Here is why, as an Adventist, I believe America is in Trouble.
- Thread starter Brakelite
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No Pre-TB
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The first beast had crowns on the heads: Not any longer - per Rev 13:1, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
The first beast cannot be the horn and the first beast itself. The horns are ON the beast.
Rev 13:2
2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
The 4th Beast has characteristics of the 3 previous beast Kingdoms of Daniel 7 . None of those characteristics is of a man.
Mouth of the lion - Babylon
Feet as a bear - Media-Persia
Like unto a Leopard - Grecian
Those identifiers are never related to any leader of those Kingdoms.
Then you said the women that rides the beast, is also the beast and the little horn all in one? How does the beast devour the flesh of the women, being itself according to you, in order to destroy her, or itself according to you? Does the man of sin kill himself? That doesn't make sense.
This is what @ewq1938 was also explaining to you. The man of sin IS the false prophet. There are very specific traits between the horn with eyes like a man and the false prophet. Not to mention, Daniel 7 specifies the difference between both:
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms
It spells it out, the 4rth beast, of the sea, is a Kingdom.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise
Not the kingdom itself, but they come out of it.
24And another shall rise after them
This is obviously the man of sin that will rule the Kingdom. So what do we learn from those that rule the previous Kingdoms?
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
The Kings that rule these 4 Kingdoms rise out of the earth, not the sea. We have 2 things than:
1. A beast that rises from the sea
2. Beast that rises from the earth
In Revelation 13, we have 1 beast that rises from the sea and 1 beast that rises from the earth.
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
The beast that rises out of the earth is the 4th King that rules the 4th Kingdom and it has (Dan 7) great iron teeth: it devoured (mouth like a lion) and brake in pieces (feet like unto a bear), and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Lastly, they are not the same. 1 is a Kingdom made up of peoples, the other is their ruler.
Rev 19:20
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The beast of the sea and the beast of the earth both taken. Not 1 entity that is both, but the Kingdom made up of its citizens and its figure head.
Sorry, but I have read and gone over this 4 or 5 times and I'm totally confused. You are switching back and forth between Revelation and Daniel, mixing the beasts and their characteristics, and with respect, not making much sense at all. Some things you offer are great, but then you attach those good things to something unrelated and it just causes confusion.
The whole prophetic scenario is actually quite simple. You don't have to overthink it. Daniel 2 provides the framework. Daniel 2 is like Genesis. It is the foundation upon which everything else stands. If the walls and the building contradicts Genesis, your building is dodgy and needs demolition. Same with Daniel 2. Daniel 7 and 8 add detail to the same picture, dealing with the same characters. But if your detail destroys what is already revealed in Daniel 2, you need to start again. It's the same with Daniel 7 and 8. 7 offers more detail, and 8 even more. But if 8 contradicts 7, then somewhere you've gone wrong.
Thing is this. There's enough in those 3 chapters to absolutely identify all the players when comparing the prophecies with history. There are 12 specific criteria regarding the identity of the little horn, all of which can be found in only one candidate. Some of those precise same characteristics are repeated in Revelation 13, which informs us we are looking at the same entity. Further criteria in Revelation adds validation to the previous identification, all of which the reformers recognized. Futurism however, a hermeneutic devised by Jesuits to place that little horn way off into the indefinite future, hides the real culprit within a mist of a 2000 year hole in the prophetic picture as if God either didn't know what was coming, or didn't want to tell us.
Books like Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series, along with their numerous authors and pastors who repeat their ideas, have done untold damage to people's prophetic worldview and locked them into a deception that can lead them into the waiting arms of the Antichrist itself.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Hello brakelite. Sorry you feel confused by what I said. Typing thoughts on an iPhone through a forum is not as good as talking. There isn’t any confusion between the two texts.
In Revelation, two beasts are referred to: The beast of the sea and the beast of the earth. We learn from Daniel 7 what the 2 beasts of Revelation are. Daniel tell’s us the beast of the sea is a kingdom. Not an Antichrist. It also tells us the ruler of that kingdom rises from the earth. The only man to rise from the earth in Revelation is the false prophet. He is the little horn, the 4th king, that mouth of the beast of the sea. Hope that helps
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I see Prophecies as a tool to identify the players in the Cosmic war. Using it as a tool to predict the future plays right into the hand of the soothsayers ....and their snake oil.
No. Sorry, doesn't help. Your first mistake is correctly stating previously that beasts are political entities, not individuals, and then stating the second beast as being an individual.
Second, you are failing to accurately identify the beasts and horns on Daniel 7, you aren't taking into account the specific characteristics of either the term horns, the timing of their rise to power, the historical circumstances for their rise, and the rise of the little horn, it's affect on the other 10, is duration, and the numerous characteristics that identify it. Start there. Don't rely on Revelation when you think Revelation hasn't taken place yet. The seals, the horsemen, the trumpets, the letters to the churches, chapters 12,13, have aspects of prophecy that deal with the same account of history but from different perspectives. You are correct to refer to Daniel to understand Revelation... But understand f Daniel first.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The first outcome in Revelation 13 is the FP. The second person is Satan. The beast is not human at all, but the image come to life. Not that I am pushing a man made ai that becomes self aware. But to say the image produced by Satan is not given fully functioning ability is missing who this third being is. The image is the enforcer, not the one in charge. The FP is the herald, and not the one in charge. Satan is certainly handing out power, and is the only one in charge during the 42 month period ending in the death of the 2 witnesses and God pouring out the 7 vials of wrath on Satan's kingdom.
The beast may look like a Lamb, but certainly talks as Satan, that is just describing Satan's deception when he presents himself to the world. Who knows what Satan will actually look like?
Of course almost as many opinions as there are posters on this chapter. What most seem to not grasp is this is a totally different world, because this is post Second Coming.
Nothing prior to the 6th Seal can apply to Revelation 13, not even Daniel. That is the point of Revelation 13, and Satan pulling a brand new 10 nation government out of the ashes of this new earth. The only nation that seems to remain is Egypt. The kings of the east are not defined. They may or may not be current governments.
If there was no 6th Seal change, John would not have seen a new beast come out of the sea. He could have simply named 10 nations we recognize today, led by the FP as their spokesperson.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
I made a mistake? I see. Well, since I took the info God’s word provided, your issue is not with me. If you fail to see the beast of the sea as the kingdom (Dan 7:23) and the 11th horn that leads this kingdom rises from the earth (Dan 7:17), and both of these are symbols that identify the beast of the sea and earth in Rev 13:1 and Rev 13:11, then I can’t help you. Honestly, your prideful attitude in knowledge over me and what you think you know is really disappointing. I came to you in love to discuss it. You took the high seat when you should have taken the low one. Have a good day sir, we’re done with this discord on this topic.
Because I point out your inconsistency in your approach? Am I immediately to succumb to your perspective without challenge? Am I not correct when I suggested that by using the large number of characteristics given in prophecy, we may accurately identify historically the powers involved? If not, is it our fault or God's? Has God fallen short in the information given, or are we misreading that information?
Honestly, your prideful attitude in knowledge over me and what you think you know is really disappointing. I came to you in love to discuss it. You took the high seat when you should have taken the low one. Have a good day sir, we’re done with this discord on this topic.
My position that I laid out in the beginning, that the reformers had it right when identifying the Antichrist, has yet to be refuted; either biblically, or historically.
America is in trouble. Their churches are apostatizing in their return to Rome, and also in their acceptance of modernist moral standards that ignore scripture. Easy to understand why they are returning to Rome seeing modern protestantism no longer has a true anchor to sustain faith and practise. When Catholics come along and offer them papal authority and hierarchy, and a set standard, Protestantism has no answer because they've abandoned scripture. Evangelicals today, or rather of the last few decades, have abandoned the historicist hermeneutic of the reformers, succumbed to Jesuit lies, and resorted to randomized guess work in predicting the future. Please don't fall into that trap. I sense you are a serious Bible student and earnestly desire to understand the truth. Don't give up so easily because someone happens to disagree with you. I'm open to being challenged. I have no need to be proud or overbearing as the prophecies answer for themselves. Sorry if I came across as such. I think you are definitely on the right track... Moreso than many I've spoken to. Just stay consistent with those symbolic applications.
Beast... Always, a political power (with one exception Revelation 12, albeit that dragon, Satan, did manifest in history as a political power... Pagan Rome) and sometimes with a religious face, be it pagan, or Christian, or apostate. Even that second beast which most agree is the false prophet, is not an individual, but another political power, which through it's legislative authority creates an image to the first beast...a copy... Another union of church and state as that first beast was a prime example. That union is the false prophet. A fallen apostate church, in this case American protestantism, in league with the government, using it's example, influence, and laws, in leading first the USA, and then the world, back into submission to the Papacy.
Remember only recently how The charismatic churches declared the protest over and how everyone should return to Rome? Remember the big Catholic led and inspired marches in Washington a few weeks later?
There's a false Trinity on the horizon. The dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.
Satan, Papal Rome, and apostate American protestantism.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
To answer above: If there is inconsistency, that’s not negative. We should all listen and review each word in the Bible to discern truth. We are all flesh and very capable of making mistakes. Secondly, Id hope you wouldn’t succumb to my perspective at the door but would ponder it and search it out. Id hope everyone would do this on any posters topic. But your attitude and wording was not love. It had not anything to do with a different opinion and everything to do with pride.
As I said, I’m done with this discord. I responded to what I feel are your two main questions. Please leave it at that to avoid this becoming a tit for tat, increasing hostilities. I don’t want that, and I hope you can at least agree with me there. Good luck to you.
ewq1938
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The whole world is in trouble not American specifically.
This is not happening. It is an SDA fantasy.
The FP is an individual person. Everything written about him shows this. Nothing in Rev shows him to not be a singular person.
quietthinker
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ewq1938
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Incorrect. It isn't true. Protestants don't care for the Catholic denomination and don't like the idea of a Pope and are Sola Scriptura which is against Catholic beliefs. It's as false as someone saying SDA's are joining the JW's.
quietthinker
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You focus on the obvious superficial differences yet have missed the underlying core. In other words, you don't know what you don't know.
ewq1938
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That is not the same as Protestants recognizing the RCC as the one true church and/or obeying the Pope's authority. That has been suggested as happening but it is not happening.
ewq1938
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quietthinker
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Herein is ignorance revealed.....and pride in your misinformation......sorry to say.
ewq1938
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Protestantism never fully came out from under papal authority. Protestant churches still obey Catholic traditions that supercede biblical "thus sayeth the Lord".
After 25 years, ‘Evangelicals and Catholics Together’ still matters
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...int-declaration-pope-francis-christian-sweden
Redirect Notice
The following might add a little context and create further thought...
One step towards Rome is a giant leap towards apostasy.
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