Heaven
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Stories have themes and movies has plots. But can that be said of the Bible ? Yes. Only by understanding the theme of the Bible will the "pieces of the puzzle" fall into place. Otherwise, a person goes off into "left field" or maybe is not even "in the park".
So what is theme of the Bible ? The sanctification of God's name Jehovah by means of his Kingdom.(Matt 6:9, 10) When Jesus arrived on the earth, he unveiled various aspects of the Kingdom at Matthew 13. In so doing, he used the Greek word sy·ni´e·mi six times that literally means "to mentally put the pieces together".(Matt 13:13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51; the KJV reads "understanding" while another Bible reads "to get the sense of it")
The vast majority are unable to "put the pieces together" regarding the Kingdom, unable to assemble the puzzle.(Matt 13:13) And the sanctification of Jehovah's name by means of a new heavenly governmental arrangement would have been unnecessary had there been no rebellion in the garden of Eden.
But this all changed upon there being a mutiny some 6,000 years ago that challenged Jehovah's authority and raised the issue of God's right to rule over his creation posed by the "original serpent".(Gen 3:1-6) So God began to prepare for an extension of his universal government, that Jesus called God's heavenly Kingdom.
It is spoken of as "out of a mountain (God's universal sovereignty) a stone (God's heavenly Kingdom) was cut not by hands."(Dan 2:45 as well as verse 34; see Matt 21:42, 43, whereby Jesus called "the stone" the Kingdom of God, with him as the principal one)
God first addressed this need at Genesis 3:15, saying: "And I will put enmity (or hatred) between you (the "original serpent", Satan, Rev 12:9) and the woman (neither Eve nor Mary, but the celestial body of loyal spirit "sons of God", see Rev 12:1) and between your offspring (those on the earth who follow Satan, see John 8:44) and her offspring (those on the earth who "observe the commandments of God", Rev 12:17). He (Jesus Christ as the principal offspring of the "woman") will crush your head (Rev 20:10), and you will strike him in the heel (when Jesus was put to death on the torture stake, Phil 2:8, but was not permanent, Acts 2:24).”
God's original purpose of Adam and Eve and their offspring living on a paradise earth was now directly impacted. Did God change his mind regarding the earth because of insubordination on their part ? No.(see Isa 55:10, 11) He purposed for righteous mankind to live on a paradise earth and in order to bring this to reality, he created a heavenly government made up of individuals taken from the earth.
Isaiah 45 says of God's original purpose: "For this is what Jehovah says, the Creator of the heavens, the true God, the One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited."(Isa 45:18)
Of the Kingdom that will bring to reality the earth becoming a paradise for "meek" ones (Matt 5:5), Revelation 5 says of those selected from the earth: "And they (the "24 elders") sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”(Rev 5:9, 10; see also Rev 1:6 whereby the apostle John included himself as part of the Kingdom)
Thus, the "Kingdom of the heavens" is built with imperfect but loyal individuals from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation" on earth, with Jesus Christ as only the perfect and primary one initially selected, who are to " rule as kings over the earth (not "on the earth", KJV)." These have proven "worthy" (2 Thess 1:5) by being "no part of the world".(John 15:19)
This heavenly government though has a limited number who are "chosen" ("elect", KJV) as its members, to serve as "kings and priests".(Rev 1:6, KJV) The number is seen at Revelation 7 and 14 as 144,000 selected from the earth (Rev 7:4; 14:1, 4) Jesus called them "a little flock" at Luke 12:32, whom "your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."
Jesus also called the revealing of the Kingdom "a sacred secret" or "mystery". And he established that it is only his genuine disciples that are able to unlock its "mysteries" or sacred secrets".(Matt 13:11) All others are locked out from "mentally putting the pieces together."(the apostle Paul said that "the revelation of the sacred secret (of the Kingdom)....has been kept in silence for long-lasting times but has been made (now) manifest", Rom 16:25, 26)
Thence, since the rebellion in the garden of Eden, Jehovah God prepared and has now made operational the Kingdom, a heavenly government with 144,001 ones as its members. When the earth is completed as a paradise, restored to its original pristine beauty, and its "meek" inhabitants have been fully tested at the end of Jesus millennial reign (Rev 20:7-10), then God's original purpose for the earth will have been fulfilled.
Jesus will then ' hand over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' in opposition to Jehovah.(1 Cor 15:24) The Kingdom will have served its purpose to unify the universe forever, to God's glory.(see Eph 1:9, 10, whereby Paul speaks of an "administration" (Greek oikonomia, that is not God's Kingdom, but a way of administering it) that will "gather (or unify) all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.")
So what is theme of the Bible ? The sanctification of God's name Jehovah by means of his Kingdom.(Matt 6:9, 10) When Jesus arrived on the earth, he unveiled various aspects of the Kingdom at Matthew 13. In so doing, he used the Greek word sy·ni´e·mi six times that literally means "to mentally put the pieces together".(Matt 13:13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51; the KJV reads "understanding" while another Bible reads "to get the sense of it")
The vast majority are unable to "put the pieces together" regarding the Kingdom, unable to assemble the puzzle.(Matt 13:13) And the sanctification of Jehovah's name by means of a new heavenly governmental arrangement would have been unnecessary had there been no rebellion in the garden of Eden.
But this all changed upon there being a mutiny some 6,000 years ago that challenged Jehovah's authority and raised the issue of God's right to rule over his creation posed by the "original serpent".(Gen 3:1-6) So God began to prepare for an extension of his universal government, that Jesus called God's heavenly Kingdom.
It is spoken of as "out of a mountain (God's universal sovereignty) a stone (God's heavenly Kingdom) was cut not by hands."(Dan 2:45 as well as verse 34; see Matt 21:42, 43, whereby Jesus called "the stone" the Kingdom of God, with him as the principal one)
God first addressed this need at Genesis 3:15, saying: "And I will put enmity (or hatred) between you (the "original serpent", Satan, Rev 12:9) and the woman (neither Eve nor Mary, but the celestial body of loyal spirit "sons of God", see Rev 12:1) and between your offspring (those on the earth who follow Satan, see John 8:44) and her offspring (those on the earth who "observe the commandments of God", Rev 12:17). He (Jesus Christ as the principal offspring of the "woman") will crush your head (Rev 20:10), and you will strike him in the heel (when Jesus was put to death on the torture stake, Phil 2:8, but was not permanent, Acts 2:24).”
God's original purpose of Adam and Eve and their offspring living on a paradise earth was now directly impacted. Did God change his mind regarding the earth because of insubordination on their part ? No.(see Isa 55:10, 11) He purposed for righteous mankind to live on a paradise earth and in order to bring this to reality, he created a heavenly government made up of individuals taken from the earth.
Isaiah 45 says of God's original purpose: "For this is what Jehovah says, the Creator of the heavens, the true God, the One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited."(Isa 45:18)
Of the Kingdom that will bring to reality the earth becoming a paradise for "meek" ones (Matt 5:5), Revelation 5 says of those selected from the earth: "And they (the "24 elders") sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”(Rev 5:9, 10; see also Rev 1:6 whereby the apostle John included himself as part of the Kingdom)
Thus, the "Kingdom of the heavens" is built with imperfect but loyal individuals from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation" on earth, with Jesus Christ as only the perfect and primary one initially selected, who are to " rule as kings over the earth (not "on the earth", KJV)." These have proven "worthy" (2 Thess 1:5) by being "no part of the world".(John 15:19)
This heavenly government though has a limited number who are "chosen" ("elect", KJV) as its members, to serve as "kings and priests".(Rev 1:6, KJV) The number is seen at Revelation 7 and 14 as 144,000 selected from the earth (Rev 7:4; 14:1, 4) Jesus called them "a little flock" at Luke 12:32, whom "your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."
Jesus also called the revealing of the Kingdom "a sacred secret" or "mystery". And he established that it is only his genuine disciples that are able to unlock its "mysteries" or sacred secrets".(Matt 13:11) All others are locked out from "mentally putting the pieces together."(the apostle Paul said that "the revelation of the sacred secret (of the Kingdom)....has been kept in silence for long-lasting times but has been made (now) manifest", Rom 16:25, 26)
Thence, since the rebellion in the garden of Eden, Jehovah God prepared and has now made operational the Kingdom, a heavenly government with 144,001 ones as its members. When the earth is completed as a paradise, restored to its original pristine beauty, and its "meek" inhabitants have been fully tested at the end of Jesus millennial reign (Rev 20:7-10), then God's original purpose for the earth will have been fulfilled.
Jesus will then ' hand over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' in opposition to Jehovah.(1 Cor 15:24) The Kingdom will have served its purpose to unify the universe forever, to God's glory.(see Eph 1:9, 10, whereby Paul speaks of an "administration" (Greek oikonomia, that is not God's Kingdom, but a way of administering it) that will "gather (or unify) all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.")
Hi Guestman, I was mostly agreeing with you until you got to this part: "his heavenly government though has a limited number who are "chosen" ("elect", KJV) as its members, to serve as "kings and priests".(Rev 1:6, KJV) The number is seen at Revelation 7 and 14 as 144,000 selected from the earth (Rev 7:4; 14:1, 4) Jesus called them "a little flock" at Luke 12:32, whom "your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom."
Jesus also called the revealing of the Kingdom "a sacred secret" or "mystery". And he established that it is only his genuine disciples that are able to unlock its "mysteries" or sacred secrets".(Matt 13:11) All others are locked out from "mentally putting the pieces together."(the apostle Paul said that "the revelation of the sacred secret (of the Kingdom)....has been kept in silence for long-lasting times but has been made (now) manifest", Rom 16:25, 26)
Thence, since the rebellion in the garden of Eden, Jehovah God prepared and has now made operational the Kingdom, a heavenly government with 144,001 ones as its members.
Then I realized that this is, imo, errant JW philosophy but keep studying and reading but listen to the Holy Spirit and not false teachers or anyone who preaches something contrary to the word of God.
Jesus also called the revealing of the Kingdom "a sacred secret" or "mystery". And he established that it is only his genuine disciples that are able to unlock its "mysteries" or sacred secrets".(Matt 13:11) All others are locked out from "mentally putting the pieces together."(the apostle Paul said that "the revelation of the sacred secret (of the Kingdom)....has been kept in silence for long-lasting times but has been made (now) manifest", Rom 16:25, 26)
Thence, since the rebellion in the garden of Eden, Jehovah God prepared and has now made operational the Kingdom, a heavenly government with 144,001 ones as its members.
Then I realized that this is, imo, errant JW philosophy but keep studying and reading but listen to the Holy Spirit and not false teachers or anyone who preaches something contrary to the word of God.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, keras.
Kata Iooanneen 3:13
13 Kai oudeis anabebeeken eis ton ouranon ei mee ho ek tou ouranou katabas, ho Huios tou anthroopou.
The Greek New Testament (UBS)
According-to John 3:13
13 And no-one has-ascended into the sky, if not the-(One-who) came-down out-from the sky, the Son of man.
Straight word-for-word translation
Thus, Yeshua` is merely saying that no one has gone up into the sky, but the One - the Son of man - who came down out of the blue! He was predicting His own ascension!
On the other hand, I am NOT disagreeing with you. If one can’t get into the sky, how can one get into some place that’s supposed to be far beyond the sky?
Today, his statement would have to be qualified because we have such vehicles as planes, helicopters, and rockets. We literally DO get into the sky and even beyond to some degree, but during Yeshua`s first advent, such vehicles of flight were not in use.
The truth is, however, that there is NO SUCH PLACE as a “heaven” beyond the "heaven of stars!” Whoever added the words “God’s abode” has done a GREAT disservice to Christianity! That is NOT what the words “third heaven” are talking about! The “third heaven,” like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:3-13, is the “new heavens” around the “new earth” after the Fire! It is NOT a SPATIAL count of three “heavens”; it’s a CHRONOLOGICAL count of three “heavens!” The atmosphere before the Flood was the “first heaven”; the atmosphere now between the Flood and the Fire is the “second heaven”; and, the atmosphere after the Fire will be the “third heaven."
It’s really quite simple, but one has to see it for himself to believe it. The Greek word “ouranos” means the “sky,” talking about the earth’s “ATMOSPHERE!” That’s the Greek word often translated as “heaven,” and it’s the word used in John 3:13:keras said:
Kata Iooanneen 3:13
13 Kai oudeis anabebeeken eis ton ouranon ei mee ho ek tou ouranou katabas, ho Huios tou anthroopou.
The Greek New Testament (UBS)
According-to John 3:13
13 And no-one has-ascended into the sky, if not the-(One-who) came-down out-from the sky, the Son of man.
Straight word-for-word translation
Thus, Yeshua` is merely saying that no one has gone up into the sky, but the One - the Son of man - who came down out of the blue! He was predicting His own ascension!
On the other hand, I am NOT disagreeing with you. If one can’t get into the sky, how can one get into some place that’s supposed to be far beyond the sky?
Today, his statement would have to be qualified because we have such vehicles as planes, helicopters, and rockets. We literally DO get into the sky and even beyond to some degree, but during Yeshua`s first advent, such vehicles of flight were not in use.
The truth is, however, that there is NO SUCH PLACE as a “heaven” beyond the "heaven of stars!” Whoever added the words “God’s abode” has done a GREAT disservice to Christianity! That is NOT what the words “third heaven” are talking about! The “third heaven,” like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:3-13, is the “new heavens” around the “new earth” after the Fire! It is NOT a SPATIAL count of three “heavens”; it’s a CHRONOLOGICAL count of three “heavens!” The atmosphere before the Flood was the “first heaven”; the atmosphere now between the Flood and the Fire is the “second heaven”; and, the atmosphere after the Fire will be the “third heaven."
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Retro, Strongs Greek dict:
Word 3770 - ouranios; celestial, belonging to or coming from the sky, heavenly.
Word 3772 - ouranos; same root as 3770, but by extension - heaven, as the abode of God. happiness, power, eternity, specially referring to the Gospel, Christianity.
Jesus is not talking about the sky, our atmosphere in John 3:13. The word used is 'ouranos', NOT 'ouranios'. He makes a plain, irrefutable statement that totally blows away the pretentious notion of any human being 'raptured' to the abode of God.
As I have said before, and I repeat; we are humans, we are earth beings, we have work to do here. We all must find out what our Maker would have us do and get on with it, or be judged unfaithful and unworthy. The 'rapture' is just another straight out satanic deception, that diverts our attention from our tasks on earth.
Word 3770 - ouranios; celestial, belonging to or coming from the sky, heavenly.
Word 3772 - ouranos; same root as 3770, but by extension - heaven, as the abode of God. happiness, power, eternity, specially referring to the Gospel, Christianity.
Jesus is not talking about the sky, our atmosphere in John 3:13. The word used is 'ouranos', NOT 'ouranios'. He makes a plain, irrefutable statement that totally blows away the pretentious notion of any human being 'raptured' to the abode of God.
As I have said before, and I repeat; we are humans, we are earth beings, we have work to do here. We all must find out what our Maker would have us do and get on with it, or be judged unfaithful and unworthy. The 'rapture' is just another straight out satanic deception, that diverts our attention from our tasks on earth.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
My heart goes out to all who have been taught false beliefs. When pastors or anyone who you trust to teach the truth has deceived you with theories, ideas and doctrines that do not have Biblical support, then it becomes very difficult for anyone to obtain the truth.
We have discussed this issue of the rapture for some time now, all those who promote a removal of Christians to heaven before the wrath of God happens, have been totally unable to provide scriptural support for their stance. On the other hand I have given scriptures that say the Lord will gather His people and settle them into all of the holy Land, after His Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6, then Isaiah 66:7-21 will happen. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 30&31 are good prophesies about this.
We are told; 1 Cor. 3:12-15, that there will be a judgement of fire for everyone and those who have no good works to show for their time, but are true believers, will escape with their life. I pray for all those true Christians who have been misled, for protection during this terrible Day of wrath and for their transport to the holy Land, for a life there as good as their expectations of heaven and that they will be a part of the vast throng who will greet the returning Jesus with. 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord'.
We have discussed this issue of the rapture for some time now, all those who promote a removal of Christians to heaven before the wrath of God happens, have been totally unable to provide scriptural support for their stance. On the other hand I have given scriptures that say the Lord will gather His people and settle them into all of the holy Land, after His Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6, then Isaiah 66:7-21 will happen. Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 30&31 are good prophesies about this.
We are told; 1 Cor. 3:12-15, that there will be a judgement of fire for everyone and those who have no good works to show for their time, but are true believers, will escape with their life. I pray for all those true Christians who have been misled, for protection during this terrible Day of wrath and for their transport to the holy Land, for a life there as good as their expectations of heaven and that they will be a part of the vast throng who will greet the returning Jesus with. 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord'.
Hi Keras, I believe there is way more scriptural validity to the rapture theory than there is to your listed scriptures concerning prophecies relating to those of physical Jewish descent. Once one realizes the temporary separation between the two, with different destinies for some that ultimately ends in unity, one can properly divide the word of truth.
Let's take a look at your list.
Is. 63:1-6 - This affirms the reality of God's wrath but has nothing apart from what some rapturists believe.
Is. 66:7-21 - This has echoes of Rev. 12 and Rev. 22 but it is speaking of the LIVING people of the millennium NOT the resurrected. The new heavens and new earth are post-millennial, not pre for two main reasons. One, I can't imagine God allowing Satan into His new heavens and earth to test the people after his thousand year imprisonment and the sequential aspect of Revelations in general.
Ez. 36 - Once again this is concerning physical Israel, NOT the church or the resurrected. This will begin with the 144,000 plus those who see the a/c for who he really is and turn to the Lord for salvation as also prophecied in Zechariah.
Jer. 30 & 31 - The time of Jacob's trouble is upon modern day Israel. The church has the great trib. They are similar but not the same. Both chapters are about physical Israel, which IS NOT the church. The church, because of Israel's rejection, is able to partake of the new covenant but we are an addition, adopted, not transformed into physical Israel. Yes, we are a type of spiritual Israel, but only because of our belief. The church does not replace Israel. Jer. 31:34 is the only part of the new covenant unfulfilled and it will be fulfilled by the physical nation of Israel that will be counted as worthy because of their acceptance of Christ as Messiah.
All I can say is that once you get your identities right, things might make more sense to you.
Let's take a look at your list.
Is. 63:1-6 - This affirms the reality of God's wrath but has nothing apart from what some rapturists believe.
Is. 66:7-21 - This has echoes of Rev. 12 and Rev. 22 but it is speaking of the LIVING people of the millennium NOT the resurrected. The new heavens and new earth are post-millennial, not pre for two main reasons. One, I can't imagine God allowing Satan into His new heavens and earth to test the people after his thousand year imprisonment and the sequential aspect of Revelations in general.
Ez. 36 - Once again this is concerning physical Israel, NOT the church or the resurrected. This will begin with the 144,000 plus those who see the a/c for who he really is and turn to the Lord for salvation as also prophecied in Zechariah.
Jer. 30 & 31 - The time of Jacob's trouble is upon modern day Israel. The church has the great trib. They are similar but not the same. Both chapters are about physical Israel, which IS NOT the church. The church, because of Israel's rejection, is able to partake of the new covenant but we are an addition, adopted, not transformed into physical Israel. Yes, we are a type of spiritual Israel, but only because of our belief. The church does not replace Israel. Jer. 31:34 is the only part of the new covenant unfulfilled and it will be fulfilled by the physical nation of Israel that will be counted as worthy because of their acceptance of Christ as Messiah.
All I can say is that once you get your identities right, things might make more sense to you.
It took awhile to come out, but we now have the position statement above, which exemplifies the major problem inherent with the heresy that is “rapture theory” (and its integration with the false doctrine of pre-wrath).
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
Due to the religious conditioning which has come to dominate most of the denominations and Christian fellowships over the last century, most believers see themselves as members of the so-called “church,” as opposed to the unique title Paul used to describe the saved in the following passage:
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision [being an Israelite] availeth anything, nor uncircumcision [being a Gentile], but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).
To phrase this in the simplest language possible, the Apostle Paul is saying being Jewish is worth nothing, and being Gentile is worth nothing, because whatever you were before, in Christ you are now “a new creature,” and this new body of believers is called “the Israel of God.”
To put it bluntly, the Christians are the only saved Israel seen in the New Testament.
The transition concludes when Christ-rejecting physical Israel, joins with the Christ-rejecting physical Gentiles, to attack the single Spiritual entity that was born again as Spiritual Israel.
“But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren. And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them they were ware of it, and fled….” (Acts 14:2,5,6).
The reconfiguration of Israel was complete, for what could be called Spiritual Israel, or Born Again Israel, comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles, was being attacked by physical Jews and physical Gentiles, who had joined together to oppose the Gospel.
At this point, it’s useful to remember that the New Testament cogently tells us that there is no difference between physical Jews or physical Gentiles in Christ:
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (II Corinthians 5:17).
This means that if any man is not in Christ, he is what he was – an unsaved Jew or an unsaved Gentile. We note that the two components of Anti-Israel, comprised of Christ-rejecting Jews and unregenerate Gentiles, form one body – those who are not saved. On the opposite side of the spectrum, we see the two components of “the Israel of God,” comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles who now form “a new creature” -- those who are saved.
Because most Christians have been taught they have become members of the so-called “church” (a word that simply means an assembly), the Roman Catholic concept of the “church” replacing Israel came about. The Rapture Cult, realizing the Old Testament promises to Israel must be fulfilled in Israel, then came up with the idea of rotating salvation (the “church” is saved, gets raptured, and then Israel gets redeemed), but both systems are fatally flawed.
No matter how you slice it, the only saved entity in Scripture is Israel, and the Apostle Paul clearly articulated the body of Christian believers is one body, comprised of former Jews and former Gentiles, who have been born again as a new creation – The Israel Of God.
Continuing, the $64,000 question that we must correctly answer is, “What is my identity in Christ?”
Based on the prophetic texts found in Obadiah, the LORD reproaches the identity seen in the Old Testament as Edom. This is the mysterious name which stands in the way of those who were escaping the wrath of God, by moving through the "crossway" – and it was the wicked Spiritual entity identified as Edom, which sought to stop those seeking salvation at Calvary:
"Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape…" (Obadiah 1:14).
Edom is a physical identity under the Old Covenant, and a Spiritual identity under the New Covenant.
Unfortunately, vast numbers of believers have been taught the "other Gospel" of the end times – a system that reverses the true identities found in Bible prophecy -- to the detriment of the millions who have fallen under the strong delusion. At this late date in the prophetic calendar, it is tragic that so many Christians are experiencing a prophetic reiteration of the prophecy directed to the Judaeans by the Apostle Paul, in which he also anticipated the state of the believers in Christ at the end of the age:
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge… my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, because thou hast rejected knowledge" (Romans 10:2, Hosea 4:6).
Obviously, both verses cited above turn on the issue of identity – i.e. just who is in view that is to be turned away, because they have rejected knowledge. It is self evident that both verses are addressed to "Israel," yet it is inconsistent to apply the appellation of "my people" to physical Israelites under the New Covenant.
Few stop to realize that very same prophet Hosea, who hosted the LORD's Spiritual rejection of "his people" because they rejected his knowledge, also said that God would draw to himself those who were not his people:
"…and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people: and they shall say, Thou art my God" (Hosea 2:23).
Since Hosea is an Old Testament era prophet, and the LORD said through him that he would call those who were "not my people," it is exceedingly clear the "not my people" could not have been referencing the physical children of Israel. In fact, the Apostle Paul, back in the New Testament, quotes this very verse as he tells the Roman Christians that they have now become God's people:
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles…As he saith also in [H]osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved" (Romans 9:25).
Most believers fail to see the Spiritual depth of terms such as "my people," or even the "chosen," or the "elect" of God; and this is largely because of a wholesale orientation to one primary, albeit false, worldview. But what if that view is indeed in error, and vast numbers of seemingly devout believers have inadvertently embraced the "other Jesus?" (Galatians 1:8)
For example, to the disciples, Jesus very unambiguously stated that they were now the chosen people:
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you" (John 15:16).
Even the Apostle Peter, clearly writing to the Christians, confirms that we are the "chosen" people:
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people…" (I Peter 2:9).
The Apostle Paul, in writing to the Romans, clearly distinguishes between the physical Jews, and the believers in Christ, whom he refers to as the "elect" of God:
"Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it…." (Romans 11:7).
This is only the tip of the textual iceberg, in that there are dozens of verses, plainly applied to the Christians, in which the LORD refers to us as "my people" – and yet whenever we see such a phrase, we irrationally assign that sacred role to the physical family of Jacob.
Even worse, when God says he will call his people out of a group who were previously known as not my people, he also prophetically addresses those who were his people, but are now no more his people:
"I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel: but I will utterly take them away….for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:6, 10).
In spite of starkly unpleasant statements like the above, we've all been taught to cite verses supporting the supposed inability of God to change course concerning Israel, even as we routinely ignore verses which speak of such things. For instance, at the provocation in the wilderness, God says that Israel will know his breach of covenant:
"After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise" (Numbers 14:34).
God clearly tells us the covenant with the family of Israel was not broken by him, for they are the ones who broke the covenant:
"…I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:32).
Through the prophets Ezekiel and Amos, God even says there is an end to his patience with Israel's backsliding; but he will give them one final opportunity to be redeemed:
"Alas, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel: An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. An end is come, the end is come…." (Ezekiel 7:2, 6).
"The end is come upon my people of Israel: I will not again pass by them any more" (Amos 8:2).
Ultimately, JESUS CHRIST himself pointedly tells the Jews their standing has been revoked, as God has determined to call those who were not his people, into the ranks of the chosen:
"Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).
The truth is a hard saying, but it is still the truth. When God promised to "remember" Israel, thus fulfilling his promise that Israel's "seed" would be multiplied "as the stars of heaven" (Genesis 26:4), through those same prophets he said he would accomplish this by transforming Israel into a spiritual house:
"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel…I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33).
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5).
The truth is staring us right in the face, but most cannot see it, because blindness has happened to the last generation of Spiritual Israelites:
"…blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in…This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Romans 11:25, Ephesians 4:17,18).
This Spiritual blindness affects both Gentiles and Jews, who are not in Christ; but the Gentiles and the Jews who have joined into one Spiritual body in Christ, are the true Remnant of Israel, and they are that which the Apostle Paul calls the Israel of God:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
Thus, the Christians are the Spiritual Jews, which relegates the physical Jews to the role of Spiritual Gentiles – who are identified in Obadiah as associated with the identity therein labeled as Edom:
"Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape…" (Obadiah 1:14).
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
I realized the common denominator in every one of the rapidly expanding tiers of Post-Tribulationism (e. g. pre-wrath), is the fundamental error that they still see Israel as the chosen people based on flesh and blood:
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (I Corinthians 15:5).
This means that there is another entire strata of deception positioned within the ranks of those who are willing to break with the false tradition of Pre-Trib. In essence, most of the Post-Tribulationists have simply pushed their “Rapture” of the “Church” deeper and deeper into the tribulation – not realizing the primary error of the Rapture Cult actually has very little to do with timing – and everything to do with the believer’s true identity.
An enormous problem is a rudimentary misunderstanding of the Gospel itself. Jesus Christ repeatedly stated he came to save Israel – even as other verses state God loved the entire world enough to send his Son to redeem all who will respond to his call:
“I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel…the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world” (I John 4:14).
When we say that “Israel” rejected Christ, but those who did respond became members of the so called “Church” (a word associated with a generic group of people), we make Christ’s efforts to save Israel either a failure, or at the very least, an unfulfilled promise. The truth is, as Zecharias the father of John the Baptist proclaimed, Christ redeemed Israel in every way he promised:
“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people” (Luke 1:68).
As Jesus prayed the Father, looking throughout eternity, he flatly stated he had completed the work he was given, and had lost none of those the Father gave him:
“That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none” (John 18:9).
There is no “Church” apart from Israel, and there never was. There is no “Israel” apart from Christ, and there never was.
After the cross, there is no physical Jew, and there is no physical Gentile – as EVERYTHING is delineated on a Spiritual plane. There are now Spiritual Jews (the same thing as a Spiritual Israelite), and there are Spiritual Gentiles – thus, all who are truly in Christ, who stand completely in him, with no reliance upon relationships based on flesh and blood, are the “All Israel” which is saved (Romans 11:26).
Those who claim the Jews are chosen in their flesh (whether they see themselves as members of the “Church,” or whether they profess themselves to be “Jews”) manifest the Spirit of Antichrist, for the Scriptures repeatedly show that God prophesied He was going to translate Israel into a Spiritual house (I Peter 2:5).
So called “Hebrew Roots” believers universally claim the Jews are chosen regardless of their belief (or lack thereof) in Christ – an abomination of the first magnitude. Every Rapturist (regardless of Pre-Trib or Post-Trib orientation) separates Israel from the fictional “Church” – so they are all preaching another Gospel.
When Jesus told the Disciples” I have chosen you” (John 15:19), he defined being “chosen” as one who is Spiritually regenerated in him – regardless of their physical lineage. Thus, the Post-Tribulationists are teaching the same apostasy as the Pre-Tribulationists when they profess Israel is still chosen on a physical basis – but God is not mocked, for he has revealed the truth to those he has chosen:
“But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (II Thessalonians 2:3).
Ironically, the same Spiritural Stronghold which has been repeatedly detected in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Cult also exists in the Post-Tribulationists who fail to hear the voice of the LORD in this matter – and it is directly related to the Strong Delusion which everyone has heard so much about.
“But ye brethren are not in darkness…Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness…For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God” (I Thessalonians 5:4,5; Galatians 6:16).
Perhaps a thorough scriptural refutation of the doctrine of pre-wrath is the next order.
I-d-e-n-t-i-t-y.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
We have extensively discussed the question of 'who is Israel?
The O.T. talks about the restoration of all Israel, they will go back to live in the holy Land and they will finally be the people God intended them to be. But the N.T. tells us that: if we belong to Christ we are the issue of Abraham and heirs by virtue of the promise. Galatians 3:29 Therefore Christians ARE Israelites.
You believe that there is more scriptural validity in a rapture? Where is that proof? I post whole chapters of proof about the wonderful blessings that God will bestow upon His people, as they fulfil their destiny in the holy Land.
The belief in a rapture is wrong, it is a deception that leads to a whole raft of misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture. For example you say the 144,000 'turn to the Lord for salvation'. What? Better read Rev. 7 & 14 again! They are selected from the 'vast throng' of believers gathered in Jerusalem, deemed by God to be 'the issue of Abraham', and designated into the various tribes. They go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19
All that you say, Trekson in #48, is simply an attempt to maintain your belief of an escape from this world, that just ain't going to happen no matter how much you wish it.
Leonard Ravenhill said: Todays Church wants to be raptured from responsibility.
The O.T. talks about the restoration of all Israel, they will go back to live in the holy Land and they will finally be the people God intended them to be. But the N.T. tells us that: if we belong to Christ we are the issue of Abraham and heirs by virtue of the promise. Galatians 3:29 Therefore Christians ARE Israelites.
You believe that there is more scriptural validity in a rapture? Where is that proof? I post whole chapters of proof about the wonderful blessings that God will bestow upon His people, as they fulfil their destiny in the holy Land.
The belief in a rapture is wrong, it is a deception that leads to a whole raft of misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture. For example you say the 144,000 'turn to the Lord for salvation'. What? Better read Rev. 7 & 14 again! They are selected from the 'vast throng' of believers gathered in Jerusalem, deemed by God to be 'the issue of Abraham', and designated into the various tribes. They go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19
All that you say, Trekson in #48, is simply an attempt to maintain your belief of an escape from this world, that just ain't going to happen no matter how much you wish it.
Leonard Ravenhill said: Todays Church wants to be raptured from responsibility.
Hi S4C, Finally, a well thought out and well written post. Due to it's length, I hope to have my response ready sometime before this week-end but believe it or not we agree (and I've stated such in various posts) in more areas than we disagree. There are a couple of areas where you make faulty assumptions about my pov but that will be dealt with in my response. I'm looking forward to diving in.
Hi Keras, Your words: "They are selected from the 'vast throng' of believers gathered in Jerusalem, deemed by God to be 'the issue of Abraham', and designated into the various tribes. They go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus."
LOL, they aren't "designated into", they are physically from those tribes mentioned and nowhere in scripture does it say the 144,000 "witness" before the millennium. If they are part of Is. 66:19 it is after the beginning of the millennium, not before.
Hi Keras, Your words: "They are selected from the 'vast throng' of believers gathered in Jerusalem, deemed by God to be 'the issue of Abraham', and designated into the various tribes. They go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus."
LOL, they aren't "designated into", they are physically from those tribes mentioned and nowhere in scripture does it say the 144,000 "witness" before the millennium. If they are part of Is. 66:19 it is after the beginning of the millennium, not before.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Trekson, if the vast throng that gather in Jerusalem soon after the Sixth seal, [as is the sequence of Revelation] are true Christians from every tribe, race and language, but are deemed to be the issue of Abraham, then in order to select the 144,000 from them, the Lord must assign them into the 12 Israelite tribes.
Remember that the Jews are just the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, with possibly half of Levi. Do not think they have rejoined already, as Ezekiel 37 still awaits fulfilment.
Your incorrect beliefs of end times leads you to think that prophesies like Isaiah 66:19 happen after the Return. Note in Isaiah 66:15-16 how the Lord will come in fire. Is this referring to the Return? And do those survivors of that fire proclaim His glory to the nations that have never yet heard of Me after the Return- when all the world will see Him? Isaiah 49:6
Rev 14:6-7 says it is an angel who proclaims the Gospel, but this is an obvious allegory, proved by Isa 66:19. John was seeing visions and God used an angel to show how those He had chosen in the previous verses would go out to all the world, in the same manner as Jesus sent the 72 out. Luke 10:1-11
Remember that the Jews are just the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, with possibly half of Levi. Do not think they have rejoined already, as Ezekiel 37 still awaits fulfilment.
Your incorrect beliefs of end times leads you to think that prophesies like Isaiah 66:19 happen after the Return. Note in Isaiah 66:15-16 how the Lord will come in fire. Is this referring to the Return? And do those survivors of that fire proclaim His glory to the nations that have never yet heard of Me after the Return- when all the world will see Him? Isaiah 49:6
Rev 14:6-7 says it is an angel who proclaims the Gospel, but this is an obvious allegory, proved by Isa 66:19. John was seeing visions and God used an angel to show how those He had chosen in the previous verses would go out to all the world, in the same manner as Jesus sent the 72 out. Luke 10:1-11
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, keras.
NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:
KJV - heavenly.
NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky:
KJV - from heaven.
NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by EXTENSION heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Do you understand now? Learn how to read Strong’s definitions at the very least!
keras said:
You’ve somehow misunderstood what I was saying. I do NOT believe in a “rapture” to “heaven.” It’s simple: THERE IS NO “HEAVEN" TO WHICH ONE CAN GO (regardless Strong’s definitions)! And, you are WRONG about “Jesus ... not talking about the sky, our atmosphere, in John 3:13.” Furthermore, the words and their containing phrases in John 3:13 are “eis ton ouranon” and “ek tou ouranou.” And, while both of these forms are from the word “ouranos,” you have FAILED to understand even STRONG’S definitions:keras said:
NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:
KJV - heavenly.
NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky:
KJV - from heaven.
NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by EXTENSION heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Do you understand now? Learn how to read Strong’s definitions at the very least!
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
It's amazing. It's as if one person is saying 3 out of 5 support something and the other one says, 'no, it's 60% - don't you understand percentages?'
The concept of Heaven being "above" is about as good a definition for what the Greek could convey for an idea - but essentially, everyone is referencing a place never seen; they are not talking about outer space. They are talking about the abode of God, a place of eternal bliss. And across cultural lines, people refer to Heaven (somewhere out there; not on this earth) as a place where they hope to go when they die.
Yet on the other hand, we can see that another's incorrect beliefs of end times leads him to think that prophesies like Isaiah 66:19 happen at the Return instead of the Millennium. It's easy to think in human terms that this earth is all we have, and if you mix up prophecy for natural Israel who reject Jesus today yet will be saved for the Church - well you might just think that something written in Scripture is some weird satanic deception.
The concept of Heaven being "above" is about as good a definition for what the Greek could convey for an idea - but essentially, everyone is referencing a place never seen; they are not talking about outer space. They are talking about the abode of God, a place of eternal bliss. And across cultural lines, people refer to Heaven (somewhere out there; not on this earth) as a place where they hope to go when they die.
Yet on the other hand, we can see that another's incorrect beliefs of end times leads him to think that prophesies like Isaiah 66:19 happen at the Return instead of the Millennium. It's easy to think in human terms that this earth is all we have, and if you mix up prophecy for natural Israel who reject Jesus today yet will be saved for the Church - well you might just think that something written in Scripture is some weird satanic deception.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Retro, glad to know you do not believe in a rapture. As for what John was referring to in John 3:13, it IS God's dwelling place, wherever that may be.
Marcus has it right, in his second paragraph.
Isaiah 66:19 happens BEFORE the Return and the Millennium. It must, because why would those marked with God's sign go out to the nations to proclaim His glory, after He has come in glory, for all to see?
Isaiah 66:20-21 goes on to say how the Israelites, [true Christians] be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in Gentiles, will travel to and live in the holy Land. Some will become Priests in the new Temple and as we see in Ezekiel 43:2, the glory of God will be in the Temple as it was in Solomon's day.
Trekson, Isaiah 66:21 proves the fact that the Lord will designate His people into the various tribes.
Marcus has it right, in his second paragraph.
Isaiah 66:19 happens BEFORE the Return and the Millennium. It must, because why would those marked with God's sign go out to the nations to proclaim His glory, after He has come in glory, for all to see?
Isaiah 66:20-21 goes on to say how the Israelites, [true Christians] be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in Gentiles, will travel to and live in the holy Land. Some will become Priests in the new Temple and as we see in Ezekiel 43:2, the glory of God will be in the Temple as it was in Solomon's day.
Trekson, Isaiah 66:21 proves the fact that the Lord will designate His people into the various tribes.
Hi Keras, Your words: “… if the vast throng that gather in Jerusalem soon after the Sixth seal, [as is the sequence of Revelation] are true Christians from every tribe, race and language, but are deemed to be the issue of Abraham, then in order to select the 144,000 from them, the Lord must assign them into the 12 Israelite tribes.”
See, this is what happens when one denies the plain truth of scripture. One needs to then reassign prophecies out of their place and time, create false identities to try and make sense of something that already made sense but one refuses to open their eyes. I hate to be the one to break it to you but the “vast throng” of Rev. 7:9 is the raptured church standing before the throne of God in heaven!!! Jerusalem is nowhere in sight in this part of the prophecy and nowhere is it mentioned that they are the “issue of Abraham”. Do you just make this stuff up or what?
The description given in Rev. 7:11 cannot be anywhere but in heaven! “And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God.” Compare with Rev. 5:6 – “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
The 144,000 are not present in this group. They are a separate entity reserved by God for His specific purposes from the specific tribes of Israel as mentioned in scripture. There are no Gentiles or “spiritual” Jews among them.
Your words: “Your incorrect beliefs of end times leads you to think that prophesies like Isaiah 66:19 happen after the Return. Note in Isaiah 66:15-16 how the Lord will come in fire. Is this referring to the Return? And do those survivors of that fire proclaim His glory to the nations that have never yet heard of Me after the Return- when all the world will see Him? Isaiah 49:6”
It’s not my beliefs that are incorrect. Compare Is. 66:15-16 – “For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” With
Rev. 19:11-15 – “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
So, yes Is. 66 is a picture of the return. At one point after Armageddon there will be the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. Once those of the nations who are deemed worthy to enter into the millennium, they will be sent back to their homeland. A little while later the 144,000 could be the ones that go out to the nations to tell them about Christ. They will have had 3 ½ yrs. of intense teaching to prepare them for that role. (Rev. 12:14). Just because they may have seen Christ and even stood before Him, it doesn’t automatically translate into “knowing” Him as Lord and Savior.
Your words: “Rev 14:6-7 says it is an angel who proclaims the Gospel, but this is an obvious allegory, proved by Isa 66:19. John was seeing visions and God used an angel to show how those He had chosen in the previous verses would go out to all the world, in the same manner as Jesus sent the 72 out. Luke 10:1-11.”
Why would you consider this an allegory? Is. 66:19 is post-Armageddon. Rev. 14:6-7 is post rapture of the church and post the rapture/resurrection of the two witnesses. The 144,000+ are in hiding, there is no one else left to preach. It’s just another sign of God’s amazing grace that He is offering humanity a final chance to come to terms with who God is and what is in store for them if they don’t repent. You don’t need the 144,000 at this point, their job comes later at the proper timing of Is. 66. No one of the latter day generation will be able to stand at judgment and say we never knew or heard. I believe the way I do because when you compare all the prophetic scriptures together it makes perfect sense and the story line flows smoothly. I simply take God’s word as it is written or implied by several verses (never just one).
Your words from post #55: “Isaiah 66:20-21 goes on to say how the Israelites, [true Christians] be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in Gentiles, will travel to and live in the holy Land. Some will become Priests in the new Temple and as we see in Ezekiel 43:2, the glory of God will be in the Temple as it was in Solomon's day.
Trekson, Isaiah 66:21 proves the fact that the Lord will designate His people into the various tribes.”
The “brethren” of vs. 20 will be all the physical Jews (descendants of Jacob) (the vast majority of grafted in Gentiles would have been raptured years before) who have not yet returned to the homeland. Vs. 21 is speaking of the 144,000 and the “sign” is the seal from Rev. 7. Sorry but vs. 21 is speaking strictly of physical Jews. The earth is for them, not us (the church) at this point in time. Just because you continue to deny the reality doesn’t mean your interpretations are correct and you may get one like S4C to agree with you but two wrongs still don’t make a right.
See, this is what happens when one denies the plain truth of scripture. One needs to then reassign prophecies out of their place and time, create false identities to try and make sense of something that already made sense but one refuses to open their eyes. I hate to be the one to break it to you but the “vast throng” of Rev. 7:9 is the raptured church standing before the throne of God in heaven!!! Jerusalem is nowhere in sight in this part of the prophecy and nowhere is it mentioned that they are the “issue of Abraham”. Do you just make this stuff up or what?
The description given in Rev. 7:11 cannot be anywhere but in heaven! “And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God.” Compare with Rev. 5:6 – “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
The 144,000 are not present in this group. They are a separate entity reserved by God for His specific purposes from the specific tribes of Israel as mentioned in scripture. There are no Gentiles or “spiritual” Jews among them.
Your words: “Your incorrect beliefs of end times leads you to think that prophesies like Isaiah 66:19 happen after the Return. Note in Isaiah 66:15-16 how the Lord will come in fire. Is this referring to the Return? And do those survivors of that fire proclaim His glory to the nations that have never yet heard of Me after the Return- when all the world will see Him? Isaiah 49:6”
It’s not my beliefs that are incorrect. Compare Is. 66:15-16 – “For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” With
Rev. 19:11-15 – “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
So, yes Is. 66 is a picture of the return. At one point after Armageddon there will be the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25. Once those of the nations who are deemed worthy to enter into the millennium, they will be sent back to their homeland. A little while later the 144,000 could be the ones that go out to the nations to tell them about Christ. They will have had 3 ½ yrs. of intense teaching to prepare them for that role. (Rev. 12:14). Just because they may have seen Christ and even stood before Him, it doesn’t automatically translate into “knowing” Him as Lord and Savior.
Your words: “Rev 14:6-7 says it is an angel who proclaims the Gospel, but this is an obvious allegory, proved by Isa 66:19. John was seeing visions and God used an angel to show how those He had chosen in the previous verses would go out to all the world, in the same manner as Jesus sent the 72 out. Luke 10:1-11.”
Why would you consider this an allegory? Is. 66:19 is post-Armageddon. Rev. 14:6-7 is post rapture of the church and post the rapture/resurrection of the two witnesses. The 144,000+ are in hiding, there is no one else left to preach. It’s just another sign of God’s amazing grace that He is offering humanity a final chance to come to terms with who God is and what is in store for them if they don’t repent. You don’t need the 144,000 at this point, their job comes later at the proper timing of Is. 66. No one of the latter day generation will be able to stand at judgment and say we never knew or heard. I believe the way I do because when you compare all the prophetic scriptures together it makes perfect sense and the story line flows smoothly. I simply take God’s word as it is written or implied by several verses (never just one).
Your words from post #55: “Isaiah 66:20-21 goes on to say how the Israelites, [true Christians] be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in Gentiles, will travel to and live in the holy Land. Some will become Priests in the new Temple and as we see in Ezekiel 43:2, the glory of God will be in the Temple as it was in Solomon's day.
Trekson, Isaiah 66:21 proves the fact that the Lord will designate His people into the various tribes.”
The “brethren” of vs. 20 will be all the physical Jews (descendants of Jacob) (the vast majority of grafted in Gentiles would have been raptured years before) who have not yet returned to the homeland. Vs. 21 is speaking of the 144,000 and the “sign” is the seal from Rev. 7. Sorry but vs. 21 is speaking strictly of physical Jews. The earth is for them, not us (the church) at this point in time. Just because you continue to deny the reality doesn’t mean your interpretations are correct and you may get one like S4C to agree with you but two wrongs still don’t make a right.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Reality: Trekson? Why must you insist that the events of Rev. 7 are in heaven, when nowhere does it say that.
God's Throne and His court can be anywhere and as Ezekiel 1:4-28 proves it can be seen by someone on earth.
re the 144,000, look at Matthew 24:14. Obviously it will be Christians who will proclaim the Kingdom and it seems they will do it before the AoD mentioned in verse 15. We see in Luke 10:1-20 how the Lord appointed 72 to go out in pairs to say: the Kingdom of God has come upon you. But did Satan 'fall from heaven then? No that does not happen until Rev 12:7-9, which is 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. So the 144,000, who are followers of Jesus, that is: true Christians, will proclaim the coming Kingdom. Note that 72+72= 144.
God's Throne and His court can be anywhere and as Ezekiel 1:4-28 proves it can be seen by someone on earth.
re the 144,000, look at Matthew 24:14. Obviously it will be Christians who will proclaim the Kingdom and it seems they will do it before the AoD mentioned in verse 15. We see in Luke 10:1-20 how the Lord appointed 72 to go out in pairs to say: the Kingdom of God has come upon you. But did Satan 'fall from heaven then? No that does not happen until Rev 12:7-9, which is 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. So the 144,000, who are followers of Jesus, that is: true Christians, will proclaim the coming Kingdom. Note that 72+72= 144.
Hi Keras, Your words: "Reality: Trekson? Why must you insist that the events of Rev. 7 are in heaven, when nowhere does it say that.
God's Throne and His court can be anywhere and as Ezekiel 1:4-28 proves it can be seen by someone on earth."
Do you ever really read the scriptures you debate? Of course the scriptures say God's throne is in heaven!!!
Rev. 4:1-2 - "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
Ez. 1:1 - "Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."
Both John and Ezekial were shown visions of the "real place" called heaven! They are most certainly not seeing a location anywhere on Earth!
Your words: "re the 144,000, look at Matthew 24:14. Obviously it will be Christians who will proclaim the Kingdom and it seems they will do it before the AoD mentioned in verse 15. We see in Luke 10:1-20 how the Lord appointed 72 to go out in pairs to say: the Kingdom of God has come upon you. But did Satan 'fall from heaven then? No that does not happen until Rev 12:7-9, which is 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. So the 144,000, who are followers of Jesus, that is: true Christians, will proclaim the coming Kingdom. Note that 72+72= 144."
Heavy sigh! We, the church, are the ones who will spread the gospel to every nation but that doesn't mean everyone will heed the message. This is the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19-20. This has to be done before the 70th week commences.
Regarding Luke 10, the Lord appointed 70, not 72 and your math means nothing. I agree with the highlighted part but that return is when his feet touch the ground, not his return in the clouds for the church. There is nothing in scripture about the 144,000 proclaiming anything until after Armageddon and that is subjective, although I agree with it, it is not stated outright in scripture.
God's Throne and His court can be anywhere and as Ezekiel 1:4-28 proves it can be seen by someone on earth."
Do you ever really read the scriptures you debate? Of course the scriptures say God's throne is in heaven!!!
Rev. 4:1-2 - "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
Ez. 1:1 - "Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."
Both John and Ezekial were shown visions of the "real place" called heaven! They are most certainly not seeing a location anywhere on Earth!
Your words: "re the 144,000, look at Matthew 24:14. Obviously it will be Christians who will proclaim the Kingdom and it seems they will do it before the AoD mentioned in verse 15. We see in Luke 10:1-20 how the Lord appointed 72 to go out in pairs to say: the Kingdom of God has come upon you. But did Satan 'fall from heaven then? No that does not happen until Rev 12:7-9, which is 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. So the 144,000, who are followers of Jesus, that is: true Christians, will proclaim the coming Kingdom. Note that 72+72= 144."
Heavy sigh! We, the church, are the ones who will spread the gospel to every nation but that doesn't mean everyone will heed the message. This is the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19-20. This has to be done before the 70th week commences.
Regarding Luke 10, the Lord appointed 70, not 72 and your math means nothing. I agree with the highlighted part but that return is when his feet touch the ground, not his return in the clouds for the church. There is nothing in scripture about the 144,000 proclaiming anything until after Armageddon and that is subjective, although I agree with it, it is not stated outright in scripture.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
The nicest thing I can say about you, Trekson, is that you play fast and loose with the truth.
Yes, Rev 4 says God is in heaven, but Rev 7 DOESN"T.
Rev 7:1-3 And after these things...the angel holds back the four winds of the EARTH, that the winds should not blow on the EARTH nor on the SEA, nor on any TREE. Hurt not the EARTH, the SEA and the TREES, until we have sealed God's servants. Rev 7:15... they serve God in His Temple and He will dwell among them.
Heaven is NOT mentioned in Rev 7, but earth is and we know from Rev 14:1 that the 144,000 are in Jerusalem.
Re visions; Ezekiel remained on earth, whether he saw a dream or the reality we cannot know. John was taken up to heaven, Rev 4:1, but not to live there. Even the two witnesses, Rev 11:12, are taken up to heaven, but cannot live there, as Jesus soon Returns and if they did it would make Jesus wrong. John 3:13
Re missionaries; I have worked on the mission field and also see how apostate the Western world has become. Far from Christianity gaining converts, we are falling back fast! There are still very many tribes, nations and languages that have never heard the Gospel. Only the inspired 144,000 can do the job.
Luke 10:1 - I can tell you are a KJV sticker. Most other superior Bible versions say the Lord sent out 72.
Yes, Rev 4 says God is in heaven, but Rev 7 DOESN"T.
Rev 7:1-3 And after these things...the angel holds back the four winds of the EARTH, that the winds should not blow on the EARTH nor on the SEA, nor on any TREE. Hurt not the EARTH, the SEA and the TREES, until we have sealed God's servants. Rev 7:15... they serve God in His Temple and He will dwell among them.
Heaven is NOT mentioned in Rev 7, but earth is and we know from Rev 14:1 that the 144,000 are in Jerusalem.
Re visions; Ezekiel remained on earth, whether he saw a dream or the reality we cannot know. John was taken up to heaven, Rev 4:1, but not to live there. Even the two witnesses, Rev 11:12, are taken up to heaven, but cannot live there, as Jesus soon Returns and if they did it would make Jesus wrong. John 3:13
Re missionaries; I have worked on the mission field and also see how apostate the Western world has become. Far from Christianity gaining converts, we are falling back fast! There are still very many tribes, nations and languages that have never heard the Gospel. Only the inspired 144,000 can do the job.
Luke 10:1 - I can tell you are a KJV sticker. Most other superior Bible versions say the Lord sent out 72.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Negative, you misread what I wrote just as you do Isaiah 66:19.keras said:
19 I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations.
The "survivors" are the less than 1% that make it through the one 'seven.' This is a Millennium passage.
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