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Featured Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Alert, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    If death is merely a separation from God, God being the only source of life, how can one be alive if thus separated?
     
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  2. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I think you're telling me that their flesh never gets completely consumed either, but it's a bit of a strange concept to me. The corporeal punishment of the living at the hands of tormentors was something Jesus made reference to in parables (Matthew 18:34). And He related what will happen to the wicked when His kingdom comes to what happens to the wicked in the governments of this age. His kingdom will be eternal, and I believe human spirits, including those of the wicked, are eternal as well, so it's hard to relate to a concept of the wicked living "forever" only figuratively.

    But to each his own.
     
  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    1. It is the SECOND DEATH which is eternal separation from God.

    2. With God all things are possible. Hence the damned are conscious yet separated from God eternally, and in torment "day and night, for ever and ever".

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

    And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14).

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

    The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10,11)
     
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  4. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Why? Precisely because the Word of God reveals what IS Life IN and OF a "man".

    Uh huh, a "man" is "CREATED" by Gods Hand BY Forming a "mans" BODY, from Dust.
    What IS the LIFE of that body?
    Blood.
    How do I KNOW?
    Gods Word.
    Gen 9:4

    Uh huh, The Method God brings the FORMED BODY, of the man, into a living state.

    Uh huh, Gods Life, introduced INTO a BODY, "in a soul", that God "MADE".
    Isa 57:16

    Uh huh...
    The "CREATED" FORMED BODY, called man,
    With a "MADE" soul, with LIFE from God, called a Living soul, BREATHED into a man,
    IS now a MAN, who is both a created body and made Alive, via receiving a soul with Gods LIFE.

    Body, created, called man.
    Body with Living soul, and flowing Blood, called a Living man.
    Body without flowing Blood, called a physically dead man.
    Living body, with Living soul, NOT WITH GOD, is called DEAD.
    Saved Living soul IS WITH GOD, whether or not his body is living.

    The body IS a Vessel God has CREATED.
    ....Its LIFE IS BLOOD.
    The soul IS a Vessel God has MADE.
    ....Its LIFE IS GODS BREATH.

    I would suggest to forego the simplicity of Carnal Understanding.

    Scripture IS KNOWLEDGE.
    Mans "understanding" of the Knowledge, formulates in his MIND.
    Gods "understanding" of the Knowledge,
    IS GIVEN to men BY God Himself.

    The KNOWLEDGE is merely a Beginning, and Available for ALL to hear and read.

    It is the UNDERSTANDING "according to God", that IS PARAMOUNT......and ONLY given to he WHO Trusts to Believe, Commit, and Seek His Understanding of His OWN Word.

    This covers ONLY TWO aspects of LIFE, that pertains to a terrestrial man...
    Body....Life BLOOD.
    Soul.....Life GODS BREATH

    There is a Third.....(for some).

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  5. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Yes God IS sovereign and JUST .... and MERCIFUL.

    God provides manKIND a Path to follow...
    Not everyone jumps on the Path at the Same time, nor travel the Path at the same distances.

    Knowledge is one thing, Understanding the Knowledge is another thing.

    As men travel the Path, "their" understanding of Gods TRUTHS "changes", called "increase", called "wisdom".

    Does it make a man A LIAR, because his knowledge and understanding has not reached the same distance as an other?

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  6. Alert

    Alert Member

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    I quoted Episkopos, so I don't know why Enoch111 replied this way.
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but you had a strange comment for one of my posts above.
     
  8. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    Excellent! I copied all 4 posts. I've been an annihilationist for 30 years, when I first read Bullinger. I've gotten to the point where I won't buy a Bible if it contains the word "hell". I can excuse the 1611 AV, because (as I understand it), when the word "hell" and/or "hel"were used to translate hades, the grave, those words simply meant "a covered place", instead of the pagan HELL lies of eternal torment, loved by preachers, world-wide, that brings big bucks in the offering plate. You wouldn't be a Baptist long if you told them you didn't believe in hell (or, for people today, water baptism, the Lord’s Supper, the Lord’s Prayer, the Great Commission, and the rapture, I might add).
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  9. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    Well, being an annihilationist doesn't mean Rev 20:15 won't come to pass.
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like a non sequitur. However Christ was never in Hell but in Sheol/Hades (big difference). Check the Hebrew and Greek texts for these verses.

    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Ps 16:10)
    Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [HADES], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

    And since He rose from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights in Hades, He is now in Heaven, along with all the OT saints, who were in Hades (Abraham's Bosom).
     
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  11. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    Psalms 1:5
    Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

    Of the Bibles on BibleGateway, 35 out of 62, in Revelation 20:15 , say "If anyone is not found written in the book of life", instead of "Whosoever is not found written in the book o life"

    Therefore, it seems very possible that everyone at the white throne judgement (WTJ) will have their name written in the book of life. The only people at the WTJ will be those with no Calling, like Adam, and the malefactor in Lk 23:43 (the comma should be AFTER Today), who Christ promised would be with Him in paradise, when it was established on the New Earth. This will be when the 3rd Heaven (in time), the New Heaven, is made.

    Also, according to Rev 20:12-13, everyone standing at the WTJ seems to be dead. No mentions of anyone alive, 4 mentions of dead. Nekros was the Greek word translated dead in all 4 cases, so I think they are all definitely dead. No one will ever die twice. I don't thoroughly understand the concept of the "second death", but I am 100% positive it has nothing to do with anyone dying twice.

    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
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  12. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus spoke of "hell" ("Gehenna": which means "the valley of hinnom" - the Jerusalem city dump).

    As it was the custom of Jesus, He often directed the attention of those He taught to the scenes around them. In directing their attention to the city dump, Jesus was illustrating what the final destruction would be like - that it would consume everything that can be consumed and leave nothing behind: total and complete destruction.

    The dump site was where the trash, bodies of animals, and even non-Jews were tossed. At the perimeter of the fire where it had not yet reached and consumed, the maggots feasted on the carcasses. Understandably, nobody was running around trying to put the fire out ("where the fire is not quenched") and the maggots continually ravaged the dead carcasses ("worm dieth not") as long as there was still material to burn and eat. Naturally, once there is nothing left to feed the flames or worms, both fire and worm would die out.
     
  13. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    Well he died for our sins, right? Then the punishment has to be the same since he took on that which we deserve. But he did not go to hell. He died. Now, if the penalty of sin is death, then Christ accomplished that. If the penalty for sin is eternal life in continuous torment, then Christ did not pay the price, and we are all going to that horrible place, and indeed Satan won and God failed miserably. As a matter of fact, it matters not where that place is or what it's called. The key requirement is eternally suffering to pay for sin. Christ came nowhere near to that. Therefore, he did not take the place for our sin.
     
  14. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    Anyone that says they have visited hell (or heaven) is either a liar, is deluded by an evil spirit, or is crazy. I see no other possibilities.

    I would believe that there are souls in hell, but for 2 important things.
    1- Man does not HAVE a soul. He IS a soul - Gen 2:7
    2- Hell is non-existent in the Texts and everything about Hell in the Bible is 100% man-made.
    .
     
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  15. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Truth
    That's what destruction is.
    So, you'll agree that in the beginning "God stepped out onto nothing and spoke to nothing, and from nothing came forth everything"...but you cannot allow for the idea that God will blot out from existence everything that bears the mark of the curse of sin along with the wicked?
    Correct, Genesis 2:7 says a "Living Soul" comes into existence as as a consequence of the union of the Body and God's Breath of Life. Ecclesiastes 12:7 is clear that at death, the Body returns to the dust and the Spirit (Breath of Life) returns to God. Concluding that at death our "Soul" flies off from our body to be with God is a total distortion/disregard of no less than two truths: (1) A Soul exists only as a union of the Body and Breath of Life, which at point of dissolution of these two the Soul ceases to exist, and (2) no "Soul" has ever been to heaven, so it cannot fly off from a dead body and "return" to heaven.

    Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
    Body - Breath of Life = Dead (non-existent) Soul

    Light Bulb + Electric Current = Light shines
    Light Bulb - Electric Current = Light ceases to exist
    Does the light continue shining "on another plane of existence, or does it just cease to be? Such is the case with the Living Soul
    A Soul is not something that "enters a Body" - Genesis 2:7 is crystal clear that the Soul is a product/result/consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. Man doesn't "have" a Soul - Man IS a Soul
    Once again, a Living Soul cannot exist except that the Body and the Breath of Life are united. At the dissolution of this union, the Living Soul ceases to exist. Why can't we accept that when a creature - whether a saint, a sinner, or any creature in the animal kingdom - is bereft of the Breath of Life, that Soul dies and ceases to be? This is why the Second Coming is called the "Blessed Hope" - hope for what? If we're already in heaven, then what's the big deal? But, if we've ceased to exist as the Bible plainly teaches, well, then the resurrection becomes the greatest hope of all humanity.
    That's what annihilation is: total, complete destruction, which of the wicked "shall leave them neither root nor branch" - a proverb among the Hebrews for complete, total destruction aka annihilation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  16. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    No, the Bible says the "Living Soul" IS a man...IS a man...IS a man, not a component of man.
    Right, but this proves exactly what?
    The "CREATED" FORMED BODY, called man,
    With a "MADE" soul, with LIFE from God, called a Living soul, BREATHED into a man,
    IS now a MAN, who is both a created body and made Alive, via receiving a soul with Gods LIFE.



    For the purposes of defining what is a Soul - the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 - it is not necessary to emphasize, as you do, the "blood" - the word "Body" is the umbrella term that refers to all physiological aspects of the Body, including the blood. By doing so, you're allowing yourself to get off the plainly charted course that is Genesis 2:7 - that the Living Soul comes into existence and can only exist as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.
    Let's stick with Scripture, shall we? James says a dead man is "the body without the Spirit". That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you: that a Living Soul is the union of the Body and the Breath of Life and a Dead Soul is the dissolution of that union, just as James says.
    Why do you have to keep rearranging Genesis 2:7 when it is already succinct? Yes, the vessel that God creates is the Living Soul, which is the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and that vessel ceases to be when His Spirit is gathered from it back to Him.
    Finally, the monumental error of Christianity is plainly stated here: the belief that the Living Soul and the Breath of Life are one in the same. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
    • "...piercing even to the dividing of the Soul and Spirit, of the joints and marrow..." (just as any joint may be divided of its parts: the bone marrow, ligaments, etc., so the Living Soul may be divided of its parts: God's Spirit and the Breath of Life)
    • Jesus Spirit returned to God, but His Soul "was not left in hell" (it's clear that Jesus' Spirit went up while His Soul went down but "was not left in hell" - the Greek "hades" which means "the grave")
    • "...I pray that your whole Spirit and Soul and Body..." (Paul expressed in his classic poetic style his desire that every aspect of us would be preserved blameless: the whole and its parts - the Soul along with the Body and the Spirit. Much like a parent desiring to be fully and completely understood might say, "Clean the kitchen, the bathrooms, the bedrooms, the whole house".
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

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    Matthew 10:28
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

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    Jude 1:7 Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    2 Peter 2: 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot NKJV

    6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; NASB

    Matthew 10:28
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Why did God create the universe and all that pertains to it, including Hell, if not for his glory? God reveals his glory using sin as the back-drop. Against sin we see his mercy, grace, love, forbearance, and other like attributes. But we also see his sovereignty, goodness and righteousness in punishing sin. God is good because he punishes sin. And he punishes sin according to its weight. Little sin receives less punishment. Infinite sin against him receives infinite (everlasting) punishment.

    But because God is good, he cannot dismiss sin. He would be bad for doing so and not punishing it. In this, God remained good taking his own wrath for sin upon his own self in Christ on the cross. He saved as many paying for their sins as the display of his glory would allow. Had he saved all, sin and punishment would not be the standard of comparison for his glory.
     
  20. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    Those with a Calling will not be in the White Throne Judgment

    THE CALLINGS
    1- The Land (New Earth) - the nation Israel, as per the original promises of God to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and David

    2- The New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and attached to the New Earth - the 12, Abraham, Moses, faithful Israel, the remnant during Acts and other periods, Gentiles grafted into Israel during Acts ---- these are resurrected at the rapture, which is at the second Coming of Christ, at the end of the tribulation, at the 7th and last trump of Revelation. Once they meet Christ in the air, they will return with Him to the earth. They will then be in the Millennium. Finally, when the New Heavens and New Earth are made, they will be in the New Jerusalem.

    3- The Heavenly Places, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ) , Ephesians 2:6 (Us) - the Gentiles of today who have the eyes to SEE, BELIEVE, and CLAIM the Hope of their Calling, found ONLY in Paul's 7 books written after Acts - resurrected directly to Heaven to be there when Christ first appears to His creation, those principalities and powers in Heavenly Places, Ephesians 3:10 , Colossians 3:4 , 1 Timothy 6:14 , Titus 2:13

    For those Called, there are 3 different callings and 3 different resurrections. These will be resurrected in reverse order of how I have listed them above, with maybe 100s of years in between - the last shall be first and the first shall be last. The first Calling in #3 above will probably take place at the end of this 2000 year Gentile period, about 2063, right before Elijah comes to restore ALL things and Israel becomes Ammi, My People, once again. Those that go to Heaven will have their own judgment, at the Appearing, 2 Timothy 4:1 .

    People without a Calling will be in the White Throne Judgment and will end up on the New Earth. Unless people start believing their Bible, this will likely include about 98% of Christendom, those that can't see their true Hope in Eph and Col, because they're blinded by their false doctrine, which is composed almost entirely of things given only to Israel, mainly found in Acts and the Gospels, as erroneously taught by ALL preachers in the Mainstream Denominational Church System, which essentially is a bunch of Jewish synagogues teaching unobtainable Jewish doctrine to unsuspecting Gentiles.

    The only way to avoid all this and obtain the calling to go to Heaven is to obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and rightly divide, Correctly Cut, God's Word of Truth. The Greek word translated "rightly dividing" implies only one cut in God's word is needed. Making the cut between Acts and Ephesians is the only place in the Bible where it is 100% Israel on one side of the cut and 100% Gentiles on the other side of the cut. After cutting, eliminate everything ever given to Israel from your doctrine, except Christ, plus everything about the future you think is directed to you (but, isn't), found in those 59 all-Israel books.

    The only place that tells you what can belong to you, as a Gentile today, and tells you about your possible future and your new church, where you can be part of the actual Body of Christ, in the Highest Heaven, is in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. After studying this for 30 years, I see nothing that was EVER given to Israel, except Christ, that was given also to the Gentiles - Search and See! Israel were the ONLY chosen people for 2000 years, from Gen 12 through the end of Acts. We Gentiles are the ONLY chosen people today, Ephesians 1:4 , since Israel was set aside in Acts of the Apostles 28:28, in about 63AD. As a bonus, if you do RIGHTLY divide God's Word, you will be approved unto God and will have no reason to feel ashamed - 2 Timothy 2:15

    We Gentiles are not Israel. In God's eyes, Israel ceased to exist, as a nation, for disbelief, about 1955 years ago. Since all OT prophecy involves Israel, and since there is no Israel today, no OT prophecy has been fulfilled for 1955 years. We are now in a parenthetical all-Gentile era. We are not attached or associated with Israel in ANY WAY, at the present time. We will be, when God is All in All.

    In a nutshell, those Gentiles today, that are saved, no matter whether they are fundamentalists, traditionalists, Acts9 or Acts 2 dispensationalists, Catholics, Baptists, Preterists, Covenant Theologists, or whatever, but cannot see, believe, and claim the absolute best hope possible, that calls them to the Highest Heaven in Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon, they will end up spending eternity on the New Earth, with a terrestrial body, along with the nation of Israel, who will all accept Christ by that time.

    On the other hand, those that see the hope of their calling in those 7 books and can eliminate all the much more inferior, unobtainable Israel stuff, from their minds and doctrine, will spend eternity, glorified, along with Christ, in the Heaven of Heavens, Heavenly Places, Far Above All Heavens, Glory. Don't miss the boat before you die.

    Outside of the verses involving Deity or those pertaining specifically to YOUR Salvation, the absolute, #1, most important verse in the Bible is 2Tim 2:15. If you don't obey it, you won't go to Heaven. I should mention that the last part of the composite Greek word, orthotomeo, "tomeo", translated as "dividing" in this verse, is used in the words circumcise, circumcised, and circumcision, 40+ times in the NT. A special knife for cutting thin sections of matter in a lab is called a micro-tome. The Strong's definition of "rightly dividing" is: make a straight cut, correctly cut, or correctly dissect. In other words, the verse absolutely means to CUT correctly God's written Word. In the horrible ESV. NIV, NASB, ASV, in this verse, you will find wimpy, milky phrases like, "rightly handling", "handling aright", "accurately handling", or "correctly handles". They are all wrong. They probably thought they would lose money by telling people they had to cut up the Word of God. If it doesn't say dividing, separating, cutting, or dissecting, you're using the wrong Bible,
    2 Timothy 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
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