Heaven

[aspen]

Is it a state of being


Or


A destination?


Or


Both?

 

[FHII]

Not a very original question but always an interesting one. Wouldn't we all like to know!

I can't possibly provide an answer, but I can give some thoughts. I say both. I think it is a destination in that some may have not arrived there but will. I think it is a state of being in that it isn't a carnal place, but a spiritual rhelm. I do think we can be in heavenly places now here on earth. Jesus said 5 times in the book of John, "...where I am..." and in context he was hinting that it was a place they could or couldn't be (depending on the audience). Yet, he spoke this while being on earth physically.

There seems to be more than o e "heaven". Paul says in 2 cor 12 he knew a man caught up into the 3rd heaven. He didn't even know if it was physical or spriritual... He also noted that paradise was the third heaven. Perhaps the same paradise that Jesus spoke of to the thief on the cross.

Just brainstorming... But if we call it a destination, its speaking of a spiritual rhelm to be entered when we leave our mortal body. If we call it a state of mind, we can enter it while still being in our mortal body.

That's all I got... Thanks

 

[aspen]

Not a very original question but always an interesting one. Wouldn't we all like to know!

I can't possibly provide an answer, but I can give some thoughts. I say both. I think it is a destination in that some may have not arrived there but will. I think it is a state of being in that it isn't a carnal place, but a spiritual rhelm. I do think we can be in heavenly places now here on earth. Jesus said 5 times in the book of John, "...where I am..." and in context he was hinting that it was a place they could or couldn't be (depending on the audience). Yet, he spoke this while being on earth physically.

There seems to be more than o e "heaven". Paul says in 2 cor 12 he knew a man caught up into the 3rd heaven. He didn't even know if it was physical or spriritual... He also noted that paradise was the third heaven. Perhaps the same paradise that Jesus spoke of to the thief on the cross.

Just brainstorming... But if we call it a destination, its speaking of a spiritual rhelm to be entered when we leave our mortal body. If we call it a state of mind, we can enter it while still being in our mortal body.

That's all I got... Thanks

Yes, it is speculative and not very original, but positive and enjoyable to think about. I’ve been thinking about Heaven a great deal during the past two-three years. I’ve meditated on Paul’s words, as well.

The circus of our current reality is certainly passing away

 

[Helen]

Yes, I believe it is both. I believe it is a 'realm of being'...not millions of miles away.....just an unseen realm...

Yes, it's always interesting to ponder it.

 

[Willie T]

Probably "both" to a certain extent, but I think it is mainly a state of mind.... as far as we can understand what that might mean.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Is it a state of being

Or

A destination

As Heaven is where God is, it is not a 'state of being', but is a place.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Leave it to you, aspen, to start a thread on love or Heaven, you"re the best!

Both.
(I mean if anyone can call where an infinite Divine Spirit hangs out
where there is no space or time ...a "place"! Lol!) *wink*
As long as people think in limited linear, spacial and physical,
3rd dimensional ways...it would seem like a 'place'.
But it isn't exactly like getting in a car from point A to B, Lol!

Ever see the movie ,"The Mists of Avalon"?
A sweet metaphor for Heaven...always there for those it opens itself to...
those with the eyes to see, basically.

Some think Heaven opens to those and only those that follow Jesus...
well, I can offer a bit of controversial Divine Insight, no one has to believe, of course,
(and please please don't, find out for yourselves!l);
there is a Key...simply put, it's Purity.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is it a state of being


Or


A destination?


Or


Both?

What's the difference?
One results in the other.

Weird.....

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Is it a state of being
Or
A destination?
Or
Both?

The Biblical heavens is made up of 3 places and thus destinations.

If we consider where God's throne is, did God had to create where He lives or is?? But He had to create the other 2 kinds of heavens.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth....7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so....

The first heaven.. the upper atmosphere

Genesis 2:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

The second heaven is outer space.

2 Corinthians 12:I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

There is a third heaven where God's throne is where the apostle John was caught up made possible because Jesus Christ is there for John to do that.

I cannot say which of the first two heaven that Enoch and Elijah were taken to and it could very well be both, but I really believe it was not the third heaven where God's throne is, but eventually they will be after their death & resurrection during the great tribulation.

I believe God always was and so was Heaven where He dwells and so that was not created, but the upper atmosphere and outer space was created.

As for state of being, I think the world is the one responsible for that definition like... eating their favorite ice cream is like being in Heaven which is just their way of expressing metaphorically how happy they are at that moment.

 

[amadeus]

@aspen @JesusIsFaithful

Hmmm? Upper atmosphere, Outer Space and God's throne, but is there nothing more?

I wonder if these would or could correspond to the three levels of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Most believers, like most the natural Israelites could not even stand long with at Heaven No. 1. (outer court) while only those in the priesthood could go past the 1st veil to Heavne No.2 (Holy Place) . Only one priest (the High Priest) of the priests could ever go past the 2nd veil to Heaven No. 3 (Most Holy Place or Holiest of Holies).

We (who could be a royal priesthood) have an advantage over those Israelites in that all of us have the potential to not only passing through the 1st veil, but also the 2nd. But the route to Heaven No. 2 and Heaven No. 3 is always through a Heaven No. 1. We, in spite of our advantage, find ourselves continually having to start over again as with our 1st repentance (lost our 1st love: Rev 2:4). To ever be face to face with God we must make it to Heaven No.3 where there is not and never has been any sin at all. Impossible right? For man alone it is! So we cannot walk that road alone.

Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

This place of perfection with the Father is, if you can understand it, Third Heaven (behind the 2nd veil). All believers have made it by faith (belief) to 1st Heaven (although many leave regularly to sin again). They are unclean (in 1st Heaven), and they seldom stay long enough to allow themselves to be made into clean animals (dwellers in 2nd heaven).

[Here we may also see type or shadowsn of the three heavens depicted in the three levels of the Ark Noah built under God’s direction [Genesis chapters 6-8]. Notice that unclean animals, clean animals along with people are saved? This connects up with the beast(s) in man and/or that man is a beast.

What does it take to enter into Third Heaven?

The unclean beast nature of a man must not only become a cleaned-up beast but completely killed (Prov. 9:1-2) to enter and remain in 3rd Heaven.

This is moving from faith to faith (belief to belief) [Rom 1:17], but the final step, I believe, is moving beyond believing to a real knowledge [the end of faith: I Peter 1:9], which means no longer seeing "through a glass darkly".

 

[aspen]

The three levels correspond to earth, atmosphere, and beyond

 

[pia]

What does it take to enter into Third Heaven?

Great post once again ....In response to the highlighted sentence, I would say it just takes The Lord , He seems to be able to take us 'places'.....

 

[Naomi25]

Is it a state of being


Or


A destination?


Or


Both?

Are we talking "heaven" now, or what will, essentially be the "New Heavens and New Earth"?
I'm guessing heaven now....
I think the bible teaches that when a believer dies now...before the world ends, we will be with the Lord in 'heaven'. Probably in spirit, while we await the resurrection of our new bodies.

Paul says is 1 Cor 15:40: There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.

He goes on to tell us that our new bodies will be spiritual bodies. We know, from the example of Christ, that this doesn't actually mean 'spirit', as in incorporeal....although at times it did seem Jesus possessed that ability. But he was still physical enough to eat and be touched.

Paul again says in 2 Cor 5:1: For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

Some have speculated this passage means we shall have some sort of physical 'temporary' body in heaven, but...we can't know! What we do know for sure is: our old bodies we be left behind, our new bodies will be received at the second coming, so in between we will be spirit, or 'heavenly dwelling'.

And, obviously...it will be a place. If we are to "be with the Lord", it is a place. Many people forget, I think, that Jesus still has his new resurrected body. The one he ate with, the one the disciples touched. The one he will live forever with us in, as our God. He is someplace in that body. And when we die, we will be with him.

 

[Helen]

Isn't 'heaven' the final 'face to face' with Love Himself ?...the full revealing of His nature?
So that part would fit into "realm"
But I do also believe that there is a tangible spiritual "place". ( whatever tangible spirit is lol )
Where place where God reveals the many levels, places, ( mansions) within Himself. But I don't see that as being "out there",far passed the first and second heavens...and then finally we reach the third heaven!!
I believe as Paul says, he was caught up there...but I think his journey to that place was an " inward journey. "

 

[Truth]

Is it a state of being


Or


A destination?


Or


Both?

I Think> which would be the carnal thought, which is a place in this realm, that we obtain, that Peace that passes all understanding! Knowing that He, Our Savior promised never to leave us, nor forsake us!
I agree that there is a Spiritual Heaven that no mortal being can inter, with the exception of Our Savior, leading one such as John on the isle of Patmos, where John still in the physical journeyed to the Throne room of God, in the Spirit, probably not going to happen to me, But then there is the fact that the Earth will be Restored, as it was like the Garden. and let us not forget that I think it was Peter that walked out into the Desert, and witnessed to the Eunuch, and baptized him and then disappeared!
People speak of Heaven, with many different view's and understanding's

Heaven? Every Believer's HOPE !! what we hold onto in this world, and what we Hope to attain at the end.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

@aspen @JesusIsFaithful

Hmmm? Upper atmosphere, Outer Space and God's throne, but is there nothing more?

I wonder if these would or could correspond to the three levels of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Most believers, like most the natural Israelites could not even stand long with at Heaven No. 1. (outer court) while only those in the priesthood could go past the 1st veil to Heavne No.2 (Holy Place) . Only one priest (the High Priest) of the priests could ever go past the 2nd veil to Heaven No. 3 (Most Holy Place or Holiest of Holies).

We (who could be a royal priesthood) have an advantage over those Israelites in that all of us have the potential to not only passing through the 1st veil, but also the 2nd. But the route to Heaven No. 2 and Heaven No. 3 is always through a Heaven No. 1. We, in spite of our advantage, find ourselves continually having to start over again as with our 1st repentance (lost our 1st love: Rev 2:4). To ever be face to face with God we must make it to Heaven No.3 where there is not and never has been any sin at all. Impossible right? For man alone it is! So we cannot walk that road alone.

Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

This place of perfection with the Father is, if you can understand it, Third Heaven (behind the 2nd veil). All believers have made it by faith (belief) to 1st Heaven (although many leave regularly to sin again). They are unclean (in 1st Heaven), and they seldom stay long enough to allow themselves to be made into clean animals (dwellers in 2nd heaven).

[Here we may also see type or shadowsn of the three heavens depicted in the three levels of the Ark Noah built under God’s direction [Genesis chapters 6-8]. Notice that unclean animals, clean animals along with people are saved? This connects up with the beast(s) in man and/or that man is a beast.

What does it take to enter into Third Heaven?

The unclean beast nature of a man must not only become a cleaned-up beast but completely killed (Prov. 9:1-2) to enter and remain in 3rd Heaven.

This is moving from faith to faith (belief to belief) [Rom 1:17], but the final step, I believe, is moving beyond believing to a real knowledge [the end of faith: I Peter 1:9], which means no longer seeing "through a glass darkly".

Since God created the heaven and the earth, where did God had done this from? Where He dwells. So the universe, as in our reality, is liken to the holodeck on the Starship Enterprise ( if you pardon the poor comparison ) where Heaven and God's throne exists outside the universe He has created.

 

[Truth]

Since God created the heaven and the earth, where did God had done this from? Where He dwells. So the universe, as in our reality, is liken to the holodeck on the Starship Enterprise ( if you pardon the poor comparison ) where Heaven and God's throne exists outside the universe He has created.

Yes, on Sabbath we thank God with this Prayer> Blessed are you our Lord our God Creator of the Heaven's and the Earth, KING of the Universe. there is no telling from where God Created all thing's, But He did Create Everything, the Scripture's say that God Measure's the Universe with the span of His Hand.

 

[aspen]

Isn't 'heaven' the final 'face to face' with Love Himself ?...the full revealing of His nature?
So that part would fit into "realm"
But I do also believe that there is a tangible spiritual "place". ( whatever tangible spirit is lol )
Where place where God reveals the many levels, places, ( mansions) within Himself. But I don't see that as being "out there",far passed the first and second heavens...and then finally we reach the third heaven!!
I believe as Paul says, he was caught up there...but I think his journey to that place was an " inward journey. "

You are sounding very Catholic, right now! The Beautific Vision

 

[brakelite]

Here's an essay I wrote 8 years ago from which you may understand my views on the matter. I called it
Heaven's Point of View.

Surely, this was not the way it was intended to be”. These sentiments were echoed back and forth across heaven. Wonder, consternation, and astonishment was written almost indelibly upon the faces of every angel and every creature that graced God’s universe. How could anyone have been prepared for that? I know I wasn’t, and looking at the expressions on the faces of those around me, I could see they weren’t expecting anything like what we were witnessing either. Sure, we knew the prophecies, even Jesus Himself had warned us a long time ago of what to expect, but all the foreknowledge in the universe could not have prepared us adequately. The unbounded joy and excitement we all experienced and expressed at the announcement of His birth (yes, I was there, among many thousand others, and all of heaven was singing that day, not just those the shepherds could see) was now, in light of recent events and what was transpiring before us, a fast fading memory.

It is difficult to describe what I was actually feeling at that moment. So many emotions were fighting for the ascendancy, it was impossible to discern whether it was the anger, the shock, or the horror (and in hindsight no small amount of confusion) that was foremost in my heart. That mere mortal sinful rebellious man could so blaspheme and insult all that is good and righteous and holy by abusing and violently assaulting his own Creator and the Author of righteousness staggered the imagination. That the entire watching universe was equally astonished was not open to question. That He who had been loved, worshipped and adored by all His creation for millennia should then be subjected to the disgusting and abominable insults and abuses by not just pagan idolaters but also by those who dared even to claim to be His children was extremely difficult to comprehend.

I remember glancing at the Almighty Father and could see oh so clearly the anguish etched into His face. Out of simple respect I could not allow myself to look upon Him longer than with the briefest of glances, veiling my eyes that I may not be tempted to look again, yet I will never forget how painful those events were for our Father, never before nor since was there such indescribable sorrow seen in the eyes of our Lord, though it was a little later that I understood more fully the reason why. I feared for those perpetrating these crimes, and wondered at God’s patience. I wondered at Jesus’ patience, as He calmly accepted the abuse, without any sign of malice or resentment on His part. What long-suffering as He endured the pain of the thorns, and the savagery of the punches. And as I watched, painful as it was even to witness, I was beginning to experience another emotion that was making itself more pronounced in my heart, and that was a deepening wonder at the love of God. Never before have we, nor any other creature, ever seen the grace of God. For before us then, we saw an aspect of the love of God that transcends any other. That the Almighty Father would give His only Son for the sake of man! For the sake of the only rebellious race in the universe, God was pouring out the very heart of His own love, His only Son. What manner of love is this? If only man could understand and perceive and trust in the inconceivable depth of the love that God has for him, there would be no limits to the power that God would be pleased to exert on his behalf.

We were wondering how long however could Jesus endure? Yet there was a greater inner conflict and battle than the physical. The spiritual battle that was raging in the soul of Jesus took a far greater toll than the physical suffering. Since that time man has focused his attention on the physical aspects of the trial and execution of Jesus, but the physical and verbal aspects of the suffering that Jesus was enduring was minimal compared with the spiritual suffering He had voluntarily accepted. This of course began in the garden. Before any man had laid hands upon Him, before anyone had spoken a word against Him, Jesus was already suffering and in His own words, declared, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death.” For a while then I was wondering what was happening. We all could clearly see the deep anguish that was coming upon Him. Sweating blood for goodness sake!! What was going on?? Then we could hear Him praying to His Father, “O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” And with that single prayer, a light was beginning to dawn upon our own hearts and minds as to what Jesus ultimate purpose was in becoming a man. Then, the light shone even brighter as He prayed, “O My Father, if this cup may not pass from Me, except I drink it, thy will be done”. Jesus was to drink the cup of God’s wrath against sin and sinners that man, if he would accept it, may be free from the curse of the law. And we later realized that the physical and verbal abuses were barely felt in comparison to the dread He must have been feeling at the separation from His Father. All the OT prophecies began to fall into place, and we realized, albeit belatedly, that this was the only way it could be.

Yet even then, every angel in heaven was waiting, watching their respective leaders for the slightest hint that they may fly to their Commander’s rescue. Jesus of course could have rescued Himself; He could have at any moment decided enough is enough, that man is not worth this. But no, clearly in the sight of Jesus and in the sight of the Father, man was indeed worth this, that Jesus would suffer separation from His Father rather than have man separated from Him. What love!!! What love for man that God, the Almighty Father and Creator of the universe could so love man with as much passion, consideration, and commitment as He did for His own Son. Astonishing. And as we began to contemplate this depth and passion of the love of God, our own love for Him grew exponentially, and our desire to deliver Him from that suffering increased proportionately, yet we stayed our hand, we obeyed our leaders and our God and patiently watched throughout the whole proceedings.

I remember looking at Gabriel. He was indescribably consternated. Pacing animatedly to and fro on the borders of heaven, he had one eye upon His Commander, tears streaming down upon his face, the other, almost pleadingly upon the Almighty, waiting and hoping even for the slightest hint, the barest nod, that he may send his armies to His Lord’s rescue. But the call never came, the nod not given.

After the trial was finally concluded, and the cross laid upon the bleeding back of our Lord, there was silence throughout heaven. There was none of the usual singing and playing of instruments in worship. Every eye was focused, every thought intent only upon what was being enacted upon Calvary. Previously there were moments of hope when we thought we may be released to bring our Lord home. When in the garden Jesus told Peter, “Thinkest thou that I cannot pray to My Father, and He shall presently give Me more than 12 legions of angels?” our spirits lifted and upon hearing that, our hopes were raised, and all became instantly alert to any possible directive that may result in our winging our way to the earth, but our hopes faded when Jesus added, “But then, how shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that this must be?”

 

[brakelite]

Continued.....

Then again, a little later during His mockery of a trial, all commotion broke forth in heaven as Jesus was blindfolded and punched, and those punching Him demanded He prophesy and tell them who it was who was doing such a thing! What unadulterated disdain this was for the Majesty of heaven! Surely we thought that now we would be sent to His aid. But no. Even this the Father endured. And then, as Jesus was hanging upon the cross, even as He ministered in love still to even those who hammered the nails into place, all heaven slowly became resigned to the fact that their beloved Lord was going to die. But not just die, the weight of the sins and the burden of guilt of the entire world were being placed upon Him, and the separation and wrath that sin is to bring upon the sinner was then being placed upon Him who knew no sin; Jesus was not dying from the physical wounds that the Roman soldiers had inflicted, Jesus was dying of a broken heart. And there was not a dry eye in heaven. All were weeping openly and without reserve. Unashamedly every angel in the universe of God was sharing in the Almighty Father’s sorrow and pain. And as we became aware that Jesus feared that because sin is so obnoxious to God, because sin and God cannot co-exist, He will be forever separated from His Father, we all desired that we could at least go and give Him comfort, and as His words “My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken Me?” rung our hearts and brought to the surface fresh waves of sorrow and consternation, we would almost have ignored orders in our concern and love, but we were each reminded that this path must Jesus tread alone. Without comfort, without support, with no encouragement from neither God nor man, Jesus must on His own bear the burden of guilt for all mankind and suffer the cup of wrath poured out without mercy from the Father.

The Almighty however encouraged us in our sorrow. When it was all over, and Jesus was being laid in the tomb, Father reminded us that Satan was now defeated. The way for man’s redemption was now open, and all we needed to do was await the resurrection for the atonement to be complete. Then even the vilest sinner, even the very ones who put Him to death, would be forgiven if they repented of their sins, and accepted Jesus’ atoning sacrifice as their own. And our sorrow, our grief and anger, began to fade as we realized the fullness of the grace, mercy and love of God. Our sorrows turned to joy, and we became excited at the prospect of being ministers of God for man’s behalf; excited and impassioned at being given the privilege of having a share in the proclamation of the everlasting gospel to be preached by man to all the world.

In light of all the evidence that proclaims loudly of the deep love and compassion that God has for man, what man can now refuse and turn away or neglect such salvation? And with great hope and expectation we proceed to give our aid, albeit invisibly and quietly, to the disciples as they preach the word of salvation to their neighbours and compatriots. Alas however, Jesus’ own words become oh so poignant and relevant.

“ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat……”

…… “ But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.”


Not what God desires nor hopes for, and certainly not what any should aim for, yet it will be true that although many shall accept God’s provision for the salvation of man, the vast majority shall reject it. And sadly, God’s heart and Jesus’ also and even our own will be wrung out again as we witness the wrath of God’s justice that will be poured out upon those whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb. That is a page yet to be written, although even now can we clearly see the pages of man’s history coming to a close, and the final episode of earth’s current existence before its final cleansing by fire, well advanced and drawing to its inevitable climax.

Our task and duty is to now do all that is possible in assisting you to understand the lateness of the hour. We rejoice that there is a remnant who have a passion for sharing truth to the world, but who also are very aware that because the population of the world is increasing far greater than the church can keep up with, they understand that without divine assistance, the task of preaching the gospel to mankind would be impossible. Even now we see in their corporate committee meetings, in their homes, churches, and as individuals, they are daily seeking for reformation and revival that they may be ready for the promised latter rain. Confessing their sins, and seeking a closer relationship with God, they understand that though they play a part, it will be God who finishes the work, and open the way for Jesus to return and take His redeemed ones home. Won’t you join them? What is there that the world can offer in comparison to your soul? What is there of greater worth than eternal life?

Never before has heaven been so busy. The sanctuary where Jesus and the Father sit, is awash with intense activity, as my brothers and myself constantly travel to and fro doing all we can to assist man in his quest for truth. No-one who sincerely seeks for truth will go unnoticed, or will be disappointed. Time is so short, the climax so near, yet the majority of mankind is so blind. Regardless of the power of the preached word, as with those of Noah’s day, most will be swept aside and destroyed. Not because they have sinned, but because they have ignored their opportunities, and spurned the many offers of mercy. Do not be like them. They have loved the world more than God: oh that you may listen, oh that you may humble yourself and pray, seek the face of God, and turn away from your sins. Then from heaven will God hear, forgive you of your sins, and heal them. He will heal your families, your homes, your relationships, and your name shall be written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Hear God’s word. Listen to His pleas for you to forsake the things of this world and make the kingdom of God your own. Jesus is coming soon; the greatest event in the history of the world where Jesus comes as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is soon to dawn upon mankind. God is preparing His people even now, and passionately desires that you be among them. Be not among those who fear His coming, but be of them who rejoice and who love His appearing. Know my friend, that Jesus loves you. With a passion. And when Jesus comes, He will find a people holy and unblameable, and if you accept the cross as your own, you may join them, and maybe, just maybe, I will be the one assigned to attend to you and guide you on your road to eternity. But if not, I look forward to standing with you before the throne of God, and joining with you in singing the praises of God and Jesus your Saviour.