Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

[Taken]

So, you'll agree that in the beginning "God stepped out onto nothing and spoke to nothing, and from nothing came forth everything"...

I would agree to God had no beginning, and Created and Made All things, By:
His Ideas, His Word, His Power.

but you cannot allow for the idea that God will blot out from existence everything that bears the mark of the curse of sin along with the wicked?

I would agree God:
God records identities (names), and BLOTS out names, and Removes things associated with those (names) from His Presence, and from the Presence of those things WITH Him.

I would agree God:
Burns things that are Against Him, (or otherwise DO NOT Glorify "HIS" Name.)

Correct, Genesis 2:7 says a "Living Soul" comes into existence as as a consequence of the union of the Body and God's Breath of Life.

I would say, as I already did;
A FORMED BODY, comes into a living state (ie is quickened), WHEN a Living soul IS within the BODY.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is clear that at death, the Body returns to the dust and the Spirit (Breath of Life) returns to God.

Yes, the Body returns to dust.
All souls belong to God.
The Life IN the soul is FROM God....and shall go to where He sends it.

Scriptural study of knowledge in Jesus' Doctrine reveals, NO souls have YET had Life Departed out of the souls.

Concluding that at death our "Soul" flies off from our body

Souls are not "on" a body to fly "off" from.
Souls are IN a body that has been "quickened".
A "quickened" body's own LIFE (BLOOD), comes into a living state, and that LIFE, (BLOOD) maintains the living state of the Body.
When the LIFE (BLOOD) of the Body stops functioning, the BODY becomes physically dead.
As the BODY is DYING, the Living soul, DEPARTS OUT OF THE BODY.

WHERE the Living souls GOES, is dependant upon WHERE God "sends" it.

WHERE God "sends" the Living souls, Departed OUT of dying bodies is dependant upon;
1) IF the man was With or Against God.
2) If the man physically DIED, before or after,
Jesus' Bodily Death.

to be with God is a total distortion/disregard of no less than two truths:

No. It would be moreso your lack of understanding.

(Continued)

 

[BobRyan]

Why did God create the universe and all that pertains to it, including Hell, if not for his glory? God reveals his glory using sin as the back-drop. Against sin we see his mercy, grace, love, forbearance, and other like attributes.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW of God" -- i.e. "rebellion"

1. God did not create rebellion. He did not create sin. God created "free will".
2. God did create punishment for sin in hell, the lake of fire as we see in Rev 20 - but not because He enjoys suffering.
3. God did create the Gospel - but not because He enjoys being tortured on the cross.


But because God is good, he cannot dismiss sin He will ultimately punish sin.
And because God is good, He cannot grant immortality to sin - He cannot create and sustain "eternal rebellion" rather He ends it.

 

[BobRyan]

Truth
That's what destruction is.
So, you'll agree that in the beginning "God stepped out onto nothing and spoke to nothing, and from nothing came forth everything"...but you cannot allow for the idea that God will blot out from existence everything that bears the mark of the curse of sin along with the wicked?
Correct, Genesis 2:7 says a "Living Soul" comes into existence as as a consequence of the union of the Body and God's Breath of Life. Ecclesiastes 12:7 is clear that at death, the Body returns to the dust and the Spirit (Breath of Life) returns to God. Concluding that at death our "Soul" flies off from our body to be with God is a total distortion/disregard of no less than two truths: (1) A Soul exists only as a union of the Body and Breath of Life, which at point of dissolution of these two the Soul ceases to exist, and (2) no "Soul" has ever been to heaven, so it cannot fly off from a dead body and "return" to heaven.

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Body - Breath of Life = Dead (non-existent) Soul

Light Bulb + Electric Current = Light shines
Light Bulb - Electric Current = Light ceases to exist
Does the light continue shining "on another plane of existence, or does it just cease to be? Such is the case with the Living Soul
A Soul is not something that "enters a Body" - Genesis 2:7 is crystal clear that the Soul is a product/result/consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. Man doesn't "have" a Soul - Man IS a Soul
Once again, a Living Soul cannot exist except that the Body and the Breath of Life are united. At the dissolution of this union, the Living Soul ceases to exist. Why can't we accept that when a creature - whether a saint, a sinner, or any creature in the animal kingdom - is bereft of the Breath of Life, that Soul dies and ceases to be? This is why the Second Coming is called the "Blessed Hope" - hope for what? If we're already in heaven, then what's the big deal? But, if we've ceased to exist as the Bible plainly teaches, well, then the resurrection becomes the greatest hope of all humanity.
That's what annihilation is: total, complete destruction, which of the wicked "shall leave them neither root nor branch" - a proverb among the Hebrews for complete, total destruction aka annihilation.

Certainly I agree that the wicked are never granted "eternal life" and will not have "eternal life in the lake of fire".

But be careful about the illustrations -- such things tend to oversimplify for the sake of explanation and in that simplification can be less than accurate in detail, because they are actually removing detail for the sake of simplicity.

 

[Taken]

(1) A Soul exists only as a union of the Body

(Continued)

Inaccurate.

and the breath of Life

A soul exists because God MADE it.
A soul is Living because God imparted LIFE into it.
A Body is CREATED from Dust.
A body is quickened (becomes living), when it has a Living soul Imparted into the body.

The Identity of the Body, AND the Living soul, is the same ONE NAME.
The Description of the Body, is terrestrial.
The Description of some terrestrial body's is "man"-KIND, and Others are called "animal"-KIND of bodies.

which at point of dissolution of these two the Soul ceases to exist,

Inaccurate.
Anything Created, "AND" MADE to be a "A Living Created Terrestrial", is accomplished when God gives the Created Terrestrial, Life from Gods Breath, in a soul, IMPARTED Into the Created Terrestrial.

Living souls, Depart out of dying Bodies.

and (2) no "Soul" has ever been to heaven,

Inaccurate.
There is an Order of When things APPLY, to man-KIND.
Jesus IS Before All things. Col 1:17

Living souls, are imparted and departed IN and OUT of "vessels", (bodies), God has Created.
Job 1:21

A living soul CAN be "reimparted" into a DEAD BODY, at Gods Pleasure, (and the body resume living). 1 Kings 17:22

Life of a body is Blood. Gen 9:4
Life of the body is Required of God. Gen 9:5

God IS Life, John 14:6
And ALL Life belongs to Him.
All souls belong to God, Ezek 18:4

so it cannot fly off from a dead body and "return" to heaven.

Living souls, do not remain IN physically dead bodies.(Gen 35:18)

Saved Living souls IN a Living body, HAVE God WITH them, IN them, Always. John 14:17

Saved Living souls Departed out of a physically Dead body, IS Always with God, John 14:17, and go to Where God is.
God is IN Heaven. Psalm 115:3

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Body - Breath of Life = Dead (non-existent) Soul

Inaccurate.
Body is a created terrestrial man KIND of thing, OF DUST.
A Body WITH a Living soul, is a created terrestrial man KIND of thing, that is quicked into living VIA, a Living soul FROM God.

Life, and Souls, do not come from Dust of the Earth.

Light Bulb + Electric Current = Light shines
Light Bulb - Electric Current = Light ceases to exist
Does the light continue shining "on another plane of existence, or does it just cease to be? Such is the case with the Living Soul

Darkness IS the Absence of Light.
Darkness does not "disappear".
Darkness IS OVERCOME by Light.
God IS Light.
Satan is Darkness.
Satan will NOT "disappear". He will become OVERCOME by Gods Light, that he be NOT visible.

A Soul is not something that "enters a Body" -

Inaccurate.

Gen 2:7 ..."INTO his nostrils"...

Genesis 2:7 is crystal clear

A Body is Created from dust of the Created Earth.

Life is IMPARTED INTO a man, BY God.

Life IS "IN" the soul.

Life and Souls belong to God.

that the Soul is a product/result/consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. Man doesn't "have" a Soul -

Man IS a Soul

Man-KIND...."IS" / "HAS" many descriptive things that Apply To Him.

"Your" body, blood, living soul, heart, mind, thoughts, emotions, breath, kidneys, liver, spirit, words, truths, lies, beliefs and on and on ARE You and ARE Yours and ARE identified by the Numerous NAMES That Identify what IS YOU and Yours.

You simply have not come to the understanding....what is called By YOUR Name....is NOT "Always, Only and Exclusively Yours".

You can control Your own Words and bring them forth out of your mouth, or not.

Your Blood Life of Your Body...YOU can control, and cause it to cease Living.

You can Elect and Choose, where your Living Soul WILL GO, once your BODY ceases to be Living......

But YOU can NOT control HOW your Living soul WILL GO to Where you have chosen for IT TO GO.

Once again, a Living Soul cannot exist except that the Body and the Breath of Life are united.

False.

At the dissolution of this union, the Living Soul ceases to exist.

All souls BELONG TO GOD!
All LIFE IN a SOUL BELONGS TO GOD!

Souls will NOT CEASE TO EXIST.
Souls that rejected God, SHALL; BY Gods POWER and AUTHORITY have LIFE departed OUT of the Soul, and that Life Returned TO GOD.
Souls WITHOUT Gods Life IN IT, SHALL BECOME DESTROYED, by Fire.
And so ALSO SHALL the BODY, (in which that SOUL "was" imparted), that BODY also DESTROYED, by Fire.

FIRE consumes and destroys "the appearence of something THAT WAS"....the thing that is DESTROYED BY FIRE, is NO MORE recognizable of what IT "WAS".

Burn a piece of WOOD. It does not DISAPPEAR, it becomes a Differenct FORM, and called ASH, because it is NO LONGER recognized, nor shall be remembered, as WOOD.

Bury a Dead BODY. It doesn't disappear, it becomes a DIFFERENT FORM of matter, called DUST.

Why can't we accept that when a creature - whether a saint, a sinner, or any creature in the animal kingdom - is bereft of the Breath of Life, that Soul dies and ceases to be?

DEATH, has more than ONE understanding.
Carnally, it is the absence of Life.
Spiritually, it is the absence of God.

God IS LIFE, and GOD GIVES "things/vessels" LIFE FROM Him....and "DEPARTS" Life FROM out of them.

The Extent of YOUR Control over a "LIVING SOUL" that BELONGS to GOD, IS via YOUR CHOICE.

This is why the Second Coming is called the "Blessed Hope" - hope for what?

TRUST, is believing God IS FAITHFUL.
HOPE, is WAITING to "SEE" what thee FAITHFUL God, SAYS "WILL come into fruition".

If we're already in heaven, then what's the big deal?

"WE" in heaven?
....It is already apparent you do not comprehend what "the whole of a man is".

Men DO NOT BEGIN, "WHOLE" from a "natural sperm seed".

Men are MADE to BE "WHOLE", by a mans CHOICE, and Gods Power.

Bodies of terrestrials do not Come down from Heaven, nor do Bodies of Terrestirials, "GO" up to Heaven". Saved souls of men, and Quickened spirits of men, Go to Heaven, WHEN the BODY'S BLOOD LIFE physically DIES......BECAUSE WHILE the BODY is ALIVE ON EARTH, AND FORGIVEN, the body, soul, and spirit of a man are MADE WHOLE....

BECAUSE of the mans CHOICE...
And
BY Gods Power.

But, if we've ceased to exist as the Bible plainly teaches,

No. Scripture teaches God Creates and Makes His Creations Living and Dead.
And Names of the Dead who rejected God, shall be blotted out. And Life of the Dead who rejected God, shall Forever have LIFE Departed from them, And Memory of the Dead who rejected God, Shall Cease, and they Remembered No More.

well, then the resurrection becomes the greatest hope of all humanity.

All of Humanity? Nah!
For a man Who has Become Made WHOLE?
Yes. Because That man Shall Be Raised IN "glory".
For a man, who rejected being Made WHOLE?
I doubt it, Since he shall Be raised TO face Damnation.

That's what annihilation is: total, complete destruction,

It is your election to choose your own words.
Scripture uses the world Destroy, nearly 600 times.

You seem to choose to believe God "annihilates" His Creations, "implying" that (some) of His Creations Become NON-EXISTANT.

I believe God "destroys" (some) of His Creations, that (some) of His Creations BECOME "UN-recognizable" in their original form, and BECOME "UN-VISIBLE" by those WITH God, and "UN-remembered", by God and those WITH God.

which of the wicked "shall leave them neither root nor branch" - a proverb among the Hebrews for complete, total destruction aka annihilation.

And? Am I somehow subject to accepting your understanding of said proverb?

Answer....No.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW of God" -- i.e. "rebellion"

1. God did not create rebellion. He did not create sin. God created "free will".
2. God did create punishment for sin in hell, the lake of fire as we see in Rev 20 - but not because He enjoys suffering.
3. God did create the Gospel - but not because He enjoys being tortured on the cross.


But because God is good, he cannot dismiss sin He will ultimately punish sin.
And because God is good, He cannot grant immortality to sin - He cannot create and sustain "eternal rebellion" rather He ends it.

If God has perfect knowledge, he created sin knowing it would exist.

 

[BobRyan]

If God has perfect knowledge, he created sin knowing it would exist.

You are inserting your own definition of "create". It is like saying that "you created your enemy and their atrocities" by choosing to go to war against them and thus leading them to view innocent civilians as their enemy if those civilians were native to your country. It is not a very useful form of the word "create".

In useful terms -
God created the Gospel and He created a perfect sinless world
- He did not "create Adam's failure" He did not "create cursing God's name" simply because He knew someone would choose to do it.

God never says to Adam or to any wicked person "I created your rebellion" or "I created your wickedness" rather God always blames the wicked for their sin.

 

[Dave L]

You are inserting your own definition of "create". It is like saying that "you created your enemy and their atrocities" by choosing to go to war against them and thus leading them to view innocent civilians as their enemy if those civilians were native to your country. It is not a very useful form of the word "create".

In useful terms -
God created the Gospel and He created a perfect sinless world
- He did not "create Adam's failure" He did not "create cursing God's name" simply because He knew someone would choose to do it.

God never says to Adam or to any wicked person "I created your rebellion" or "I created your wickedness" rather God always blames the wicked for their sin.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

 

[Jun2u]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

When God created the earth He said it is good as per Matthew 19:17.

When sin entered the world the earth was also cursed and became subject to thorns and thistles, like earthquakes, hurricanes, storms, volcanic eruptions, and so forth.

When these things happen there are hundreds and/or thousands that are killed. In this sense it is an evil thing.

Can we blame God because of man's sin? God forbid!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Dave L]

When God created the earth He said it is good as per Matthew 19:17.

When sin entered the world the earth was also cursed and became subject to thorns and thistles, like earthquakes, hurricanes, storms, volcanic eruptions, and so forth.

When these things happen there are hundreds and/or thousands that are killed. In this sense it is an evil thing.

Can we blame God because of man's sin? God forbid!

To God Be The Glory

Did God create man knowing he would sin? If so, God created sin.

 

[BobRyan]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

"calamity" not "evil"
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these. - NASB

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death

 

[BobRyan]

Did God create man knowing he would sin?

Yes.

If so, God created sin.

Did a human create a car knowing that someone would some day be killed by a car? then that human (Car inventor) "killed that person"??.

You are using flawed logic where God is merely the "robot god" -- incapable of the concept of creating beings that have free will. programming them for evil, and rebellion and for taking His own name in vain. Calvinism enjoys that extremely limited model - but it is not in the Bible

 

[Jun2u]

Did God create man knowing he would sin? If so, God created sin.

Indeed He did!!! So what did He do? He provided a salvation program for all those He elected to save, by sacrificing His only Son to die and to redeem their sins before the foundation of the world.

God did not create sin!!! In creation, He created everything good. It is man who sinned. Don’t pass the buck on God. What an Awesome God the true believers serve!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Episkopos]

...a salvation program...hmmm...that's what passes for modern teaching.

But who knows the real salvation of God? In experience?

 

[Dave L]

Indeed He did!!! So what did He do? He provided a salvation program for all those He elected to save, by sacrificing His only Son to die and to redeem their sins before the foundation of the world.

God did not create sin!!! In creation, He created everything good. It is man who sinned. Don’t pass the buck on God. What an Awesome God the true believers serve!

To God Be The Glory

Without sin, God remains unknown.

 

[Jun2u]

Without sin, God remains unknown.

I laughed so hard that tears came down from my eyes. That’s a good one. Thanks for the laugh I needed that.

You see, if sin did not enter into the world God would still have been known by Adam and Eve. Remember, sin ENTERED after Adam and Eve sinned and NOT before creation. So everything was good.

If Adam and Eve did not sin and if they were allowed to procreate, this world would be a happy place (Disneyland?) where there will no sin be (name every evil in the world), and that world would still have the same amount or maybe 8 Billion people, all worshiping and loving God, and all will know who God is. Of course, this is just speculation! But what a wonderful thought.

To God Be The Glory

 

[BobRyan]

Without sin, God remains unknown.

Unknown to whom?

Did Adam claim he never knew God until after the fall?
Did God ever tell Adam that He could not be known without sin?
Where does that idea come from?

 

[Ac28]

Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

In this recording, I review related verses in the Holy Bible (ESV)

Hell is forNever.

 

[BobRyan]

Hell is forNever.

Indeed - no one "recovers" from hell. But it does not mean that hell "never gets the job done" as some have supposed.

In my review of dozens of verses, see my original post, I show that your statements are false. Hell is eternal.

Jude 1:7 Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2: 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot NKJV

6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; NASB

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Dave L]

Unknown to whom?

Did Adam claim he never knew God until after the fall?
Did God ever tell Adam that He could not be known without sin?
Where does that idea come from?

Without sin grace doesn't exist, nor does goodness, or righteousness, mercy, or justice and so on. We only know God because of the contrast sin provides.

 

[Dave L]

I laughed so hard that tears came down from my eyes. That’s a good one. Thanks for the laugh I needed that.

You see, if sin did not enter into the world God would still have been known by Adam and Eve. Remember, sin ENTERED after Adam and Eve sinned and NOT before creation. So everything was good.

If Adam and Eve did not sin and if they were allowed to procreate, this world would be a happy place (Disneyland?) where there will no sin be (name every evil in the world), and that world would still have the same amount or maybe 8 Billion people, all worshiping and loving God, and all will know who God is. Of course, this is just speculation! But what a wonderful thought.

To God Be The Glory

You cannot know God's grace or any of his other attributes apart from sin.