From Marcus Oreillius, post #22:
So, Jesus' admonishment to Nicodemus denying him any particular view is that in order for someone to tell him about Heaven, they would have to go to Heaven AND return. The return must be preceded by the traveling to and it must be in conjunction with the traveling from in order to speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen!
It is a 1-2 process!
Jesus is NOT making a categorical statement that NO ONE has ever gone into Heaven - period. This would deny Revelation 11:4 - "These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." That statement itself is nearly verbatim from Zechariah 4:14.
Enoch and Elijah have already been taken from the earth. They have never died.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
The Two Witnesses are alluded to in Zechariah 4:3 as being with the Lord who supports and supplies the "oil" to the seven Churches. They were with Jesus when He was in Heaven before He came to earth as a man. So while they are in Heaven and not on the earth, because the Bible says they cannot be found.
Neither Enoch nor Elijah have returned - yet! However! They will return! AND they will precede Jesus' parousia on the Day of the Lord.
But they have already been taken up. But again, at the time Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus - about being born again - they were still in Heaven and could not tell Nicodemus about "heavenly things!" Only Jesus, who had come from Heaven could do that - and He tells Nicodemus that He isn't going to tell him about heavenly things if he can't even understand the simpler earthly things of which Jesus speaks!
It's a 1-2 condition for WITNESS concerning being born again! - it is NOT what you are trying to make it sound like: a blanket statement of eternal place.
You, Keras, a writer of commentaries as you say, place such a high regard for them (and they are opinion as well) must then accept a standard in that regard from Jamieson, Fauccet and Brown who write:
13. no man hath ascended, etc.-- There is something paradoxical in this language-- "No one has gone up but He that came down, even He who is at once both up and down."
BOTH conditions MUST LOGICALLY be MET in order for Nicodemus to have someone, anyone, speak of what they know - to provide testimony of what they have seen.
Enoch and Elijah cannot provide that testimony at the time of Jesus' First Advent because they are STILL in Heaven.
You stand refuted upon the context of the passage and the witness of the Bible presented in a logical and reasoned manner.
Here, you've leveraged your "heaven" position on the status of Enoch and Elijah. You've cited only one relevant passage (Heb 11:5), taken from a modern copyrighted version
of the Holy Bible (NASB?) that has corrupted the passage by changing "should" to "would."
If your premise concerning the disposition of Enoch and Elijah is incorrect, then your "heaven" premise is likewise incorrect.
Let's take a thorough scriptural look at Enoch-Elijah re: heaven.
Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in
Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These
all died in faith, not having received the
promises" (
Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.
Based on
Hebrews 11:5,
13 and Jesus’ statement in
John.3:13, "
no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch?
Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?
Let us examine the
bold phrase in
Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and
he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:
Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo,
he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."
Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and
be no more."
The Hebrew for the phrases in
bold are the same Hebrew as
Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:
Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and
one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?
Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one;
and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."
Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because
they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.
Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should
not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died?
Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?
Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall
not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.
So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death."
John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall
never see death" [see also
John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.
Based on
Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men
once to die, but after this the judgment:" and
Hebrews 11:13, "These
all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example,
Romans 5:12; "...so death passed upon
all men, for that all have sinned" and
Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?
But what about his translation in
Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to
Strong's, Thayer's and
Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!
The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in
Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in
Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.
Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (
Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!
At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?
Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."
So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch
WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (
Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in
Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what
Genesis 5:22,
24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but
Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.
The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (
Matthew 17:1-9,
Mark 9:2-10,
Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the
vision to no man" (
Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a
vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (
Acts 10:3,
17,
19;
11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the
future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a
prophetic vision. Here are other examples:
Acts 16:9, "And a
vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the
future.
Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a
vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near
future, no man shall hurt him.
Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at
Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a
prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the
future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.
Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (
Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.
