God's Personal Name & New World Translation
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That is an assertion which is pointless unless you provide proof...please do.
Show us where we 'fabricate' anything......give us the proof that what you say is true, and not just what some opposer has told you...
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes sir that is exactly what I am referring to, so why did you cut Him off in the middle of what He told Moses His name was, I AM was not His name, but a quality of His name that He went on to give Scott. So now continue on, and what name did God give Moses that would be His name forever as found in the very next verse? Secondly, why do you suppose most people stop where you did and say His name is I AM?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Thanks, that's all very informative!
However, personally--which was the nature of the Original Post question, it all brings me full circle to "it is just the inner meaning of the name." That inner meaning is indeed what is behind the names also given, just as most names are--and it is that inner meaning that I prefer. Just as many would think it right to call my own father Mr., I would never do that, but prefer to call him what He is, that being my father, or Dad.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
......................................................
Answers to trinitarian language experts who claim that the NWT fabricates:
Examining the Trinity
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Please see post #84.
The reason is not that I cut Him off, but rather that He added on for the sake of Israel who would recognize those other names. But according to the explanation given in post #80, I was happy with "just the inner meaning of the name" as they explained it...just as it was God's first inclination to give it first before clarifying it all for Israel, that there should be no doubt.
I suppose most people stop where I have also stopped considering God's name to be "I AM", is as I said before: because we are not that Israel to whom He elaborated all the more, but have picked the matter of God's name up with Jesus who echoed the same words of "inner meaning", who is now given the name above every other.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Likely the problem lies in the version of the Bible you choose as your primary, which altered God's name. You must not realize the importance of Jehovah's name perhaps not even realizing that calling upon His name is a requirement for salvation Rom 10:13. His name occurs in the oldest manuscripts we believe 6973 times, in the Hebrew passages alone. You may be familiar that the oldest passages available of the Greek Scriptures do not have it at all, but we firmly believe that the original penmen used God's name, and especially would have not changed it when they quoted Hebrew passages in their texts.
According to Jesus, he made God's name known Jn 17:26, and of course his followers make it known as well Rom 10:14,15. You do not personally have one close friend you do not call by name, and knowing and being a friend of God is a requirement for salvation as well. It would be impossible for us to make God's name known to others without using it.
Here are multiple examples of God's people using or calling Him by name sir: (Genesis 4:1) . . .In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah. . .
(Genesis 4:26) . . .At that time a start was made of calling on the name of Jehovah.
(Genesis 9:26) . . .And he added: “Blessed be Jehovah, Shem’s God,. . .
(Genesis 12:8) . . .Then he built an altar there to Jehovah and began to call on the name of Jehovah.
(Numbers 5:21) . . .“May Jehovah set you for a cursing and an oath in the midst of your people by Jehovah’s letting your thigh fall away, and your belly swell.
(Numbers 6:22-26) . . .Then Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying: 23 “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, ‘This is the way YOU should bless the sons of Israel, saying to them: 24 “May Jehovah bless you and keep you. 25 May Jehovah make his face shine toward you, and may he favor you. 26 May Jehovah lift up his face toward you and assign peace to you.”’
(Numbers 27:15-17) . . .Then Moses spoke to Jehovah, saying: 16 “Let Jehovah the God of the spirits of all sorts of flesh appoint over the assembly a man 17 who will go out before them and who will come in before them and who will bring them out and who will bring them in, that Jehovah’s assembly may not become like sheep that have no shepherd.”
And still today this is established: (Acts 15:14) . . .Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Again, that is all very informative, and I do appreciate it. But I also fear that much is lost in referring to or the "making many books" of which "there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh."
You also connect it to what is "requirement for salvation", of which I also have personal knowledge. And therefore, it is my witness that according to all that you have shared, I would not have called upon the rightful name of God, but instead just approached Him as "God" by my then almost non-existent knowledge; and that if He had not received my cry to Him by what was rather in my heart--then He would not have answered...and yet He did, which to me was salvation and life everlasting. And for this reason, I am rather also satisfied at that same point and measure as He extended to me.
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
You have stated a lot of words to do your utmost to give reasons not to use God's name, so I guess this topic is exhausted Scott.
What is God's Personal Name?
OP ^
Every NAME, God has revealed to call Him.
Ex;
I Am
Jehovah
JAH
JESUS
Same as Every, Title God has revealed to call Him.
Ex;
LORD
Lord
KING
Same as Every, Express Description God has revealed to Apply to Him.
Ex.
Spirit
Everlasting
Holy
Creator
Maker
ROCK
Faithful
True
Savior
Heavenly Father
Son
Christ
Power
Word
Wisdom
Sinless
Righteous
Good
Deliverer
Light
Overcomer
Giver
Taker
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
Every NAME, God has revealed to call Him.
Ex;
I Am
Jehovah
JAH
JESUS
Same as Every, Title God has revealed to call Him.
Ex;
LORD
Lord
KING
Same as Every, Express Description God has revealed to Apply to Him.
Ex.
Spirit
Everlasting
Holy
Creator
Maker
ROCK
Faithful
True
Savior
Heavenly Father
Son
Christ
Power
Word
Wisdom
Sinless
Righteous
Good
Deliverer
Light
Overcomer
Giver
Taker
Glory to God,
Taken
When men Translate, Transcript...TRUTHS into lies the Truths are lost...(as intended, to promote a False Truth)
The premise of “just making Scripture more modern for men to read”..
is a Deceptive hoax, that men OF the world promote.
Same men who Erase and Rewrite History in school books.
Same men in charge of children, (8 hours a day for 13+ years), who use WORLD philosophies, filling their minds with Lies and Rewarding them for accepting the lies.
Today.......
Bad is called Good
Wicked is called a Cool good thing.
Sick is called a Cool good thing.
Quitting is called good.
Tolerating Abominations is called good.
Hearing, Seeing, Abominable things is called, Acceptable Choices for Adults, but if a kid ask your parent if it’s ok.
Being drugged, poisoned is okay, promoted as good.
Forcing Oppression is called good.
Promoted, accepted, and daily common place in the formative minds of young children.
The list goes on and on...
Yes Scripture IS full of Gods glorious Titles...but eh you know, possessing a Bible is a benchmark of a good thing according men in the world...
Reading the Bible is SO OUT OF VOGUE, according to men of the world.
Why bother to spend ones time READING and VERIFYING Gods TRUTH, when 24-7 ones ears can be filled with Deceptions passed off as Gods Truth.
Men in the world are angry, God is angry and men of the world are steady pushing their agendas, that they are the worlds saviors and safety net.
Brothers IN Christ, ARE securely prepared, patiently waiting, for Gods Anger to wax HOT to wrath...and SEND His Tribulations upon the Earth.
See ya soon.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Not for not, but for.
Thus, while it is certainly all well and good to call God by His surname, I am happy to call Him by His given name.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
So then why haven't you Scott? His people certainly address Him by His name 1 Kings 8:28, and use it in their conversations with each other as well as the verses I quoted you did. Who do you suppose is behind the suppression of Jehovah's name sir?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
God Himself is behind what He has done in Christ whose given name is above every name. It is a new day.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
....................................................
Do you know the meaning of "Hallelujah"? Why would this phrase be used for the Father in Rev. 19:1-6 if the name were not to be used by Christians?
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
It was the generation following the destruction of the Temple which brought about a final rupture between Jews and Christians .... In the third rebellion against Rome [132-135 A.D.], when the Christians were unable to accept bar Kochba as their Messiah, they declared that their kingdom was of the other world, and withdrew themselves completely from Judaism and everything Jewish. The alienation process was completed. Judaism and Christianity became strangers to each other .... A wall of misunderstanding and hate was erected by the narrow zealotries of the two faiths. [pp. 152, 153, Jews, God and History, Max I. Dimont, A Signet Book, 1962.]
“[Bar Kochba] ... tortured and killed the Christians who refused to aid him against the Roman army.” [p. 42, Greek Apologists of the Second Century, Robert M. Grant, The Westminster Press, 1988.]
“Another Christian apologist, Justin [Martyr], tells how ... Bar Kochba, the leader of the insurrection, ordered Christians alone to be executed if they would not deny and curse Jesus the Messiah.” [Ibid.]
“After the war [some time after 135 A.D.] the Jerusalem church, once Jewish, consisted only of Gentiles.”[Ibid.]
We can see one clear example of the very unChristian hatred for the Jews and everything Jewish (including the “Jewish” name of God, Jehovah) by the 2nd century Gentile “Christians” by examining their treatment of an extremely important custom. Jesus had commanded them to keep an observance memorial of his death like he had done with his disciples at the “Last Supper” on the Passover. The first Christians, then, observed the Memorial of Christ’s death every Nisan 14th evening on the Passover (which most often did not fall on a Saturday or Sunday) by eating the Memorial Bread and drinking the Memorial wine. At some point this observance, commanded by Jesus, was greatly altered. It came to be observed at sunrise, only on a Sunday morning, and deliberately scheduled never to be at the time of the “hated” Jewish Passover. It also was to celebrate the resurrection, not the death as Jesus commansed. (It also later came to be called “Easter” in the northern lands of Christendom - see the HOLIDAYS study)
When did this change come about? Well, we know that at the infamous Nicene Council (325 A.D.) a date was officially assigned (and enforced) “throughout the world” that was intentionally always different from the date of the Jewish Passover. Why? So “that none should hereafter follow the blindness of the Jews” - p. 859, Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 7, 14th ed.
We don’t know exactly when this anti-Jewish reaction against the original Christ-commanded Memorial actually began in earnest (a good guess, however, would be 135 A.D. or shortly thereafter). But we do know that “By 180 A.D. the latter custom [‘Easter’ celebrated on the non-Passover date and always on a Sunday] prevailed generally” and that Pope Victor I (189-198 A.D.) “demanded uniformity and threatened to excommunicate” the minority of churches which still hung onto the original Jewish Passover date. - p. 190, Vol. 6, Encyclopedia International, Grolier, 1966.
A few churches still clung to the Apostolic custom for a while but were treated as heretics by the “orthodox” majority.
“It is true that from the middle of the second century onwards there is a strong reaction towards standardization in both faith and order; diversities in dogmatic formulation, in matters of liturgical practice (such as the observance of Easter), and in the text of Scripture began to be smoothed out.... it is painfully evident that those [Christians] who celebrated Easter on the same day as the Jewish Passover [Quartodecimans] were not motivated by special friendliness towards Judaism [Chadwick then refers to a strong anti-Jewish ‘Easter’ sermon by Quartodeciman Bishop Melito (ca. A.D. 160-170)] .... but there can be little doubt that the Quartodecimans were right in thinking that they had preserved the most ancient and Apostolic custom. They had become heretics simply by being behind the times.” - p. 85, The Early Church, Henry Chadwick, Dorset Press, 1986 printing.
The New Encyclopedia Britannica states that the
“earliest Christians celebrated the Lord’s Passover at the same time as the Jews, during the night of the first (paschal) full Moon of the first month of spring (Nisan 14-15). By the middle of the 2nd century, most churches had transferred this celebration to the Sunday after the Jewish feast.”
From this time - “middle of the 2nd century” (180 A. D., at least) - until the blasphemous Nicene Council (325 A. D.) “Hostility against Jews and Jewish customs led to formal debates [about the date for “Easter”] in councils of the Church.” - How It Started, Garrison, p. 49, Abingdon Press, 1972.
With the example of the extremely important “Easter/Passover” reaction of the Gentile “Christians” in mind we should not be surprised that these same Jewish-hating people changed the Hebrew name of the “Jewish” God during their attempts to “smooth out” “the text of Scripture” during the same time period. In fact, it would be surprising if they hadn’t.
Remember, these “Christians” were mostly Greek (or Latin) speaking Gentiles. It was relatively easy for them to change all the instances of Yahweh and Yah to “Lord” or “God” since those words clearly stood out from the rest of the Greek writing in their Hebrew characters. But what if the hated name had been incorporated into other words and then transliterated into Greek by the original Septuagint translators? Would the name-removing Greek-speaking copyists still recognize it? Apparently not.
We find that when the shortened form of the Divine Name (Jah) was left in Hebrew characters by the original Jewish translators of the Septuagint, the “Christian” copyists always changed it to “Lord.” But when the original Jewish translators had incorporated it with another word or words (as in proper names, e.g., “Elijah” [which means “God is Jehovah” - p. 674, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publ., 1982] or in the phrase “Praise ye Jehovah” [Hallelu JAH]) and transliterated it into Greek characters, it became an acceptable “Greek” word (although one whose meaning they didn’t wholly understand) to the “Christian” copyists, and they didn’t change it (out of ignorance only). This is very obvious in the “Hallelujah” Psalms where, for some reason, the original Septuagint translators combined the two Hebrew words Hallelu (“Praise ye”) and Jah (“Jehovah”) and then put that new word into GREEK characters (which still had the Hebrew pronunciation of “Hallelujah”).
When the 2nd century Jew-despising “Christian” copyists saw “Jah” in Hebrew characters, they always removed it entirely or changed it to “Lord” or “God” - e.g., Ex. 15:2; Ps. 68:4, 18; Is. 26:4. But when they saw the Greek characters of “HalleluJAH” they always left it unchanged.
Everywhere Jah is used by itself in manuscripts copied by "Christian" Greek copyists after mid-second century (except when accompanied by hallel) it has been changed by the “Christian” copyists. However, whenever Jah was joineded to Hallel (“Praise”), the original Septuagint translators incorporated it with Hallel into a single word and then wrote it out in Greek characters (transliterated it) keeping the Hebrew pronunciation of Hallel and JAH !
The trinitarian copyists of the 4th century onward mistakenly left the Divine Name in their copies of Rev. 19.
“[Bar Kochba] ... tortured and killed the Christians who refused to aid him against the Roman army.” [p. 42, Greek Apologists of the Second Century, Robert M. Grant, The Westminster Press, 1988.]
“Another Christian apologist, Justin [Martyr], tells how ... Bar Kochba, the leader of the insurrection, ordered Christians alone to be executed if they would not deny and curse Jesus the Messiah.” [Ibid.]
“After the war [some time after 135 A.D.] the Jerusalem church, once Jewish, consisted only of Gentiles.”[Ibid.]
We can see one clear example of the very unChristian hatred for the Jews and everything Jewish (including the “Jewish” name of God, Jehovah) by the 2nd century Gentile “Christians” by examining their treatment of an extremely important custom. Jesus had commanded them to keep an observance memorial of his death like he had done with his disciples at the “Last Supper” on the Passover. The first Christians, then, observed the Memorial of Christ’s death every Nisan 14th evening on the Passover (which most often did not fall on a Saturday or Sunday) by eating the Memorial Bread and drinking the Memorial wine. At some point this observance, commanded by Jesus, was greatly altered. It came to be observed at sunrise, only on a Sunday morning, and deliberately scheduled never to be at the time of the “hated” Jewish Passover. It also was to celebrate the resurrection, not the death as Jesus commansed. (It also later came to be called “Easter” in the northern lands of Christendom - see the HOLIDAYS study)
When did this change come about? Well, we know that at the infamous Nicene Council (325 A.D.) a date was officially assigned (and enforced) “throughout the world” that was intentionally always different from the date of the Jewish Passover. Why? So “that none should hereafter follow the blindness of the Jews” - p. 859, Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 7, 14th ed.
We don’t know exactly when this anti-Jewish reaction against the original Christ-commanded Memorial actually began in earnest (a good guess, however, would be 135 A.D. or shortly thereafter). But we do know that “By 180 A.D. the latter custom [‘Easter’ celebrated on the non-Passover date and always on a Sunday] prevailed generally” and that Pope Victor I (189-198 A.D.) “demanded uniformity and threatened to excommunicate” the minority of churches which still hung onto the original Jewish Passover date. - p. 190, Vol. 6, Encyclopedia International, Grolier, 1966.
A few churches still clung to the Apostolic custom for a while but were treated as heretics by the “orthodox” majority.
“It is true that from the middle of the second century onwards there is a strong reaction towards standardization in both faith and order; diversities in dogmatic formulation, in matters of liturgical practice (such as the observance of Easter), and in the text of Scripture began to be smoothed out.... it is painfully evident that those [Christians] who celebrated Easter on the same day as the Jewish Passover [Quartodecimans] were not motivated by special friendliness towards Judaism [Chadwick then refers to a strong anti-Jewish ‘Easter’ sermon by Quartodeciman Bishop Melito (ca. A.D. 160-170)] .... but there can be little doubt that the Quartodecimans were right in thinking that they had preserved the most ancient and Apostolic custom. They had become heretics simply by being behind the times.” - p. 85, The Early Church, Henry Chadwick, Dorset Press, 1986 printing.
The New Encyclopedia Britannica states that the
“earliest Christians celebrated the Lord’s Passover at the same time as the Jews, during the night of the first (paschal) full Moon of the first month of spring (Nisan 14-15). By the middle of the 2nd century, most churches had transferred this celebration to the Sunday after the Jewish feast.”
From this time - “middle of the 2nd century” (180 A. D., at least) - until the blasphemous Nicene Council (325 A. D.) “Hostility against Jews and Jewish customs led to formal debates [about the date for “Easter”] in councils of the Church.” - How It Started, Garrison, p. 49, Abingdon Press, 1972.
With the example of the extremely important “Easter/Passover” reaction of the Gentile “Christians” in mind we should not be surprised that these same Jewish-hating people changed the Hebrew name of the “Jewish” God during their attempts to “smooth out” “the text of Scripture” during the same time period. In fact, it would be surprising if they hadn’t.
Remember, these “Christians” were mostly Greek (or Latin) speaking Gentiles. It was relatively easy for them to change all the instances of Yahweh and Yah to “Lord” or “God” since those words clearly stood out from the rest of the Greek writing in their Hebrew characters. But what if the hated name had been incorporated into other words and then transliterated into Greek by the original Septuagint translators? Would the name-removing Greek-speaking copyists still recognize it? Apparently not.
We find that when the shortened form of the Divine Name (Jah) was left in Hebrew characters by the original Jewish translators of the Septuagint, the “Christian” copyists always changed it to “Lord.” But when the original Jewish translators had incorporated it with another word or words (as in proper names, e.g., “Elijah” [which means “God is Jehovah” - p. 674, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publ., 1982] or in the phrase “Praise ye Jehovah” [Hallelu JAH]) and transliterated it into Greek characters, it became an acceptable “Greek” word (although one whose meaning they didn’t wholly understand) to the “Christian” copyists, and they didn’t change it (out of ignorance only). This is very obvious in the “Hallelujah” Psalms where, for some reason, the original Septuagint translators combined the two Hebrew words Hallelu (“Praise ye”) and Jah (“Jehovah”) and then put that new word into GREEK characters (which still had the Hebrew pronunciation of “Hallelujah”).
When the 2nd century Jew-despising “Christian” copyists saw “Jah” in Hebrew characters, they always removed it entirely or changed it to “Lord” or “God” - e.g., Ex. 15:2; Ps. 68:4, 18; Is. 26:4. But when they saw the Greek characters of “HalleluJAH” they always left it unchanged.
Everywhere Jah is used by itself in manuscripts copied by "Christian" Greek copyists after mid-second century (except when accompanied by hallel) it has been changed by the “Christian” copyists. However, whenever Jah was joineded to Hallel (“Praise”), the original Septuagint translators incorporated it with Hallel into a single word and then wrote it out in Greek characters (transliterated it) keeping the Hebrew pronunciation of Hallel and JAH !
The trinitarian copyists of the 4th century onward mistakenly left the Divine Name in their copies of Rev. 19.
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Ceptn Jehovah's of course. Remember Jesus is #2 in position, who sits at Jehovah's right hand. Most likely where the term right hand man originated from.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
ScottA
Well-Known Member
There is an order of things in the breakdown of revelation, but not in the end, which is One as in the beginning.
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