's not moot, but you believe what you choose to but they not believing in yeshua doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making when speaking about YHWH God who the Jews do believe in. It was the True God's name YHWH I was discussing, not Yeshua.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If God's unique name had still been in use, there would be no disputes about many things....the trinity, the identification of "the only true God" and the "one he sent", (John 17:3) and the fact that it was not Yahweh who "became flesh", but the Logos.

Understanding of the Greek word "theos" would also confirm that both Yahweh and his son can rightly be called by that designation since Strongs gives the primary definition as....."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".
Jesus can be "divine" without being Almighty God.....which he never once claimed to be, otherwise these debate would be pointless.

If God's name was still in use, we would see what John 1:1 actually states, in accord with what Jews and Greeks understood "theos" to mean.

That verse would have read...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine."

 

[Johann]

Jesus can be "divine" without being Almighty God.....which he never once claimed to be, otherwise these debate would be pointless.

Already addressed this, you seem to place Christ Jesus in a subordinate kind of way, or "lesser" maybe "inferior"
My posts are everywhere, you can peruse at your leisure, or forbear.

 

[Johann]

True God's name YHWH

Actually, it is YHVH, not YHWH, but we don't want to split hairs no, do we?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Already addressed this, you seem to place Christ Jesus in a subordinate kind of way, or "lesser" maybe "inferior"

Scripture states that he was inferior to his God, but superior to all other creation......never once did he ever say he was his Father's equal.
Being the unique and "only begotten son of God" makes him second only to his Father, but he is a "servant" none the less. (Acts 4:27)

Philippians 2:6 is often used to suggest some kind of equality, but if you read the whole scripture you see that it is just the opposite.

Taken from the Mounce Greek Interlinear we find something interesting compared to the KJV related versions....which render verse 6...
"who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God"...what a dreadful translation!

It should read....from the Greek....
6 who hos, although he was hyparchō in en the form morphē of God theos, did hēgeomai not ou regard hēgeomai equality isos with God theos a thing to be eimi grasped harpagmos".

Bad or misleading translation is at the bottom of most false doctrine.

What else do we find in the whole passage of scripture in Philippians 2:5-11 ESV?
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

What else do you notice there? Jesus was "in the form of God"...what "form" does God have? John tells us that "God is a spirit", so Jesus too had spirit form before his earthly mission. All of the inhabitants of the spirit realm have spirit form. It is an invisible realm filled with invisible beings.....invisible to humans anyway unless they materialize, which some did in the Bible record.

"Born in the likeness of men he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death".....to whom was Jesus obedient? Can God be obedient to himself? Can God be his own "servant"? Does God talk to himself?

Once he had completed his earthly mission, God "highly exalted him and bestowed a name on him that is above every name"....
How does God highly exalt an equal part of himself? How does he give his son a name higher that what God already has? (Psalm 83:18) There is no name higher than "The Most High". Yahweh has no other name, whereas Jesus has many names, depending on the role that he is playing.

So, in recognition of his faithful course in redeeming the human race, every living thing will bend the knee (an act of honor and respect) to Jesus Christ...."and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"....but not not God...and this is "to the glory of God the Father."...not to the glory of the son.

Scripture has to be read as it was written in the understanding of the writer and his audience. First century Christians, like the ancient Jews, were not trinitarians. They used only Jewish scripture and letters from the apostles.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

This proves that the doctrine was not officially adopted into the church until over 300 years after Jesus died, hence not part of Jesus' teachings, and not part of what the apostles taught either.

My posts are everywhere, you can peruse at your leisure, or forbear.

I have no need to peruse your posts actually.....your beliefs are not my beliefs. I am not even sure what or whose teachings you follow....?

 

[Dropship]

Surely trying to slap a name on God is surely a bit disrespectful to him by trying to make him sound more human?
There are many heathen "gods" around with names, but our God is too big and awesome to have a name, he said as much when he set Moses straight at the burning bush..-

 

[Johann]

I have no need to peruse your posts actually.....your beliefs are not my beliefs. I am not even sure what or whose teachings you follow....?

Your teaching and mine are heteros


Whenever the deity of Jesus comes up in conversations with people from different faiths, it is common to hear the standard objection, “But Jesus never said, ‘I am God.’” How might we approach this objection?

In his book The Case For The Real Jesus, Lee Strobel says that if you search for Jesus at Amazon.com, you will find 175, 986 books on the most controversial figure in human history. The New Testament does not reveal Jesus as any ordinary prophet or religious teacher. Rather, it reveals Him as God incarnate (John 1:1; 8:58-59;10:29-31;14:8-9;20-28; Phil. 2:5-7; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1).

There are some good reasons as to why Jesus would never say “I am God.” The Jewish Scriptures forbids worshiping anyone other than the God of Israel (Ex. 20:1–5; Deut. 5:6–9). And for Jesus to ever say something so explicit would insinuate that he was calling upon his audience to believe in two “Gods”- the God of Israel and Jesus. Also, for Gentiles, such a claim would allow for Jesus to fit nicely into their polytheism (the belief in many gods).

In Judaism, there is a term called “avodah zarah” which is defined as the formal recognition or worship as God of an entity that is in fact not God. In other words, any acceptance of a non-divine entity as your deity is a form of avodah zarah. (2)

One way to answer this objection is to discuss what is called Implicit and Explicit Christology:

Second, remember the following. As Marvin Wilson says:

The God of Israel was distinct in other ways. Yahweh had an invisible presence; he was pure spirit (John 4: 24). On occasion, however, he manifested himself in visible form. Appearances of the angel of the Lord, and the pillar of smoke by day and the fire by night in the wilderness, were external manifestations of the presence of God. God himself is an incorporeal being; he does not have a body. But the Old Testament often describes God in anthropomorphic and anthropopathic language. The Torah strictly forbids images and idols of Israel’s God (Exod. 20: 3-6). Yahweh could not be represented in material form. Since Yahweh was incorporeal, Israel’s religion could not be destroyed. When the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in a.d. 70, Judaism was not destroyed. Judaism simply became a religion of the home, a new “temple in miniature.” Throughout Israel’s history, it was God’s intention that his people grasp that he was different from other deities. He was an infinite, invisible, transcendent Being, not some local, destructible, concrete entity shaped by human hands. Divine Presence was not to be equated with physical form or works of art. Yahweh could be worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem or he could be worshiped away from the Temple. When Israel worshiped by the waters of Babylon in captivity, God was there. Today, in theological literature and ecumenical discussion, the Tetragrammaton is usually pronounced “Yahweh.” Whether this pronunciation is exact, or not, must remain uncertain. The lengthy tradition — from Second Temple times — of not taking this sacred name on one’s lips resulted in its pronunciation becoming lost. To avoid possible misuse of the name in synagogue liturgy and Scripture reading, Jews began to render the Tetragrammaton “Adonai,” a tradition that has continued to this day. Today, in addition to Adonai, sometimes other expressions are used in addressing God. These names include Ha-Shem (“ The Name”), Ha-Makom (“ The Place”), Ha-Kadosh Barukh Hu (“ The Holy One, Blessed Be He”), Shekinah (“ Divine Presence”), Ribono shel Olam (“ Master of the World”), Ein Soph (“ Infinite One”), and others. Many Christian scholars, when reading Hebrew texts, usually pronounce the Tetragrammaton “Adonai,” out of respect for the Jewish tradition. (Marvin R, Wilson, Exploring Our Hebraic Heritage: A Christian Theology of Roots and Renewal (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company), 139-140).
In a desperate attempt to debunk the One in Being, Three in Person, Jesus must take a "lesser role"

As to John 1:18

The only begotten Son (ho monogenēs huios). This is the reading of the Textus Receptus and is intelligible after hōs monogenous para patros in Joh_1:14. But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read monogenēs theos (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text. Probably some scribe changed it to ho monogenēs huios to obviate the blunt statement of the deity of Christ and to make it like Joh_3:16. But there is an inner harmony in the reading of the old uncials. The Logos is plainly called theos in Joh_1:1. The Incarnation is stated in Joh_1:14, where he is also termed monogenēs. He was that before the Incarnation. So he is “God only begotten,” “the Eternal Generation of the Son” of Origen’s phrase.
Robertson

The only begotten son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς)
Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς, “God only begotten.”
Another and minor difference in reading relates to the article, which is omitted from μονογενὴς by most of the authorities which favor Θεὸς. Whether we read the only begotten Son, or God only begotten, the sense of the passage is not affected. The latter reading merely combines in one phrase the two attributes of the word already indicated - God (Joh_1:1), only begotten (Joh_1:14); the sense being one who was both God and only begotten.
Vincent

I would submit to you that Messiah is YHVH, in no way inferior to the Father.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Because He is all in all.

True, but I am is not His name sir. Many people say that, but why do you suppose that is?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Dropship said,
Surely trying to slap a name on God is surely a bit disrespectful to him by trying to make him sound more human?[/QUOTE\]

You're being disrespectful to YHWH God who gave himself the name YHWH and inspired men to put it in the scriptures over 7,000 times. You honestly think God was being disrespectful to himself when he gave himself the name YHWH, and inspired men to put it in the Bible over 7,000 times?

 

[tigger 2]

Although the original pronunciation was probably Yehowah - see my study here Examining the Trinity: PRONOUNCE (God's Name) - it has become Jehovah in English (because of its going from Hebrew through Latin to Elizabethan English to modern English). See link.

 

[ScottA]

True, but I am is not His name sir. Many people say that, but why do you suppose that is?

I can only answer for myself, in which case it is because it was the answer given to Moses first before He elaborated regarding Israel. And because it is echoed by Jesus in spirit.

What is it that you were referring to?

 

[tigger 2]

I can only answer for myself, in which case it is because it was the answer given to Moses first before He elaborated regarding Israel. And because it is echoed by Jesus in spirit.

What is it that you were referring to?

..................................................
"I am" at Ex. 3:14 is properly translated as "I will be" (see Ex. 3:12) and is simply a 1st person use of the meaning of His personal name - Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

Why would God have YHWH used as his personal name around 7000 times, insisting that it be known, but only uses ehyeh this one time?

 

[tigger 2]

“Nevertheless, Exod. 3 does not appear to give a new name for the first time but the explanation of a name known already but now identified as the saving God of Israel....” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 69, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

In its commentary to Exodus 3:14, the JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition states:

"God's proper name disclosed in the next verse is YHVH (spelled yod-heh-vav-heh. In Heb., in ancient times, the "vav" was pronounced "w"). But here God first tells Moses its meaning; ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, probably best translated as "I will be what I will be" meaning: "My nature will become evident from my actions."


“The name of God
“Israel’s ancestors knew God as ‘the LORD’, Yahweh (or Jehovah) (Genesis 2:4; Gen 12:1; Gen 26:2; Gen 28:21; Gen 49:18), but the name meant little to the Israelites of Moses’ time. God’s revelation to Moses in the ‘I am’ statement of Exodus 3:14 was an explanation of what the name Yahweh should have meant to God’s people.” - Bridgeway Bible Commentary.

“God had made Himself known to Abraham as Jehovah (Genesis 15:7). But here [Ex. 3:14] He gives the explanation of His name Jehovah. The patriarchs knew the name Jehovah, but the blessed significance of that name was not known to them.” - Arno Gaebelein's Annotated Bible.

NET Bible fn. for Ex, 3:14,15 - “First the verb “I AM” [ehyeh] was used (v. 14) in place of the name to indicate its meaning and to remind Moses of God’s promise to be with him (v. 12). Now in v. 15 the actual name is used for clear identification: “Yahweh…has sent me.” This is the name that the patriarchs invoked and proclaimed in the land of Canaan.”

 

[Robert Gwin]

I can only answer for myself, in which case it is because it was the answer given to Moses first before He elaborated regarding Israel. And because it is echoed by Jesus in spirit.

What is it that you were referring to?

Then why did you not give the name Jehovah gave to Moses? What name did God give him Scott? I would tell you, but I want you to see it for yourself.

 

[ScottA]

..................................................
"I am" at Ex. 3:14 is properly translated as "I will be" (see Ex. 3:12) and is simply a 1st person use of the meaning of His personal name - Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

Why would God have YHWH used as his personal name around 7000 times, insisting that it be known, but only uses ehyeh this one time?

I should think that it is because when asked who He was, answering with "I am", was a statement rather than an answer...that He is all that which is written of Him--and more.

 

[ScottA]

Then why did you not give the name Jehovah gave to Moses? What name did God give him Scott? I would tell you, but I want you to see it for yourself.

This is the exchange between God and Moses:

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you."
​

Is that not what you are referring to?

 

[tigger 2]

This is the exchange between God and Moses:

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you."
​

​

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

 

[ScottA]

​

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Yes, which elaboration was added for the fathers of Israel who would recognize Him by that name. But first He said "I AM" when Moses ask what name.

 

[tigger 2]

Yes, which elaboration was added for the fathers of Israel who would recognize Him by that name. But first He said "I AM" when Moses ask what name.

...................................................

It is very clear that although YHWH (Jehovah) is used many thousands of times as God’s personal name throughout the OT by God Himself and His followers, the word ehyeh is used only once (Ex.3:14) for God.

The New Bible Dictionary, Douglas (ed.), 1962, pp. 478, 479, published by Eerdmans, explains it well:

“Strictly speaking, Yahweh [or ‘Jehovah’ in traditional English form] is the only ‘name’ of God .... Elohim [the Hebrew word translated ‘God’ in English] says, ‘this [YHWH] is my name for ever’ (Ex. 3:15). Yahweh [Jehovah], therefore, in contrast with Elohim [‘God’], is a proper noun, the name of a person .... He [Moses] inquires, ‘when ... the children of Israel ... shall say, what (mah [in Hebrew]) is his name? What shall I say unto them?’ (Ex. 3:13). The normal way to ask a name is to use the [Hebrew] pronoun mî; to use mah invites an answer which goes further, and gives the meaning (‘what?’) or substance of the name.”

[[For an example of this, see Ex. 13:14 in the NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament. Mah, exactly as in Ex. 3:13, clearly has this meaning and is even translated in the NRSV; RSV; REB; NAB; NJB; JB; NIV as “what does this mean?” Perhaps an even better parallel is the use of mah at Ezekiel 37:18 where mah is rendered as "what you mean" in KJV; NASB; RSV; NRSV; REB; NAB; NJB; JB; NIV; etc. Also carefully examine the use of mah at Gen. 37:10; Ex. 12:26; Deut. 6:20; 29:24; Josh. 4:6, 21; 1 Sam. 4:6, 14; 15:14; Ezek. 17:12; 18:2.]]

“This helps to explain the reply, namely, ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said, ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM [ehyeh] hath sent me unto you’ (Ex. 3:14). By this Moses would not think that God was announcing a new name, nor is it called a ‘name’; it is just the inner meaning of the name Moses [and the Israelites already] knew. We have here a play upon words; ‘Yahweh’ is interpreted by ehyeh. M. Buber translates ‘I will be as I will be’ and expounds it as a promise of God’s power and enduring presence with them in the process of deliverance.[15] That something like this is the purport of these words, which in English sound enigmatical, is shown by what follows, ‘Yahweh [‘Jehovah’] the God of your fathers .... this is my name for ever’ (15). The full content [meaning] of the name comes first, the name itself follows.” (The New Bible Dictionary, 2nd ed., Douglas, 1982, Tyndale House, p. 430, is nearly identical to the above quote also.) - [Material in double brackets and emphasis added by me – RDB.]

“Nevertheless, Exod. 3 does not appear to give a new name for the first time but the explanation of a name known already but now identified as the saving God of Israel....” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 69, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

In its commentary to Exodus 3:14, the JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition states:

"God's proper name disclosed in the next verse is YHVH (spelled yod-heh-vav-heh. In Heb., in ancient times, the "vav" was pronounced "w"). But here God first tells Moses its meaning; ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, probably best translated as "I will be what I will be" meaning: "My nature will become evident from my actions."


“The name of God

“Israel’s ancestors knew God as ‘the LORD’, Yahweh (or Jehovah) (Genesis 2:4; Gen 12:1; Gen 26:2; Gen 28:21; Gen 49:18), but the name meant little to the Israelites of Moses’ time. God’s revelation to Moses in the ‘I am’ statement of Exodus 3:14 was an explanation of what the name Yahweh should have meant to God’s people.” - Bridgeway Bible Commentary.

“God had made Himself known to Abraham as Jehovah (Genesis 15:7). But here [Ex. 3:14] He gives the explanation of His name Jehovah. The patriarchs knew the name Jehovah, but the blessed significance of that name was not known to them.” - Arno Gaebelein's Annotated Bible.

NET Bible fn. for Ex, 3:14,15 - “First the verb ‘I AM’ [ehyeh] was used (v. 14) in place of the name to indicate its meaning and to remind Moses of God’s promise to be with him (v. 12). Now in v. 15 the actual name is used for clear identification: ‘Yahweh…has sent me.’ This is the name that the patriarchs invoked and proclaimed in the land of Canaan.”

So we see that Moses is really asking at Ex. 3:13, “when the children of Israel shall say ‘what is the meaning [mah] of his name?’ What shall I say to them?” Therefore, what is given in Ex. 3:14 is not his name at all (which they all knew already) but the meaning (or “explanation”) of his personal name “Jehovah.” That name (which even Moses knew at this time - his mother’s name, in fact, at Ex. 6:20, means “Jehovah is glory” according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance) is plainly stated in Ex. 3:15 and obviously is to be known and used as God’s personal name forever by all his true worshipers. Contrast the 7000 times that “Jehovah” is clearly used as God’s name in the scriptures with how many times “I AM” (or ehyeh) is clearly used for God’s name (none)!